1911 Peculiar leading on head-spacing

[dmclark523]

My RIA 1911 has recently been tested out using a 230gn Accurate Mold boolit. (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230C-D.png)

After going through about two mags, my receiver stopped short a couple centimeters from the firing position.
It continued to do so after several more shots so I stopped.
Upon taking the barrel off, I noticed ring of lead in the barrel where the cartridge is head-spaced.

I made sure the casing was flared enough to graciously accept the boolit, but when seating,
I'm still shaving a bit of lead which ends up on the case mouth. I thought of taking a small knife
and gently shaving it off, but I still have this ring of lead and receiver issues after 2 mags.

Any advice? I size to .452, using Lee equipment.

[ultramag]

If you're not seating and crimping in two separate steps that is the first thing I'd try.

[dmclark523]

I seat with one die and crimp with the other. It is two separate steps. Perhaps I would have better luck with a TC bullet instead of a RN?

[375RUGER]

If you're shaving lead during seating then you don't have enough flare.

[detox]

Be sure to chamfer inside case mouth. I size my #2 alloy using .451 sizer because boolit will spring back to .4515 after sizing. What alloy and lube are you using?

[Shiloh]

.452 should do it. What was accuracy like before it stopped running??

Shiloh

[DougGuy]

Do you ever take the barrel out and "plunk" test loaded rounds to see how they chamber? I have a Kahr .45 that will not plunk a .452" no matter what style boolit it is. It also won't go all the way into battery with a .452" boolit. Factory ammo and .451" it will eat til the cows come home. Try the plunk test..

[mpmarty]

When you say receiver do you mean the slide? The receiver is what fits in your hand.

[dmclark523]

If you're shaving lead during seating then you don't have enough flare.

That was my first thought, which is why I really flared the case. I'm sure you realize, however, when an over-flared
case goes into the seating die, the flare is reduced due to the fact that the inside of the sizing die is straight-walled. Essentially, if
the flare is to heavy, it won't engage the seating die correctly.


Be sure to chamfer inside case mouth. I size my #2 alloy using .451 sizer because boolit will spring back to .4515 after sizing. What alloy and lube are you using?

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely give it a chamfer and try again! Alloy is straight wheel-weights, and lube is White Label 50/50. I haven't noticed any springback, and sizing .452 always works great. Not to mention, Tom makes a great mold and it's always spot on!


.452 should do it. What was accuracy like before it stopped running??

Shiloh

Accuracy is great and as far as I can tell, after shooting, cleaning, and shooting about 100 rounds through it, accuracy is great right up until the slide ceases to return to the firing position.


Do you ever take the barrel out and "plunk" test loaded rounds to see how they chamber? I have a Kahr .45 that will not plunk a .452" no matter what style boolit it is. It also won't go all the way into battery with a .452" boolit. Factory ammo and .451" it will eat til the cows come home. Try the plunk test..

Yes I thought of and tried the plunk test today. With noticeable debris and lead on the head-space in the barrel, the plunk test would not work at all. After a simple cleaning (taking a small pick and etching out the lead, I got a nice clean plunk at .452.


When you say receiver do you mean the slide? The receiver is what fits in your hand.

Yes. I'm sorry. I meant slide.

[Char-Gar]

Shaving lead in the seating process should never happen, and I don't know how you are doing that. Just a few thoughts.

1. As long as the belled case will go into the seating die, it is not too much.

2. If you seat in one operation and then taper crimp in another operation, then I don't see how you could shave lead in bullet seating. If you are not doing that, then I can very well see how lead shaving occurs.

[detox]

The boolit in link looks like a gas check design. Why did you go with this mould? Flat Plain base will do fine.

Have you tried this test in picture? Your brass may be too short or chamber too long?

[dmclark523]

Shaving lead in the seating process should never happen, and I don't know how you are doing that. Just a few thoughts.

1. As long as the belled case will go into the seating die, it is not too much.

2. If you seat in one operation and then taper crimp in another operation, then I don't see how you could shave lead in bullet seating. If you are not doing that, then I can very well see how lead shaving occurs.

With the flare that I had, It would not engage the seating die without a lot of pressure. Finally, it *clunked* itself in, but it sounded really unhealthy and made no difference. Still shaving lead. That's why I assumed that the loud clunking sound was the casing giving way and tapering the flare. And again, I seat in one operation and taper crimp in another.

The boolit in link looks like a gas check design. Why did you go with this mould? Flat Plain base will do fine.

Have you tried this test in picture?

The bullet is a gas check design. I was able to achieve good results with plain base molds, but still had some lead smearing.
Gas check design allows for better accuracy in my case, and requires no clean up and/or scrubbing of barrel. Buying great
quality aluminum checks online here only costs $15 for 1K, and to be honest, it's worth it to me.

As for the picture, that is basically the result of the 'plunk' test mentioned earlier. The far right is what my head-spacing is like
with lead on the headspace,and I achieve 'normal headspace' after a good cleaning.

[detox]

Try seating the boolit deeper so that it headspaces on case only (picture#2). Also try water quenching your boolits to make them harder.

[dmclark523]

Try seating the boolit deeper so that it headspaces on case only (picture#2). Also try water quenching your boolits to make them harder.

Thanks for the advice. I do water quench. I find it works best!

[35remington]

Given that many seating dies will also taper crimp (Lee dies do this) make sure the die is backed off such that it is not reducing the case mouth when the bullet is seated. Insert a flared empty case in the shellholder and raise the ram to its topmost position. Thread the die in the press and turn die down to meet the empty case until the case mouth touches the die walls. Now back off a half turn or more.

Now you know you're not reducing the case mouth when the bullet is seated. If the case shaved the bullet upon emerging from the seating die, that was your problem.

You may now taper crimp separately. And correctly.

[dmclark523]

That makes a lot of sense; I'll look into it. Thank you for the advice.

[prs]

I was thinking along the lines described by 35Remmington. It may be OK to partially eliminate the bell while seating, but why risk it? Bell just enough to accept the large body portion of that odd looking bullet (I do not care for the looks of that one at all). Try to get a COAL that plunks nicely and crimps as close as practical to that ogive. I think you would be happier with better boolit design, but what do I know????

prs

[dmclark523]

I was thinking along the lines described by 35Remmington. It may be OK to partially eliminate the bell while seating, but why risk it? Bell just enough to accept the large body portion of that odd looking bullet (I do not care for the looks of that one at all). Try to get a COAL that plunks nicely and crimps as close as practical to that ogive. I think you would be happier with better boolit design, but what do I know????

prs

I am thinking about a different design for sure, but we'll see if we can't make this work yet. So far I'm grouping within an inch and a half at 15 yards using a rest...
Thanks for the advice though... I'm going to look into the seating situation.

[Cmm_3940]

I had the exact same problem you are when I started loading CB in .45ACP. There were two prolems as it turned out.

First, I found the boolits I am using need to be seated quite a bit deeper than the OAL listed in data books for JBs in order to reliably headspace, even with the barrel hood with NO insertion force, headspacing on the case mouth, and no contact between boolit and rifling. (see plunk test, above). Some people like to headspace with the boolit touching the rifling. I don't. See what works best in your gun. Whole 'nother "discussion" there. :wink:

Second, seating and crimping as one operation definitely causes problems with boolits that I never saw when loading JBs. If you do it all at once, the die starts crimping during the last bit of the seating process and you get that little ridge of lead plowed up that you are seeing. It isn't getting shaved from the base. Increasing flare won't fix this.

This is what worked for me: back off the die and seat plug, take a fired case, put it in the ram, and run it up. Tighten the die until it just touches the case. From there, back the die off a FULL TURN and lock in place. Adjust seat plug for correct OAL.

Alternatively, I've heard others say they leave the locking ring in place, remove the die and put a large washer between the die and the toolhead. Haven't tried this variation myself, but I can see where it could save some time adjusting the crimp between batches.

Finally, back off the seat plug and taper crimp as a seperate operation. .468-.470 works well for me.

Hope this helps,

Chris

[Cmm_3940]

The bullet is a gas check design. I was able to achieve good results with plain base molds, but still had some lead smearing.
Gas check design allows for better accuracy in my case, and requires no clean up and/or scrubbing of barrel. Buying great
quality aluminum checks online here only costs $15 for 1K, and to be honest, it's worth it to me.

GC boolits in a 1911? :neutral: If it works for you and you are happy with the results, then great, but it shouldn't be necessary for a low intensity round like .45ACP. What kind of lube are you using?

Chris

[Sensai]

OK, here's the trouble shooter side of me stepping in. First divide the process and see where the problem lies. Look at the round after boolit seating and before crimping (flare removal / taper crimp). If you have the lead shaving then, it has to do with the boolit seating; if not it's related to the crimping. I agree with Detox, you need to chamfer the inside case mouth at any rate. If the problem is crimping related, make sure that the seating plug is removed or at least backed way out on the die that you're using to taper crimp with. If not you could be getting the crimp and additional boolit seating. If this is the problem, be sure to check your seating depth after fixing the crimping issue. The most likely problem is with the crimping, but only a look between seating and crimping will tell for sure. One other recommendation is to try the plunk test without a boolit seated, but with all other steps completed except powder charging, of course. This will tell for sure if you're headspacing on the case mouth or the boolit.

[Char-Gar]

Trying to solve this blind is the hardest way to do it. Post a picture of the bullet, a loaded round and your reloading press and things would be much easier.

[41 mag fan]

Trying to solve this blind is the hardest way to do it. Post a picture of the bullet, a loaded round and your reloading press and things would be much easier.

My thoughts exactly.....you can surmise a thousand things and find out with a picture it was something totally different.

[44MAG#1]

The case is running into the taper crimp lead in the die and turning the flare back in before the bullet is seated all the way. back the die out a turn and see if it goes away or get less.

[462]

Is your seating die a Lee, by chance?

[captaint]

My goodness fellas, were talking about a 45ACP, right?? Certainly no need for straight WW boolits or water quenching anything. Sounds like maybe the throat is cut too sharp in the barrel. We are taper crimping also, right ?? I would also double check loading practices is there's any lead built up by the case mouth after taper crimping or seating. Just my .02. Mike