Lube or alloy problem

[glockky]

Today I shot the first bullets I ever cast. They were lee's 358-158 cast of air cooled clip on wheel weights. The bullets were sized to .358 and lubed with white labels BAC. I was shooting them in my 4" S&W 686. I loaded them over 12.5grains of 2400. Everything seemed good I had no lead in the forcing cone and the ammo was accurate but after just 6 round I had bad leading in the last 1 1/2" of the barrel.

I have shot thousands of commercial cast bullets through the 686 with no leading at all. I am having trouble trying to figure out if I have a lube problem or alloy problem. My cylinders slug at .3575 and my bore is .357. Which direction should I go?

[BBQJOE]

I'm gonna guess lube failure.

[knifemaker]

From what you described I would lean towards a lube problem. Several things bother me, as I have used White label BAC in 41 mag and 44 up to speeds of 1400fps without any leading in the barrel after hundreds of rounds fired using clip on wheel weight alloy with 2% tin added for fillout.
I noticed you used a Lee mold. Most of their molds have very shallow lube grooves compared to other makers and I wonder if that could be a factor. I would first try changing the BAC to White label 2400+ and see if that cures the problem. WL-2400+ does not need a heater same as the BAC.
If that does not cure the problem, try using a harder alloy by adding tin or lino to your mix and see if that cures it.
When you clean the lead out of the barrel, do a check of the area that leads up and make sure you do not have excessive tool marks that may be a culprit.

[glockky]

Guess I am gonna have to figure out how to get a tube of lube out my Lyman 4500. From everything I have read that combo should work. Maybe I can slow them down a little, but I was really wanting a magnum load.

[Larry Gibson]

Not a lube failure, BAC is an excellent lube and I use it on my own revolver bullets including 158 bullets for 38/357s.

You have an alloy and or load failure. Suggest you add 2% tin to the COWWs, recast the bullets and relube with BAC. The .358 sizing is fine.

If your 12.5 gr 2400 load is in 38 SPL cases then switch to 5.5 - 6 gr Unique. If in 357 cases then load 13 - 14 gr 2400 or to max if you want a top end magnum load.

Larry Gibson

[John Boy]

I had no lead in the forcing cone and the ammo was accurate but after just 6 round I had bad leading in the last 1 1/2" of the barrel.The alloy is too hard and the bullet is not obturating in the grooves of the bore

[glockky]

I figured if the bullet was to hard then I would of thought I had leading in the forcing cone area

[HeavyMetal]

My first thought was lube failure, as leading is in the last 1 1/2 inches of barrel.

However one responder mentioned a Lee mold, your not trying to lube a TL ( tumble lube) design are you?

This would be that stupid multi lube mini groove design and, as such, won't hold enough lube no matter what your using!

If you have a standard lube groove design from Lee it still may not hold enough lube to get the job done and you may have to switch lubes or go to another mold.

switching lube is easier, Carnuba Red is my go to lube for everything, but you might consider a different mold if your's is a TL. Strong suggestion here for the RCBS 150 grain SWC 357 mold.

Only available in Dual Cavity this is the best all around 357 boolit available, I have one and never plan to part with it, it is that good!

[glockky]

It's a standard lube groove design. I dread trying to get all the lube out of my sizer

[kartooo]

It's a standard lube groove design. I dread trying to get all the lube out of my sizer

if you have the heating element installed.
i was told to take the die out and just leave the heater on with something under it to catch all the lube.
never tried it myself.

[runfiverun]

I doubt running out of lube is the problem.
it seems you are just not making it past the relaxation point.
are you sure it is leading and not just a grey antimonial wash?
you can make the lube a bit wetter and help the situation by adding an oil or some lanolin.

[glockky]

I am not sure the difference in leading and antimonial wash. Is there anything I can do with my load to assist the lube to working better

[HeavyMetal]

OK went to the Lee web site at the top of the page and looked at 358-158 molds, only have two one is a TL and the other requires a gas check.

Since you said you weren't using a TL design you must be using the GC mold, are you using a gas check?

Lots of room on this boolit for lube so I'm going to ask about the check.

[glockky]

Nope it's not a gas check or tumble lube it's the lee 358-158-RF

[462]

My non-leading experiences with that boolit and a 6 1/2" Blackhawk:
*Alloy of a 2:1 ratio of wheel weights:lead.
*Lubed with a soft, 50/50 mix.
*Your 2400 load, up to its maximum published loads, and maximum published loads of W 296.

My suggestion would be to try a softer alloy.

[glockky]

462 do you think a softer alloy will help with leading towards the end of the barrel. I guess I could see that if I had lead in the forcing cone area

[gray wolf]

My cylinders slug at .3575 and my bore is .357.
The bullets were sized to .358
What did you use to measure the slugs with ? Mic or calipers ?
If your numbers are correct your .358 bullets are being sized down to .3575
cause that's what your cylinder throats are. That means your a .0005 over barrel size. I like to be .001 or .0015 over barrel size. The best you can do is .0005 over.
That's if you measured correctly. This may or may not be the problem, but it may be a contributor.
Have you slugged the first few inches of the barrel at the muzzle and then compared it to a slug driven all the way through the barrel.
Did you measure the store bought bullets ?
Just a few random ideas I thought I would through out there.

[mroliver77]

Is there a definite build up of lead clinging to the sides of the lands or is it just a white or lead color in the barrel with lands looking square and crisp?
I would try upping the charge closer to magnum loads(if .357 cases) and possibly wiping a bit of lube on the exposed noses.
Some (not me) would run a boolit larger than the cylinder mouth and they swear by it.
J

[462]

462 do you think a softer alloy will help with leading towards the end of the barrel. I guess I could see that if I had lead in the forcing cone area

I know that it is contrary to what one would suppose. However, the alloy is the only difference between what doesn't work for you, and what works for me, thus my suggestion. (Well, the Blackhawk has a 2 1/2" longer barrel.)

While I've no experience with White Label lubes, many members use it with excellent results. That makes me go along those who said that the lube is not the problem.

I understand your dilemma and where you are coming from, though. This is where patience is required, as you conduct your experiments. Just remember to make only one change at a time.

[HeavyMetal]

I looked up this mold on the Lee web site, nice design that I don't think should ever lead.

So I'll make a few suggestions on things I'd check on if this was my issue.

First I think I'd look at the how much crimp your using and, more importantly, if it is being completely ironed out upon firing.

A check of fired case's should give you the answers to that.

in either case you need to check that and to see if the case tension is actually shaving the boolit as it is seated, in either case the lube could be scraped from the boolit or the boolit could be undersized when fired.

Next I'd look at the boolit base, if it's not perfect you may be getting a little gas cutting . a problem with base's that are not perfect and a major reason many caster dislike large bevel base boolits.

here's the senario as I see it: base isn't perfect but your using a slow pistol powder load, by the time the powder charge builds enough pressure / temp to override the lube the boolit is half way down the barrel and makes it look like a lube failure!

Suggest taking a good hard look at your as cast boolit base's under a strong magnifiying glass any or all of these suggestions may turn out to be your problem.

[USAFrox]

Are you making sure that your sized bullet isn't being sized even smaller by the case itself when you seat it? You might want to pull a seated bullet and check its diameter, to see if your cases are sizing your bullets smaller in the seating operation. If so, you'd be shooting bullets that are undersized for your bore, which could cause leading. Just a thought.

[glockky]

I looked up this mold on the Lee web site, nice design that I don't think should ever lead.

So I'll make a few suggestions on things I'd check on if this was my issue.

First I think I'd look at the how much crimp your using and, more importantly, if it is being completely ironed out upon firing.

A check of fired case's should give you the answers to that.

in either case you need to check that and to see if the case tension is actually shaving the boolit as it is seated, in either case the lube could be scraped from the boolit or the boolit could be undersized when fired.

Next I'd look at the boolit base, if it's not perfect you may be getting a little gas cutting . a problem with base's that are not perfect and a major reason many caster dislike large bevel base boolits.

here's the senario as I see it: base isn't perfect but your using a slow pistol powder load, by the time the powder charge builds enough pressure / temp to override the lube the boolit is half way down the barrel and makes it look like a lube failure!

Suggest taking a good hard look at your as cast boolit base's under a strong magnifiying glass any or all of these suggestions may turn out to be your problem.

I was crimping them pretty heavy I will back off the crimp and try that today

[Forrest r]

I would also try putting more lube on your already lubed bullets. Size/lube them like you normally would then lube them with lla, jp wax, anything (50/50 crisco/wax) that will get more wax/lube on the bullet. Put it on the sides of the bullet by hand, it doen't matter as long as the bullets are lubed.

Only change/try 1 thing @ a time, it makes it easier to chase down any problem.

[41 mag fan]

I was crimping them pretty heavy I will back off the crimp and try that today

That might be the culprit right there...you're heavy crimp is swaging the boolits down.
Are you crimping with a Lee factory crimp die or using your seater die to seat and crimp at the same time?

[Edubya]

Pull a couple of those loaded boolits and measure them. You're probably over-crimping.

EW

[HollowPoint]

These kinds of post always leave me kind of stumped because I've never used any other kind of lube other than alox in my pistols or rifles. This included velocities from 850-2200 fps. This lube generally came with the cheap molds I started out with.

Initially this was because as a newbie bullet caster I didn't know any better but, once I learned a little more about bullet casting and the various alloys and lubes available I had more choices.

I noticed the OP mentioned he's using stick-on wheel weights. That's what I started casting with at first. I used to get them by the bucket-full for free so that's what I used. The Stick-On wheel weights are close enough to pure lead that in my first casting and shooting sessions, I found that this was the cause of the small amounts of leading I'd get from my 1911.

Once I learned about mixing my alloys I was able to rid myself of any leading in my barrels; provided my bullets were sized correctly.

HollowPoint

[NSP64]

water drop them boolits.
Harder is better when it comes to magnum loads, and less likely to swage down when seating boolit.
If you slug the barrel, does it get harder to push through when you get to the barrel/frame juncture?

[HeavyMetal]

Crimp is very subjective in every pistol but easier to deal with in a revolver round.

In this case, as an experiment, I'd seperate my brass by headstamp and color ( nickel and brass) and then set up a trim to length measurement and then trim them.

I might go as far as not crimping any of the loaded rounds but take my press and crimp die to the range with me and do 6 shot test groups as I applied crimp, taking notes on improvements, or not, as I went.

Casae prep is a huge deal for me but might not be for everyone else, LOL! I do wierd things like ream primer pockets, deburr flash holes trim to length and deburr the inside of the case mouth with Lyman 11 degree tool.

My thought is the case is like a engine block: if you want the best performance you have to have a core worth building on!

When I first started my case prep routine I saw much tighter, and more uniform group size's develop. Nothing earth shattering but real visual changes that could be seen with the naked eye.

I will also suggest a change of powder, if it's available for you: WW 296. Never had much luck with 2400 in my 44 mag, shot well enough just couldn't get over having to shake all the left over powder out of the gun each time I wanted to reload it!

296 burns cleaner, for me, generates good performance and is easy to meter as well.

Hope to see a post soon saying you've figured out you problem

[glockky]

Well after trying a max load of 2400 and a starting load of 2400 with no change I switched to AA#9. A max load of AA#9 left very little leading. I have to cast some more bullets to try some more load development. This is the first time I have ever shot non commercially cast bullets and I have noticed that the leading I get is a lot different that I have ever had before.

The leading is so easily removed. 5 or 6 swipes with bore brush and a dry patch and its all gone. thanks for all the info.

[geargnasher]

You did not have a lube or alloy failure. ACWW and BAC with the loads you used is spot-on, I've shot buckets of WW using similar methods. That alloy takes a week or two to reach full hardness, but should still shoot fine the day you cast it with the loads you were using. What you have is either a loading technique or a gun problem. Read some of the above posts with that in mind to sort it out, it's all been covered, except for thread choke or copper fouling.

Don't clear out your sizer, I guarantee you that's barking up the wrong tree.

Gear

[Harry O]

I have had problems with a lot of Lee moulds. In looking at them closely, I believe that they have two problems designed into them. One is size. Lyman is usually 0.002" or 0.003" over the listed diameter. They size well. Lee is 0.000" to 0.001" over the listed diameter. When sizing them, there are frequently parts of the bullet that are not sized. That means undersized to me and undersized (even part of the bullet) is the kiss of death for cast bullets.

The other problem is lack of lube groove area (since you indicate this is not a tumble lube). The lube grooves in Lee moulds are very shallow when compared to Keith designed moulds. When there is any sizing at all, there is virtually nothing left to fill with lube. Rather than a failure of lube, it sounds like the lube did great until it ran out. Unfortunately, it ran out 1-1/2" from the muzzle.

I do not agree at all that the mix is too hard. You are shooting very near full power .357 Magnum pressures. Straight WW is not good enough for that. At least drop them in water. That is why I went to gas checks for my Magnums. I use gas checks with a Lyman 358156 with just a little more 2400 than you do (13.5gr). I have never had problems with that combination and it is accurate no matter how much I shoot.

[geargnasher]

The lube didn't "run out". That is a very common myth, especially when considering a revolver.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Nothing wrong with the load and the BAC lube did not "run out" as gear said. However all batches of WWs are not created equal. Antimonal wash has become more common with the very low % of tin in WWs the last 20 or so years. Probably why the OP is still getting "very little leading" also. Adding the 2% tin to his "batch" of WWs would have been probably the solution and probably still is.

Larry Gibson