Gas checks VS water hardening.

[like it all]

Having been away from casting for quite awhile, I was recently told that gas checks were old stuff. They mentioned water hardening the bullets after sizing. What the devil is water hardening? How is this accomplished? Does it really work? I'm talking about large bore pistol bullets driven above 1200fps.:cbpour:

[JakeBlanton]

If you are using clip-on wheelweights for your alloy, the bullets will harden more if dropped into water than if they are just cooled in ambient air. If you are using pure lead, it won't make a difference. Here's some more info:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[Tatume]

Water quenching is not a substitute for gas checks. If you need very hard bullets for some reason (such as deep penetration on dangerous game), then water quenching is an option. Water quenching will not prevent leading of the barrel, and in fact may even cause it.

I used to quench 320 grain LFN GC bullets intended for my Freedom Arms 454 Casull and made of pure clip-on wheel weight metal. In penetration tests in tightly bundled, saturated telephone books quenched bullets penetrated 30 inches and air cooled bullets penetrated 26 inches. The quenched bullets showed no expansion whatsoever, and the water cooled bullets were somewhat riveted. The difference was not worth the trouble, and the somewhat softer bullets shot just as well, if not better.

Take care, Tom

[Harry O]

My personal experience (which may be different from others) is that water quenching is not a substitute for gas checks. If a bullet is marginal, hardening might help. If it is totally inadequate, it won't.

I used plain-base bullets from Bhn 6.5 to 15 for loads up to about 20,000 to 22,000psi. This includes most of the handguns I shoot, including the +P loads.

I use gas-check bullets from there to about 35,000 to 37,000psi. Bhn is straight Bhn 15 in them. This includes the Magnum handguns I shoot and some of the rifles (such as the 30 Carbine and 30-40 Krag, if they are not loaded to the max).

Above that pressure, I use jacketed bullets. I have tried water-quenched bullets several times, and I have been able to get them to work on occasion, but they are more trouble than they are worth as far as I am concerned. The hardest one was 70% lead, 15% tin, and 15% antimony water quenched to Bhn 32 to 38 (after about 2-3 weeks). It was very difficult to get to fill out and it was difficult to size and lube. The Bhn varied quite a bit and the accuracy was so-so. Unfortunately, there is not a gas-check bullet for that particular gun.

[leadman]

Arsenic is an important ingredient for hardening found in clip on wheel weights and lead shot. This helps speed up the hardening process and usually in a couple of days the boolits are close to the max they will attain.
I cast alot of boolits, usually 3k or so a week and before I went to the Hi-Tek coating all of them were water quenched. It usually makes a difference in the accuracy of the boolit (improves it) and usually stops the leading. The boolit still has to fit the gun.
There is also the bonus of getting the harder boolit without it becoming brittle.
With the Hi-Tek coating requiring baking 3 times at 375 degrees for 10 minutes it is difficult to maintain a water quenched or heat treated BHN.
I did a test of a 180 gr RFN 38 caliber boolit with and without a gas check. Same gun, power charge, primers, just the GC change. There was no leading with either load but the group size of the GCd boolit was about half the size of the non GCd boolit.

[44man]

I water drop all of my boolits. I use a lot of PB boolits and have taken them to over 55,000 psi with great accuracy.
The GC is needed for softer lead so the boolit will grip the rifling at the base.
Gas checks, hard, soft and any other thing you can think of does not promote, stop or cause leading. Leading is ALWAYS something else because you are out of balance.
Water dropping is so easy and nothing else makes casting easier. Open the mold and dropping into a 5 gal bucket of water is a lot less work then moving boolits on a rag.
You will have a hard time telling me water dropped will cause leading.

[samwithacolt]

I water drop my .40 pistol boollits and my .312 sks boollits, not my pure lead .38-55 as I want them soft.
I just shot a 100yd/12" group today with the 8mm lee boolit in my .32 winchester special. I'll be surprised if the group does'nt shrink when my gas checks show up(ordered them after the mold).
I think it makes more difference if the boolit is plain base versus a gas check design with no gas check. I have read where guys here have removed the gas check band to make the mold PB.

[runfiverun]

I water drop all of my boolits. I use a lot of PB boolits and have taken them to over 55,000 psi with great accuracy.
The GC is needed for softer lead so the boolit will grip the rifling at the base.
Gas checks, hard, soft and any other thing you can think of does not promote, stop or cause leading. Leading is ALWAYS something else because you are out of balance.
Water dropping is so easy and nothing else makes casting easier. Open the mold and dropping into a 5 gal bucket of water is a lot less work then moving boolits on a rag.
You will have a hard time telling me water dropped will cause leading.

this is closer to my experience..
water dropping does other things besides just hardening a boolit.
it takes time for everything to settle down when water dropped a batch can be all over the map as far as outer hardness for the first few months and the more antimony and tin involved the more variance involved.
a low tin low antimony boolit will respond to water dropping nicely but it will take time for everything to settle down and become consistent.

are gas checks necessary?
sometimes.... it depends on your goals and what you want the boolit to do when it gets there.
if you are going straight in for H-110 or a bit slower powder and full max velocity and don't care about accuracy too much or taking the time needed to measure things.
then yeah go ahead and make e'm hard and slap a gas check on the base.
if you require the boolit to do something besides plow dirt behind the target then you gotta take into account the alloy and you might just want a gas check to help with velocity/acuracy.
you might be able to spend some time measuring the gun and your cases and spend some time at the 3 benches and not need gas checks to get the desired results.
it's quite possible to do so in several revolvers at the 12-1500 fps zone without leading nor loss of accuracy.

[Lead Fred]

I water drop everything I cast.

Only gas check the ones that call for it.

After pushing 405 gr RN out a 45/70 with zero leading @ 1750fps. Im darn sure it works

[mroliver77]

For me lead is easier to find than lead alloys with tin and antimony. I have a bunch of range scrap that works great for handgun but needs to be harder for magnum or rifle loads. Water dropping from the mold hardens it considerably. Oven heating and water dropping gets maximum hardening.
As has been said using less antimony gives a less brittle boolit but a softer one. Water dropping makes it harder but it is still malleable.
You will find differing opinions on this. It is like Ford vs Chevy to me.
Most of us here run cast boolits with no gas check to .44 mag maximum loads and then some.
J

[44man]

I do have a lot of molds that use GC's and I use them for a rifle, however the 45-70 has not needed them. All the molds I made for the revolvers, .45, 45-70, 475 and .500 JRH are PB. They have worked in the .454 and .500 S&W also.
Now there is a problem if I want a softer boolit for deer so the best is to cast a soft nose, water drop to harden the base.
I get some skid on the front portion of the boolits but it stops at the base and still seals the bore.
Once base skid opens the grooves, then a GC is needed. Or a harder alloy can extend the PB use.
Some GC boolits can be shot without the check and others can't. It has to be tested. My 30-30 TC shot cast good enough to hit pennies at 100 yards but leaving the check off made boolits hit sideways at 50 because it changed the drive length to what the rifling could not use. Recovered boolits showed no skid.

[like it all]

I really appreciate the feed back fellas. I think I'll save the water hardening for my designs that don't take a gas check and show signs of leading. The wheel weight metal with added monotype has been working well for all the autoloader bullets, but my 40S&W 's are all under 1000fps. The other question I had was about bullet lubes. I'm still using Javalina, smoke ,smell, and all. It still seems to work, but is very dirty for autoloaders, wheel guns don't seem to care. As I don't cast rifle bullets, all my loads are under 45,000.
I did have some bad performance problems back in the early 70's with pure Linotype 45 colt bullets. My brother -in law and I came into several hundred pound of linotype at bargain prices in 1973 due to a printshop going chapter 11. I started casting all my sillouette bullets out of pure linotype. I was driving a Lyman 452424 at 1200+, no leading, cases showed no excess pressure. With paper targets they worked great. Comes the first match though and I shot an 11, targets were getting hit, but not falling. The bullets were frangible, blowing to pieces when they hit the metal targets and not imparting any of the energy to them. There is a limit to how far you can go with hardness.

[bangerjim]

I water drop everything..........not for the hardness.........but to save burned fingers! It only took a couple times picking up a fresly minted slug (after I THOUGHT it was cool) to inspect it to learn lead cools very v--e---r-----y slowly in the air! :violin:

Now I can pick 'em up right away and check out the cast. If bad, I just dry 'em off with a rag and drop 'em back in the pot. And no..... I have never had any problems with the fairy doing that. So please, no comments!!! :bigsmyl2:

bangerjim

[44man]

Too hard is brittle and not needed, good metal to alloy with. You only need an alloy that stops skid at the base. Plain WW's do it for me.

[like it all]

OK guys, I'm going to try this water quenching on my next batch of 200 gr 451 rfs. The idea of handling new bullets right after casting sold me. So just hit the sprue plate and dump them in water? Does running them through a lubesizer change anything?

[JakeBlanton]

With water dropped, you have to dry them before lubing and loading them, but that can be expedited with one of the "cage" fans blowing across them. When air cooled, you can lube them as soon as you can hold them if you so desire. Not sure if water dropping is any cooler once you factor in the dry vs cooling time, but I still water drop them. I prefer to have less hot things sitting around that I can burn myself on if at all possible. Besides, the drying time is done overnight and I don't factor that in, so for me, I don't count it.

[AKbushman49]

You and I are same boat, been away from casting for a while, however, when it's done right the system does work, just make sure your alloy is correct. Mine was 50/50 old WW and mil spec lead cable sheath, with 1 oz magnum lead shot, (needs the arsenic as a catalyst) per 20 lb pot. The bullets were NEI 411.225 JDJ, NEI 429.320 JDJ Plain Base Bullets as dropped BHN 8.5, then water dropped into 5 Gal bucket. Once dry they were lubed (LBT Blue), cause if I waited a day or two they'd be BHN of 15-16, real hard on my sizer. Out of my Bisley's they were clocked at (41 cal)1345 fps, and (44 cal)1275 fps, extremely accurate, no leading. And when I was up to snuff 4"@100yds Bench Rest. Got most of my info from V. Smith's book.

[TXGunNut]

I use gas checks but don't water drop. If I want heat treatment I use my oven and a bucket of water. I think the time between the pour and water quenching is critical and I don't feel I am consistent enough in my pace to get consistent results. I like the idea of getting those hot boolits off my work area but I also like to add the rejects and sprues back into the pot along with ingots when it gets low.
This time around I'm trying ACWW, one less step in the process.

[44man]

I have oven hardened 50-50 WW and pure, shot real good with only a few fliers but they still blew the exit shoulder of a deer to mush, seems hardening them did not affect the ductile properties.

[youngda9]

I'm not sure where the extra diffaculty in water dropping is that several people allude to. I simply have a colander at the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket filled with water. Drop the bullets from the mold down into the water. When I'm done casting I take out the colander of boolits and dump them out on a rag to dry overnight. The next day I can check/size/lube as I like.

I've never cast and then waited to air cool to the size/check/lube same day. Hot boolits take a long time to cool...and I like my fingerprints.

[1Shirt]

I water drop everything, but only as a matter on convenience!
1Shirt!

[Whiterabbit]

I water drop all of my boolits. I use a lot of PB boolits and have taken them to over 55,000 psi with great accuracy.
The GC is needed for softer lead so the boolit will grip the rifling at the base.
Gas checks, hard, soft and any other thing you can think of does not promote, stop or cause leading. Leading is ALWAYS something else because you are out of balance.
Water dropping is so easy and nothing else makes casting easier. Open the mold and dropping into a 5 gal bucket of water is a lot less work then moving boolits on a rag.
You will have a hard time telling me water dropped will cause leading.

Shockingly, this is closer to my experience as well, as it is counter to most of conventional forum wisdom. I only bother to water drop bullets that I sweeten with magnum lead shot (for arsenic) and they come out HARD! I have to wait an extra moment to cool in the mold before dropping or else they will warp on me. Sometimes the warpage is quite severe.

I also aircool some heavy for caliber 45's and shoot them from a 460S&W pistol using H110 and they leave nothing more than an antimony wash in the barrel. No gas check, but the driving bands are so ridiculously large, paheps there is no engraving issue.

And at the same token, I will cast soft lead bullets in 7mm with a gas check and LLA tumble lube and shoot them from a 7x57. Forum wisdom would tell me that's a disaster waiting to happen, but it's my cleanest and most accurate cast load. Bar none. Can't explain it, but I dont have to explain or understand it to shoot it and enjoy it.

[MtGun44]

Lots of folks say it is easier to water drop. I hate hauling a bucket of water around,
splashing and wet boolits. Got over wanting to handle them bare handed immediately
a long time ago, and cast with gloves, so a quick touch is OK.

Not "correcting" anyone, just saying that for me - water is a PITA, don't want it around
to spill, splash and generally make a mess. I have tried to find accy improvements with
hardened boolits in .44 mag and have never had a single group that was better with
the only change being hardened boolits. I get 2" at 50 yds from my .44s if I can hold
that well, don't expect more from pistols. All tests to date have been the same or
worse accy with harder, can't find any magic.

For rifles - not nearly enough experience to even have any valid opinion, but I will
definitely try hardened for rifles as one of my variables - just have to find time, too
much other stuff getting in the way of experimenting lately. I have had some
pretty nice groups with air cooled wwts with GC designs in .45 -70 (1.2" at 100) and
1750 fps loads. With 7x57 and ligher loads like 16 -18 gr 2400, same thing, air
cooled wwts with GCs works fine, and a few other tries in 7.5 Swiss and others
have the same. Not yet tried to push rifles at all to higher velocities, still learning
there.

As far as I can tell, no need to have any harder than air cooled wwts with any of the
ordinary magnum pistols - right up to max loads in .44 and .357 mag. No idea about
any of the supermags like .454 Casul, never had one or really wanted one.

Just another viewpoint.

Bill

[Shuz]

Interesting thread! One of the posters asked if sizing alters anything after water quenching. I've not tried to prove it one way or the other, but a well known metallurgist by the name of Dennis Marshall says that it does. His claim is that sizing a boolit "work softens" the surface of the alloy that we maybe are trying to make harder, by water quenching. Instead of water dropping boolits from the mould, he suggests that the boolits are cast and then sized and then heat treated in an oven. He maintains that batch hardness is much more consistent boolit to booliit because they are all quenched at the same temperature, and not subject to the variety of "drop times" we have all experienced when trying to quench while casting. Of course the big caveat with the oven heat treating method is that if you size and and then heat treat, then you have to lube the boolit in a separate operation. Since I'm no metallurgist, nor do I play one on TV, I follow Dennis Marshall's advice and size and then heat treat and then lube. I have shot quite a few 5 shot groups with the .250 Sav that measure less than 1/2" at 100 yards using this method. YMMV.

[MtGun44]

Work softening is real, but I would think that since hardening takes some
time, if you cast and then size, your hardening happens after the sizing.

Bill

[runfiverun]

definately wanna size asap after water dropping.
i don't usually wait more than a couple of days, and then just set the finished product to the side and let them cure.
i generally like to wait 6 months before loading them. [this is for my rifles]
the only one i change up is for my 22's and i use the slightly harder alloy i use for my supermags and waterdrop them too.
i do waterdrop my plain base boolits for the higher velocity supermags and also use gas checks on others with a slightly harder than ww alloy.
for the stuff like 357,44 mag, etc i just air cool the same ww alloy and go with it, i have been able to push them to 1650 fps across the board easy enough so i don't get too worked up about it.

[dromia]

I don't water drop now as I find it adds nothing to my rifle loads as regards accuracy preferring to get the right alloy for the application/velocity.

As has already been said I find faffing about with water, splashing, drying all that a bit of a chew on as well.

Gas checks I use as necessary and fit as a matter of course for loads over 1600 fps, just my chosen point based on experience once I get above that in most combinations gas checks help with accuracy. Sometimes I have to fit them to subsonic loads as well, no obvious reason, just that particular rifle and boolit combination seems to prefer the gas check fitted.

Cast boolits are definitely in touch with their feminine side.

[like it all]

Ok guys, I tried the water quenching on my last batch of 200gr 451 RF. Took a little getting used to hearing those little devils hiss at me when they hit the water. I guess it takes a little getting used to it, after all, a lot of us old timers were taught water and molten lead were deadly enemies and not to be near each other. Was able to lube/size them this AM, I'll try them on top of 6.5-9.5 grs of unique at range test Friday. I may try that oven thing next after sizing, then lube . Did appreciate handling dead cold bullets seconds after casting though, this may become SOP. Next batch will be old Lyman 454424, need about 1000 rds. In a hot arid climate like interior California, just lay them on an old terry cloth towel in the sun and presto they are dry and ready to lube/size. Thanks again for all the input.:bigsmyl2:

[Echd]

I water drop so that I can handle the boolits quicker.

Don't care about hardness/softness very much. Odds are if you're getting leading it has more to do with fit than hardness.

[trapbreak]

I shoot a 358 245 grain gas cecked bullet to 2100ft/sec without leading and with excellent accuracy. The procedure I use is cast from an alloy of 15 parts wheel weights to 3 parts Linotype and air drop. The bullets are then sized and gas checked while still relatively soft without lube . Then I oven harden for one hour at 450 degrees and quench. Then when fully dried I put them back through the sizer, this time with lube. Sine they had previously been sized it doesn't stress the bullet or my sizer to run them back through the sizer again. Then they sit for a week to finish hardening before loading. The bullets come out at about 22-25 Brinell after aging.
I played with velocities to find the sweet spot and found they could be pushed quite fast without loss of accuracy or leading.

[Green Lizzard]

i just started water dropping about a year ago, but for a different reason than most and that is to stretch my wheel weight supply. i can mix in 50 to 75% lead and wd back to bhn 18-20. i just set a old pan on the bench about 3 feet away from the pot (yes i know the fairy) strike off the spru onto an an old towel and drop them in the pan. i also have an old toaster oven out in the shop that i heat treat with. accuracy and leading issues are the the same or better than before

[trapbreak]

i just started water dropping about a year ago, but for a different reason than most and that is to stretch my wheel weight supply. i can mix in 50 to 75% lead and wd back to bhn 18-20. i just set a old pan on the bench about 3 feet away from the pot (yes i know the fairy) strike off the spru onto an an old towel and drop them in the pan. i also have an old toaster oven out in the shop that i heat treat with. accuracy and leading issues are the the same or better than before

green Lizzard - If you heat treat in an oven later, why water drop the bullets? Oven hardening takes the bullets back to dead soft, nearly slumping before the quench, then the hardening after the oven quench does the job of hardening.

[detox]

LBT TIPS ON SELECTING A BULLET STYLE

GASCHECK OR PLAINBASE? – We recommend gas checks without reservation under the following conditions:

If velocities will exceed 1400 to 1600 fps, or estimated chamber pressure will exceed about 35,000/40,000 psi.

For velocities over 1000 fps if shooting sequence will be rapid enough to heat the barrel till uncomfortable for the hands, and especially so if atmosphere temperatures will exceed 90 deg F.

In revolvers with notably misaligned cylinder throats.

In almost all new handguns which haven’t had the bore smoothed by lapping. (Extensive jacketed bullets use helps smooth a little.)

For anyone who shoots so little that GC cost isn’t a concern, and especially so for beginners with loading cast bullets.

Whenever optimum accuracy, and, or, ease of load development takes precedence over slight higher cost and production effort.

When desirable to use one bullet and load in several guns of the same caliber

[Green Lizzard]

trap
its not and its either or. and i dont go to the slump stage when i do. i size them, take them to 400 for an hour then quench. they start out at 8 to 10 bhn after quenching and waiting 24 hrs they run 18 to 20 bhn

[Old Dawg]

I heat treat everything, pistol, rifle, RB, buckshot. The harder bullets are less likely to be damaged/deformed during handling, seating, packaging, loaded etc.

I believe the most important way to avoid leading is loading the bullets straight so they enter the barrel straight and making sure they are plenty large to fill the grooves without needing to be 'bumped up'. Depending on a bullet to 'bump up' is a remnant of muzzle loading when it was the only way to be sure the bullet was a tight fit. With breech loaders make the bullet larger than the groove to start with.