Headspace and recoil

[blackthorn]

I recently had a fellow tell me that his father reduced the recoil (kick) in his rifle by reducing the headspace. The process described involved removing the barrel and cutting off sufficient steel to remove headspace when it was reinstalled. I can accept that headspace could be eliminated this way but how would this reduce or eliminate recoil? Or would it? Inquiring minds want to know.

[danski26]

Newton says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the action, "projectile and velocity" are the same, the reaction, "recoil" is the same. Would "shortening" the headspace reduce the action "projectile and velocity?" No.......All other things being equal, a tighter chamber will cause higher pressures and higher velocity. Higher velocity "action" higher recoil "reaction".

An example is a Palma 308win chamber will give slightly higher chamber pressures than a commercial 308win chamber because of the "tighter" chamber.

[Stevejet]

Why don't manufacturers do that to their rifles? Recoil is the product of the cartridge and a "no headspace or reduced dimension" would probably raise pressures, I would think, if the bullet was right up into the rifling when chambered. Opinion only, but reloading manuals tell you that some "leade" is necessary to get the bullet started and to avoid pressure spikes. (?)

[Bass Ackward]

Aaaaaaaaaaaa .... with guns you never want to say never, but I will say it now. No.

[monadnock#5]

There was an article in a magazine years ago (G&A?) where the author made a scientific evaluation as to whether magnaporting actually did anything to reduce recoil. The short answer was yes, but the reduction was so small that it was barely measurable. The author was quick to point out however, that if YOU think magnaporting greatly reduces recoil, and is worth the time and money, go with it. Under certain circumstances, perception beats reality hands down.

If this fellow's father swears by his recoil reduction method, who am I to argue. YMMV however.

[felix]

Mass of the powder changing directions would be the only contributer to recoil reduction. Think of how a jet engine itself can be made to brake the plane, or where the hole in the balloon (engine) is located in terms of the balloon (engine) flying in circles. ... felix

[trk]

Measured recoil vs perceived recoil.

My car runs faster after I've waxed it too. :0 Every time!

[mag_01]

:coffee: Monadnock5 ---- Lot of truth in what you have said --- Perception beats reality hands down --- You can take that to the bank -- Mag


Believe in a load --- and disbelieve another load ---- compare targets -- both loads are capable of driving tacks.

Reduced head-space dose improve accuracy --- will it reduce recoil maybe --- maybe not

:castmine:

[RayinNH]

trk, mine does too.:-D Actually it's vacuuming out the two pounds of gravel that allows this extra speed to happen...Ray

[Pepe Ray]

--RayinNH--
"Actually it's vacuuming out the two pounds of gravel that allows this extra speed to happen...Ray "
So that's why my fuel consumption's been goin' up!!!
Pepe Ray

[Bent Ramrod]

Certainly a difference in perceived recoil would be felt as more recoil. Fire a .35 Remington cartridge in a Marlin lever action and then fire another in a Model 8 Remington autoloader. The delayed action of the latter gun appears to multiply the recoil to a level approaching a .30-06, when actually, it's just protracted for long enough so you aren't mentally expecting the rest of it.

That being said, however, if the headspace is great enough so the movement of the shell head to the face of the breech is protracted enough to change the feeling of the apparent recoil, I would guess the headspace would be excessive for safety.

[The Double D]

I recently had a fellow tell me that his father reduced the recoil (kick) in his rifle by reducing the headspace. The process described involved removing the barrel and cutting off sufficient steel to remove headspace when it was reinstalled. I can accept that headspace could be eliminated this way but how would this reduce or eliminate recoil? Or would it? Inquiring minds want to know.

The other guys are much to polite---one doesn't have anything to do with the other and it is laughable.

[leftiye]

Magnaporting- It's not just percieved recoil reduction, It's less recoil felt-even if recoil wasn't reduced materially. The ports reduce muzzle rise, and the stock bruises your cheekbone AND knocks you silly less.

[waksupi]

The other guys are much to polite---one doesn't have anything to do with the other and it is laughable.

So much so, I didn't think he was serious!
[smilie=s:

[blackthorn]

Thanks to all, that is about what I thought but I did not bother arguing with him as he believes and there is no advantage to chucking rocks at the memory he holds of his father's abilities.

[Char-Gar]

Well now... When I read this thread, the first thing that came to my mind was the Williams "floating piston". A short stroke piston operated by recoil or gas that came back fast and did the work of operating the action of a autoloading firearm. The M1 Carbine is the prime example. A Williams type floating piston did the job of operating a full size 1911 pistol with the recoil of a blow back 22 LR. This was how the first 22 Conversion units worked on for the 1911 pistol. The recoil was not much different from that of the 45 ACP round.

It is a stretch, but if a cartride case came back out of the chamber, it could act like a piston. The longer the travel, the harder the hit on the breech face. The harder the hit on the breech face, the greated the felt recoil.

I agree it is probably just perception, but the notion is not something to be dismissed out of hand.

[grumpy one]

Chargar, I had an early 1911 Colt with one of those Ace conversions that included the "recoil amplifier". Yes, it worked the heavy 1911-style slide very well, and the reaction from the case-head of a 22 rimfire probably would not have done so. However I did not feel or see any signs of more recoil than any other heavy 22 pistol. I don't believe instrumentation would have shown any more recoil either. The bullet left the barrel with a certain amount of momentum, and the pistol recoiled with an identical amount of momentum. The pulse-width of the recoil impulse may have been slightly reshaped by the little recoil amplifier's tiny fraction of an ounce moving backward less than an eighth of an inch, but I couldn't feel it.

Having said all that, I did find the Colt 1911 with the Ace conversion a much nicer 22 pistol to shoot, than the Cold Woodsman I had at the same time. It's bulk and heft made it more pointable, it had much better sights, and it didn't leap around as much when fired, due to its greater mass.

[TAWILDCATT]

my take is he shortened the barrel and shortened the chamber,you havent much head space and the cartridge might not chamber. it would be a bad situation as very high pressure does not give much push when it blows up.:coffee::Fire::coffee:

[AZ-Stew]

I wrote this after I quit laughing.

My take is similar to that of TAWILDCATT. Just how much can you reduce headspace before MOST ammo won't chamber? If there is so much headspace as to "cause" excessive recoil to begin with, doesn't that condition constitute excessive headspace, as well?

It would be an awful lot of work to remove a barrel, turn some of the shoulder off using a lathe, replace the barrel, check for headspace to be sure that you can still load standard ammo, etc., that I can't imagine anyone seriously thinking about this unless the rifle had already been checked and found to have grossly excessive headspace, to the point where simply firing it was a dangerous undertaking. The distance the cartridge base can move during firing is only a couple of thousandths of an inch. Most of the forward portion of the case is tightly held against the chamber walls by chanber presssure during firing and can't move. The mass of the cartridge head moving such a short distance before being stopped by the breech face would create such a small "shock wave", that I doubt even good instrumentation could detect it and distinctly segregate it from the variations in recoil that occur just due to the shot-to-shot variations in ammo.

It would be MUCH easier to fire a few rounds, then set up one's reloading dies to resize without setting the shoulder back on the sized cartridge, thus reducing headspace to almost exactly zero, assuming this even worked at all.

The other seems like having your wife grab the lightbulb while you turn the house to change the burnt out porch light.

Regards,

Stew

[FISH4BUGS]

Measured recoil vs perceived recoil.

My car runs faster after I've waxed it too. :0 Every time!

I drive a diesel Mercedes with 200k+ miles on it, and I can tell you without a doubt that the engine idles smoother after I wax it!
Funny what the mind does to us...............