A little disappointment in the quality of some "instructors"

[Alan in Vermont]

Yesterday my wife and I took our granddaughter to the Youth Hunter Education Challenge at one of our F&G Dept. conservation camp sites.

There were two firearm events, one a fairly casual clay target shotgun session, the other 22 rimfire bullseye shooting.

I'm 99% sure the "instructors" (using that term loosely) were NRA qualified hunter safety or firearms instructors. That being the case I was suitably unimpressed by their abilities.

They had several 20 ga. shotguns, two autos, at least one, maybe two pumps, all youth models, and one adult Ruger Red Label. They demonstrated proper handling and stressed muzzle control but advocated carrying the guns muzzle up. To me that is a very uncomfortable manner to carry a firearm and I noticed some of the kids struggled with it. OK, so it works, after a fashion.

Where it got sketchy, as far as the instructors having a clue was when one of them was trying to show/help one of the kids load one of the autos (Rem 1100 or whatever the current model like that is) with the muzzle up when he was at the shooting position. The guy tried repeatedly to put the round in the ejection port and push it into the chamber with his finger. As soon as he removed his finger the shell would fall out on the ground. After several tries one of the other instructors had to show the first one how to drop it in the port and hit the action release. The next kid in turn came up with the same gun and asked the instructor what type of action it was and the guy told him it was a pump. RIGHT!!!

Later I observed one relay at the 22 range. Nice range covered firing points and gallery, no blue sky anywhere, even a covered berm to keep the rain from washing any of the demon lead down to the nearby lake. Neither of the instructors I talked with had any idea what distance they were shooting. It looked like 50 ft to me. I got answers of 20 yds and 17 yds so they were close but apparently never got curious enough to even pace it off when they went downrange.

There are decent benches with proper cutouts for both left and right hand shooters. One of the kids was a lefty, they gave him a left hand rifle but sat him down at a right hand bench position, the poor boy looked terribly uncomfortable trying to shoot that way.

My granddaughter (Elisha) was in the relay I was watching and I know she's pretty good with a rifle. These were mostly, if not all, Savage bolt action single shots, most of them youth models, at least two adult sized. They started out by shooting "sighters" on 8" Shoot-n-See targets. Low quality iron sights, black front bead against a big black target, I guess nobody ever heard of aim small, miss small.

The rifle Elisha drew was shooting high and right, several of the others were similarly off in one direction or another. I asked if they had made any attempt to zero the rifles and got some muttered statement that they "weren't allowed to do that". Not allowed to adjust the freakin sights before they put the gun on the rack? Maybe there is something in the policies about not making "modifications" to the guns, but to adjust the sights?

I have taught Elisha to shoot for group, then we can adjust the sights to put the group where you want it. Some of the kids knew to do that, some tried to hold off and shoot for center. It's hard for 10-12 yr olds to do that and it showed.

After the sighters were fired on they shot a second target. After they took the targets down Elisha brought hers over to show me. Not bad but she had shot better two days before when we went out on the 25 yd range with the family 22 single. But, she was shooting with her elbow on the bench, everybody else was trying to shoot off those three lobed, multiple stepped MTM plastic rests. Anyhow, she did pretty darn good for an unfamiliar gun.

They put up new targets and while they were downrange one of the instructors came over to me and asked if that was my granddaughter and commented that she had held a pretty good pattern. At which point I agreed with him that it was but shotguns shoot patterns, rifles shoot GROUPS. I got a deer in the headlights look for that.

While the kids were shooting their third string the same instructor asked me and another observer if we would mind filling some loading blocks they were using on the benches. We went over and he warned us to wash our hands after we finished because "You'll have lead all over your fingers". Gotta keep that lead scare going even of you don't have a clue.

I got another of those looks when I asked where, from a copper plated bullet and a brass case, I was going to get lead "all over" anything.

When the kids finished they were instructed to go to the main building and wash their hands really good because there was dangerous lead on them after shooting. They fired 30 rds each, in an open sided building with a 10-15 mph wind blowing from behind them but I'm sure this comes straight out of a book written by a safety committee in the Land of La-La.

I've seen some good instructors but I saw nothing but mediocrity in the group that was involved in these two events. This event was being promoted as sort of an example of a great program and overall it was as the kids all seemed to have a great time. But when you advocate firearms safety and the enjoyment of the shooting sports it seems like if you're teaching something you could at least have truly qualified instructors, not just ones who took a class one time.

[aspangler]

I think those "instructors" need some instruction themselves. They wouldn't Last ten minutes in one of MY classes.

[knifemaker]

I was a certified law enforcement firearms instructor in pistol, rifle, and shotgun and besides training officers, we also had "Lady day shoots" to train women in firearm use and laws to prepare them for using a firearm in home defense and obtaining a concealed firearms permit.
I have also been to events that were put on for juveniles in hunter safety training and most of the time the instructors were citizen volunteers doing the training. Some were very good, some were not that good. Maybe you need to think about volunteering for the event and might be able to impart some of your knowledge for the kids.

[Boyscout]

I took hunter's safety in California back in the 80's where an instructor recommended bird shot in handguns for self-defense. It got worse at the range. At about 20 yards, I shot a group of 10 shots with an unfamiliar rifle about 2 inches high and right, the group was about a 1/4". They had to have a discussion about whether to fail me or not.

[Lead Fred]

Just be thankful they haven't started importing them from China, like everything else.

[merlin101]

I kinda hate to bring this up but do you know where they got the "instructors"? If its like most kid groups (scouts 4-H ect) adult help can be few and far between. They may just have been fathers or uncles or state employees that volenteered and had a 10min class before hand. Been there and done that a few times.
No one got hurt, the kids had fun and hopefully they learned more good than bad. All in all it was a good day!

[292]

Check into volunteering like knifemaker said. I've been "trained" before and they stressed SAFETY and that's all. Sounds like the kids had a good time.

[Lloyd Smale]

Keep in mind it doesnt take a brain surgeon to be an NRA instructor. Heck they gave me a card ;) Also keep in mind that these guys are voluntering there time. I guess if i wasnt happy with the program id stand up and volunteer to do the next one myself. Ive give a number of ccw classes and one thing thats the constant is about every class has a guy or two that think they have all the answers and think they can do it better. My advice to you is to go up to those two gentleman and thank them for taking the time out of there personal lives to at least try to teach your grandkid how to safely handle a weapon. Or better yet get qualified yourself and help them with the next class by showing them what your version of gun safety looks like. By the way ive been carrying my slung rifles muzzle up for over 40 years and have never had an incident from doing it that way. I have seen on a number of occasions guys with them slung muzzle down with there guns pointed at someones feet. I dont think one method is any better then the other.

[square butte]

I had a CCW permit instructor certified to teach for Utah's permit - sweep my torso with the muzzle of a loaded 44 mag. Almost jumped out of my skin.

[Trey45]

The NRA instructor at a range I used to shoot at in Virginia went to some kind of expo in Texas several years ago where he shot himself in the foot with a 1911.

Notice I said I USED to shoot there?

[Newtire]

Keep in mind it doesnt take a brain surgeon to be an NRA instructor. Heck they gave me a card ;) Also keep in mind that these guys are voluntering there time. I guess if i wasnt happy with the program id stand up and volunteer to do the next one myself. Ive give a number of ccw classes and one thing thats the constant is about every class has a guy or two that think they have all the answers and think they can do it better. My advice to you is to go up to those two gentleman and thank them for taking the time out of there personal lives to at least try to teach your grandkid how to safely handle a weapon. Or better yet get qualified yourself and help them with the next class by showing them what your version of gun safety looks like. By the way ive been carrying my slung rifles muzzle up for over 40 years and have never had an incident from doing it that way. I have seen on a number of occasions guys with them slung muzzle down with there guns pointed at someones feet. I dont think one method is any better then the other. Well put Lloyd!

[historicfirearms]

Oops, dual post.

[historicfirearms]

I got certified by the NRA to instruct basic pistol. I put on a few ccw classes but gave it up. The training I had to give was not very good or appropriate. In Michigan, the class you can take to get your ccw is the NRA Personal Protection INSIDE the Home. As an NRA instructor, you are bound to cover everything in their syllabus for the particular class. Of course, you can cover more material that you see fit. The problem with that is that the class already occupies a complete day, and not many of the students would come back for a second day. I finally gave up doing the classes, because my conscience wouldn't let me do a poor job.

I share this because you have to keep in mind that as NRA instructors, they have to follow the class syllabus. I know for a fact that they have to tell you to wash your hands after shooting or handling ammo. If you don't like that, talk to the NRA about it, don't blame the "mediocre" instructors. There is no excuse, however, for the instructor not being familiar with the semi auto shotgun.

[KCSO]

We ran a M/L day for the Boy Scouts for over 10 years and during the day we would give a brief safety instructions to each group and they have 1 hour to let each scout shoot a M/L. The average was 600 scouts a day and we worked from 07:00 to 18:00 each of the two days. I will admit some of our instructors were new each time and althought they passed the NRA course THEY too needed coaching during the day but... they were there working 10-12 ours a day trying to help the kids. Sure some things went wrong and some things we did for safety sake were not what I would reccommend in the field but we did the best we could to at least get the kids interested.

Ask and I'll bet YOU can work the next program. The one thing we were ALWAYS short of was help.

[Blacksmith]

I have been a volunteer fire arms instructor and NRA certified for more than a quarter century. There are good and bad in every endeavor. The only way to improve the training is for concerned people to get involved, get training and credentials for yourself then volunteer your time and resources to pass the knowledge along to the uninitiated and the next generation. Get active and find good instructors set up and run classes, start junior shooting programs, help others start classes and programs, be involved.

The biggest shortage in shooter training is not money, ammunition, or places to shoot. It is the lack of people willing to do what needs to be done. We have a three position air rifle program for juniors that shoots in the bingo hall, is fully funded with no cost to the kids, and has helped start several other programs nearby; we also host a field day each year for 100+ kids from the community where they get to shoot .22 rifle, shotgun and black powder among other activities. It can be done but it takes volunteers both the good ones and the mediocre ones.

At the very least those kids, even with mediocre instruction, had a positive exposure to using firearms to help counteract the negatives they are exposed to at school and in the media.

[NSB]

Keep in mind it doesnt take a brain surgeon to be an NRA instructor. Heck they gave me a card ;) Also keep in mind that these guys are voluntering there time. I guess if i wasnt happy with the program id stand up and volunteer to do the next one myself. Ive give a number of ccw classes and one thing thats the constant is about every class has a guy or two that think they have all the answers and think they can do it better. My advice to you is to go up to those two gentleman and thank them for taking the time out of there personal lives to at least try to teach your grandkid how to safely handle a weapon. Or better yet get qualified yourself and help them with the next class by showing them what your version of gun safety looks like. By the way ive been carrying my slung rifles muzzle up for over 40 years and have never had an incident from doing it that way. I have seen on a number of occasions guys with them slung muzzle down with there guns pointed at someones feet. I dont think one method is any better then the other.

Lloyd speaks volumes. Remember, these people volunteered their time to do this activity. Maybe they aren't the best at it but they TRY. If you have the knowledge to do better, volunteer your time and do so. I've seen the type of instructor you talk about, and yes, they could do better. I then have to remind myself they're doing the best they can and are doing it on their time for free. Take some of your time and join in and help. Maybe the instructors could learn something and I'm sure it would benefit everyone.

[popper]

If you think the instructors there are bad, go to your local public school and see the paid instructors in action.
We all seen persons at the range 'instructing' others on shooting skills. Seems like the ones who talk loudest know the least. Muzzle up is 'the ' way to train a youngster as they may not be strong enough to lift the muzzle, keeping their finger away from the trigger. Additionally, the instructor can 'see' all the muzzles when up. I wash my hands after shooting, lead or not. Sounds to me like the NRA rules are pretty good for training. Kudos to those men who got the time and guts to train non-shooters.

[Alan in Vermont]

Also keep in mind that these guys are voluntering there time. I guess if i wasnt happy with the program id stand up and volunteer to do the next one myself.

I would love to do just that, have done so in the past and enjoyed it greatly. The problem with this particulr event is that it's a four hour round trip with close to eleven hours on the ground. I was absolutely beat/hurting when I got home, even with spending quite a bit of time sitting while I was there. With a hip going bad there is no way I can be on my feet for that long or be safe to get home afterwards.


By the way ive been carrying my slung rifles muzzle up for over 40 years and have never had an incident from doing it that way.

That's great with a slung rifle but I was talking about shotguns on a skeet field. I ran that by one of our skeet instructors at the club this morning. He just shook his head. What seems to work with the shotgunners is to have the gun, action open or broken, in the case of break action guns, tucked in the crook of the arm, muzzle down. Maybe where we were, with the guns being carried just a few feet, it makes sense but I can't see carrying muzzle up for any distance, which is the case at a lot of shotgun events.


Muzzle up is 'the ' way to train a youngster as they may not be strong enough to lift the muzzle, keeping their finger away from the trigger.

There must be something I'm missing in that comment as I can't see how they can carry muzzle up if they can't lift the muzzle.

I'm well aware of the lack of volunteers so the organizers have to take what they can get. There is also a growing trend for the influence of the legal dept. in what is in the training materials for the instructors. I was talking to one of the other parents there, we are a generation apart, his daughter is the same age as as my granddaughter. We have both found that we had to re-train our offspring because of some BS procedure that they got taught about what constitutes proper gun handling. The Hunter Safety classes no long teach them to physically confirm a gun is empty when you pick it up or take it from another person. HS has some multi-step alphabet soup procedure which doen NOT include visually confirming the gun is not loaded. The result is that when you hand one of these kids a gun (which you have confirmed is unloaded) with the action closed they check they have been taught to make sure the safety is on. The "old-fashioned" routine of open the action/loading gate, flop the cylinder out or rotate it, break a shotgun is totally foreign to them. And as a parent or grandparent(who obviously is not coll and doesn't know squat) you get resistance because that is not what the instructor taught them to do.

I'm signed up for the NRA RSO course next month so I can be a "qualified" RO at the club. It will be interesting to see how much legal dept. gobbleygook is in that one.

[Lance Boyle]

A small comment, there is lead styphnate in priming compound, so if there is burnt powder/primer there is lead. Washing your hands before lunch is a propper thing to do, especially for youths with still growing brains. They're more vulerable than us older farts with hardened minds.

Saw the same thing with boyscouts. I almost did the instruction for them but just couldn't afford to take the time off of work.

[429421Cowboy]

Keep in mind it doesnt take a brain surgeon to be an NRA instructor. Heck they gave me a card ;) Also keep in mind that these guys are voluntering there time. I guess if i wasnt happy with the program id stand up and volunteer to do the next one myself. Ive give a number of ccw classes and one thing thats the constant is about every class has a guy or two that think they have all the answers and think they can do it better. My advice to you is to go up to those two gentleman and thank them for taking the time out of there personal lives to at least try to teach your grandkid how to safely handle a weapon. Or better yet get qualified yourself and help them with the next class by showing them what your version of gun safety looks like. By the way ive been carrying my slung rifles muzzle up for over 40 years and have never had an incident from doing it that way. I have seen on a number of occasions guys with them slung muzzle down with there guns pointed at someones feet. I dont think one method is any better then the other.

Very well put, and my thoughts almost exactly!

If you were not happy with what you say from people that offered their time to try to get and keep kids interested in shooting sports, then perhaps you could volunteer your time to help improve the program. You also have to keep in mind that often as 4-H and Hunter Ed instructors, these type of events are not aimed at kids like your granddaughter that already have a solid foundation in safety, shooting and firearms in general. Those aren't the kids that need it, it is the ones that get no exposure at home but want to learn more. Better for them to learn it there than playing with a gun they find someplace else! There are kids that have to beg their non-hunting parents just to get to go to Hunter Ed so they can hunt with a friend or family member, and they need a place to start. Also, we teach muzzle up because that is the carry that will be safe most of the time, it is harder to point at someone accidently, and doesn't have as much risk of jamming mud or snow in the barrel if dropped or you fall. Simple differences of terminology don't always mean a person is qualified or not, think of how many mall ninjas use the exact technical term for every single aspect of shooting, but that doesn't make them any safer, smarter, or a better shot!
Just my opinion of the situation, trying to offer a little more insight into things as a 4-H leader and Hunter Ed instructor.

[Newtire]

Lloyd speaks volumes. Remember, these people volunteered their time to do this activity. Maybe they aren't the best at it but they TRY. If you have the knowledge to do better, volunteer your time and do so. I've seen the type of instructor you talk about, and yes, they could do better. I then have to remind myself they're doing the best they can and are doing it on their time for free. Take some of your time and join in and help. Maybe the instructors could learn something and I'm sure it would benefit everyone.
How do you enroll in the instructor's course. This is something that would interest me. Now that my kids are grown up, I miss helping them and all their friends.

[popper]

Allen. One hand on the pistol grip behind the trigger housing and one on the fore stock. Lower to shooting position. No it isn't a field position, but a traing one for kids. Try it.

[Blacksmith]

How do you enroll in the instructor's course. This is something that would interest me. Now that my kids are grown up, I miss helping them and all their friends.

This is a good place to start:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx

[Lloyd Smale]

"I would love to do just that, have done so in the past and enjoyed it greatly. The problem with this particulr event is that it's a four hour round trip with close to eleven hours on the ground. I was absolutely beat/hurting when I got home, even with spending quite a bit of time sitting while I was there. With a hip going bad there is no way I can be on my feet for that long or be safe to get home afterwards."



Alan if thats the case it sure opens up the fact that more instructors are needed to start your own program closer to home. It only takes one weekend out of your life to sit through the schooling to be an NRA instructor. If you want you can even make it pay for itself by giving ccw classes afterward. Ive only done that once and it wasnt for me but ive used my certificate to help the local whitetails unlimited group put on hunters safety classes and the boy scouts put on organized shoots for young children around here.

[gmsharps]

It's hard to find people that have the ability to transfer knowledge to other folks. They may have good intentions but most cannot do it. At least many of them try as there is a tremendous need for instructors and unfortunately not enough volunteers.

gmsharps

[Newtire]

This is a good place to start:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx Thanks Blacksmith! None available near Boise it seems, none within 50 miles and the 100 mile radius search does not respond.

[country gent]

I understand what the original poster is saying, I also understand most clubs that put these events on are strappedfor voulenteers. Then the same people are asked over ad over for everything. We would put on sight in day for adults, youth at the club I belong toOnce a year for a saturday and sunday. We Had no idea of the skill sets or training of these people. NRA open chamber indicators were mandatory ( alot complained about the "plastic" in barrels. We also had a coach on each bench firing position with each shooter. The Coach came in the building when ready for next shooter, gave a brief saftey talk on saftey what was expected and how it was being done. This was the second time they heard this as it was went thru during sighn i also. The coach then took the persons ammo. They went out to the benches range and the coach helped with set up on the bench. Ammo was given out one round at a time and fired. This gave us control and no rifle could be loaded easily when the range was down to repost targets and people were down range. You wouldnt believ the complaints over this. We would run several hundred shooters thru each day, there was no room for lax or not having complete control. We had several over the years that had to be given instruction on working the rifle they brought, a couple scope cuts, and people who did not have a clue to saftey or range etiquitte. Loaded fire arms at the sighn in table werent unusual. The wrong ammo for a rifle was common. After 2 days of dealing with these issues constantly the voulenteers were whipped. When you go to something like these or a match remember chances are its all voulenteers working them and a thank-you for your time is in order. I have coached High Power junior shooters over the years, worked with boy scouts/girl scouts/4H clubs and others. One was a group of doctors from a local hospital ( talk about the misconceptions) and a group from the local Zoo, All big " stopping" rifles and shotguns with slugs. The Zoo still qualifies at the club, Its something to wacth these people shooting a 458 win mag to qualify. Ladies small statured guys. But most are doing very good with them now. An instructor while he is knowledgable isnt expected to know everything. I am mainly rifle can do handguns, Trap and skeet the shotgun disiplines are greek to me. Archery is also greek to me. I have basic knowledge of them but that is all. Also it takes a certain person to coach instruct with a certain mindset and demeanor. This isnt always the case or available.
Oh and normally at the sight in days the ones that complianed the most about ammo rationing and bolt indicators were the most thankfull after wards. Had several come in afterwards we went down to repaste view targets and I could see every rifle was unloaded and action was open at a glance was heard often most wanted to but the flags for use at home ranges or deer camps afterwards. I aways stocked up with a couple hundred before these events. We not only sighted in hunters at these but trained in saftey and use.

[Blacksmith]

Thanks Blacksmith! None available near Boise it seems, none within 50 miles and the 100 mile radius search does not respond.

Keep checking back because the list is constantly being updated as new classes are offered. Also you can call NRA Training Division and express your interest, they may be able to connect you with a Training Counselor (an Instructor trainer) in your area to work something out. They also have a couple of on line classes available but I have not tried one of those.

I checked and as you said no instructor classes in Idaho at this time but there are some regular classes being taught in Boise and other places, you might contact those instructors and see where they got their training.

[popper]

Flash - kid fires holstered SWAT member's pistol. Duh! You unload your gun BEFORE any demonstration.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/02/lodi-police-officer-shot-when-child-pulled-trigger-on-his-gun-at-reading-event/
He's back on the job.

[dakotashooter2]

I don't know about anyone else but I consider an accurately sited rifle to be a safer one than one that shoots "off target" so that IS a saftey issue with me.

It is recommended that muzzle up be used when there are few other hunters/shooters around. Muzzle down is recommended for large parties.

[popper]

Must have got their training here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxhvUJ4LbBM

[TXGunNut]

I think most of us owe a debt of gratitude to instructors as a group. Yes, there are a few ego types but as a rule they're selfless and patient and almost every one of them does a better job than I can. I can tutor a novice or beginning shooter and give a few tips to comp shooter but I find it difficult to teach about something I enjoy so much. Maybe someday.

[mroliver77]

I was going to help with 4H but it was so lame that I just couldn't do it. I suppose it depends on where you are and who is leading it.

What is up with everybody shooting from a bench? I only use bench for working up loads. Most shooters cannot hit offhand anymore. I laugh when people need to open their bipod.(They always seem to call it a tripod) Once I instilled safety and trigger control, dry firing etc in my kids I let them shoot at cans at fairly close range. They get excited with reactionary targets. Paper gets boring real fast for me and mine! We then move to the creek with marshmallows. I have not found anybody that did not get a real kick out of bouncing marshmallows through the air! The water is good for seeing where your shots are going.I like them to start with single shot rifles. A few bricks through a single shot is a good start!
When it comes hunting time they are confident and fast.

I was amazed that the Shutzenfests here are shot with .22 target rifles off a rest!

J

[Alan in Vermont]

There is a 4-H shooting group near here. I contacted them and never got a reply. We had a JayCee chapter here for one year and I coached the team they sponsored in the Daisy BB Gun event. That was about as much fun as I ever had with a shooting event. Our team missed going to the national event by one lousy point. :)

The NRA YHEC course of fire was supposed to be position shooting(and scored), why it devolved to into a bench clusterflop escapes me. The best shooters from each state were supposed to be going to NM for a national level event but that never happened. I asked about that and I got some politically correct gibberish everybody getting an award and their being no "losers". That whole concept leaves me cold, what incentive is there to do well when there is no recognition for doing good?

[Blacksmith]

Visit the CMP site and look at the 3P air rifle information. Lots of junior programs, competitions, affiliated clubs, and information. Go and poke around, try the listings in the index on the left side of the page.
http://www.odcmp.com/3p.htm

Read the back issues of "On The Mark" magazine.
http://www.odcmp.com/Comm/OTM.htm

[wild thing]

Shooting from a bench allows you to see that everyone is behind the muzzle of all guns. We are not teaching marksmanship,we try to teach safe handling of firearms. By the way shooting at water can cause ricochets.Not safe... John hunter safety instructer.

[Alan in Vermont]

Shooting from a bench allows you to see that everyone is behind the muzzle of all guns. John hunter safety instructer.

I'm sure some "expert" wrote the book you are expected to follow, but how bench shooting becomes "safer" than position shooting from a firing line far exceeds my ability understand it.

[mroliver77]

I did not mean to sound snooty with the bench remark.

Shooting at my own water on my own property is plenty safe! Plenty of backstop! After thousands of rounds I have never witnessed a ricochet.

[waksupi]

I did not mean to sound snooty with the bench remark.

Shooting at my own water on my own property is plenty safe! Plenty of backstop! After thousands of rounds I have never witnessed a ricochet.

I'm kind of surprised. I have seen water ricochets many times. When I was young, one of our neighbor kids shot his brother with a ricochet when he shot across a pond. Lost an eye.

Bench shooting teaches very little about gun handling. Give them a stick, paint one end black, one end red, and see where they point them as they go about their business. You will see examples of dangerous handling.

[mroliver77]

We do not shoot at shallow angle into the water and are somewhat elevated. To clarify, this is a creek or small river that runs through my property inside of a woods down in a hollow. Even IF there was a ricochet it would not be an issue.
Now I need to try to make it happen!
J