Sabots help

[georgewxxx]

Clearly out of my field in front stuffers, so I'm asking for help.

My brother-in-law in New Jersey has a .50 cal White rifle. He uses sabots and Remington 240gr JHP for hunting. I offered him a quantity of 240gr cast to keep his costs down. Anyone tried cast boolits in sabots for target or hunting? I've got several different 50 cal sabots I've used for experimenting with my 50/70's cartridge guns. They work to some degree, but I wouldn't use them unless I had no other source for big 50 cal boolits.

The White rifle are 504 bore diameter and need to be fouled before loading, at least that what he tells me. The bore is just a tad larger than normal.

Muzzle loaders have a mind boggling array of components available and I've never had to deal with testing an animal like those in many years. Shotgun & revolter I've got, and use on occasion, but muzzle loading rifle, is a new ball game for me....Geo

[Bullshop]

Go here to learn all about the White rifles.
http://dwbs.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=bullets
BIC/BS

[georgewxxx]

Bullshop,

I've tried several times to get on that site and they won't let me in. Something about needing one of their people to confirm my log=in.

I've been on Whites web-site too but they want to sell you their product. Chuck hawks has a small blurb on White rifles also. I just need some input about cast boolits in sabots. Do they work or not?....Geo

[Junior1942]

They work fine. I've shot a bunch of as-cast 240 gr Lee 44 bullets in my 50 caliber GPH. Never made meat with one, however.

[georgewxxx]

Junior, did you ever compare them with any other type of boolits? swaged or condom?

[Rattus58]

Junior... there is a world of difference between a GPH and a White.

George... Almost anything shoots well out of the white. Many folks have tried different sabots in the White and some worked better than others. The White Power Star used a longer sabot for its heavier bullets, so I wouldn't be casting up too long a bullet unless you have a sabot that might be long enough to cover the shoulder of the bullet.

Bullets in the 240 to 260 range would probably shoot very well if a tight fit is attained. Toby Bridges did a comparison of a number of different bullets up to 300 grains in the White. A tight fit would be my prescription.

Aloha... :cool:

[georgewxxx]

Rattus, I noticed Harvester has long and short 50 cal. sabots.

On one web-site there were some complaints about the sabots being too tight, and then another poster said use the same thing you use for sizing your brass cases with. Imperial sizing wax. I know when testing in the 50-70, some sabots were real buggers to fit in the case, but when they were in place, they shot great. Guess I never tried that wax method.

The pre-fouling of the White is where I get lost. How come no other company's guns need that treatment?

[Rattus58]

You don't need nor want that with sabots... you want a tight fit and the fouling shot would make loading really difficult. With undersized bullets, which sabots aren't, you need the fouling shot to help seat the bullet.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[Underclocked]

Recently fired some 200 grain TC Shockwaves in blue MMP .50/.40 sabots. First shot was on a cold clean bore that had been swabbed free of oils. Swabbed with both sides of a single alcohol dampened patch between each shot.

Nothing to brag on here but not that bad considering this was my first attempt ever at shooting sabots in my White .504. Note the first of these 3-shot groups was very high as the rifle had been sighted in with a heavy conical and a lesser charge of powder. I'm thinking of making this my "varmint rifle." :mrgreen:

http://i20.tinypic.com/qs5ime.jpg

Loading those sabots was certainly not as easy loading as a bore riding conical, but was not all that difficult and I could properly seat the bullet with just a steady, smooth push all the way down. I highly recommend he swab between shots with any sabot.

Swabbing between shots is not necessary with a White when using conicals but can certainly be done and sometimes to an advantage so far as groups. A friend swabs his bore to a basic clean state after every shot and shoots some fantastic groups with his White. The thing he wants is a cold, clean bore sight in and all shots are fired under those conditions. And Whites vary just a bit with regard to shooting fouled, some will put that first clean barrel shot right in with the fouled shots while others won't. Fouling mostly assures good bullet positioning in the bore while hunting but different sizing of bullets still easy to load can accomplish the same thing. There are also ways to fake fouling for that first shot - more than a few White owners use a single wrap of Teflon tape around the base on the clean bullet load and find that works for them. Others might suggest a single wrap of newspaper or ...? Lot's of different methods.

But Whites are designed for use with a slightly underbore diameter conical. This makes for terrifically easy loading whether fouled or clean, but you can see how a clean bore would make a stroll through the woods a bit risky so far as keeping the bullet where it belongs.

So far as your castings in your friend's White - if they are a good bullet, not too hard for expansion, and the sabot purchased is of the proper size - they should work just fine. I would not go for the thinner petals, rather I would look to use a more standard thickness sabot. I think the smoother the walls (fewer grooves) on the cast bullet, the better might be the accuracy - but some have had great luck shooting regular ol' Maxi-balls in sabots.

mmpsabots.com has pictures of a variety of choices. On that page you also find some discussion of sizes. His HPH24s are the thinner petals and would not likely be your best choice. In the Harvesters, I would look at those of standard design and not the crushed rib. You don't want the load to go down TOO easily.

[versifier]

I have tested various lead boolits in .50 and .54 m/l's with results that have been from dismal to all the way to incredible.
Think of the relationship of patch thickness and ball diameter when you consider the sabot/boolit relationship. There are many different kinds of available sabots in different thicknesses and hardnesses. (Sometimes you need to size the boolit so that it fits the chosen sabot and loads easily. Just because it says it takes a .44 bullet, that does not necessarily mean that a .429 boolit is the correct size for best accuracy.) IME, the chosen boolit is not as critical as the chosen sabot - the deeper the rifling, the softer the plastic, and don't forget that the length of the sabot has to be matched to the rate of twist. It can get almost as involved to work up an accurate target load in a m/l as it can in a centerfire rifle/pistol, but you have fewer component choices.
Target accuracy and hunting accuracy are not always the same thing. For hunting loads, you are not necessarily looking for the one-hole target load, but rather for the highest velocity that will still give accuracy enough to do the job. For instance, instead of my slow 1" target load, I am happy with 6" for 5 shots offhand at 100yds for a hunting load at the highest velocity. (Obviously, the same load would do much better from the bench, but it is really difficult to train the deer to stand there at 100yds while you set up for the perfect shot. [smilie=1: ) Like with centerfires, not all m/l barrels are capable of match accuracy anyway, and MOD (minute of deer) will have to do. You have to be realistic in your expectations and settle for enough to get the job done. Now, you might be able to find a MOA combination for the rifle in question at a good velocity, and that is great. In fact, from what I have seen and read of Whites, it is likely that you can, but for most hunting rifles, one must be prepared to compromise a little.

[Rattus58]

Hey Uncle... Not bad.... :) Do you happen to know what kind of sabot the Barnes 300 uses?

If you was using the 50/40 this gentleman was thinking of a 45 werent he?

Course you could fire him up some neato 410's :grin: :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

[Underclocked]

Not relevant to his question - and that is why I directed him to MMP. There he can find sabots pictured along with their descriptions that will allow him to make a recommendation to his BIL. Those Shockwaves I shot are some I received in a trade quite a long time ago and finally got around to shooting a few of them.

My first guess would be the standard black MMP sabot for .50 for either .451 or .452 sized bullets. For .457/8 sized, go with the orange MMP sabot.

As far as the Barnes - no idea but apparently some were packaged with incorrect sabots.
Read near the bottom of http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/muzzleloader/ . My guess would be a custom made sabot probably done by MMP.

The simple answer to his question would probably have been: "Yes, many folks use cast bullets in sabots with good success, you just need to pair the bullet in question with the correct sabot."

[Rattus58]

"Sigh"..... My Uncle Rich is so terrific... thas why he is called the all seeing one... :)

Aloha.. :grin:

[Junior1942]

Junior, did you ever compare them with any other type of boolits? swaged or condom?George, I've yet to find a bullet the GPH won't shoot well. That includes the 265 Hornady 44, the 240 Lee 44, the 310 Lee 44, and the 320 Lee REAL bullet. On the 44s I used Hornady sabots lubed on the outside with my Junior Lube. Same lube on the 320 REAL. Pyrodex RS only.

I no longer hunt with the GPH due to the long barrel in the thickets I like to stalk through. I now use a short barreled Traditions "Buckskinner." My brother and I are going hunting in the morning, and he'll use the GPH since he's too tight to buy his own rifle. He only makes 10x as much as me. . . .

[Bullshop]

You know them DWB's mostly ask for pure lead bore diameter boolits but there is one fella there goes by sabot loader and he says yes they do. The rest of um ride him sometimes about shootin plastic but I guess his handle says it.
BIc/BS

[Underclocked]

All in fun Dan. Have you done any hunting with your White yet?

[georgewxxx]

Thanks for all the input by everyone. it'll make it easier to understand the relationship between sabot and boolit.

As in cartridge shooting the idea of boolit expansion takes on a deferent realm for me. If I were to shoot a 30-30 weighing 150gr at a deer, I want some expansion to at least .35 caliber or so. Shooting a 240gr 44 cal boolit with a huge flat nose to start with, I'd be happy just to put the boolit in my criteria of the kill zone. All the fuss about expansion seems moot when I talk to my Brother-in-law, and he tells me he's never recovered a boolit in the many, deer he's taken with his White rifle.

John Barsness talks about that a lot in his articles in the Handloader magazine. He compares all his recorded kills plus many others from people he's hunted with. If you hit a deer with a 375H&H, it may or may not drop immediately on impact. That's about the same results I get with kills with a 30/40 Krag, or 308. I've shot up wards of 30 deer with cast boolits and have never recovered a boolit yet. They're all made of WW and considered hard by your muzzleloader standards. The tearing up of innards in the right spot with a cast .44 240gr boolit is much better, or as good as a solid copper 180gr 30cal that expands to only 45 caliber in the first place....Geo

[Underclocked]

George, you might want to take a look at this http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2396578

[georgewxxx]

Thanks underclocked, the more info we get the easier to make decisions on what supplies to buy.

Anybody used the harvestor ribbed sabots?..Geo

[Rattus58]

In the Harvesters, I would look at those of standard design and not the crushed rib. You don't want the load to go down TOO easily.

This was posted earlier by Uncle Rich

[Underclocked]

Yes it was, but I could well be wrong. A lot depends upon the particular bore of that rifle. He might also want to consider some HPH24s from MMP if it's a tight bore. I mic'd a .452 Hornady XTP inside a standard black .50 MMP sabot and got .510 even with a bit of squeeze. No wonder I hated loading those things!! The HPH24 would mic at about .505 with the same bit of squeeze and would load one heckuva lot easier in a White. I don't have any data on the Harvester stuff, so the crushed ribs might be the better choice.

Wouldn't take but a couple of bullets using his current sabots to find out what is going to be needed.

[mooman76]

Thanks underclocked, the more info we get the easier to make decisions on what supplies to buy.

Anybody used the harvestor ribbed sabots?..Geo

My wife likes the ribbed kind!:kidding:

[georgewxxx]

I bet you wear socks to bed too.