Super Reduced Load for my .303 British Ross Rifle

[d_man2]

Hi, This is my first post in this forum, but I have been viewing for years and enjoying the knowledge and experience of other fellow shooters. I just wanted to share my recent experiences with my 1905 Ross Rifle. I have had it in pieces for probably about 15 years as I have been looking for a stock. I was finally able to get one from a very generous person in the Ross Rifle forums who just happened to have one and sent it to me for the cost of shipping! I was so excited that I would finally be able to use my long awaited Ross Rifle. When I got it out to the range, I was like a kid in a candy store! They say that all good things must come to an end.....and did it ever!

I loaded up some Lee 160 grain cast bullets with 22 grs of H322 as I did not want to run any full power loads through it since this gun had not been shot in more years than I have been alive. When I pulled the trigger the bullet went flying but landed no where near where I shot. I continued to shoot to see if it was just a sighting problem or a loading problem. It was both! At 25 yards my bullets were "grouping" around the 2 foot mark! Not an impressive way to start out with me "new" gun at all. Among my observations were that some of my brass had split and that all were highly yet consistently mis-shapen from where they had started out (full length sized).

This lead me to beleive that this rifle has a major excessive headspace problem and also that the bore was not in as good of shape as I had originally thought. For my next trip to the range, I made some reduced loads with 8 grs of 800-x.....my biggest problem with this was I had never had any experience with excessive headspace in any of my rifles throughout the years. So like a newbie I did a full length size on the brass before reloading. Low and behold the rounds were nicer to shoot.....more like a 6 inch group at 25 yards....better but not great, but the brass was still mis shaping and I had one split. Back to the drawing board.

I did some research on excessive headspace, and on one forum it was suggested that the cases NOT be full length sized at all but only neck sized. This creates a situation where the ammo can only be used in the one rifle, but does make it much safer and better to shoot. Since I have only the one .303 this is totally not an issue. Seemed to make so much sense, I do not know why I never thought of it. Next time to the range.....same loads with 800-x I was not getting the mis shapen cartridges nor did I have any splits and my grouping went to 3 inches! I am thinking I am onto something finally!

This brings me up to where I am now and I wanted to share my "Super Reduced Load" which I developed for the .303. I had just received my .311 Lee round ball mould and I had been reading about people using it in their rifles with reduced charges. Here is one that I settled on that I was amazed with the results.

.311 Lee round ball tumble lubed with liquid Alox, seated with a light mallet so that the ball is almost half in and half out of the neck making it look like a small ice cream cone. The sprue cut was to the top
2.5 grains 800-x with 1/4 of a square of toilet paper as wad to hold the powder to the primer
Winchester Large Rifle primer

The results were: Avg velocity 507 fps, rounds made little more than a pop and sounded more quiet than most air rifles! They were so much fun to shoot and at 30 feet I was consistently shooting every round through the same hole! Now if I could only get that kind of accuracy with a "real" load...will continue to update if I get my higher power loads finally working.

80292

[foesgth]

I have alway wondered about the Ross. I have never even seen one, much less get to shoot one. I build a lot of reduced loads. My wife and grandkids like shooting my old war horse rifles but don't like the recoil of full loads. I find that 12-15 grs. of TrailBoss is a perfect load. With the unique shape of TrailBoss powder it takes up most of the case and no "wad" is needed. Most of my loads run about a 1000fps with recoil like a .22. If you haven't tried Trailboss grab a jug and I think you will find it the perfect powder for reduced loads. Fill the case to the level where the heel of the bullet would be and measure the weight. Back off about 10% for your starting load. I load boolits from a Lee CTL312-160 lubed with 45/45/10 and get good accuracy out to 100 yards. They also murder cans of shaving creme from the 99 cent store. Now I have to go and buy a round ball mold and try your trick!

[nekshot]

d man2, welcome aboard and it sounds like you are well on your way to having fun. It is amazing how much fun shooting sub-sonic can be! Trail Boss can ad to the fun for sure. Lesser is usually better than more with tp I find.

[OBIII]

You may want to look at Unique, it works wonders for low power loads in my 03A3. Also, you may want to have a gunsmith look at the rifle, and possibly do a cerocast of the chamber.

OB

[texassako]

I like Trailboss as well. It is not as cheap as some of the pistol powder loads, but is really easy to load with no fear of double charges. I have used a .32 ACP Ranchdog boolit and which ever fast pistol powder is at the front of my powder shelf in several rifles with similar results to your round ball.

[d_man2]

Sounds like I should look for some Trailboss next....only reason I was using 800-x is that it is what I had on hand. That's the sort of guy I am...what I have I will make work some way or the other (after all look at the stock on my rifle! lol) Local gun shop didn't have any Trailboss or Unique in and didn't seem to concerned about ordering any when I asked for it....the joys of living in a geographical oddity like I am! As for double charges at the 2.5 gr level, I am totally not worried about that. Even if that were to happen (which I doubt since I load each reduced charge individually) 5 gr would only put the speed up to just over 1000 fps (more into the 22 rimfire range than the pellet gun range) and the pressure would still be within the safe limits. I did try to shoot this load without the "wad" but ended up with a LOT of unburned powder simply pouring out of the end of the barrel...there just didn't seem to be enough powder close enough to the primer otherwise. I just wanted a REALLY reduced load that could be safely shot just about anywhere and I was able to accomplish what I set out to do. I have also shot the same load out of my SKS, hasn't been as accurate as the Ross but I never used a wad in the 7.62x39, just didn't think I would need to as it is a much smaller case. I did not seem to have the problem with the unburned powder. I have not chronied that one yet but it is something I plan on doing. I suppose for posterity sake I should compare the "wadded vs un-wadded" with the SKS. Thanks for all the replies guys!

[d_man2]

Ok, so I did a little further testing this morning with the SKS. With the un-wadded rounds they were travelling at 625 fps and the wadded round at 535 fps! There was a significant sound difference as well, the un-wadded being louder. I have not done any accuracy testing yet but if wadded rounds in my SKS are more accurate, perhaps that is the way to go. The purpose of this experiment was to create a Super Reduced round.....so by going with that criteria, perhaps that is what I should be doing anyways. All I know is that it has been fun! I have included a photo of my "ice cream cones", you can see the flat part from the sprue cutter is on top. It is kind of interesting too that in the Ross Rifle I was unable to feed the rounds through the magazine so I had to single feed but that through the SKS they fed perfectly through the magazine (albeit manually since there is no way a round this weak could ever function the auto loader).

[1Shirt]

Good for you for staying with it! Congrats!
1Shirt!

[foesgth]

Well, I ordered the .311 mold. What is the measured size of the balls you are casting? I load for 303 British, 7.62x54r, and 7.7 Jap. These all have "generous" bore sizes. This is going to be fun! Now if only I could find that Ross for me to work on!!!

[d_man2]

They are dropping out around .3115, plus a bit of Alox on them. I have seen some articles where they completely sink the ball into the neck. I have found this is not necessary at all as all that does is stretch you brass more than it needs to be. They only have to be in just past the halfway mark so they are good and tight. You will just sort of get "the feel" for it as you are making them. And yes, they are super fun....just shot some in the basement today....have some boxes filled with corrugated cardboard, stops em dead! Of course your wife might get mad about the smell of gunpowder in the house! I fixed that problem....got rid of the wife! lol

As for getting a Ross.....well, good luck there! Up here in Canada they are a bit easier to find....This one was hanging on the wall all rusted out and neglected literally covered in bird droppings. The guy I got it from "owed me one" so I asked him for that (of course I did need a stock for it). He looked at me a little strange thinking it was little more than a pile of scrap iron sitting there.....little did he know.

[xs11jack]

Welcome d man2! For casting and shooting, this is the Place!! And you have added information to our great library. I have a 303 british Ishapor and two Nagants to load for. I will definitely apply your information for fun and economical shooting. Thank you!
Ole Jack

[d_man2]

Glad this information will be of use to some other people out there! I know I have REALLY been enjoying shooting these loads. I still have some more testing to do with the SKS but it is all coming along great! Come to think of it.......why haven't I tried these in my .308 yet!? Silly me! I am off to the basement as we speak!

[d_man2]

Wow! I just loaded a .308 Winchester with this load! Makes a SIGNIFICANTLY larger bang! I won't be able to chrony it until later as my basement lights are fluorescent and the chrony just does not work with them. I assume (bad word I know) that the reason for the bigger bang is the increased pressure of pushing the lead ball through a smaller bore. I will update when I get some chrony results. Seemed very accurate too. This load really should work in ANY .30 cal rifle, pushing a lead ball that is .3115 through a .308 bore is less of an issue as shooting an oversize jacketed bullet as with a lead ball very little of it is actually touching the bore.

[mroliver77]

You never stated the size of the 160 grain lee boolit and if you are using a gas check. Alloy?

If you anneal the brass that should help with neck splitting. Also sometimes you can use another .30 cal sizing die to neck size your brass without touching the body. Sometimes very oversize chambers require an unconventional approach. Ideally you only want to size enough to allow the round to chamber freely and hold a new projectile.

The Green Dot is fine powder as long as you follow good reloading practices to not get a double charge.

Keep up the good work and keep us updated.

I love to see old ones come back to life!
J

[d_man2]

Well, here it goes....I did get to check out the .308 Winchester today (Rossi single shot) and my suspicions were confirmed....a MUCH bigger bang! They were averaging 925 fps unwadded, and 694 wadded! Just to recheck I reloaded a couple being sure my powder weights were correct and I still got the same results so to say the least I was a little shocked that I was getting almost double the speed with the same round ball and same 800x powder. So I reduced my load in half to only 1.25 grs of 800x and I was at 405 fps wadded! Wow! who would have thought that the results would have varied so much from the same load just a different cartridge. I was expecting the .308 and .303 would have been similar, not even close. The .303 and the SKS had similar results.

Speaking of SKS, just because I had one (only one) 7.62x39 range pickup small rifle primed brass I loaded it to see what results I would get. I wadded both charges and weighed them....the first one was 702 fps and the second was 258 fps....I can see why someone left that piece of brass. It did not function well in my action either. I figure on the second charge the powder must have somehow made it on top of the toilet paper wad as I was packing it down as there was a lot of unburned powder, either way they were weird results.

I do realize I have somewhat hijacked my own thread of .303 Ross Rifle Super reduced loads to more of a .30 Cal Super Reduced Load thread. Oh well, it sort of just morphed itself into that and it was fun doing. Very bizarre yet equally interesting results. The most shocking were the .308 Winchester results.

In response to mroliver77 the mould I was using was CTL312-160-2R gas checked. The first batch I did were not quenched, but all subsequent batches have been and I have been happier with them. Great advice on using a different die for neck sizing! I will probably give my 7.62x39 die a try for that, just not screw it down all the way.

Hope you all have enjoyed this thread as much as I have writing it and that at least a few of you give these super reduced loads a try!

[d_man2]

At the risk of highjacking my own thread yet again, just did a few further tests with the .308 Winchester. Instead of a Large Rifle Primer, I used a Winchester Large Pistol primer. Yes I know they are shallower and seat deeper. It just seemed like a good test to run since I have 1000 WLP primers and no pistol! My speed was averaging 891 fps.....so an overall loss of 30 fps by using a pistol primer. One thing I did notice that while testing I did make a mistake, on some of the tests (ie the 308 wadded at 694 fps) I used 1/4 of a two ply sheet of toilet paper for wadding whereas in the rest of the tests I used 1/4 of a single ply (I just pulled them apart). The extra wadding really tends to slow things down a lot! The primer did push back a little due to pressure which was not surprising. Then just for a comparison, I chronied an Imperial 22 short that I have had for years, never tested the speed before. 986 fps! Since the overall weight of the round ball projectile is more than the 22 short, I would guess that the overall energy would be similar. This is very good news as it would be nice to have a few of these super-reduced loads in my pocket while deer hunting just in case I am "attacked" by a crazy bunny or a grouse with an evil look in his eye!

[d_man2]

You never stated the size of the 160 grain lee boolit and if you are using a gas check. Alloy?

If you anneal the brass that should help with neck splitting. Also sometimes you can use another .30 cal sizing die to neck size your brass without touching the body. Sometimes very oversize chambers require an unconventional approach. Ideally you only want to size enough to allow the round to chamber freely and hold a new projectile.

The Green Dot is fine powder as long as you follow good reloading practices to not get a double charge.

Keep up the good work and keep us updated.

I love to see old ones come back to life!
J

I hate flogging a dead horse, but I thought you might be interested in seeing a pic of just how "generous" of a chamber my Ross Rifle has. It is well known that there are many different specs to which the .303 British have been and a picture is worth a thousand words. The first brass is factory new brass from Winchester. Please note where the shoulder is and the length of the neck. The second (loaded with 8gr 800x for fireforming) brass has been full length sized and the boolit has been crimped. Notice the differences in the shape of the brass. The third brass is after the round had been fired. The neck shape completely blew out and all rounds were an extremely hard extraction. A boolit of the same size (.311) just falls out with lots of space to spare. The fourth brass is after the neck only was sized, and lastly the final brass is after brass was reloaded with the same 800x charge and re-fired. Please note the complete difference in the size / shape of the neck throughout the process. In the final load and shoot it should be noted that the brass extracted as it should with no difficulties and no further mi-shaping of the brass. It is apparent that it will take me a while (and many hard extractions) to get a couple boxes of brass ready for this rifle and this rifle alone. I am hoping the end will justify the means to keep this old beauty alive.
97108

[elk hunter]

As I recall, the Ross and the Lee Enfield both had problems with dirt, mud and dirty ammunition so many had their chambers enlarged in order to get the rounds to chamber. There was no worry about reloading for combat rifles. I'm still not overly impressed with the accuracy of my Ross or my Lee Enfields. They shoot OK, but nothing like my Krags or my 03 or 03-a3 Springfields. Perhaps I need to spend more time with them. Not an unpleasant idea at all.

[nekshot]

talking of generous chambers, I seldom use any die other than seating boolit when sooting a specific gun. What I am saying is I shoot, punch primer, alittle neck flair, primer ,powder and seat the boolit. Obviously this only for intended gun to shoot but it sure saves brass and I find usually as accurate as using sizing dies.

[bearcove]

That's not generous that's rechambered to something else!

[Larry Gibson]

Try the Lee TL 314-90-SWC TL'd and sized .314 or the Hornady swaged .314 SWC's over 3.2 gr Bullseye. No wad or filler needed. Shoots great in my Ross M 10.

Larry Gibson

[justashooter]

ross rifles are notorious for their oversized chambers if in 303. some of the later 280 ross rifles had tight chambers, and were very accurate guns. the 1905 sporterized 303 i have is not bad in terms of chamber size, but i do neck size only, as it is the only 303 that i have. IIRC i last shot it with some .312 diameter 125 grain SWC (for 32-20) and about 8 grains unique under teddy bear innards.

[SSGOldfart]

d-man welcome glad you put your 2 cents in this subject 'It was a fine post got me to thinking about going back to a Super Reduced Load 308 load I was working on when I was station in Germany years ago.

[Greg B.]

Have you slugged your barrel? I don't know about the Ross but apart from oversized chambers the Lee Enfield 303 had grove diameters ranging from the correct .311 to a high of .317. Also some of the early Ross rifles had a reputation for launching the bolt back in the shooters face if it was not installed correctly. Not trying to scare you as it sounds like you know what you are doing but it is something to be aware of. Good luck.

[Janoosh]

Great post d-man...my 1905 ross has the same chamber problem.
Not to be inflammatory, but let's put some mis-information to bed.
Ross model 1905 has solid lugs..no problem with this model.
Ross model 1910 has interrupted lugs..this model is the problem child.
When you own a Ross, you learn about the idiosyncrasies of the model. And learn about which model had ..." THE "..problem.
You just need to watch the lugs turn...or not....

[zuke]

Have you thought of pulling down a 7.62x39 round and using both powder and bullet as a reduced load?

[Old School Big Bore]

I'm thinking your .308 is a modern, properly fitted-up, correctly chambered rifle and that's why it's more efficient at converting powder into velocity. It may cost a bit but you might want to have someone set your barrel back and recut the chamber to spec. I know I wouldn't want my eyeballs close to it until then.

[zuke]

Ross rifle's are fine to shoot as is. It's the throat/shoulder area that's been "modified"(butchered)

[sthwestvictoria]

97108

Could the rifle have been re-chambered? Hard to tell from just a photograph but the wall of the chamber seems much more straight sided in your fireformed case on the right and the neck region has changed drastically. Maybe post some measurements of the length of fireformed case, inside neck of the fire formed case and diameter at shoulder and base. Some of the smart people here will be able to help you. Slugging the bore is also often useful.

This is the best bore slugging tutorial I have seen. Use pure, soft lead, not WW lead or harder.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Could it be a 303 Epps?
http://www.303british.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/eppvs303.JPG.w300h248.jpg
This picture may be wrong, I don't know enough. From this thread the 303 epps should have a 42degree shoulder:
http://rossrifle.com/forum/index.php?topic=340.0
More Epps information here, even a book(let):
http://www.303british.com/id20.html

[d_man2]

You know, originally I doubted that this rifle had been re-chambered or modified, but after reading that article on http://www.303british.com/id20.html it has me thinking a whole lot. The dimensions you have provided are looking a lot closer to what I have. It is POSSIBLE that perhaps this gun was worked on by Mr. Epps himself, and perhaps he was the one who bought it from the government and sold it off as surplus to begin with! The business is still there and is a really awesome firearm store; it is only about an hour and a half away. I might just have to throw the Ross into the trunk and go on a road trip one afternoon and see if the company might have any records on this particular firearm. I know its a shot (excuse the pun) in dark, but hey, you never know! Besides....its a short trip to go look at guns..........how bad could that possibly be!?

[d_man2]

I haven't done any 7.62x39 pulldowns YET for the Ross, but it is only list of projects to do this summer for sure! I have done that for some cheap plinkers (when I haven't had anything better to do) for my .308 with great results, no reason the Ross should be any different! And yes for those of you who are wondering, I ALWAYS size my bullets down before I load them in the .308. It is tight, but I use a Lee push through resizer and it works quite well. I haven't had much in the way of spring back issues at all.

[sthwestvictoria]

The business is still there and is a really awesome firearm store; it is only about an hour and a half away.

Then certainly geographically it is quite possible the rifle passed through the shop if it is so close to where the rifle was found.

The friend you obtained the rifle from doesn't have any knowledge about the rifles historical provenance?

[elk hunter]

There's a very good article in the latest "Rifle"magazine. If you can get your hands on a copy it would be informative.

By the way I have a model 1910 that I shoot full service loads in with absolutely no problems.

[zuke]

Post a pic of a fired and live rd side by side and we'll have a better idea.
I got my Ross converted at EPP's about 15 year's ago.

[Texinoz]

I hate flogging a dead horse, but I thought you might be interested in seeing a pic of just how "generous" of a chamber my Ross Rifle has. It is well known that there are many different specs to which the .303 British have been and a picture is worth a thousand words. The first brass is factory new brass from Winchester. Please note where the shoulder is and the length of the neck. The second (loaded with 8gr 800x for fireforming) brass has been full length sized and the boolit has been crimped. Notice the differences in the shape of the brass. The third brass is after the round had been fired. The neck shape completely blew out and all rounds were an extremely hard extraction. A boolit of the same size (.311) just falls out with lots of space to spare. The fourth brass is after the neck only was sized, and lastly the final brass is after brass was reloaded with the same 800x charge and re-fired. Please note the complete difference in the size / shape of the neck throughout the process. In the final load and shoot it should be noted that the brass extracted as it should with no difficulties and no further mi-shaping of the brass. It is apparent that it will take me a while (and many hard extractions) to get a couple boxes of brass ready for this rifle and this rifle alone. I am hoping the end will justify the means to keep this old beauty alive.
97108

I think you have a ~.303 Improved (Eppstein) chamber...

[KenT7021]

Check to see if the barrel is marked LC for enlarged chamber.I have three Mk II's and two have the enlarged chamber done to handle British made ammo.They apparently weren't done with a standardized reamer.

[Gewehr-Guy]

Ken , was that done by the importers, or by individual gunsmiths ? I'll try to remember that info when shopping for a Lee Enfield.

[Markopolo]

sounds like fun

[john.k]

AS just about anyone interested knows ,the E chamber was an attempt to get the rifle to eject a fired case ....in shape .its variable somewhat ,but looks a bit like a 8x56 Mannlicher .......Basically ,any military Ross with the CEF roundel will likely be enlarged ,and will be stamped on the reinforce with a large E,EC,or rarely LC............The US govt bought some 1905s as training rifles,and when surplussed ,some of these were rechambered to 30-06 by dealers to sell them off......Any Ross has greatly increased in value of late ,a recent sale of a Mk111B on GB was over $2300.

[Reverend Al]

A couple of years ago a nearby ammo and components distributor had some pulled Russian SKS bullets at a very reasonable price so I bought 2,000 of them for "plinker" bullets in .303 British, 7.62x54R, and 7.65 Argentine. They are 123 grain FMJ's that mike at .312". Just before the world went crazy I loaded some of them into 5 round test loads to try in my Longbranch No. 4 MK 1 .303, so of course I haven't been able to shoot them yet. Hopefully things will get back to normal sometime soon so that I can get out to the range and test fire some of these!

https://i.imgur.com/ptGowJN.jpg

[Superomni]

I have a Ross 1905 and Lee SMLE that are both sporterized unfortunately. The Ross is a tackdriver while the Enfield is lacking. I have had success with reloading for the rifles and recently have casted a bunch with the LEE mold that I am excited to try once this Corona Virus is over!