Help!!!! Just got into casting and my 158g swc's are 166 and lead the barrell

[kungfustyle]

I got into casting to reload my M48 Mauser. Followed instructions on the cast bullets for military rifles and was underway. Used Lee mold and tumble Alox/johnsonwax lube for the gc boolits. 16 g of 2400 and off they go. I can ring an 8" steel gong at 100yards all day. I used Linotype and ww for the alloy. So I had my set up and I had some success. So I started on to 357 that slugs to .357 and I bought the sizer and 6 cavity molds for 158g swc and 148g wc also Lee. Melted down some ww ingots and casted about 1000 boolits. After sizing and 2nd tumble lube they weighed about 60% at 166g and 30% 165g. Took them to the range today and they did good on my starting load of 3.7 g of Unique but I had a few key the target at 4.1 and 3.9 I got home and I had lead in my barrel. I haven't had that happen with the alox/wax tumble lube before. What happened any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I did read somewhere that you needed to add more tin to the alloy, could that have done it? My alloy had a 10 or 11 Bn hardness.

[Deep Six]

3.7 sounds like a really low charge for Unique in .38 special. That would be a Bullseye level charge. As for the leading, it's probably a bullet fitment issue.

[Hogdaddy]

What are you sizing them at?? Chamber size I hope.. ; )
H/D

[badbob454]

m48 mauser isn't it an 8mm .323-.325 diameter? .......357 would be for a 35 caliber or a 38 /357. or am I missing something???

[ku4hx]

m48 mauser isn't it an 8mm .323-.325 diameter? .......357 would be for a 35 caliber or a 38 /357. or am I missing something???

Mine certainly is. I can't imagine a 35 caliber class of boolit going into the case much less actually chambering successfully. Something just ain't right here ... references to both rifle and revolver in the same post.
http://surplusrifle.com/yugom48/index.asp

[Goatwhiskers]

Guys, the OP started with 8mm, then moved on to his next caliber, .357. To the OP, what did you size your boolits to and what are you shooting them in? Need more info to help solve your problem, shouldn't be leading like that. GW

[dragon813gt]

It reads like the OP bought a .357 sizer for a .357 bore. The bullet is to small which will lead to leading. Get a .358 or .359 sizer.

[pipehand]

I'm reading that the OP has a mold for his 8mm and also, 6 cavity molds in 158 swc and 148 grain wc for 357/38SPL.

KungFuStyle, you might try running those boolits unsized, after you clean out the leading, and any previous copper fouling that may have existed before you started with the cast.

At the low pressures you're running, the boolits may be too hard to obturate, or "slug up" in the cylinder, thereby letting hot powder gasses jet around the boolit. If you use a larger diameter boolit, it will seal the hot gasses behind it.

Back when I first started casting, I had traded into a Ruger Blackhawk in 45LongColt. The only boolits I had were ones sized to .452 for my 1911. The BlackHawk had oversized cylinder throats, and boy did that pistol lead. I'm talking plated.

Not knowing much at all about boolit fit, I decided that I might be able to solve the problem by using a harder boolit, so I water dropped a batch. That was worse. If the softer boolit leaded like it was plating the bore, the harder ones made it look like the bore was tinned and soldered.

Your 158 grain mold dropping at 165 is not unusual. Unless you're having trouble with mold fillout, adding tin isn't necessary.

Congratulations on your first post. I hope I could be of help.

[kungfustyle]

I got the data from the Lyman's handbook for 170g. My Boolits were casting out at 166 and the 3.7 shot at a two inch group freehand from 10 yards.

[kungfustyle]

I'm reading that the OP has a mold for his 8mm and also, 6 cavity molds in 158 swc and 148 grain wc for 357/38SPL.

KungFuStyle, you might try running those boolits unsized, after you clean out the leading, and any previous copper fouling that may have existed before you started with the cast.

At the low pressures you're running, the boolits may be too hard to obturate, or "slug up" in the cylinder, thereby letting hot powder gasses jet around the boolit. If you use a larger diameter boolit, it will seal the hot gasses behind it.

Back when I first started casting, I had traded into a Ruger Blackhawk in 45LongColt. The only boolits I had were ones sized to .452 for my 1911. The BlackHawk had oversized cylinder throats, and boy did that pistol lead. I'm talking plated.

Not knowing much at all about boolit fit, I decided that I might be able to solve the problem by using a harder boolit, so I water dropped a batch. That was worse. If the softer boolit leaded like it was plating the bore, the harder ones made it look like the bore was tinned and soldered.

Your 158 grain mold dropping at 165 is not unusual. Unless you're having trouble with mold fillout, adding tin isn't necessary.

Congratulations on your first post. I hope I could be of help.

The bore slugs at .357 and I have a sizer to .358 and checked with the calipers and they did come out at .3585 so that's in specs.

I used molds for the 357/38 sp. I usually shoot retail cast bullets from Missouri but wanted to try this out now that I had the set up.
I will try some unsiezed and take my cleaning kit to the range, to see when the leading occurs.
Thanks for the info.

[kungfustyle]

Guys, the OP started with 8mm, then moved on to his next caliber, .357. To the OP, what did you size your boolits to and what are you shooting them in? Need more info to help solve your problem, shouldn't be leading like that. GW
I'm shooting a S&W 357. I did size them to .358 and my barrel slugs at .357. And that's what I thought, that's why I'm here. At first I loaded some of the swc at 4.2 unique (my pet load for 158 Missouri boolits) and I could feel the brass starting to grab the cylinder. So I weighed the boolits (165 and 166g) and went to they Lyman handbook and looked up the load for 170 and started there. 3.7,3.9 and 4.1. The book lists 4.2 as the max w/ unique. Tumble lube w/ Alox, sized at .358 and retumbled w/ alox/wax.

[res45]

Keyholing and leading in a revolver are pretty much the signs of an undersized bullet. My Ruger BH in 357 will do that about 50% of the time with .358 dia. swaged or sized cast bullet. I solved that problem by slugging the cylinder throats on the revolver and sizing the bullets to .359" and all was well.

Lee molds tend to cast a bit larger than advertized at least mine do,which is a plus for my needs and I can simply size the bullets to the desired dia. A couple of my Lee 38 cal. TL molds don't get sized at all and shoot just fine as is.

Cast bullet weights can vary for the advertized spec. on the mold especially if it cast larger and your using an alloy that's different than the mfg. designed the molds around. Mold fill out as well as slight changes in your alloy batches when refilling the pot can affect weights as well if your ingots are from different batches made a different times.

Tin will aid in mold fill out but I hardly ever use it or have found a need to as long as my molds and alloy are up to the correct temps. I only use Tin to harden up some pure lead a couple BHN for making HP or softer hunting bullets for the rifles.

I think your main problem is that your bullets are to small.

[williamwaco]

Kung-

I understand
you are loading for the .357 mag
It slugs .357
You have a BNH of 10-11
You are sizing .358
You are using alox/wax ( may I assume the 45/45/10? )
You load is 3.9 to 4.1 grains of Unique.
You are getting a few keyholes.
You are getting leading

1. Your BNH is very good
2. You lube is not the problem.
3. Your bullet is too small. It should be .002 to .003 larger than the bore.
(.358 would probably work OK if you load were producing even .38 Special pressures )
4. Your bullet weighs 166gr
5. You load is seriously too low.
It is not generating more than 11,000 PSI.
It is not going more than 600fps
That is not enough pressure to obturate the bore
That is not enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. By 50 yards they are going to be tumbling like rocks.

Alliant suggests 5.2 grains Unique for the .38 Special. ( I would not exceed 5.0 )
Alliant suggests 6.0 for the .357 ( A load I find mild )
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=28&bulletid=30
Lee Second Addition approves 6.0 grains Unique with a 200 gr lead bullet. ( in the .357)

6. Note. .38 special loads are quoted for .38 special cases. .357 loads are quoted for .357 cases.
DO NOT LOAD .357 LOADS IN .38 SPECIAL CASES.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to the WWs. Lube with LLA as per Lee's instructions and size with the .358 sizer, it will be ok.

Perhaps I missed it but are you using 357 cases or 38 SPL cases?

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

Boost the powder charge to 5 grains in the 357 cases or 4.5 in the Special cases and report back.

[Redhorse702]

I have a related question.....
I am casting/swaging/gas checking (Hornady 35 cal) to .358 for my Remmie 35. my mold is a Lee gas check 358. My lead is wheel weights. My groups are 1 inch in my 336C with a Skinner peep at 50 yards. No leading... my bullets with gas check are NOT 158 grain any more.. they are 163 grains consistently. my load is 27 gr IMR 4198. Is this a problem that my bullets are actually heavier than the 150 grains that IMR talks about. I loaded 2 grains under their chart for a jacketed bullet... no leading with the Lee alox gooey lube..

[kungfustyle]

Add 2% tin to the WWs. Lube with LLA as per Lee's instructions and size with the .358 sizer, it will be ok.

Perhaps I missed it but are you using 357 cases or 38 SPL cases?

Larry Gibson

I'm using 38 sp cases.

[kungfustyle]

Thanks for the help I'm going to try to cast some and load them w/o sizing to see if that helps.

[Redhorse702]

BTW I amnew to the forum and cannot figure out how to chose an appropriate thread for my questions.. help!


I have a related question.....
I am casting/swaging/gas checking (Hornady 35 cal) to .358 for my Remmie 35. my mold is a Lee gas check 358. My lead is wheel weights. My groups are 1 inch in my 336C with a Skinner peep at 50 yards. No leading... my bullets with gas check are NOT 158 grain any more.. they are 163 grains consistently. my load is 27 gr IMR 4198. Is this a problem that my bullets are actually heavier than the 150 grains that IMR talks about. I loaded 2 grains under their chart for a jacketed bullet... no leading with the Lee alox gooey lube..

[MtGun44]

Make your own thread.

If it is a pistol problem, go to the pistol section, if it is a rifle problem, go to one of the
rifle sections. In general, ask it here.

Bill

[MT Gianni]

I have a related question.....
I am casting/swaging/gas checking (Hornady 35 cal) to .358 for my Remmie 35. my mold is a Lee gas check 358. My lead is wheel weights. My groups are 1 inch in my 336C with a Skinner peep at 50 yards. No leading... my bullets with gas check are NOT 158 grain any more.. they are 163 grains consistently. my load is 27 gr IMR 4198. Is this a problem that my bullets are actually heavier than the 150 grains that IMR talks about. I loaded 2 grains under their chart for a jacketed bullet... no leading with the Lee alox gooey lube..
No it is not a problem. The answer might be scale issues, weigh some factory bullets, or just a different alloy than speced by the MFG. The gun seems to like it so should you. Welcome to the forum.

[kungfustyle]

Turns out I need a 38/357 throating reamer. A friend of mine measured the chambers to my revolver and they are .353, .354,.356,.357,.3575,.3550. I had no Idea that could even be the culprit. Once I get all this finished I will post results. Thank you everyone.

[Echo]

I was going to suggest checking the throats, but see you have done it, and found the major problem. Those are WAY undersized (mostly), and are swaging your boolits down before they even get to the forcing cone. I size my 357 boolits to .359, and am a happy camper

[MtGun44]

How were they measured? Be VERY leery of ANY measurement other than
slugging (remove cyl first) or gauge pins. Inside measurements with
calipers are VERY inconsistent and unreliable and doing this unnecessarily
is a irreversible mistake.

This work requires consistent measurement to .0001" and no caliper is
up to this, either measuring push thru slugs or direct measurement,
ESPECIALLY inside measurement. This needs to be done with a .0001"
micrometer, not caliper or gauge pins. I doubt your numbers are accurate.

What revolver are you talking about?

Bill

[462]

MtGun44's post says much.

Six different cylinder throat diameters, varying as much as .0045" seems more than a little suspect, and .353" is unusally small.

If you are measuring the throats with calipers, the measurements are nowhere accurate, as a flat tool can't accurately measure a round hole. either measure a slug with an outside micrometer, or the throats with an inside micrometer, both accurate to .0001".

[wv109323]

Let me throw in some load development that I have recently done with the .38 Special.
I wanted to develop a load to use in the newer NRA Distinguished Revolver competition. This requires shooting off hand at 50 yards. The ten ring is about 4" at fifty yards so you need a very accurate load to be competitive. The required bullet is a lead 158 SWC or RN. My cast comes from a NEI 158 SWC 2 cavity mold. My lead is mostly a mixture of range scrap and wheel weights. I throw in some tin to make it cast a little better. Boolits are sized .358 and lubed with Red Carnabua(sp) from White label.
My pistol is a S&W Model 14-6 with a .357 slugged bore. I tried numerous loads from 3.0 to 3.5 gns. of Bullseye, 4.0 Unique , 3.8 gns of WW231 , 3.3 gns of Solo 1000. All these loads were less than satisfactory for my requirements. Groups were between 4 to 10" at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest.
I was told to speed the bullets up to get groups. With 4.5 gns. of WW231 my groups were 1 5/8 X1" at 50 Yards. With 4.0 gns. of Bullseye my groups were 2 7/16 by 1 1/2". These are 10 shot groups.
It appears that the 158 gn. bullet needs some velocity to stabilize.

[44man]

8070280703In general it is hard to find load info for cast so you just use jacketed info to start and that is fine. However most jacketed loads are lower then cast can be shot with. There is less friction and pressures can run lower with cast. Even boolit design can affect how much powder can be used and only your gun can tell you because just a design change can force you to use a LOWER charge then jacketed. Confusing---YES! It took me a month before I pulled the trigger on my 45-70 revolver because there is nothing for a 10" barrel or the revolver. Most powders for the rifle do not work.
Almost all leading is caused by boolit skid past the base in the rifling, it opens the rifling marks to leave gaps for gas to jet through. Soft boolits with a fast pressure rise using fast powder is the worst, can even slump the boolit out of shape. It does no good at all to over expand a boolit when it still skids the rifling.
Starting size matters so if you use soft and the brass is sizing the boolits down when you seat them, you are running backwards. Soft lead that slumps can blow the lube out the gap along with lead. You will compress the lube grooves before the boolit is in the bore. Very common to find the front of cylinders and frames coated with lead from wad cutters.
Hard boolits do not promote leading but the wrong lube for the revolver will. I can't use alox in any form. That silly coating can't last the length of a barrel. I still think it burns and leaves ash to pick up more lead. Lube should not smoke and stink. Lube for the revolver should not be slippery either, it must have substance and grip. Felix lube has proven best for me.
Twist is always over looked in the revolver. A boolit MUST be spun to stability and every boolit design must have the correct velocity. Short barrels will reduce the boolit and powder choices because velocity can't be reached for stability, it is why smaller calibers work OK with short barrels.
Of all the guns ever made, the revolver is the hardest, yet I shoot mine to 500 meters (547 yards) and hit steel and have hundreds of 3/4" to 1/2" groups at 100 yards with out of box revolvers. At this time I have a harder time making a rifle shoot cast that good.
The pictures are a golf ball shot with a revolver and a shotgun shell at 100 yards. The shotgun shell shot with my BFR .500 JRH, 440 gr PB at 1350 fps, Ultra Dot from bags.
I shot the ball at 50 yards with my SBH and the RD 265 gr boolit. Also Ultra Dot, I can't see open sights any more. Boolits are all water dropped WW metal, 20 to 22 BHN, no leading and I don't clean for as long as 3 years, just the cylinder pins and holes for new STP lube.

[44man]

I have just seen throats out of specs and yes, they all must be over groove size. That gun needs fixed.

[kungfustyle]

I have just seen throats out of specs and yes, they all must be over groove size. That gun needs fixed.
If they still let people borrow the reamer from this forum, I'm on the list. If not I will either buy one or rent one to get it done. I did measure w/ calipers, but will use the appropriate pilot. Also I'm replacing the hand on my S&W to insure timing. After that if I'm outside of a quarter sized group, I'll be fit to be tied. Thanks for all your help. I'm kinda glad that its not my lube or alloy....I had about 2k worth of boolits that I would hate to redo. I will post results as soon as I get everything done.

[462]

"I did measure w/ calipers..."

Why not buy the appropriate measuring tool to determine if a reamer is even needed?

What is the symptom for the hand replacement?

[kungfustyle]

"I did measure w/ calipers..."

Why not buy the appropriate measuring tool to determine if a reamer is even needed?

What is the symptom for the hand replacement?
Timing is starting to go and I found one on Midwayusa.com for $12. If I'm fixing it I might as add this task on. I can slug the cylinders however, at this point it seems moot. Seems there is to much evidence pointing that way.

['74 sharps]

8070280703In general it is hard to find load info for cast so you just use jacketed info to start and that is fine. However most jacketed loads are lower then cast can be shot with. There is less friction and pressures can run lower with cast. Even boolit design can affect how much powder can be used and only your gun can tell you because just a design change can force you to use a LOWER charge then jacketed. Confusing---YES! It took me a month before I pulled the trigger on my 45-70 revolver because there is nothing for a 10" barrel or the revolver. Most powders for the rifle do not work.
Almost all leading is caused by boolit skid past the base in the rifling, it opens the rifling marks to leave gaps for gas to jet through. Soft boolits with a fast pressure rise using fast powder is the worst, can even slump the boolit out of shape. It does no good at all to over expand a boolit when it still skids the rifling.
Starting size matters so if you use soft and the brass is sizing the boolits down when you seat them, you are running backwards. Soft lead that slumps can blow the lube out the gap along with lead. You will compress the lube grooves before the boolit is in the bore. Very common to find the front of cylinders and frames coated with lead from wad cutters.
Hard boolits do not promote leading but the wrong lube for the revolver will. I can't use alox in any form. That silly coating can't last the length of a barrel. I still think it burns and leaves ash to pick up more lead. Lube should not smoke and stink. Lube for the revolver should not be slippery either, it must have substance and grip. Felix lube has proven best for me.
Twist is always over looked in the revolver. A boolit MUST be spun to stability and every boolit design must have the correct velocity. Short barrels will reduce the boolit and powder choices because velocity can't be reached for stability, it is why smaller calibers work OK with short barrels.
Of all the guns ever made, the revolver is the hardest, yet I shoot mine to 500 meters (547 yards) and hit steel and have hundreds of 3/4" to 1/2" groups at 100 yards with out of box revolvers. At this time I have a harder time making a rifle shoot cast that good.
The pictures are a golf ball shot with a revolver and a shotgun shell at 100 yards. The shotgun shell shot with my BFR .500 JRH, 440 gr PB at 1350 fps, Ultra Dot from bags.
I shot the ball at 50 yards with my SBH and the RD 265 gr boolit. Also Ultra Dot, I can't see open sights any more. Boolits are all water dropped WW metal, 20 to 22 BHN, no leading and I don't clean for as long as 3 years, just the cylinder pins and holes for new STP lube.

Alox does not burn off the bullet. I shoot a S&W 27 with a 8 3/8" barrel at steels set up @ 100 yds, and have found many of my bullets at the target looking like a lead coin, and the Alox is still on one side, the bullet base, and paint from the steel is on the other side, the nose. If it's not burning off from direct contact with the powder burn, it's not going to burn off from the sides.

[kungfustyle]

OK...took a while but I have a great range report. I reamed the chambers with the reamer from this forum, sized bullets to .3585, used llstuff and Johnson's paste wax mix to lube wc tl boolits. loaded up 5 each with a .2 spread of Tightgroup, Bullseye and Unique. 2.9 and 3.3 of Tightgroup and 3.6 of Unique gave me one ragged hole to smile at.... Thanks guys for you help.

[marada]

i use boolits dropped from my mold without sizing ,tumble lubed and 2.8 gns of bullseye and get pretty good groups.