Velocity with wad under plain base bullets?

[GrizzLeeBear]

With the cost of gas checks going up and the desire to use bullets that do not need them, I have been doing some searching and reading about how fast plain based bullets can go. Depending on bullet fit & barrel conditions the concensus looks like 1200 - 1400 fps is the upper limits for a WW plain based bullet. I have shot gas checked bullet in excess of 2000 fps with good accuracy and no leading. However, there are also lots of comments stating that a PB bullet can go faster if you "protect the base". My idea is that if you used a thin cardboard, plastic, etc. wad under a PB bullet you could get good results at a little higher velocity. So you could get something like this:

Plain based - +/- 1300 fps max.
Plain based w/ wad - +/- 1700 fps max.
gas checked - 1800+ fps

Specifically, I will be working up some loads for a 10" Contender in 357 mag. & the Lee 358-158-rnfp for IHMSA silhouettes and hunting. With 158 gr. bullets you can get velocities up around 1500 fps. which may prove too much for the plain based bullet. I plan on getting a 14" barrel in the future which would make for even higher velocities. I do have gas check molds and I am not trying to make the 357 into something its not, just trying to get full potential from this barrel without having to use gas checks.
So, what would be a good, cheap material for wads? Would something like poster board work? I have seen mention of Low Density plastic wads, would those work better?

[Bass Ackward]

So, what would be a good, cheap material for wads? Would something like poster board work? I have seen mention of Low Density plastic wads, would those work better?



People cut up coffee can lids, cardboard milk containers, aluminum cans, almost adinfinitum. Then you can buy wads already made and lubed. Wax cookies were popular for awhile. These were wax sheets that you pressed down over the case and the mouth cut the wad.

Does it make a difference? Depends on the conditions. What I find is that a wad helps wipe out the bore of left over powder / lube. So if your load needed that lube, you probably do worse with the wad. If the wad is preventing obturation of the base, then you probably see better results.

Ask Bob (45 2.1) about using the aluminum checks. He has great success with this technique. I would think that it would possibly be the best way to go if you want to push a PB slug.

[Ohio Rusty]

Wouldn't plastic melt and leave molten goo in the barrel? My only experience is with blackpowder using a plastic wad, but the wad melts leaving plastic that needs scrubbed out. Cardboard wads would work very well if you had a punch that would punch them perfectly for the inside of the shell. They would be cheap to make. Lots of guys like BP over powder and over shot wads made from cereal boxes. I have quite a few SWC's that are not gas checked. I've hesitated using them because of that. I'd be interested in knowing the results if you try some wad below the bullet experiments.
Ohio Rusty

[Ricochet]

Depends on the load. And the plastic.

Shotgunners shoot with plastic wads all the time and don't get plastic coated bores. Same with muzzleloaders shooting with plastic sabots.

And there have been 4000+ FPS plastic sabot smokeless rifle loads on the market.

[45 2.1]

However, there are also lots of comments stating that a PB bullet can go faster if you "protect the base". My idea is that if you used a thin cardboard, plastic, etc. wad under a PB bullet you could get good results at a little higher velocity. So you could get something like this:

Plain based - +/- 1300 fps max. Up to 1500 fps
Plain based w/ wad - +/- 1700 fps max. Tested to 2000 fps
gas checked - 1800+ fps

Specifically, I will be working up some loads for a 10" Contender in 357 mag. & the Lee 358-158-rnfp for IHMSA silhouettes and hunting. With 158 gr. bullets you can get velocities up around 1500 fps. which may prove too much for the plain based bullet. The wax wads might work fine for this. I plan on getting a 14" barrel in the future which would make for even higher velocities. I do have gas check molds and I am not trying to make the 357 into something its not, just trying to get full potential from this barrel without having to use gas checks.
So, what would be a good, cheap material for wads? Would something like poster board work? I have seen mention of Low Density plastic wads, would those work better? This depends on the pressure level you want to shoot at and how hard (not really a good idea to have really hard boolits here) your boolits are. All the above work, just at different levels. Try the wax wads first as its the easiest one to do. Tablet backing, vegetable fiber wads such as the BP folks use work also as does LDPE wads cut from coffee can lids. The main thing to remember is the wad will reduce some obturation (moreso the thicker and stiffer it is) and it (if big enough) will stop any heat from getting to the boolit base. The wad is what retards or stops gas cutting which is the reason for inaccuracy in PB boolits above a certain pressure/velocity level. You will have to experiment to get it right with your setup.

[Bret4207]

I knew it! It's only a matter of time until someones brings back IPCO wads! History repeats itself........

[Bullshop]

I sometimes use a product called candle sensaitions granulated wax. This is a finely granulated (tiny spheres)candle making wax from the hobby shop. It is intended to be poured as is into a mold then heated to take the mold shape. It contains a mold release adjent that does seem to help keep lead from sticking.
I use Lee dippers to add mesured volume to charged cases. Just add enough that it will be compressed when the boolit is seated. It compresses very easily. For some PB loads that have been on the hot side and leaving some color in the barrel this stuff has cleaned it up and turned a questionable load into a good one.
BIC/BS

[dubber123]

A pre-lubed felt type material may work, I have a little experience with a short 21" barreled .54 muzzleloader that shoots a pure lead 450 gr. Plains bullet to 1,400 fps. with absolutely no leading. I think its due to the amount of lube used, and the felt wad I seat under the bullet. 1,400 fps. is alot faster than alot of people report with pure lead without problems, but I have never had even a hint of lead.

[JeffinNZ]

This is a 100m group with my .38/303. PB 300gr BHN 8 bullet over 37gr W748 for 1670fps. I used a heavy card wad only under the bullet; about 60 thou.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/38303group.jpg

[Dale53]

The "sweet spot" in Schuetzen shooting (all done with plain base lead bullets) is 1400-1500 fps. Most breech seat using wad of some type. The most successful Schuetzen shooter I know only uses Floral Foam as a wad pushed down on the powder (it does increase the "ringing force" but he shoots a modern chrome moly barrel and has had no problems to date).

Point is, 1500 fps is common with good barrels when using plain base lead bullets.

Dale53

[BerdanIII]

I have used CF Ventures wax wads in the .357 Magnum under a 158-gr.swaged lead hollowpoint (probably from Zero, but I'm not sure) with 13.5 grains of 2400 and gotten NO leading in a 6" Model 28 S & W. These wads will also clean out the leading left by other loads in about three shots. I don't know what velocity I was getting (I didn't own a chrono then), but it was probably the book number for that load. The wads themselves were good for a little more barrel length; I often found little paper-thin disks of the wads stuck sideways in the target at 15 yards, usually with a few powder grains embedded in them. Two wads may give you more protection, but the powder charge would probably have to be cut. The maker now says that there should be no air space between the powder charge and the wad, but when I first started using them that was not mentioned. Let us know how it goes.

[testhop]

i remmbera few years back ithink it was remington come out with a 22 bulletin a sabot
in 30-30 3006 and308 the 3006was suppose to have a mv of around 3200 fps so it can be done also you can make wads out of felt
in a strighht wall case you can just cut your wads out and push them down on the powder
i haved used kapoc also i have a lot of it


tom

[pipehand]

I have a press mounted wad punch that I bought through Buffalo Arms ($53 or so) that I use for my 45-70. Buffalo Arms used to list a lot more of them, in .001" increments for several calibers, but now they only list them for each caliber. Mine punches a .461-.462" wad as near as I can measure. I punch them out of Busch beer 12pack cardboard, and it works very well at the pressures I load to. It beats using an arch punch in every way-- very fast. I realize that the 21-28Kpsi my 1425fps loads are going to be low compared to similar velocity loads in a .357mag, but the underbullet card wad has worked for me.

[pdawg_shooter]

Why not paper patch? Pure lead can go to 2200 and 50/50 ww and Linotype I have taken over 3300 in a 300RUM. Its easy, cheep, and gives jacketed bullet performance.

[DonH]

Depends on the load. And the plastic.

Shotgunners shoot with plastic wads all the time and don't get plastic coated bores. Same with muzzleloaders shooting with plastic sabots.

.

Sabots certtainly can leave significant amount of plastic fouling in muzzleloader barrels, even in a very smooth barrel. It is not always easily removed. I have not, however, experienced this with plastic wads in black powder cartridge shooting.

[Dale53]

Hi DonH;
As you no doubt know, I shot BPCR Silhouette for about 15 years. I found that LDPE wads (cut with a press mounted Fred Cornell wad punch) worked beautifully in 40/65, 45/70 and 32/40 with black powder. They seemed to eliminate those unexplained flyers.

Regarding those CV Ventures wads, I have some of those and I also have some Dental Wax in same size sheets. My son is a dentist. The dental wads and CV Venture wads appear to be the exact same thing. I have not yet tried them but intend to do so in the near future.

Dale53

[Ricochet]

remington come out with a 22 bulletin a sabot
in 30-30 3006 and308 the 3006was suppose to have a mv of around 3200 fps

I think the .30-06 Accelerator's claimed MV was more like 4200 FPS. Really fast.

[w30wcf]

I have pushed plain based 150 gr. bullets in the .30-30 first to 2,000 with good results and then to 2,200 f.p.s. also with good accuracy = to g.c. bullets using a .06" thick LDPE (low density polyethylene) wad under the base of the bullet.

I was also able to push an 88 gr. plain based bullet to over 3,000 f.p.s. with decent accuracy.:-D
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=3474

w30wcf

[mauser1959]

Here is an article that I think most of you would enjoy . I think that J Taylor really is a good read and is very knowledgeable.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

[Misfire99]

I'm with pdawg_shooter on this one. Put a paper jacket on the thing. I have read many claims of 3,000+ fps with 30cal paper jacketed bullets. It's on my list of things to do this winter. But the first thing to do is get my Pedersoli Sharps falling block off layaway. I found it, in like new condition, at a pawn shop for $700 dollars. The only thing I have that's not for sale to pay for this are my kids. If you want my wife make an offer. But I have to worn you see can be a real PITA sometimes.