Ideal VS Lyman

[Ghugly]

I just had my first casting session with an Ideal 429421. I was stunned, then thrilled. The boolits are just about too pretty for words. Now I'm interested in getting a 4 gang mould. Is the Lyman 429421 the same as the Ideal 429421? How does the quality compare? The ideal is dropping .432's at 256gr using air cooled WW's.

[mooman76]

Lyman at some time either changed their name from Ideal to Lyman or they bought them out. I think it was the latter!

[beagle]

It has been my experience that Ideal moulds were more on the generous size than are the Lymans even though they were made (supposedly) using the same cherries. Hope your new four banger works well for you./beagle

[GLL]

Be aware that the design of the 429421 has changed quite a bit over the years. A modern 4-cavity is often a lot different than an old Ideal single cavity.

I like them all but they are not the same mould design just because they are maked 429421! :)

Jerry

[floodgate]

The original Ideal Manufacturing Co. was founded by John Barlow in 1884; he sold out to Marlin when he retired in 1910, and they made the Ideal line until they got caught up in WW I production at the end of 1915. Ideal was pretty well dormant until late 1925, when the Lyman Gun Sight Corp. (founded by William Lyman on the basis of his tang peep sight design in 1878) was induced to buyout the rights to the Ideal line. They converted the original Ideal mould designs - where the handles and the blocks were in one piece - to the present "loose-block" style around 1928. But they regarded the mould and tool business as a separate operation from their sight (and Cutts compensator) "mainstream" business until sometime in the 1970's, when they started stamping the moulds "LYMAN" instead of "IDEAL". The moulds themselves did not change, except for the (not-so) minor variations as old cherries wore out and were re-sharpened or replaced by new-made ones (apparently "by eye" in some cases). And they have continued to drop older designs (too many!), and add new ones (some pretty weird, and short-lived) over the years. That's a capsule history in a nutshell.

floodgate

[MtGun44]

Lyman redesigned the Keith bullet somewhere along the line.

The most obvious difference is the semi-circular cross section
lube groove in the later Lyman molds, where the original design
has a flat bottomed lube groove with slightly angled sides. I
have even seen one case of a true square sided lube groove
in one Keith design, meaning 90 deg corners.

I have at least 6 copies of 429421, in both flavors. I have had
good results with each, but prefer the 'square' (actually trapzoidal)
lube groove bullets as they hold more lube.

I'd guess your Ideal is the original flat bottomed lube groove
design, and many (most??) Lyman molds I've seen are the
semicircular (round bottomed) groove which Elmer railed
about for years as 'ruining his design'.

Holy cow! I just went out to Lyman's web site to see if they
still offered the 4 cav 429421, and the image shown has the
flat bottomed large capacity lube groove!!! If this is actually
what they are selling it is great news! They do offer the 4 cav
429421 (apparently a sqaure bottomed lube groove - but I'm
still a bit skeptical) as a standard item, so you can get it from
the normal channels like MidSouth or Midway or Graf.

Graf says they are in stock for 74.39 plus shipping.

If you get one, please report whether the lube groove is
flat bottomed on the current production.

Bill

[45 2.1]

Lyman redesigned the Keith bullet somewhere along the line.

The most obvious difference is the semi-circular cross section
lube groove in the later Lyman molds, where the original design
has a flat bottomed lube groove with slightly angled sides. I
have even seen one case of a true square sided lube groove
in one Keith design, meaning 90 deg corners.

I have at least 6 copies of 429421, in both flavors. I have had
good results with each, but prefer the 'square' (actually trapzoidal)
lube groove bullets as they hold more lube.

I'd guess your Ideal is the original flat bottomed lube groove
design, and many (most??) Lyman molds I've seen are the
semicircular (round bottomed) groove which Elmer railed
about for years as 'ruining his design'.

Holy cow! I just went out to Lyman's web site to see if they
still offered the 4 cav 429421, and the image shown has the
flat bottomed large capacity lube groove!!! If this is actually
what they are selling it is great news! They do offer the 4 cav
429421 (apparently a sqaure bottomed lube groove - but I'm
still a bit skeptical) as a standard item, so you can get it from
the normal channels like MidSouth or Midway or Graf.

Graf says they are in stock for 74.39 plus shipping.

If you get one, please report whether the lube groove is
flat bottomed on the current production.

Bill

The newer 4 cavities have the flat bottomed groove, Lymans idea of it, not Keiths.