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Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 05:34 PM
I want to start by saying that I have read all of the threads related to this subject. iv been powder coating my bullets with great success, but it is time consuming and I have been looking for a better or faster if you will and cheaper way to coat and shoot.
heres what iv come up with:

I took info from the hi tech instructions along with the piglet method and class kote, weiderlader, and any other thread that I thought could help me.

Now we all have been doing the hippy hippy shakes with our bullets in the bucket, for me its a butter tub, and the challenges seen to be in my opnion 1. cost, the epoxy paint is expensive because you cant just by a little of it, you have to get it by the gallon. 2. even coating, we all have been coating with our favorite coating method, but as far as I can tell the powder coat method gives great even coats.

I bought some hi tech from bayou bullets, but I have loaded hi tech coated bullets before with great success, so I have tried to get the most for my money and have great looking bullets to, its a tough task.
but what if I told you that the epoxy coating that iv been trying is readily avalible at most parts stores for under 10 bucks?
the pictures that I post are of my under 10 buck coating, that is tumble lubed on the bullet and baked for 10 minutes at 300 degrees three times, and based on the smash test that we all like to see, it seems to be a good coating.

these are coated with the under 10 buck coating, and went through the resizer with ease
79825798267982779828

as you can see I did the smash test and no flaking at all. now I have not shot any yet but ill be shooting them tomorrow to see how they work. wouldent it be great if we could just run out to the parts house and pick up some bullet coating for under 10? I know your asking what is it, well it might not hold up when fired, so I don't want to say just yet, but ill post good or bad about it after shooting.

jmort
08-21-2013, 05:38 PM
You will make many people happy and a couple/few people cry like stuck pigs. I would be happy.

fastglock
08-21-2013, 05:55 PM
Ill be watching this , thanks [smilie=2:

Do some mag dumps .. see if the coating can withstand the heat.

Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 06:05 PM
Thats exactly what I had planed.

BBQJOE
08-21-2013, 06:30 PM
If you're tumbling and baking three times, what's the dif?
For $36 in hi-tek, you can coat at least 12,000 bullets. How far does a can of your under 10 buck epoxy go?

Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 07:06 PM
Whats the difference? Well as far as I can tell there are 3.
1st is cost. That half a liter of hi tech is not $36, its $36 + shipping, so for me it cost $47. The bottle of stuff I got here locally was $9 with tax, and its the same volume of coating. 2nd im still waiting for my hi tech green to come in, the stuff I got locally I left the store with.and 3rd, well I have to upload a pic so you can see the difference. But its all mute if it leads my barrel when fired.

shadowcaster
08-21-2013, 07:15 PM
Anxiously awaiting details and results!! :)

Shad

Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Well, I should have both details and results, good or bad tomorrow.

jmort
08-21-2013, 07:29 PM
"the epoxy paint is expensive because you cant just by a little of it, you have to get it by the gallon."

Hi-Tek
1 Liter Kit $68.00 + FedEx shipping - So this cost north of $2.50 per ounce (Liter is a little less than 34 ounces)

Not sure how much Hi-Tek product you get for $36.00 as Buyou Bullets does not list it. Assuming $47.00 as noted then $2.76 an ounce delivered.


Klass Kote
32 ounce "Kit" $49.80 + shipping - So this costs north of $1.75 per ounce


So you don't have to buy a gallon but two part epoxy ain't cheap.

"Well, I should have both details and results, good or bad tomorrow."


Good - looking forward to it. If it works, as I said, there will be many happy shooters and a couple/few people crying like stuck pigs.

bangerjim
08-21-2013, 07:40 PM
So please tell us the brand of the stuff you are using! And where in PHX you are getting it.

There a lot of us desert rats on this forum.

I am always looking for "something new and exciting".

bangerjim

xacex
08-21-2013, 07:44 PM
You using caliper paint for this? It should work just fine. I think it is about the same as class kote epoxy paint to be honest with you.

Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 07:54 PM
No, its not caliper paint, although I did see some caliper paint by g2 that might work just as good. Its a one part epoxy I guess, it has hardener and the paint in one, the baking helps to cure it, once cured it seems to be just as hard as the powder coat. Ill let everyone know what it is after I shoot it, like I said it might not work, but if it does it would be cheaper and you can coat just about as much.

Azshooter2013
08-21-2013, 07:57 PM
Yea, Donni let me buy a half a liter, so I could try it out. $36 + $11 for shipping.

Gliden07
08-21-2013, 09:32 PM
Got my interest?? Subscribed!

BNE
08-21-2013, 10:14 PM
Please report! I am very interested.

Skip62
08-22-2013, 06:33 PM
subscribed....

slim1836
08-22-2013, 07:02 PM
ditto-subscribed

Azshooter2013
08-23-2013, 12:34 PM
Ok, range report, the good the bad and the ugly.

Yesterday I loaded up a couple hundred of the black bullits using the 10 buck coating, then I went out to my testing range, for you dessert rats, its flatiron mountain, just off i10 &335 ave, there is not really any place to tape a target to out there, but thats usually ok as I have made my own target stand out of pvc pipe. However I was unable to use said target stand, because of the last trip out there with my daughter. I was teaching her to shoot, and that she did, she shot the poles and not the target, and I have not had time to repair it yet. So this report will just be about how the coating worked.

Lets get into it.
I shot 200 rounds of 9mm ammo coated with 10 buck coating, from my g19,, I was looking for any residue from the coating, or any leading at all. I did a couple mag dumps, and after 200 rounds, the barrel was still bright and shinny. Now I did try to take some pics of the barrel but my phone would not focus good enough to see anything. Ill up load pics in a while of the product that I used. Feel free to ask any questions you like, but ill leave you with this, the coating after 200 rounds seemed to work as well as my powder coat bullets.

Joe504
08-23-2013, 12:39 PM
So, proof of concept?

Now, what was the product?

Azshooter2013
08-23-2013, 01:46 PM
As soon as I get home I'll post up the picture of the product.

blueeyephil
08-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Hurry home! I think there is just a bit of interest here.

Don't guess you recovered any bullets to see what they looked like afterwards?

Also what about the smell? I shoot Bayous and get frequent comments about the smell.

Azshooter2013
08-23-2013, 11:51 PM
here it is, don't knock it till you try it. the coating gets as hard as the hi tek coating if applied in the same fashion. Its VHT epoxy paint. not the caliper paint, I did try that for grins, it did not work
its 8.99 at autozone.

80071

I was un able to retrieve any fired bullets but I did spend some time today making a sand catch to do that next time.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:00 AM
here is how I applied it

1. spray just a little bit in the mixing tube. I just sprayed it until I saw a tiny pool of paint.
2. put in 200 9mm 124gr tc boolits, and do the hippy hippy shakes until they start to stick.
3. put them on the screen and let them dry, drying times may vary but in my 120 degree garage it took about 10 minutes.
4. oven bake on 300 for 10 minutes.
5. repeat
6. repeat

jmort
08-24-2013, 12:02 AM
Well there you have it. Seems like there may be a few epoxy paint candidates out there that will avoid the price gouging of some products. Have to try it out. $8.27 with free shipping from Amazon Prime. Way less than a $1.00 an ounce. Checked it out, and there is high praise for it for many applications by users. Thanks for doing us all a favor and testing it out.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:12 AM
since I was confident that the coating worked great, I thought..... yea I know thinking is bad.... but

I wanted to see what other kinds of epoxy paint would work as good, so I made a trip over to my local home depot, where they had white appliance epoxy, the msds on it was exactly as the epoxy paint from autozone, so what the hell right? then thing again, I wanted to see if I could change the color from white to.... we'll try green, then purple. so I went to my local Albertsons and bought food coloring! now I know what you are thinking, but I did change the color, sort of, lets just say anyone want easter eggs?80073

bangerjim
08-24-2013, 12:19 AM
Is that epoxy water based??????

Food grade coloring will not mix with hydrocarbon-based paint! And will not even bond with latex paint either! Believe me I tried it many years ago. The coloring just bleeds out of the paint when it dries.

But the AutoZone stuff looks interesting. Even for non-boolit coating on tools and the such.

bangerjim

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:29 AM
here is a short little video of me resizing my Easter eggs, no lube, and barely any pressure needed

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/wayhijhw0339adm/qJyux20T1W

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:33 AM
the white stuff is really untested, I was just messing around, but I do believe its an oil base epoxy, and it did change the color sort of, but the spots are baked in and don't rub off, also they did pass the smash test and the wipe with acetone. went through the resizer nice too, but I did not shoot the easter eggs, only the black 9mms

xacex
08-24-2013, 12:39 AM
Well there you have it. Seems like there may be a few epoxy paint candidates out there that will avoid the price gouging of some products. Have to try it out. $8.27 with free shipping from Amazon Prime. Way less than a $1.00 an ounce. Checked it out, and there is high praise for it for many applications by users. Thanks for doing us all a favor and testing it out.

6.99$ with prime if you can stand gloss black!

jmort
08-24-2013, 12:47 AM
"6.99$ with prime if you can stand gloss black!"

For me, I'd pay the extra $1.28 to avoid the gloss.

jmort
08-24-2013, 12:55 AM
"...anyone want Easter eggs?"

Like the looks of those. While waiting for you to get us the big "reveal" I saw some white epoxy appliance paint from Rustoleum that is inexpensive, I assume that may be what your Easter eggs are coated with. The pigment/food coloring idea is innovative as well as everything else you are trying. Good work.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 01:49 AM
yep, that's it, at home depot, I think it was 3.49+ tax, not to much, but I was trying for a green bullet, I missed the mark on the green, but they do look interesting.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 01:51 AM
oh, and I kind of like the gloss, but im funny that way, it must be the heat.

Ausglock
08-24-2013, 04:02 AM
This is great info. Well done.

What brand is the appliance epoxy?

fastglock
08-24-2013, 07:04 AM
What's wrong with gloss? I think the gloss makes the boolit size easier for some reason. ......

Maybe it's just me ?

cpileri
08-24-2013, 07:11 AM
i TRIED THE WHITE RUST-OLEUM BRAND AND IT DIDNT WORK. SURE IT PAINTED A BULLET THAT IS STUCK TO THE LEAD, BUT IT FAILED THE SMASH W HAMMER TEST: FLAKED RIGHT OFF,
DID NOT HOLD UP NEAR AS good as in this pic.
sorry abt the all caps,
C-80087



the white stuff is really untested, I was just messing around, but I do believe its an oil base epoxy, and it did change the color sort of, but the spots are baked in and don't rub off, also they did pass the smash test and the wipe with acetone. went through the resizer nice too, but I did not shoot the easter eggs, only the black 9mms

prickett
08-24-2013, 08:54 AM
here is how I applied it

1. spray just a little bit in the mixing tube. I just sprayed it until I saw a tiny pool of paint.
2. put in 200 9mm 124gr tc boolits, and do the hippy hippy shakes until they start to stick.
3. put them on the screen and let them dry, drying times may vary but in my 120 degree garage it took about 10 minutes.
4. oven bake on 300 for 10 minutes.
5. repeat
6. repeat

Sounds like the next test is to see if just two coats would work. Sounds like a trip to Meijers in in my future!

popper
08-24-2013, 09:44 AM
I've not been happy with Rustolium brand stuff for several years. Hope you can test this in rifle.

Skip62
08-24-2013, 09:56 AM
4. oven bake on 300 for 10 minutes.


Why bake it? says no curing necessary on the website. Just curious. If I can leave out baking, I'm a happy camper.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Well, on the vht epoxy directions on the can it says to bake for faster curing, the appliance epoxy does not say to bake it allthough both are basically the same so I just went ahead and did the bake on the white stuff too. I dont think it is rustoleum, its a different brand, ill upload a pic of it in a bit along with another smash test on the easter eggs

crawfobj
08-24-2013, 11:27 AM
This starts to get interesting to me if there is no baking involved. Ate you guys using a toaster oven? Using the one in the house would be hazardous to my health.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 11:31 AM
That would be hazardous to most of our healths. Yes, toaster oven out side in the garage.

jmort
08-24-2013, 11:39 AM
"Why bake it?"

I was thinking same thing. Went to manufacturer's site and I'm thinking coat air-dry/coat air-dry/coat air-dry and then oven at 220 for 20 mins or oven dry between coats at 200 or 220 for 15 to 20 mins. It shows 250 degree Temp on product so I'm thinking to keep oven temp south of 250. But between me and AZShooter2013, he has walked the walk.

cpileri
08-24-2013, 11:48 AM
Yes, if its no bake and passes the hammer smash i am very interested. i am basically looking to do 2 things, not necessarily together:
1. as a carrier for hexagonal boron nitride
or.
2. as a neat-o colored bullet novelty for some young female shooters to color and draw on, then shoot without leaving flakes fo paint in my bore
C-

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:02 PM
well the vht epoxy will handle 300 degrees, that is what I baked it at, now I think(do not know) that you would need to bake the vht one at least once, it says so on the can. by the way, the white stuff is rustoleum

prickett
08-24-2013, 12:07 PM
An added bonus of not baking is retaining water dropped BHN.

Azshooter2013
08-24-2013, 12:08 PM
80103
here it is but like I said it did seem to work
80107

smash test

80108

80109

I will try some without baking next time

Skip62
08-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Thanks for your efforts

500MAG
08-24-2013, 12:34 PM
Has anyone tried the smash test without baking the VHT?

steve4102
08-25-2013, 08:22 AM
Do you size these coated bullet after applying the coating?

cpileri
08-25-2013, 09:17 AM
is that greenish smashed bullet in post 47 coated w the Spray Rust-oleum appliance epoxy?
Mine was the paint on type, and like I said it flaked off (no baking)
C-

jmort
08-25-2013, 02:45 PM
Yes, it is white Rustoleum with food coloring from Albertson's Grocery - see posts 25 and 31 and 32. His is bake and no flake. His sizing video and smash test shows good results at a fraction of the cost. It appears we may be able to ditch the expensive, complicated two part epoxy paints with high temp baking. Far less expensive, available at corner store, far easier use/apply and fantastic results. It is getting gooder and gooder.

Azshooter2013
08-25-2013, 03:12 PM
Yes it is the rustoleum, the spots were not planned, but they look cool. I know the can did not mention heating, but I did anyway, I just did some 200gr 45swc I baked them too, ill post up what happens.

Freightman
08-25-2013, 03:14 PM
Good report I have had good results with Harbor Freight powder but I can assure you I will be trying this. The experimenting is as much fun as the shooting.

Azshooter2013
08-25-2013, 03:39 PM
freightman,i agree totally, and like you iv gotten great results from hfpc, I was just looking to try someting new.

500MAG
08-25-2013, 08:28 PM
The rust oleum also comes in a stainless color.

jmort
08-25-2013, 08:29 PM
"Please provide the details of which product, and how you did it."

Why not read the thread. It "... provide(s) the details of which product, and how (he) did it."

500MAG
08-25-2013, 08:34 PM
The gloss black may get mistaken for the Teflon bullets from the 80's.

bangerjim
08-25-2013, 09:45 PM
I tried the rustoleum white stuff and after baking at above temps and time, I can scrape the darn stuff of with my fingernail! And the sizing die leaves only bare lead!

What's up?

I am gonna melt this batch of 60 9mm's back down and do it right......PC.


And that was a bunch of steps I do not have to do with the gun-PC coating. I can crank out PC'd slugs 3X as fast as messing around with the cans of spray paint. And the powder coating is cheaper in the long run........a $5.50 one pound bottle coats thousands of boolits for me. And the slugs are dry, cured, and HARD in 10 minutes.

bangerjim

TheDoctor
08-25-2013, 09:56 PM
The gloss black may get mistaken for the Teflon bullets from the 80's.

I had always read that teflon bullets were a pea green. Have never personally seen one however...

Echd
08-25-2013, 11:19 PM
You're thinking of the KTWs, which were green.

The Black Talons of ill repute were indeed black. I still have some in 9mm, although I don't know where the box is... one day it might be worth something to a collector! Even if SXTs are pretty much the Same Xact Thing...

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 03:38 PM
bangerjim,
I had the same problem with the rustoleum stuff I tried last night, I put them back in the pot, but the rustoleum stuff did not burn in the pot, I spooned it out, I will use the black from now on, I shot those, I know it works.

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 03:41 PM
im going to try this stuff next.

http://www.seymourpaint.com/green_rebar_epoxy.html

500MAG
08-26-2013, 04:53 PM
bangerjim,
I had the same problem with the rustoleum stuff I tried last night, I put them back in the pot, but the rustoleum stuff did not burn in the pot, I spooned it out, I will use the black from now on, I shot those, I know it works.
Darn, I jumped the gun and bought the rustoleum along with the VHT. I thought it passed the smash test.

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 05:04 PM
It did for me twice, but since then, not so much, im not sure what I did different from the first 2 times with the rustoleum stuff. Guess ill keep trying to figure it out.

cpileri
08-26-2013, 05:12 PM
yeah, so i tried the spray on Rust-o-leum white, thinking it might be different than the brush on. Scrapes off easily w a fingernail.

I will wait 7 days for a full cure then try the scrape and smash tests again.

Scraping was definitely harder w the paint on, but still not fingernail resistant. Will smash them (the paint on type) tonight and see.

C-

Crash_Corrigan
08-26-2013, 06:04 PM
I am wondering what is the point of all this extra work. Why are we painting lead boolits and then baking them? Do they shoot better? Lead less? Or is it just to make them look cool? Somebody enlighten me please............

500MAG
08-26-2013, 06:14 PM
I am wondering what is the point of all this extra work. Why are we painting lead boolits and then baking them? Do they shoot better? Lead less? Or is it just to make them look cool? Somebody enlighten me please............

It can be faster for some. Also, you can use softer alloys and don't have to be so concerned about exact sizing and still avoid leading problems. The different color bullets can be pretty cool looking.
I like it because its just another new thing to do.

Skip62
08-26-2013, 06:21 PM
I am wondering what is the point of all this extra work. Why are we painting lead boolits and then baking them? Do they shoot better? Lead less? Or is it just to make them look cool? Somebody enlighten me please............

I HATE SMOKE! ! ! I shoot USPSA and Steel Challenge type stuff. Clouds in front of me distract me.

blueeyephil
08-26-2013, 06:23 PM
Is the VHT a one use product? I am under the impression that epoxy paint is mixed and must be used before it hardens. I'm very interested in trying it but not if it's once or twice and done.

shadowcaster
08-26-2013, 06:57 PM
VHT is premixed and is good for as many uses as you can get from the can.

Shad

ashhoe
08-26-2013, 07:25 PM
Hey all. Post # 2!
Just stopped at auto zone on the way home from work and bought the two cans they had for $15 and change. The guy asked what I was using it for " 'cause he heard good things about it" and I reluctantly spewed out the boolit coating speech. He said, "yea, that's why the store manager buys all of that we get in".
Who in the Brownstown/Flat Rock area of Michigan that's the store manager of the auto zone is a caster/loader?
BTW, I'm the ultimate noob at casting and you guys are a true inspiration. You're making me spend a lot of money on everything from lead to molds to antique cast iron muffin pans. My wife will probably seek out and kill every one of you.
If you live long enough, I hope to post up some of my own tests with the coatings and be a true contributor to this site so you can see how you've helped me.
Thanks.

cricco
08-26-2013, 07:31 PM
Wow! Great info. Fingers crossed.

jmort
08-26-2013, 07:35 PM
"im going to try this stuff next."

I applaud your experimentation/testing. If nothing else, it appears that VHT is a winner and possibly the Seymour green rebar epoxy. A single part epoxy in a can for a fraction of the cost is a definite advance. We just need to name the VHT process after you. "AZ-Coat" or "AZ-VHT" or whatever works for you.

Mike Hughes
08-26-2013, 08:23 PM
Good job Azshooter, this is readily available, low cost, and the lower cook temp should help retain bhn. Have you done the acetone wipe test with the VHT? I noticed that it passed the smash test, but the wipe test seems to be equally important. I have had several different attempts with piglet and Klass Kote that would pass the smash but not the wipe.

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 11:17 PM
Yes the vht did pass acetone wipe after baking. I think I mentioned it early in the thread.

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 11:19 PM
I dont need anything named after me, its just something fun to do in my spare time, thanks for the thought though.

blueeyephil
08-26-2013, 11:41 PM
Ok, I ordered some Powder Coat today from Powder buy the pound and I guess it's VHT tomorrow. I've never tried anything like that but have been casting for some time. I've had good luck with Lee 9mm 125 in a CZ clone with no leading using the 45/45/10 formula I found on this site. I've also had pretty good luck with my .40 with a couple of different Lee molds and the tumble lube.

I mostly shoot Bayou bullets in my .40 and talked to Donnie about buying coating from him when he first announced he would sell to the public. I just didn't want to jump in that deep at the time. I may continue buying most of my bullets from him for USPSA and IDPA use. But I've had lots of leading in my Colt Trooper III.357 Mag, I really just haven't had time to work out the issues with it. So I may try PC and VHT coated bullets for it. And I bought a 1984 Marlin in 357 recently so I can give them a try in it too. I also got involved in a couple of group buys on nice .30 cal and .22 cal molds. I'll certainly try this for my AR and maybe in my Marlin 30/30.

Just don't count on me getting results back on all of this very soon. Too much to do and not much time. But I'm looking forward to the experiment.

Azshooter2013
08-26-2013, 11:49 PM
ok I just did one more qwick test on the vht coating, not that it means much but I thought I would try heating the coated bullet with a torch to see if the coating would burn before the lead melted, and well you guys can be the judge.803458034480343

shadowcaster
08-26-2013, 11:54 PM
ok I just did one more qwick test on the vht coating, not that it means much but I thought I would try heating the coated bullet with a torch to see if the coating would burn before the lead melted, and well you guys can be the judge.803458034480343

That is Awsome..! :) I have a can of black VHT and my white VHT should be in tomorrow. I'll be joining the ranks of the testers soon.

Shad

bangerjim
08-27-2013, 12:34 AM
Ok, I ordered some Powder Coat today from Powder buy the pound and I guess it's VHT tomorrow. I've never tried anything like that but have been casting for some time. I've had good luck with Lee 9mm 125 in a CZ clone with no leading using the 45/45/10 formula I found on this site. I've also had pretty good luck with my .40 with a couple of different Lee molds and the tumble lube.

I mostly shoot Bayou bullets in my .40 and talked to Donnie about buying coating from him when he first announced he would sell to the public. I just didn't want to jump in that deep at the time. I may continue buying most of my bullets from him for USPSA and IDPA use. But I've had lots of leading in my Colt Trooper III.357 Mag, I really just haven't had time to work out the issues with it. So I may try PC and VHT coated bullets for it. And I bought a 1984 Marlin in 357 recently so I can give them a try in it too. I also got involved in a couple of group buys on nice .30 cal and .22 cal molds. I'll certainly try this for my AR and maybe in my Marlin 30/30.

Just don't count on me getting results back on all of this very soon. Too much to do and not much time. But I'm looking forward to the experiment.

If you use your powder as it is designed to be used.....IN AN ELECTROSTATIC GUN.....you WILL have excellent success. Every slug I coat is perfect. If you elect to use the (sort-of) dissolved powder method.....no guarantees! Get the $59 (-20% coupon) Harbor Freight gun system! You will NOT be sorry.

bangerjim

Mike Hughes
08-27-2013, 07:43 AM
Going to pick up a can of VHT today and try it out. My local Advance auto parts stocks VHT epoxy black gloss and black satin. Has anyone tried the satin? I know with house paint, the more gloss, the more solids in the paint. I think I will start with the gloss. Gonna try these on 223 @ 2300 fps

blueeyephil
08-29-2013, 01:03 PM
If you use your powder as it is designed to be used.....IN AN ELECTROSTATIC GUN.....you WILL have excellent success. Every slug I coat is perfect. If you elect to use the (sort-of) dissolved powder method.....no guarantees! Get the $59 (-20% coupon) Harbor Freight gun system! You will NOT be sorry.

bangerjim

I might do that at some point. I really don't want to go that route. More equipment in an already cramped space. Basically, I've been very happy with the Bayou bullets that have the Hi-Tek coating for my main pistol supply. I'm really looking for an alternative for calibers/bullet combo's that I don't shoot that much of. That and my AR. So, that's why the interest in this thread. I've been reading most of the alternate lube threads too. I wasn't sure if I bought the Hi-Tek from Donny that I'd use it before it went bad, that is unless I decided to cast all of my pistol bullets instead of buying a good portion of them. Then I run into the time component. Something that I never have enough of.

I will report my 1st results with this method. And so far I've not had great results. My coating isn't smooth at all. So I will proably just melt that batch back down. But I may have rushed the process. I didn't want to put too heavy of a coat on at any point and didn't. So they were dry to the touch just a couple of minutes after I turned them out of my bucket. Maybe I tumbled them too long. I baked them at 300 for 10 minutes with 3 coats. On my 30 cal the lube groove isn't coated, but hey, it's not being used with this process anyway.

But on a side note. I've been reading the alternate lube threads and there is toooooo much passion on each persons preferred way. People are zelots. I'm interested in trying a number of methods and picking out the best for me and my situation. I appreciate the info but some threads have turned into more flame wars than anything else. I'd like to be able to go to a thread about a method and be able to mostly read just about that. Bagerjim, I do have a question for you about PC with a gun, but I’ll post that on your thread so as to keep this one as much about VHT as possible.

Maybe we need a poll on alternate lubes and get some numbers to see what people are really doing. Traditional Lube, Alox Tumble, 45/45/10 Tumble, PC with gun, PC Piglet, Hi-Tech, Expoy, VHT, Other. Of course when doing that we should consider pistol vs rifle boolits because there is a difference.

bangerjim
08-29-2013, 02:34 PM
bangerjim, I've been reading other threads and it looks like you have tried several other methods and settled on the PC with the gun. I think that's great. But what about those little .223 bullets. I just don't see how to make them work with the gun method. If anyone has been successful with that, I'd like to see their method. Mine are gas check design and they aren't going to want to stand up very well, they are so small. I'd like to be able to use them without the bother and expense of gas checks. If I can't then I'll probably just tumble lube them in 45/45/10 and put the check on and be done with it.



I PC different GC'd cal's all the time.......223/30/45. You make a simple jig the GC section of the boolit goes in "snugly" (key point) and spray away. When you are done, just pop 'em out and press on the GC's on the bare lead bottoms. Easy.

Or don't use GC's....it is all up to if you are sub-sonic or not.

If you want the base coated, pour some acetone on a rag, put a little powder in a lid ( you can use different colors!), dab the base on the rag to wet it, tap it in the powder and rebake just laying on n/s foil. It forms a nice PC GC!! An idea a kind fellow on here shared a couple weeks ago~~~~~the meeting of minds!

It's all in the jig you use. Mine is just simple Al roof flashing with punched holes the size of the GC diameter. I use my set of HF gasket punches to pop a hole thru on a piece of wood. It leaves a nice hole with a little flange on the back. If the punch is too small, ream it a bit with a hand reamer. Cover the whole thing with n/s foil B4 pushing the boolits in and you have 'yer jig! I get anywhere from 50 to 70 slugs on a rack and 3 racks in the oven at once.

There are lot of great ideas on here for jigs..........from the very simple to the very complex involving welding and steel bending. Go with what you have success with. The above GC holder works for me!

bangerjim

blueeyephil
08-29-2013, 03:28 PM
Hey, bangerjim, I was editing my post and got called away and you answered my original. Didn't realize it and posted my edit. Anyway, thanks for the info. May just try that jig. I'm going to try this VHT and probably the PC in solution a time or two before I give up and join you. I just love the vast amount of info available on this forum.

Smoke4320
08-29-2013, 04:16 PM
each method has its little quarks..and benefits. You just have to choose what you like the best and go with it ..

Shotgundrums
09-01-2013, 02:28 AM
80697
These are coated with gorilla glue epoxy reduced with lacquer thinner lubed with MOS2, baked at 250 for 22 mins. I used ink from a bic pen for color. They work great!
80698
80699

bangerjim
09-01-2013, 12:50 PM
80697
These are coated with gorilla glue epoxy reduced with lacquer thinner lubed with MOS2, baked at 250 for 22 mins. I used ink from a bic pen for color. They work great!
80698
80699

Another new idea! Love it.

Please post more details on application/mixing/coating technique.

Does the moly go in the mix or applied after??

And what results are you seeing on the range?

Anxiously awaiting your reply!

bangerjim

Shotgundrums
09-01-2013, 02:31 PM
This is a process that works I perfected about a year ago when I couldn't get my hands on HI-TEK coating.
I squeezed the epoxy syringe equal parts to fill a tablespoon. Scoop it into a mixing container, stir it and let it activate for 1 minute. Then, pour 2 tbsp of lacquer thinner and blend and mash until completely liquid. Pop the ink tube out of a cheap BIC stick pen and use about half of the ink. Mix again. Add about 1/2 tsp of MOS2 powder. Stir again.
Repeat this process for each coat! The pot life VERY short. I use this volume to coat about 275 200gr 45 swc. 300ish 158gr 38s. Pour onto mesh to let dry to touch. Bullets shouldn't touch each other or they'll stick together. Pop in the oven. Cook at 250 for 22 mins. Don't cook at higher temp for shorter period; the color will bleed away.
Adjust this mixture for bullet type and quantity as needed... This process works best with LACQUER thinner than acetone. The coating flows with the bullet's malleability and finish is far better. I've pushed these through my SW686p 6" bbl at high 1200's low1300's with zero leading and accuracy was fantastic.

fastglock
09-01-2013, 04:45 PM
The VHT epoxy is not working for me. No matter how well I prep or even follow instructions on the can, it doesn't adhere that well.It always scratches off through the sizer. So far nothing comes close to PC........ Yet.

Shotgundrums
09-01-2013, 08:13 PM
I've got a great way to powder coat bullets without the gun or solvents.
-drop your bullets into soapy water {(dawn dish soap or equiv)Adjust your soapy water so that when the bullets dry there's a slight viscous feeling to the surface}.Let bullets dry on mesh. Roll the bullets in a generous amount of PC. Fish them out and stand base down on cookie sheet or whatever... Cook as usual...repeat two more time then size:)
Play time-GO!!

fastglock
09-01-2013, 08:22 PM
I've got a great way to powder coat bullets without the gun or solvents.
-drop your bullets into soapy water {(dawn dish soap or equiv)Adjust your soapy water so that when the bullets dry there's a slight viscous feeling to the surface}.Let bullets dry on mesh. Roll the bullets in a generous amount of PC. Fish them out and stand base down on cookie sheet or whatever... Cook as usual...repeat two more time then size:)
Play time-GO!!

Any pics? Vids?

Shotgundrums
09-01-2013, 08:35 PM
Lol unfortunately no. I'm sorry. This does work. But I took off with the epoxy because I wanted to infuse a 'lube for magnum rounds like 44, 357. But...for 9mm or 45...40 it works great. I never did try pc bullets in magnums.

bangerjim
09-01-2013, 09:14 PM
The VHT epoxy is not working for me. No matter how well I prep or even follow instructions on the can, it doesn't adhere that well.It always scratches off through the sizer. So far nothing comes close to PC........ Yet.

HOLD THE PRESSES!.........!

I picked up a can of the VHT stuff at an auto store after church today and tried it on 12ea) 45cal slugs. Put them on plain foil....spayed on to get a good even coat of the gloss black.......baked in a preheated toaster oven for 12 min @ 375F. Let them cool in the oven to about 170F and took them out. Let them cool for aboout an hour. VERY HARD.... will not fingernail off. They DID pass the size die witout any problems! Shooting/leading is another thing. I will let them cure for about a week B4 loading and heading to the range.

Did NO prep other than sparying it on newly dropped boolits.

The Rustoleum apliance stuff did NOT work at all. There is something much MUCH different about the VHT....it even smells different when it cooks.

Now I need to find an auto store with other colors than flat and gloss black!

Bangerjim

blueeyephil
09-01-2013, 11:39 PM
I tried the tumbled VHT and didn't like the looks at all. I didn't get a smooth coat at all and would wipe off with lacquer thinner. So I've been experimenting with piglet pc. I determined while doing that my oven wasn't getting hot enough. So that might have been part of the problem with VHT. I may try spraying some with VHT. Interested in the soap method too.... gotta read about that again. Sounds like if you could do anything to get them tacky, you could drop in a baggie, shake with some PC and then bake. Maybe a little white glue and water? I'm going to try that! I don't like the smell of lacquer thinner.

It's Shake and Bake, and I helped... lol

bangerjim
09-01-2013, 11:57 PM
I tried the tumbled VHT and didn't like the looks at all. I didn't get a smooth coat at all and would wipe off with lacquer thinner. So I've been experimenting with piglet pc. I determined while doing that my oven wasn't getting hot enough. So that might have been part of the problem with VHT. I may try spraying some with VHT. Interested in the soap method too.... gotta read about that again. Sounds like if you could do anything to get them tacky, you could drop in a baggie with some PC and then bake. Maybe a little white glue and water? I'm going to try that! I don't like the smell of lacquer thinner.


I did NOT tumble anything! Why spray it in a tub and let it slop on? Just spray it on the boolits like it was designed to do. So far, the smoothest and best looking finishes I personally have got and have seen on here are gun-coated PC and this sprayed-on-the-boolit VHT. All the tumble coatings I have done and seen are not that smooth and exhibit thin spots, lay spots, uneven coatings and lumps. But if they shoot good and prevent leading........that works for any of us!

I was amazed how hard and smooth the SINGLE sprayed-on coat was. But the test will be in a couple days when I pound a couple flat and then shoot some down range.

I use one of those $24 (on sale) Harbor Freight laser temp guns to check the oven temps. It is much more accurate than the cheeeeep temp control they put in those toaster ovens.

bangerjim

sirAIG
09-02-2013, 10:28 AM
Can I ask why you feel the need to let it cure for a week? even after baking in the oven? Im going to drop some boolits today and spray/bake them and shoot them tomorrow if all goes well... Is this a bad idea??

bangerjim
09-02-2013, 11:44 AM
They ones I coated were new cast. The bnh will change as the new boolits age. Prove it to youself. Check some fresh ones. Then check them 3-4 days later. They will be harder.....if you are using a good mix. Hard lead alloys do that. I always cast up several hundred and let them become stable before shooting. According to studies done and listed here, the hardness will continue to change for up to several months! WOW! I think there is some data on the www.LASC.US links.

Also, since cooking them got the temps back up in the boolits, the bhn is probably on the move again!

And besides, any liquid-based paint/coating will have residual softness until all the volatiles are totally gone, which can take several days, even if baked. PC is ready as soon as they cool from what I have seen, but I have never shot them that soon. I just like to give them time to settle down. Have never had ANY leading problems with my "wait a bit" method!

More power to you if you can shoot regularly! I just don't have the time. And I cannot just go out in my back yard and pop off a few test rounds as many of the guys on here can do. Living in town has it's benefits................ and drawbacks.

Good luck. Let us know how your fresh shoots do.

bangerjim

Shooter6br
09-02-2013, 12:56 PM
I think shooters were Alchemist in past lives. Epoxy coated swords? LOL

Shotgundrums
09-02-2013, 03:00 PM
I think shooters were Alchemist in past lives. Epoxy coated swords? LOL
That's funny.
Ill snap pics of the PC process today.

sirAIG
09-02-2013, 03:16 PM
They ones I coated were new cast. The bnh will change as the new boolits age. Prove it to youself. Check some fresh ones. Then check them 3-4 days later. They will be harder.....if you are using a good mix. Hard lead alloys do that. I always cast up several hundred and let them become stable before shooting. According to studies done and listed here, the hardness will continue to change for up to several months! WOW! I think there is some data on the www.LASC.US links.

Also, since cooking them got the temps back up in the boolits, the bhn is probably on the move again!

And besides, any liquid-based paint/coating will have residual softness until all the volatiles are totally gone, which can take several days, even if baked. PC is ready as soon as they cool from what I have seen, but I have never shot them that soon. I just like to give them time to settle down. Have never had ANY leading problems with my "wait a bit" method!

More power to you if you can shoot regularly! I just don't have the time. And I cannot just go out in my back yard and pop off a few test rounds as many of the guys on here can do. Living in town has it's benefits................ and drawbacks.

Good luck. Let us know how your fresh shoots do.

bangerjim

Hmm... All valid points. Im still green behind the ears with casting. But one of the things that drew me to coating bullets as opposed to lubing them was being able to do a pile of them at a time and shoot them whenever I wanted, with whatever lead I wanted. I am not hunting with them, and am not shooting anything other than 40sw (at the moment). So as far as my knowledge goes, I didnt think the hardness of my boolits would really make any difference as long as I am not getting any leading.

If that made sense - let me as this. Are you mixing the same alloy for your current coated boolits as you did with regular lubing? If so, what benefits does that serve? I shoot mostly all range lead. And honestly couldnt really care about the little bit of leading I have had using DARR lube. BUT - If I can continue to shoot just range lead with no mixing of alloys and COAT them and get no leading... Why would I want to bother with using a harder boolit?

Thanks for any insight.

bangerjim
09-02-2013, 04:07 PM
Good questions. THEORETICALLY..........and others please chime in here........the PC coating is thin but harder than the lead, so you should be able to shoot softer alloy......in pistol cals. When you go hyper-sonic, that is a totally differn't thing.

I have over 450# of Lyman#2, 250# lino, 350# COWW, and various hard & tin alloys and about 500# of soft. I just throw some in the pot in rough "guestimates" and usually end up around 11-12 bnh for pistoleeees. I have almost everything in 1/2 & 1# ingots, so it is easy to mix on the fly without any fancy calcs. I have never really messed around with the change of leading vs hardness when using PC. I would not recommend shooting dead soft, but others probably have tried it! Not enough time and too much business to attend to to experiment around with that aspect of this addiction.

Bottom line, I keep around 12bnh for all my PC's sub-sonic stuff. But, again I have lots and lots of alloy to use. You could probably drop down in the 9-10 range.

Any comments from others will be greatly appreciated!

bnagerjim

blueeyephil
09-02-2013, 04:18 PM
Ok, I'm spraying and baking some VHT. Also playing with PC tumble too. Tried some with glue and PC for kicks. That was a clumpy mess... lol

Piglet PC is looking pretty good. But I like the idea of VHT sprayed. Not sure if it is going to hold up though. I need to do a second coat before I try to size. I'll probably give them a day or two before I size. How long are you guys baking, and what temp?

prickett
09-02-2013, 04:43 PM
So as far as my knowledge goes, I didnt think the hardness of my boolits would really make any difference as long as I am not getting any leading.
Thanks for any insight.

One advantage to using the various boolit coatings is that you may be able to use softer lead than with traditional lube. While some people wait for their boolits to harden, others of us coat then shoot immediately. As long as you don't get leading and your accuracy is ok, then have at it. I've been successful using straight COWW's and shooting immediately (in both 9mm and .45 ACP). I've not yet tried .357 Mag. Those might require some hardening time. I'll have to experiment to see.

sirAIG
09-02-2013, 07:29 PM
Well, if nothing else they make for some cool looking boolits! I stood all of mine on their noses and sprayed the rest of them with gloss VHT. They were dropped this morning into water from range lead, and coated a couple hours later after putting them in the oven at 200deg for 15 min to make sure all of the water had evaporated off. I then sprayed them with VHT with 3 coats, letting each coat dry 10ish minutes in between and baked them one time at 375. After ~20min I just turned the oven off and came back 2 hours later to load them up. I am going to the range tomorrow after work, which means it will be about 24hours since they were baked. I'll report back as to how they performed! If it helps anyone - they are loaded in 40sw over 3.6gr of red dot - a proven accurate load in my handgun. Much higher and I get signs of high pressure, I dont have a chrono, so I am not sure the velocity they will be shooting at.

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx343/siraig/IMG_20130902_181001_403.jpg (http://s770.photobucket.com/user/siraig/media/IMG_20130902_181001_403.jpg.html)

jmort
09-02-2013, 08:13 PM
Look real good. I like the idea of spraying three light coats as opposed to the tumble coat method. Look forward to more info from everyone using VHT. Thanks for all your experimentation.

35 shooter
09-02-2013, 09:09 PM
Went to my local auto zone but they didn't have the vht epoxy. Anyway i noticed a can of vht ceramic that was flame resistant to 2000 degrees. Are the ceramics too soft or brittle for this type of thing? I'm new to this coating stuff and was just wondering.

jmort
09-02-2013, 09:27 PM
I'd stick with epoxy paint or powder coat.

bangerjim
09-02-2013, 09:43 PM
Went to my local auto zone but they didn't have the vht epoxy. Anyway i noticed a can of vht ceramic that was flame resistant to 2000 degrees. Are the ceramics too soft or brittle for this type of thing? I'm new to this coating stuff and was just wondering.


I am so impressed with the V stuff spayed on directly to the boolits, I am going to AutoZone tomorrow and pick up a couple cans of their various temps/kinds of paints. Auto engine paint is very specialized and should fit into what we are looking for. They make a hi-temp copper! Gotta try that! It's not epoxy.......but it supposed to be hard & tough.


I am keeping track of the cost of gun-coated PC'd vs the V stuff sprayed. I use only ONE coat of the VHT because it seems to work very well. I get the feeling gun-sprayed HF PC powder is far cheaper/slug than the VHT stuff. There is only 11 oz in a can!!!!!!

I pounded a 38 and a 45 (12bnh) darned near flat on a steel plate with a 2# hammer and the epoxy did NOT flake or come off! [smilie=w:

Will let y'all know how it goes.

bangerjim

blueeyephil
09-02-2013, 10:26 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/03/6a3y9a3u.jpg

Ok, spent most of the day goofing off. I've got some VHT and some Piglet PC bullets. I think the PC look a bit better. I've got 9mm in both and .358, .223 and a 30 cal all PC. The 358 started off with a silver 1st coat and then the Hot Candy Blue. The 9mm and 223 are just the blue.

I cooked the VHT and PC together. When they were air dry to the touch, i put nose down in factory plastic boxes and put my oven pan covered in non stick foil. I then flipped the whole thing over and slid in the oven. I then lifted the bullet trays off. That left most of them standing. Even did that with the 223. When i took them out, I let them cool just a bit and then with heavy gloves, tipped them over and mixed them around until the cooled enough to handle. That took care of them trying to stick together.

By the way some of the VHT were my tumble attempt that I didn't like. The looked much better after spraying and baking.

Now to find time to load and go shoot.

sirAIG
09-02-2013, 10:39 PM
are you guys coating the bases of the boolits?

35 shooter
09-02-2013, 11:17 PM
Bangerjim i got excited when i saw all that stuff too. What hit me about the ceramic was it said to bake it at 400degrees then 600 which would be too hot for lead. But maybe 2 or 3 times at 400 then 450? You would be ht'ing the boolit at the same time for rifle shooting. Just don't know if ceramic would stand up to the hammer test. May not need too tho? Also i'm with jmortimer about naming this stuff after azshooter.

Meantime i'll try another auto zone for the epoxy.

Good luck with this guys.

sirAIG
09-02-2013, 11:19 PM
i found mine at advanced auto parts, my local autozone did not have it. have yet to check pepboys..

blueeyephil
09-03-2013, 12:28 AM
are you guys coating the bases of the boolits?

I did some of mine. The ones that i initially tumbled. I didn't on the ones I sprayed. Hope that isn't a mistake. But for pistol I'm thinking it's not required. I could have taken a bit more time and done it. At least one coat.

The good part of tumbling is that you get the bottom covered. I may try it again, at least for the 1st coat. I think to get good looking bullets when tumbling you have to judge how much paint to spray in your tub, and pour them out at the right time. I think I waited too long and they started sticking too much and ended up with a rough texture. So, I wonder if when I sprayed them the wet paint on top helped to smooth them out.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/03/qasy8upu.jpg

sirAIG
09-03-2013, 07:14 AM
I am more concerned with performance than apperance, so I stood all of my 175 TN's on their tips and coated everything except the noses of the boolits. Just was curious if that was necessary in other peoples experience.

bangerjim
09-03-2013, 11:44 AM
sirAIG.............

No, I do not coat the bases. Read on...........

If you just shooting subsonic pistoleeeeeee loads, coating the bottom gains you nothing....except a lot of extra work! Remember, we lube a boolit (either with grease or polymer) in/around the grease grooves so the SIDES don't get the lead scraped off traveling down the barrel. In slower loads, the base is just fine with bare lead.

All boolits lubed the standard way are basically bare base also. There is no real protection with a Star lubra-matic or Alox. Its the SIDES you need to worry about!

If you are going hyper-sonic in magnum pistoleeees or rifles, then you need to seriously look at gas checks, as with any standard slug used that way. I think some here have played with coating the bases in place of GC's but have never heard any range/leading results. Recovering spent slugs for me is totally impossible. And I get ABSOLUTELY NO LEADING with the gun-applied PC coating to everything......but the bottoms. I Cu GC my 30-06 slugs after ES gun PC'ing.

I will stick with Cu GC's where & when they are needed. But not on subsonic pistol loads. Don't worry about the bases being coated.

The appearance of the nose of the loaded boolit is of concern to me (bragging rights! [smilie=s:)

bangerjim

Shotgundrums
09-03-2013, 11:45 AM
Here they are. 240gr rnfp.809158091680917809188091980920

80911809128091380914

bangerjim
09-03-2013, 11:47 AM
Here they are. 240gr rnfp.809158091680917809188091980920
80911809128091380914


These do not work.
bangerjim

Shotgundrums
09-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Foook!
Ill try again

Shotgundrums
09-03-2013, 12:14 PM
80925
80926
80927
80929
80930
80931
80932
80933

blueeyephil
09-03-2013, 12:30 PM
Shotgundrums, thanks for the pics. I'm going to try that. I'm getting good results but that looks pretty easy. I'm assuming that you are letting your bullets dry prior to dropping in the coating. Is that correct? And did you try to do an additional coat? Doesn't look like it would be needed on the pistol bullets but was just wondering.

Shotgundrums
09-03-2013, 03:32 PM
Shotgundrums, thanks for the pics. I'm going to try that. I'm getting good results but that looks pretty easy. I'm assuming that you are letting your bullets dry prior to dropping in the coating. Is that correct? And did you try to do an additional coat? Doesn't look like it would be needed on the pistol bullets but was just wondering.
No problem, this stuff is fun. These were coated three times. This soap mix is thick1 part soap 1 part water lol. AND...this will work too......you ready?......add a dab of JUST soap to your pile of bullets and work the bullets around in your hands until they feel sorta 'greased.' Once they're greased and sticky throw em into your vat of pc. Pick them up out of the pc with needle nose pliers and tap the bullets on a surface to remove excess. Then just set em and heat em up:) I cooked these at 380 for 15m.

blueeyephil
09-03-2013, 03:45 PM
I tried to do that using glue but I know that I used way too much. You should start another thread with your pictures and a description. Kind of off topic for this thread.

I sure appreciate the folks on this forum! So many ideas, some great, some lessons learned.

StratsMan
09-03-2013, 07:14 PM
Wow... I like simple, and this thread really got me going...

I also DON'T like all the smoke that comes from shooting PB boolits... I know, 99% of casters say "you don' need no stinkin' gas check on 38's or 45's"... I still hate the cloud in front of my muzzle when I pull the trigger, especially indoors... So I've been trying Powder Coating, using a Sears electric PC kit, with marginal success... Gotta be a better way!! And this may be it...

I just drilled some holes in a scrap board to stand up some boolits, tip down, 'cuz I like to cover the base instead of using a Gas Check... Kinda makes 'em look like the old Winchester Silver Tips, doesn't it??!! Sprayed a coat, let air dry, spray another coat, air dry and bake... Toaster oven was set at 350 deg, but not certain what the real temp was... let 'em bake 10-15 minutes....

Oh yeah... this is the VHT 'epoxy' paint from the auto store...


80961

bangerjim
09-04-2013, 12:31 PM
Well, I picked up a can of their hi-temp copper engine paint and tried it.

Did six 45 slugs.....extras & rejects I was going to melt over.

The directions say to spray 3 coats, let totally dry and bake.....for an HOUR(!) at 200F. Well, I don't have that much patience, so I sprayed on a coat, stuck them in the oven for a couple minutes to heat the boolits a bit, spayed on another coat, and baked for 35 min @ 300F. Let cool in oven to 120F. That was 9AM.

At 4PM, I checked hardness and they made it thru sizer, and I cannot fingernail them.

Now for a smash test when I get the chance today.

They look really great, but shooting will have to wait for a few days.

81034

bangerjim

bangerjim
09-04-2013, 04:07 PM
Save your time & money! The copper stuff does NOT work for us

It is a nice looking PAINT "covering" but flakes off when pounded.

And acetone will wipe it right off. So much for the claims on the can of chemical resistance!

I'm stickin' with ES gun applied powder. Still do not have any confidence in the VHT epoxy sprayed on paint in a can when it comes to leading.

I KNOW for SURE the electroStatic-gun applied PC coating will not come off and stops all leading in my guns. And at HF, it is really inexpensive.

bangerjim

sirAIG
09-04-2013, 04:12 PM
VHT shot yesterday showed no leading at all. That being said, I am not sure if I was having an "off" day, or if it was the VHT - but my accuracy was poor. I will be doing some more tests this weekend between it, and traditional DARR lube - which I know to be accurate in my gun.

35 shooter
09-04-2013, 09:35 PM
Bangerjim i thought the vht passed the hammer test and acetone wipe so why don't you have confidence in it to not lead the bbl?
My auto zone got some in today and i got a can of flat black. Didn't have any heat treated boolits ready so i coated a few cww's for an initial test in my whelen at about 1800 fps. Hope it works.

fastglock
09-04-2013, 09:54 PM
Save your time & money! The copper stuff does NOT work for us

It is a nice looking PAINT "covering" but flakes off when pounded.

And acetone will wipe it right off. So much for the claims on the can of chemical resistance!

I'm stickin' with ES gun applied powder. Still do not have any confidence in the VHT epoxy sprayed on paint in a can when it comes to leading.

I KNOW for SURE the electroStatic-gun applied PC coating will not come off and stops all leading in my guns. And at HF, it is really inexpensive.

bangerjim

Hey, it was still worth the effort. I still have a full can of gloss black.

Powder coating is not your typical coating.Its frieken Tough! And cheaper. And faster to cure. No brainer pick.

bangerjim
09-05-2013, 05:53 PM
Bangerjim i thought the vht passed the hammer test and acetone wipe so why don't you have confidence in it to not lead the bbl?
My auto zone got some in today and i got a can of flat black. Didn't have any heat treated boolits ready so i coated a few cww's for an initial test in my whelen at about 1800 fps. Hope it works.

The EPOXY version DID. I was testing only the Copper Engine Hi-Temp Paint they make. It does NOT stick like we want. I was just passing on my experimental results. And trying to save y'all some time and money!

Last night I did spray the VHT copper "enamel paint" onto some already coated FLAT BLACK HF PC'd slugs, baked them at 300F for 15 min. Amazingly the copper stuff stuck to the PC very well. It should stand the pound test, as the PC is the base coat. The copper is only for looks anyway! I doubt if it will stick to gloss anything.

ES gun PC'ing is still much cheaper and actually faster. But I like to "play around"!

bangerjim

StratsMan
09-05-2013, 08:55 PM
ES gun PC'ing is still much cheaper and actually faster. But I like to "play around"!

bangerjim

I must be doing it wrong, then... I don't have a solid jig set up to move boolits from spraying to oven... some fall and I have to handle them... that's a mess...

Heck, if it comes down to cheap, then just putting wax in a lube groove is pretty darn cheap...

35 shooter
09-05-2013, 09:20 PM
The EPOXY version DID. I was testing only the Copper Engine Hi-Temp Paint they make. It does NOT stick like we want. I was just passing on my experimental results. And trying to save y'all some time and money!

Last night I did spray the VHT copper "enamel paint" onto some already coated FLAT BLACK HF PC'd slugs, baked them at 300F for 15 min. Amazingly the copper stuff stuck to the PC very well. It should stand the pound test, as the PC is the base coat. The copper is only for looks anyway! I doubt if it will stick to gloss anything.

ES gun PC'ing is still much cheaper and actually faster. But I like to "play around"!

bangerjim

Ok got it. I can tell you've been doing this coating thing for awhile so tell me where i went wrong.
I got the flat black epoxy and sprayed three coats like it said but i think i got it too thick cause it made a lip around the base. Anyway i let it dry about an hour and put it oven at only 200 degrees. it kind of puddled on the flat part of the nose (boolits were standing on bases for painting and heating) bubbled a bit between lube grooves.
I baked 10 minutes 3 times. Paint turned gloss black. It rubs off easily with fingernail.

I did another batch last night and let dry over night. I put them in the oven tonight on 375 degrees for 10 minutes
and there was slight puddling in between the grooves and the paint actually swelled out on the side of one nose.
The finish stayed flat black so i cooked again at 310 then again at 320 ten minutes each time.
The paint shrunk back as it cooled, but still am i using too much paint? What do you think? First time i've tried
this coating thing.

felixXJ
09-06-2013, 03:58 PM
Are these cured top or bottom down? Would this work with the long Lee .309 230's lying on their sides as they are to long and tippy to stand straight up? Would some 1/4" screen or some kind of metal mesh make a better curing platform for these bullets with this method? Thanx for the pics and the info!

felixXJ
09-06-2013, 04:03 PM
I've used the VHT Gloss with a single coat cured at 200 for 10-12 minutes on some fresh cast. They passed the hammer test but it scraped off of the high points during .309 sizing. Admittedly, the mineral spirits in the Lee Alox I used for sizing may have softened the coating. I may try some more and size either with no lube or simple Frankford case lube. I may even Flitz polish my sizer with a bore mop also.

sirAIG
09-06-2013, 04:19 PM
Im having luck not using any lube while sizing. Minimal effort and not signs of anything bad happening.

bangerjim
09-06-2013, 06:34 PM
I've used the VHT Gloss with a single coat cured at 200 for 10-12 minutes on some fresh cast. They passed the hammer test but it scraped off of the high points during .309 sizing. Admittedly, the mineral spirits in the Lee Alox I used for sizing may have softened the coating. I may try some more and size either with no lube or simple Frankford case lube. I may even Flitz polish my sizer with a bore mop also.

Skip ANY lube on sizing! I size my boolits RAW right out of the mold and then AGAIN after coating.

Unless your mold is waaaaaaay off, they should easily slip thru the die. And you will NOT "lead" the die, even if the fit is rather tight! Lead (even 22bnh+) is much softer than the steel in the die. And you are not at sub or sonics speeds like in a gun barrel that cause leading!!!! I have sized many thousands of all cals in 9/30/38/40/45 without any lube. I now have many of those little bottles of brown "mule snot" on the shelf!

I have not done any research on lube dissolving the VHT coatings yet. I mentioned that somewhere, but if anybody has any info......please share. The solvents in the lube may be softening the VHT. It will NOT soften the gun-applied powder from what I have seen. Acetone will slightly soften the red and yellow HF (and eventually wipe it off) but not the black HF.

Go for it......and skip the lube.

bangerjim

bangerjim
09-06-2013, 06:46 PM
Ok got it. I can tell you've been doing this coating thing for awhile so tell me where i went wrong.
I got the flat black epoxy and sprayed three coats like it said but i think i got it too thick cause it made a lip around the base. Anyway i let it dry about an hour and put it oven at only 200 degrees. it kind of puddled on the flat part of the nose (boolits were standing on bases for painting and heating) bubbled a bit between lube grooves.
I baked 10 minutes 3 times. Paint turned gloss black. It rubs off easily with fingernail.

I did another batch last night and let dry over night. I put them in the oven tonight on 375 degrees for 10 minutes
and there was slight puddling in between the grooves and the paint actually swelled out on the side of one nose.
The finish stayed flat black so i cooked again at 310 then again at 320 ten minutes each time.
The paint shrunk back as it cooled, but still am i using too much paint? What do you think? First time i've tried
this coating thing.

It sounds like to me you using waaaaaay too much paint! (And that stuff in rather expensive!) And baking too much. ( I wish I could get my wife to bake that much! :popcorn:) The couple hundred I have successfully coated with the VHT gloss black epoxy sprayed-on (not tumbled) were only coated with ONE (1) coat and one(1) single bake. Just check to see if the entire boolit is well covered and not running off. Then into the oven at 300F for about 15 minutes. (Who ever reads and follows the directions on the box???? [smilie=s:)

Coating as above, I get an even coat (base down) with no bubbling, puddling, or "feet" on the things. They almost fall off the NS foil after I take them out. I have pounded several 38 and 45 cal's flat and the epoxy seems to stick. Have not had any range tests yet.

I really think you need to back off on the coats.

bangerjim

bangerjim
09-06-2013, 06:57 PM
I must be doing it wrong, then... I don't have a solid jig set up to move boolits from spraying to oven... some fall and I have to handle them... that's a mess...

Heck, if it comes down to cheap, then just putting wax in a lube groove is pretty darn cheap...

What cal's and syles are you coating? Knowing that will help us talk jigs. And heaven knows, there enough styles on this site.......all work for what they are designed to do.

I do all including 30's for my 30-06. Those take a special jig to hold the GC area or they do fall over easily. Can you say dominos? There is a post by me on here describing how I make the very simple & cheap 30 cal GC holding jig.

All others I just set on NS aluminum foil. They come off very easily after baking. You have to put a piece of Al roof flashing on the wire rack and cover it with foil or they will fall over!

Don't know your layout, but I have to only turn around from my spray/coat bench to my oven, so spillage/drop-age is not a problem for me......unless one of the cats is under my feet!

bangerjim

35 shooter
09-06-2013, 10:06 PM
Bangerjim to much paint was the problem it turns out. Second batch did much better.
In the mean time i tried the vht ceramic, my excuse being i've never fooled with any coating so i don't know any
better.
I put 3 light coats like the directions said and let dry about an hour. Looked great. Anyway got busy sizing some boolits and about 3 hours later i came back and baked them per the instructions..200 degrees for 30 min. let cool for 30 min. 400 degrees for 30 min. let cool for 30 min. then it says 600 but of course that was too hot for lead so i did 450 degrees for 30 more min. Didn't have any confidence in any of this and was just trying it for kicks.
Sure enough about an hour later i could scrape it to the lead with my fingernail, tho i had to try pretty hard.
But this morning they were definitely harder. This evening when i got home from work they WERE hard.
With a smooth nail i couldn't scrape it off. Finally got some off with a rough spot on one nail. Did a hammer test with regular carpenter hammer and mashed it half flat first time and nothing came off. Finally mashed it completely flat and some came off the bottom side butm that was after beating the heck out of it. It went thru sizing die no lube no problems no flakeing.

This stuff is pretty darn hard but it has a rougher tecture to it.
My question to you guys is if it makes it out the bbl., do you think the texture will cause bbl. wear? The epoxy FEELS
slicker. Anyway i'm surprised it turned out like it did and it feels like it might work.
Am i crazy to try and shoot it?

By the way guys don't rush out and spend any money yet cause i have no idea how it's gonna turn out. Understand i've never done any of this coating stuff before.

felixXJ
09-07-2013, 12:04 PM
I discovered something this morning. I was cleaning the lube out of my sizing die with a can of K&W carb cleaner. Just for an experiment i did the tumble method in a plastic bowl with HF red and a few shots of the carb cleaner. I've used acetone before, terrible results, went back to spray on methods. This time however is the first time I've had a successfull even coating with the HF red with the tumble method. I'm curing the test run right now. Someone else try this to verify. Maybe this is a way to make the cheap red HF powder manageable. Perhaps it's the heptane.

StratsMan
09-07-2013, 12:49 PM
OK, I'm game...

I grabbed a can of carb cleaner and put some HF white in there (only color I have).... swooshed some boolits in there (hint for next time: don't use hollow points) The powder dissolved pretty readily in the cleaner, so it coated the boolits... as the cleaner evaporated, there was a sticky mess on the boolits... first coat is pretty splotchy... personally, I don't like this coat/bake/coat/bake/coat/bake process.... They're in the oven now... looks like I didn't wait long enough for all the solvents to flash off before I put them in the oven... I have bubbles PC...

The slurry sticks to the side of the bucket, too... not like using Lacquer Thinner...

I'm open to suggestions, but so far I haven't found a tumble-coat method that I'm happy with...

bangerjim
09-07-2013, 02:01 PM
I , like all of you on here, do like to experiment, but guys......let's face reality.

The amount of time coating and baking and sitting (over & over!) it takes to coat our 'lil guys with VHT paint/epoxy is faaaar to extensive.........when just one (1) coat of HF (or other) powder baked ONE TIME at 400F for 10 min give a perfect coat that is hard........immediately!

But.......no one can EVER say we have closed minds on new ideas!!!!!!!!!! [smilie=l:

bangerjim

possom813
09-07-2013, 11:56 PM
I gave this a shot today, out of boredom, on some 160gr .309 boolits.

I washed the boolits with dish soap and water and then dried them in my little toaster oven at 200 degrees for about 20 minutes or so.

I then painted a light coat, waited 20 minutes, another light coat, another 20 minutes and a medium coat and waited 20 minutes and then into the toaster oven at 250 degrees for 20 minutes.

I painted them standing up, and after cooking and cooling, I can scrape off the epoxy with a dull knife.

I ran a couple through a lee sizing die, and it scratched off.

I don't know if I did something wrong in the method or not, but powder coating is starting to look much more appealing at this point.

bangerjim
09-08-2013, 12:25 AM
Just finished sizing the last batch of ES gun-coated boolits tonite. I did 500 rounds in a little over 1 hour spraying and baking ONE time at 400F for 10 min. I load around 250 (38's) on 4 racks in the toaster oven at a time, so baking goes fast. I have 4 more racks I load up while those are baking/cooling. You can make extra racks from sheet aluminum or steel....you don't need the wire racks that ovens come with. That way you can have a lot of spares to fill.

All.......repeat.......ALL 500 slugs were perfectly, smoothly coated and are hard and dry when removed from the 10 min bake. The coating will NOT scrape off and I DO size after coating. I can pound them flat with no flaking.

bangerjim

sirAIG
09-09-2013, 12:53 PM
Just an update. I have shot ~600 boolits coated with VHT in the past week. All but 100 of them were shot within 24 hours of coating and baking. The boolits shot "fresh" did leave a tiny bit of epoxy paint residue in the barrel, which easily cleaned out with a brush. The 100 shot after curing for a week, showed no sign of residue other than gunpowder. This is a great alternative to lubing boolits... but for the price, I only get ~ 500 boolits from a can of VHT. Next paycheck I am going to invest in a powdercoating setup. I hate dealing with cleaning lube off of boolits - so I definitally will be coating them one way or another.

No problems at all with the coated boolits as far as accuracy, loading, or feeding. Great alternative for those who want to tinker, or interetested in trying coated boolits themselve before investing in a PC setup.

cstrickland
09-09-2013, 12:59 PM
ok has anyone actually got to put an of the VHT or other epoxy coated 223 through a gun yet ?? I see several people mentioning it but did not see any results yet.

thanks

sirAIG
09-09-2013, 01:04 PM
I See no reason as to why it wouldn't work. Give it a shot and let us know!!

WILCO
09-09-2013, 01:33 PM
Figures I'd see this thread after tossing a perfectly good toaster oven.
It only sat around for several years, completely ignored.

35 shooter
09-09-2013, 09:18 PM
ok has anyone actually got to put an of the VHT or other epoxy coated 223 through a gun yet ?? I see several people mentioning it but did not see any results yet.

thanks

So far i haven't gotten the epoxy to set up hard enough to try thru rifle but i haven't water dropped it yet.
However i did try the vht ceramic and cooked it at the temps on the can except i did'nt go all the way to 600 degrees which was suggested on the can. I did cook it on 250 then 400 then 475 and it set up hard. I tried a hammer test the next morning against a piece of steel and nothing came off the hammered side although the steel was rough and cut it on the other side. I took one of them and re-heated to 465 degrees for one hour and water dropped into tap water and hammer tested it 3 hours later. I've never done any of this before but it seemed to pass a hammer test.
I will be trying the water dropped ceramic for sure but in the mean time i couldn't wait and tried the original non water dropped ones. Didn't figure it would work but had to try.
At 1800 fps it put the first the first 5 shots into about a half inch at 100 yards then the 6th shot went one inch low then the 7th went another inch low and i figured it was leading. It was but it more like a lead dust with very minute pieces of lead mixed in and cleaned out easily but i could see it wasn't going to work in a rifle.
The rifle was a 35 whelen and i do still have hope the water dropped type will work because that should be heat treating the boolit too and the paint DID set ,up hard using that process.
I'm going to try them at about 2200 fps this week.

In the meantime i'll water drop some epoxy ones too and try them at the same time if they do as good as the ceramic when water dropped. Sorry i couldn't tell you exactly what you asked about but i am working with this stuff in a rifle. If it works out i'm going to keep taking the speed up till it says "calf rope".
I was surprised by the potential accurracy part of it tho. I'm going to play with this for awhile before dropping more bucks on powder coating. I've only seen a couple of good reports on rifle accurracy with any of these coatings yet but it does seem to have potential.

I'll post back on it this weekend good or bad.

cstrickland
09-09-2013, 09:32 PM
So far i haven't gotten the epoxy to set up hard enough to try thru rifle but i haven't water dropped it yet.
However i did try the vht ceramic and cooked it at the temps on the can except i did'nt go all the way to 600 degrees which was suggested on the can. I did cook it on 250 then 400 then 475 and it set up hard. I tried a hammer test the next morning against a piece of steel and nothing came off the hammered side although the steel was rough and cut it on the other side. I took one of them and re-heated to 465 degrees for one hour and water dropped into tap water and hammer tested it 3 hours later. I've never done any of this before but it seemed to pass a hammer test.
I will be trying the water dropped ceramic for sure but in the mean time i couldn't wait and tried the original non water dropped ones. Didn't figure it would work but had to try.
At 1800 fps it put the first the first 5 shots into about a half inch at 100 yards then the 6th shot went one inch low then the 7th went another inch low and i figured it was leading. It was but it more like a lead dust with very minute pieces of lead mixed in and cleaned out easily but i could see it wasn't going to work in a rifle.
The rifle was a 35 whelen and i do still have hope the water dropped type will work because that should be heat treating the boolit too and the paint DID set ,up hard using that process.
I'm going to try them at about 2200 fps this week.

In the meantime i'll water drop some epoxy ones too and try them at the same time if they do as good as the ceramic when water dropped. Sorry i couldn't tell you exactly what you asked about but i am working with this stuff in a rifle. If it works out i'm going to keep taking the speed up till it says "calf rope".
I was surprised by the potential accuracy part of it tho. I'm going to play with this for awhile before dropping more bucks on powder coating. I've only seen a couple of good reports on rifle accuracy with any of these coatings yet but it does seem to have potential.

I'll post back on it this weekend good or bad.

35s thanks for the feedback. I am trying to get everything set up so I can do some through a 223. would like to see about 2500 - 2700 fps and 1.5 - 2 MOA would be acceptable . unfortunately I will not have things set up for another month or so , but until then I will be watching this thread.

thanks agin I appreciate the feedback

35 shooter
09-09-2013, 10:10 PM
cstrickland i also meant to mention the reason the vht epoxy didn't 'set up' for me is because i simply used too much paint because others here have evidently already made it work. Anyway i think it will work if done right
i just got too heavy handed on the spray nozzle. I'm new to any kind of coating process and probably just have to get a FEEL for how much is enough. The ceramic goes on lightly easily but may not work in the long run.
I certainly haven't seen or heard of anyone trying the ceramic but that stuff is supposed to be flame resistant to 2000 degrees. That's what made me want to try it. That and the fact i haven't done anything stupid in a long time, so i was overdue,but who knows it MAY work.

35 shooter
09-10-2013, 10:18 PM
Just a follow up to post 152. Tonight i tried the fingernail test on one of the epoxy coated boolits that i had cured at 250 degrees 5 days ago for 10 minutes. It was a bit harder but would still scratch off.
I stuck it back in the oven on 475 degrees for 1 hour and water dropped in tap water, let cool, then tried it again.
It did not scratch off. I'll try a hammer test in the morning. It seems like the epoxy IS going to set up hard enough for rifle vel. I know better than to count chickens right now, but the egg is looking good.

I'll be shooting both the epoxy and the ceramic heat treated boolits this weekend at about 2200 fps. If that works it's on to 2400 and 2500 fps.

Huvius
09-15-2013, 02:23 PM
Anything new to report from anybody?
This all got me to thinking...and we all know where that can lead...
Two thoughts:
First, I know most expert casters reject frosted lead bullets. I shoot them anyway and they smooth out when sizing. But I was thinking, wouldnt a frosty bullet hold the PC or spray/tumble paint better than a smooth or resized bullet helping form a more uniform coat?
And, has anybody tried a paper patch (smooth side) type bullet bore sized with black powder? Seems like a "modern" version of a paper patch bullet as long as the coating can stay adhered while the bullet bumps up upon firing.

bangerjim
09-15-2013, 06:17 PM
Anything new to report from anybody?
This all got me to thinking...and we all know where that can lead...
Two thoughts:
First, I know most expert casters reject frosted lead bullets. I shoot them anyway and they smooth out when sizing. But I was thinking, wouldnt a frosty bullet hold the PC or spray/tumble paint better than a smooth or resized bullet helping form a more uniform coat?
And, has anybody tried a paper patch (smooth side) type bullet bore sized with black powder? Seems like a "modern" version of a paper patch bullet as long as the coating can stay adhered while the bullet bumps up upon firing.


I am happy and actually try for slightly frosted slugs to allow the ES PC to stick even better. But the ES PC'ing sticks VERY well to right shiny slugs too!

ES PC with a gun is the only way to turn out accurate, smooth, well-coated boolits every time with no drips, no runs, or no errors. So.........PLAY BALL!




bangerjim

Huvius
09-15-2013, 08:38 PM
I think I will do just that - PC them.
I stopped at Harbor Freight to take a look and they do have the spray gun for $60 and the flat black, yellow, red and white powders were all $6 per container.
Cheap enough that I could go red and mix up some pink for the girls...

Just for kicks, I did get a can of VHT black and sprayed some PP bullets which were sized to .451".
Once dry, I will bake them and resize them back to .451" again or maybe mic them and see what they measure out at and leave them alone. I washed them in acetone before spraying and they sure look purty.
I have a stainless Ruger No.1 in .458 Lott which I could try with BP if I can get enough neck tension on the bullets. Figured I would try that before using them in my better guns.

Shotgundrums
09-16-2013, 02:46 AM
I tried vht. Coated twice and baked each at 300 for 15 mins. Coating was hard. But, didn't want to go through the sizer without a fight. Even lubed them. Coating ends up thick. I think 1 coat and baked for 38spl type loads will work for this..

bangerjim
09-16-2013, 02:50 PM
I tried vht. Coated twice and baked each at 300 for 15 mins. Coating was hard. But, didn't want to go through the sizer without a fight. Even lubed them. Coating ends up thick. I think 1 coat and baked for 38spl type loads will work for this..

The 100 or so I have done with the sprayed-on epoxy were only sprayed with ONE (1) coat and baked. They are now hard (after 2 weeks!)but I have not shot any of them. They DID make it thru the sizer with no probems.

But........I feel that anymore than ONE coat is a big overkill and will make the coating waaaaaaay to thick and will come off in the sizer, let alone in your barrel....exposing lead bigtime.

If you absolutely must use the really expensive and VERY time-consuming VHT epoxy spray coating, stick to one coat. Mine seem OK, but shooting will tell the story in about a week.

I will stick to ES PC coatings.

bangerjim

Freightman
09-17-2013, 06:41 PM
I have used VKT, the piglet method, tumbling PC now am going to try the right way PC. The question is can I use my shop compressor by turning the regulator to the right pressure?
PS: I have shot my 30-06 with PC to 2400fps no lead or paint PC, then made my GC 200gr mold PB and shot 50 rds. 2000fps no GC, no lead, no paint. Also shot my 45/70 with BP worked fine. This was with PC haven't tried with the VKT yet.

popper
09-17-2013, 07:11 PM
Yes, turn the pressure down as low as you can get to provide a 'puff' of powder. You probably need a secondary regulator, the primary will determine when the motor runs. The HF gun has a valve, not regulator, which has worked good for me. I run the compressor <25psi and use the valve a bit. Others regulate to 15 or so psi. Other thing I found was you have to run it higher if the powder gets damp, I bang the jar a lot to keep it 'powdery'.

bangerjim
09-17-2013, 09:37 PM
Well, for you guys that want to have copper slugs, you can take a standard ES PC'd boolits coated with HF matte black, bake them as usual at 400F for 10 minutes, take them out when they cool to 250, spray with VHT Burnt Copper Hi temp paint, and then rebake at 250 for 20 minutes.

Makes some really nice copper-look slugs.

82060


The matte black allows the paint to really stick. With the PC as a base, you still have all the protection. These have cooled and have been sized with NO loss of coating. I doubt the copper does anything, but is makes things interesting! And I doubt it will stick to any of the gloss PC either. Just another reason to use HF matte balck for everything and save your money and not buy those expensive powers by the pound!

These are 230g RN TL boolits for my 45 long colts.

And, no......................I do NOT coat the bottoms of my sub-sonic, so don't even ask!


bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

jmort
09-17-2013, 09:46 PM
Nice look. I agree: "The matte black allows the paint to really stick."

bangerjim
09-17-2013, 09:49 PM
Yes, turn the pressure down as low as you can get to provide a 'puff' of powder. You probably need a secondary regulator, the primary will determine when the motor runs. The HF gun has a valve, not regulator, which has worked good for me. I run the compressor <25psi and use the valve a bit. Others regulate to 15 or so psi. Other thing I found was you have to run it higher if the powder gets damp, I bang the jar a lot to keep it 'powdery'.

As I stated earlier somewhere on here sometime, HF sells a very tiny really nice REAL pressure reducing regulator with a gauge for around $6. That is what I use right off the main 130# air line from my shop compressor. I keep it set at around 10-12# and it works very well. As popper stated, the knob on the gun is just a valve that controls flow NOT pressure!!!!!

I have also found the coating does not start sticking right away. Keep spraying. All of a sudden, the powder will magically start to coat REAL fast. It must be something to do with the static that has to build up in the gun or the higher humidity I have now here in AZ. But after about 15 seconds, the coating really starts happening. The powder should flow gently out, not "burst" out of the gun. And use the smallest cone it comes with. Only use about an 1-1½" of powder in the container.

And yes, you do want to bump the container on the gun FREQUENTLY with your palm to keep the powder in a "fluidized bed" state in gun jar. Many times you can hear it "bubbling" inside. That is when the best flows seem to take place. The trick is to keep the powder fluid in the container and out the nozzle of the gun.

bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

35 shooter
09-18-2013, 09:28 PM
Ran another small test with vht epoxy and vht ceramic paint this weekend. I cured both at 200 degrees for 10 minutes, waited till next day and heat treated at 475 degrees for 1 hour then water dropped.The next day it would not fingernail off. Both types had 2 coats of paint applied.
The epoxy came out at .362 and ceramic at .363 and.364 dia. Ran both thru sizing die at .360.
The epoxy lightly scrapped off on back side of bands slightly but the ceramic did not. Bangerjim says 1 coat on epoxy so i'll try that next but i don't believe 1 coat is going to stand rifle vel. In fact i'm going to heat treat some tonight.
This will be for use in a 35 whelen.

In the meantime i tried the ceramic with enough4759 for 2200 fps. The first shot went 1 inch high and the next 4 went about 3/8 inch at 100 yards, next shot went 1 inch low and the next went 1/2 inch lower. It had started lightly leading after the first 5 shots then changed impact. It looked as if it was cleaning out what little lead there was but not enough to keep it from changing impact.
I'm still going to try the epoxy with one coat this week but it looks like the ceramic won't work in rifles but might in pistols? The accurracy is darn sure there till it starts leading. That's frustrating. By the way the leading WAS light and brushed out easily.
Looks like azshooter2013 came up with something that WILL work in pistols with the epoxy and that's good but i'll try in the rifle again at least one more time because the accurracy potential has me hooked. I believe this stuff would shoot like jacketed if i can stop the leading.

bangerjim
09-20-2013, 05:12 PM
After using the HF matte black (1 coat) for a base, you can spray on other "stuff" like my copper-heads above or use other paints. Here is my latest Zombie Ammo loads, 300g 45LC's made with standard matte HF base and then ONE coat of Krylon lite green "plastic" paint. The plastic paint forms a molecular bond with plastics so it really sticks to the PC. I sprayed them one time and baked at 250F for 20 min.

The next day they went thru sizing with no loss, even though there was a little drag, as the coating added a bit to the diameter. Will not scrape off.

82314

The two in the back were just a trial with some florescent green, but it has to be on a white base to really show up. They do glow real nice under blacklite!!!!!!

Now I am ready for some head-splitting Zombie attack action!!!!!! HA.....ha.

bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

35 shooter
09-20-2013, 10:49 PM
Tried epoxy again with as light a coat as i could and still get the boolits covered, then cooked at 200 for 10 minutes.
Last night i heat treated at 460 degrees for 1 hour then water dropped.
Today i couldn't get any off with a fingernail so i ran them thru 360 sizer and again it lightly scrapped off in places along the bands. The original dia. was .362 before sizing. I'm not going to try shooting with lead exposed like that.

Oh well. I still think it would work and stay on thru sizer if my boolit was .3585 or .3590 but my mould pours a little larger than this even with ww. Guess i could try sizing to .359 first then painting then back thru the sizer again.
Pc sounds better and better. But for now back to traditional lube, hunting seasons right around the corner.

RP
09-21-2013, 01:42 AM
I have been looking at some of the post here on this coating and without going back and reading all of them I have a ? If you under size the bullet to say 451 then coat and your looking a 452 or 453 bullet would that be something that would work. I understand how much is sprayed effects this but running it in a die just sizing to uniform them may be easier without so much size reduction.

jonp
09-21-2013, 07:29 AM
Hey all. Post # 2!
Just stopped at auto zone on the way home from work and bought the two cans they had for $15 and change. The guy asked what I was using it for " 'cause he heard good things about it" and I reluctantly spewed out the boolit coating speech. He said, "yea, that's why the store manager buys all of that we get in".
Who in the Brownstown/Flat Rock area of Michigan that's the store manager of the auto zone is a caster/loader?
BTW, I'm the ultimate noob at casting and you guys are a true inspiration. You're making me spend a lot of money on everything from lead to molds to antique cast iron muffin pans. My wife will probably seek out and kill every one of you.
If you live long enough, I hope to post up some of my own tests with the coatings and be a true contributor to this site so you can see how you've helped me.
Thanks.
Mine came home and noticed the cast iron corncob muffin pan missing from the wall. Cost me dinner out and garage saleing to find a new one. I feel your pain :)

35 shooter
09-21-2013, 10:48 PM
I have been looking at some of the post here on this coating and without going back and reading all of them I have a ? If you under size the bullet to say 451 then coat and your looking a 452 or 453 bullet would that be something that would work. I understand how much is sprayed effects this but running it in a die just sizing to uniform them may be easier without so much size reduction.

RP that's what i was trying to say in post 166. My rifle shoots well with .359 or .360 boolits so sizing to .359 first then painting might work. But i think you probably have to keep the dia. of the lead at a point where it will take the rifeling well, but yes i think it might work. I've been trying to size paint and boolit to the max size all at the same time but that hasn't worked. Just a guess tho.

Centaur 1
09-23-2013, 11:48 AM
I came upon this thread last night and I just got done reading all the posts. One thing really bothers me, the use of ceramic paint. Ceramic is VERY hard, in fact it's so hard that it's used as a coating on carbide cutting tools. Using ceramic paint will more than likely work to fire lap when first used, then continue to abrade the bore until you eventually have a smoothbore.

35 shooter
09-24-2013, 12:29 AM
I came upon this thread last night and I just got done reading all the posts. One thing really bothers me, the use of ceramic paint. Ceramic is VERY hard, in fact it's so hard that it's used as a coating on carbide cutting tools. Using ceramic paint will more than likely work to fire lap when first used, then continue to abrade the bore until you eventually have a smoothbore.

Centaur1 that was definitly a concern on my mind when i tried it. I did say in that last post on it that the coating didn't work. It wasn't even removing the light leading i was getting.
Iwill say the only reason i tried it was the paint didn't set up like a ceramic plate or knife sharpener or the like.
It did get hard enough to go thru the sizer and flexible enough to stay with the boolit after heat treating. But it didn't make it out the barrel intact at even mid range rifle velocity.

But you are right, commercial finishes on tools, ever how they do that, is almost diamond like in hardness and WOULD definitly cause wear on steel. I will say it again as i did in an above post ....The ceramic finish DID NOT work. If it had i would have tried again and watched for any signs of bbl wear but that's a mute point now because it won't stay on for the ride down the bore. Probably a good thing because i definitly wouldn't want me or anyone else to ruin a bbl. because of some experiment i had tried. I think a good idea when experimenting with any coating on a boolit would be to keep slugging the bore for any change until your'e sure of it.

lawboy
10-07-2013, 02:40 AM
Ok. I tried the VHT method on some 207gr. .45ACP LSWC cast from my Mihec brass mould. In a word,
Fantastic. Thanks to the OP for sharing his method with us.
I had great results right out of the gate. Coated 21 boolits. Passed the fingernail and hammer tests. Fired 18 if them semi rapid fire at 50 feet. Grouped fine, no less I g or vote residue of any kid really. The holes in the paper were so clean they loomed hole punched. Not even a hint of a grease ring or anything!
These bullets I sized after coating and that worked although sizing effort through a Lyman 450 was noticeably greater than uncoated lead. The next batch will be sized first. I used the FLAT BLACK coating not gloss.
Here is my process. Size bullets. Tumble in can a few seconds to Smith out any flash from sizing. Stand bullets up on steel plate in rows. Preheat with blower Heater for a couple minutes. Spray on VHT. WAIT 10 minutes. Spray on second coat. Now I let them sit 30 minutes before putting j to toaster oven at 300f for 10-15 mins. OR just let them sit for a week and dry.
I like this a lot and I am going to try the white next.

LubeckTech
10-07-2013, 11:24 AM
The OP tumbled the VHT on to the boolits but I notice some folks are spraying.
Which method is easier and/or better?
Are 3 coats necessary for pistol calibers up to 1,200fps or will 2 work?
I have been power coating for th past fw months with pretty good results but would like to find something a little easier. I have been thinking of trying some Hi-Tek but want to try this first.

Danderdude
10-07-2013, 11:17 PM
On a whim I stopped by Advance Auto and grabbed a can of VHT gloss and VHT matte, along with a can of lacquer thinner from Lowes.

My little bit of experimenting this evening with tumbling was fruitful. Pictured below is straight spraying with gloss VHT tumbling (right), and spraying with 1cc of lacquer thinner per 4 seconds of spraying (left).
83731
Large image: http://i.imgur.com/7hpi9vY.jpg

This gives a very uneven coating. VHT becomes tacky EXTREMELY quickly once sprayed. After 10 minutes, it was practically slick and no longer sticky. I tossed them into the toaster oven @ 250F for 15 minutes, and they were done. I mean, completely cured and finished. However, they will need a second coat at the very least.

Then I tried 1cc of thinner per 2 seconds of spraying (right). This produced a smoother and much more even coat, definitely glossier. However, this produced thick spots from liquid bridging where two rested against each other for any length of time.

I repeated this 1cc:2 seconds ratio with some 3 day old Lee 160gr .452 boolits (left side, the two on the table). Those immediately went into the hardware cloth basket and the toaster oven @ 300F for 10 minutes. As soon as they were cool enough to handle they were easily sized from .454 to .452 in a Lee push-through. There was no indication to the finish that the bullets had been through a sizer, it's that slick that fast. Almost no effort was needed. They passed the smash test with flying colors, but the coating comes off with lacquer thinner and rubbing.

83737
Large: http://i.imgur.com/fAw7ZAd.jpg
The remainder were given a second tumble after sizing with straight spray (above left, in the bin). This produced a complete, but not perfectly smooth, coat.

Shooting trials begin tomorrow morning.

lawboy
10-08-2013, 11:59 PM
Why are people tumbling vht? Seems like more work for a lower quality coating. I stand the bullets on a plastic cutting board, put a box over them with a heater under the box for 2-3 minutes to preheat the bullets. I spray them with vht. The hot bullets cause the volatile carrier to evaporate more quickly, and the epoxy to adhere faster and better. I replace the box and heater for10 minutes then spray again. Let them set a couple hours - I wait overnight- and they are done. Finish is fantastic and bullets perform.

HNSB
10-09-2013, 02:14 AM
I just ordered the glass black from Amazon. I think I'll eventually get a powder gun for ES PC, but this lets me get started in coating with a much lower entry cost.

I can't wait for it to get here.

Danderdude
10-09-2013, 08:37 AM
Why are people tumbling vht?

It's the only economical way. If you stand each up and spray them, it not only takes longer than Alox tumbling, but you waste 9/10th's of the can spraying your table. If you want pretty at any cost, this stuff'll give that to you in spades, but it's certainly not cheaper, in the long run, compared to HiTek, or 45-45-10.

Also, you mention you are heating your boolits to flash off the solvent. In paints, the slower it cures, to more crosslinking can occur during polymerization and therefor a tougher, longer-lasting covering results. VHT wipes right back off with a little lacquer thinner. I think it dries too quickly as it is.

My experimentation with VHT is now over. It works, but not economically. What it does offer is a no-bake alternative to PC and HiTek without the stickiness of LLA, but will cost you more than a Star sizer in the long run. I'm pretty sure nearly any epoxy paint will serve the same purpose.

83822
Those 160gr .45 pills from above were loaded over 5.9gr Red Dot and went down the barrel of my Sarsilmaz K2 with no leading, no residue other than powder, and all hit center mass on a gong @25 yards double tap fast fire. The second mag was emptied into a gong with a pile of very coarse sand in front of it. I'm pretty sure the sand scoured off most of the coating, and they mushroomed beautifully for being such short boolits, but there was still some VHT on the driving bands where the expanding head protected it.

I do believe I'm gonna try HiTek now. VHT is great for repainting press parts. My Lee cast iron turret press handle is quite fetching now.

Danderdude
10-09-2013, 08:55 AM
I'll reiterate, too, my best tumble coating with VHT came from putting on a light "primer" coat of epoxy + lacquer thinner at a rate of 1cc of thinner per 3 seconds of spraying, letting that set up, and following up with a second coat of paint only, no thinner. This is a no-bake recipe. There's absolutely no reason to bake; we're not dealing with plastic particles having to get to their glass transition temperature like PC or HiTek.

HNSB
10-28-2013, 06:08 PM
I shot my test loads of these yesterday, and sighted in my gun with them today.
I was very happy with the performance.

I still plan on getting a PC gun, but for the $11 to get started the VHT was a good option.

I did two coats of spray on - standing the bullets on their bases. These are plain base bullets, with no gas check. I was pushing them at just over 1500 FPS out of my Marlin 1895 and had no leading.

I think a can of VHT would do about 1000 of these 405 grain bullets, depending on how many are sprayed in a batch.

85684

85685

freebullet
10-28-2013, 06:51 PM
This forum is great, you have a thought & find a 10 page thread too read. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

eljefeoz
10-29-2013, 09:53 AM
Looks like this is it?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VHT-EPOXY-SHOCKERS-SUSPENSION-ALL-WEATHER-COATING-SATIN-BLACK-SPRAY-PAINT-SP652-/130971072931?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7e7bf9a3&_uhb=1

I'd like to give it a go on some pure lead Lee 230gr TL in .452
As long as I can get away with no baking...any more non bakers getting good results out there?
TIA

bangerjim
10-29-2013, 11:13 AM
Looks like this is it?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VHT-EPOXY-SHOCKERS-SUSPENSION-ALL-WEATHER-COATING-SATIN-BLACK-SPRAY-PAINT-SP652-/130971072931?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7e7bf9a3&_uhb=1

I'd like to give it a go on some pure lead Lee 230gr TL in .452
As long as I can get away with no baking...any more non bakers getting good results out there?
TIA

I experiment around with ALL the technologies for coating found in these forums and have settled on the ES gun application for speed, repeatability, low cost, and just plain easy to do.

But......I have tried several brands of spray-on epoxies, including VHT, and have found ALL of them work best when baked per the instructions on the cans. Without baking: 1) it may take DAYS for the stuff to dry completely hard, 2) the molecular bond chains do not form properly, 3) usually the stuff will scrape off easily even after setting for a week.

So, the chemical formulations are based upon baking. Unfortunately, those times are MUCH longer than the short 10 minutes it takes for PERFECT powder coating. And the spray cans cost a whole lot more per boolit than powder coating.

Hope you can find powder around where you are!

Good luck.

bangerjim

HNSB
10-29-2013, 12:40 PM
I did not bake mine. IIRC, the can does not say to bake. It will scratch easily if you mess with it before it's cured. Don't handle the bullets for 24 hours.
I didn't load mine for a week after coating. I don't know if that made a difference.

Baking might shorten the cure time...

Tazza
10-29-2013, 05:53 PM
I bought a 20 litre drum of stuff from a place that used to coat projectiles, they have since closed that side down. There is no label left on the drum, but it works great.

The technique they use to apply it is called dip-spin. The way i apply it is to load about 500 projectiles into a basket that i modified to sit in a drum that you use a drill to spin the excess coating off. Dunk the basket with projectiles in the coating, lift it up and let the excess run off. Put the basket into a drum and spin, this allows you to collect excess coating. I then pour out the coated projectiles onto a piece of laminated timber to dry. When dry, you cook them in an oven (not the kitchen oven) at 180c for 12 minutes. Let them cool and repeat the coating process twice more, cooking between coats. They do look terrible between coats, it's a very thin coating, but every extra coat you do, they look closer to what they should be.

Mine is on a far smaller scale than the people used that i got the stuff off, but it works all the same. Works great in my .38 super race gun, and in my mates glock too. No leading at all.

eljefeoz
10-30-2013, 12:32 AM
Yup,Banger J.
Experiment.
I have a couple of kilos of bullet lube to experiment with, and now this.
Tried 2 different auto shops-REPCO included.they had a fair bit of the VHT stuff, but not the epoxy spray.
Well, I was hoping to change the bright red of my little Lee into a shiny black AND do some boolits in the process.
Will get back if it happens. Now to look for a little toaster oven and the shake and bake process- managed a cup of PC paint... ;

Tazza
10-30-2013, 01:30 AM
eljefeoz - i assume you tried supercheap already?

Ken73
10-30-2013, 09:21 PM
While I'll stick to ESPC method myself, this may be a great way to put a light coat on the bottom of already-PC'ed boolits. Spray a bit onto a small sponge and just dab the bottoms onto it? I'm going to pick up a can and try it!

eljefeoz
10-31-2013, 02:56 AM
eljefeoz - i assume you tried supercheap already?

Yup I did, mate. Been asked to check out a speciality paint shop,will do that tomorrow. Both the places had the VHT copper finish,enamel, and other higher temp jobs, but not the purple label epoxy

bangerjim
10-31-2013, 11:32 AM
While I'll stick to ESPC method myself, this may be a great way to put a light coat on the bottom of already-PC'ed boolits. Spray a bit onto a small sponge and just dab the bottoms onto it? I'm going to pick up a can and try it!

Check out #161 & #165 on this thread. I used my standard ES PC's matte black slugs and sprayed them with "paint-like" epoxy paints from VHT and Krylon. Both ARE baked on top of the cured PC. Paint adheres very well...will not scrape off at all. But baking is the key.

It is imperative you bake most any of this stuff. If it says epoxy, bake it. Usually at the time/temp listed on the can. If not listed, use 20 min at about 230-250F.

I see old toaster ovens at junk store all the time for $5-15. I bought a new $85 super-duper one for my wife and took the one in the kitchen that is a convection style. I have an old standard one ($3 at junk store) and the convection is FAR superior in temp distribution and performance. Try to avoid the cheap non-convection ones......you may be disappointed with your results.

bangerjim

eljefeoz
11-01-2013, 09:51 AM
A quick clarification: anyone here tried baking ' epoxy enamel'?
I saw a few cans of Dulux epoxy enamel, but nothing which said 'Epoxy' as posted by the OP
TIA

bangerjim
11-01-2013, 05:11 PM
A quick clarification: anyone here tried baking ' epoxy enamel'?
I saw a few cans of Dulux epoxy enamel, but nothing which said 'Epoxy' as posted by the OP
TIA

Try it! There are many paint formulations, so it is hard to know.

If it is epoxy, chances are it needs to be baked to activate the polymer links. I would not trust non-bake epoxies for what we need them to do.

Baking standard enamel paint will make it dry much faster ( it takes a week for all the VOC's to completely evaporate from enamel) but will not come close to true epoxy formulations.

Good luck!

banger

Ken73
11-02-2013, 03:08 PM
Check out #161 & #165 on this thread. I used my standard ES PC's matte black slugs and sprayed them with "paint-like" epoxy paints from VHT and Krylon. Both ARE baked on top of the cured PC. Paint adheres very well...will not scrape off at all. But baking is the key.

It is imperative you bake most any of this stuff. If it says epoxy, bake it. Usually at the time/temp listed on the can. If not listed, use 20 min at about 230-250F.


Gotcha. My purpose is simply to fully encapsulate already PC'ed boolits (just the base.) I figured I could take the PC'ed boolits off the tray (cooled of course,) doink them on a sponge that's been sprayed with the epoxy paint to get it on, then lay back in the toaster oven and bake for a bit longer. Just something to coat the base to prevent lead vaporization.

Skip62
11-02-2013, 05:08 PM
Try it! There are many paint formulations, so it is hard to know.

If it is epoxy, chances are it needs to be baked to activate the polymer links. I would not trust non-bake epoxies for what we need them to do.

Baking standard enamel paint will make it dry much faster ( it takes a week for all the VOC's to completely evaporate from enamel) but will not come close to true epoxy formulations.

Good luck!

banger

Ah, Klass Kote is a no bake epoxy paint. I and others have shot thousands this summer, no problems. You can warm them to 125, per KK's instructions to speed the curing process, but not needed. I stay way ahead of my needs, so waiting a week is not a problem at all. VHT is also a no bake. The 250° on the front of the can is the temp it's good to, not the temp to cure at. I've done those to. It's all in how they are formulated.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

eljefeoz
11-02-2013, 07:17 PM
one used oven toaster coming up...

Skip62
11-02-2013, 09:26 PM
one used oven toaster coming up...

That's exactly why I use KK. I've bought 2 toasters and neither one held temp within less than 100. I do use a heat gun briefly to cure quicker for following coats, but I've not bothered many times.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

eljefeoz
11-03-2013, 09:08 AM
Skip
I may as well track down some VHT come Wednesday . It's the long weekend here for the Melbourne Cup.I did see VHTstuff which said 500*F , but it wasn't epoxy...I may as well try some unbaked too ;)

eljefeoz
11-10-2013, 12:28 AM
Thought I'd give it a whirl:
some Lee 452 TL 230 w/ PB: Chilled shot 4:1, and a batch of a dozen Lee .309 with same alloy

2 coats spaced 24h apart- its a cold wet day so far. will stretch a bit, and cure them tomorrow at 200* C in an oven, as per curing advice on can...

87060

eljefeoz
11-11-2013, 09:57 PM
sized to 0.452", smashed.
not a flake disturbed.
lets see how they do...

beex215
11-11-2013, 10:20 PM
this is one of the reasons why cast boolits is a great site. this is on my must try list.

HNSB
11-13-2013, 01:33 AM
With the cold MN weather and repeated loading and unloading in my Marlin 1895, the VHT has not held up well.
The damage is only aesthetic though, I'm sure what's inside the case remains coated fine.

AlaskanGuy
11-13-2013, 02:26 AM
I tried the white vht yesterday.... Was not too happy... Just diddnt get real hard, and could be scraped off with a fingernail... No joy on the white... Back to the melting pot... Will post pics tomorow. I did post in another thread here in the lube area.
87340

eljefeoz
11-13-2013, 05:09 AM
I should try red or orange if this works out in the ' test by fire'
A mate with a .45 has volunteered to try out 2 mags of the black 'duplicolor' coated pills.
Hopefully soon. Will post pics when I find the digi,I find the iphone cant do a good close up...
Alaskanguy, why dont you try wrapping the VHT coated boolits in aluminum cooking foil and give them 200 deg for 12-15 min in an oven? I did that on my trial samples,all well there.

Skip62
11-13-2013, 08:55 AM
I tried the white vht yesterday.... Was not too happy... Just diddnt get real hard, and could be scraped off with a fingernail... No joy on the white... Back to the melting pot... Will post pics tomorow. I did post in another thread here in the lube area.
87340

The problem is "yesterday" it takes 7 days to cure. Heat will help, but they still won't be fully cured for days. This is epoxy, which chemically cures, unlike powder coat that cures with heat. Rushing the chemical reaction won't provide the bond that the product was designed for. Don't believe me, let them set.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

HNSB
11-21-2013, 09:01 PM
Has anyone else handled these in the cold? I had a lot of chipping while hunting.
Just tonight I went to load a couple for my 9mm. My shop isn't heated, so everything was cold when I started (23 deg. F). The seating die chipped the VHT off the nose of every one I loaded.
Then I took one from another batch and smashed it with a hammer, and the coating flaked off.

I'm curious if anyone else has had the same problem.

Captain Capsize
11-25-2013, 09:48 AM
Pardon my ignorance, I have been reloading over 20 years and just came upon this thread. I have read many of the posts and am still trying to understand why powder coat or epoxy coat bullets? Am I missing something here?

edit

Ok, I just read some posts from the powder coating thread, I guess the simple answer is "because I can and I don't have much else to do".

sparky45
11-25-2013, 09:57 AM
If you like sticky bullets, dirty gummed up Dies, and that rush of "smoke" when you reload and shoot, then you aren't missing anything.:kidding:

fcvan
11-26-2013, 04:24 PM
Captain Capsize, PC boolits work very well in every caliber I've tried them in. My initial interest was for shooting the Lyman 225-415 in a Mini 14 and an AR platform. The tough coating protects the projectile during cycling whereas plain cast boolits were subject to nose deformation. This holds true for pistol calibers as well. With the ability to shoot lead more accurately at higher velocities, and zero leading, I'm using PCd boolits almost exclusively of late. I still use gas checks on those molds I have which have a check shank as I make my own checks. I have plain based check makers too but don't feel like they are needed due to the performance of the PCd boolits. If PB checks improve accuracy I will surely use them. It's not a fad in my mind, PCd boolits are more of a breakthrough in cast boolit technology.

vintagesportsman
11-28-2013, 07:22 PM
Well, just read the thread and now I must try!
One observation too...I was a professional painter in a past life. Some guys on this thread have success and some do not. Watch the following variables:
1. Humidity: One guy in Arizona will have no problem while another guy in Washington state does. In painting, humidity is not your friend
2. Many thin coats beat one thick coat ALWAYS!
3. Tumble bullets in thinner BEFORE painting! This will ensure that they are clean and ready to be painted.
4. Baking is only necessary in milder/humid climates OR when we want it done yesterday. Seems that if you prep one weekend for the next weekends shoot you will have some decent rounds to send DR
I WILL try this soon and report back. I just ran up a couple hundred 8mm rounds last night so I will spray this week and let you know.
Thanks for the posts - I am learning a lot :coffee:

LubeckTech
11-28-2013, 11:51 PM
Hi Captain!

I powder coat because I shoot competition events like IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge and 3 Gun and like to use bullets I cast myself vs Jacketed or plated bullets because of the expense. For me the problem is after over 100 rounds of conventionally lubricated bullets I wind up with so much gunk in the gun it begins to malfunction. I have tried many lubricants including Alox (normal tumbling and 45/45/10) and powder coated cast bullets don't leave my guns
gummed up after 150+ rounds of an afternoon's session. If you shoot 50 rounds and go home and clean your gun you probably don't see the need to worry about how a bullet is lubricated. From what I have found in my 2.5 years of casting powder coating gives me CLEAN bullets and loaded ammunition that WORK in my guns with less smoke than anything I have tried. Sure I have better things to do with my time but I have more time than money and if the situation were reversed I would probably not even need to cast - although it is FUN. I don't save money by casting or reloading for that matter but I get to shoot ALOT more which means I shoot better, score better and enjoy it more!!

NSP64
11-29-2013, 12:34 PM
. I don't save money by casting or reloading for that matter but I get to shoot ALOT more


No truer words have been spoken.

I just got done reading this thread and think I might try ESPC on some boolits.

bangerjim
11-29-2013, 01:15 PM
No truer words have been spoken.

I just got done reading this thread and think I might try ESPC on some boolits.

You will not be sorry and will be amazed at how perfect the ES gun applies the powder! No lumps, clumps, drips, runs, or errors! (Play Ball!)

One coat and ONE bake is all I use for perfect no-leading loads.

banger

LubeckTech
11-29-2013, 02:45 PM
CLEAN bullets that don't lead - what could be better??????????????????

vintagesportsman
11-30-2013, 04:53 PM
Just picked up some VHT in Gloss Black. Trying it on some 205 gr. Lee cast with roofers lead. Prepped cases last night. Will try to shoot some this week and post.

Tech2
12-22-2013, 02:07 PM
Hi guys
Thanks for the interesting research.
From my knot hole I can see a distinct advantage to hard coat vs lube.
I have a LnL progressive set up for 9mm that I batch several thousand rounds through at a time.
I mostly reload copper because of the variety of firearms that may be consuming my hard work.
I could work up loads for each firearm but separation, inventory and fear of cross contamination would be a pain so I only run lead in my CZ.
I also worry that if I don't shoot the lubed boolits for a year or more that my lube may be drying out or even contaminating the powder.
Lastly I don't take lead out to the range with a larger group of people because there is usually some form of food or drink that shows up.

Hard coating, epoxy or powder coat seems to solve most of my concerns with reloading cast projectiles.
Leading issues virtually eliminated.
Great long term stability, The powder is probably fully sealed.
No tuning necessary for individual firearms.
No sticky boolits.
Less exposure to lead.
No burnt lube smoke.
NO MORE LUBE EXPERIMENTS (what will I do with all my spare time??)
I am looking at this as a way to definitely step up my game.

dverna
12-23-2013, 03:36 PM
Pardon my ignorance, I have been reloading over 20 years and just came upon this thread. I have read many of the posts and am still trying to understand why powder coat or epoxy coat bullets? Am I missing something here?

edit

Ok, I just read some posts from the powder coating thread, I guess the simple answer is "because I can and I don't have much else to do".

CC
For a long time I felt the same way. But if we all drove Fords it would be a boring world. Some people like "Purdy" bullets, some people like "clean' bullets, some people like the lack of smoke, some people have only pan lubed so coating is more attractive. There are a lot of reasons why coated bullets have a following.

Currently, there is concern that PC's bullets may cause erosion of bores. This is not proven but suspect only at this point. But PC bullets show the most promise for high velocity rifle loads.

Hy-Tek coating seems to be the best way to "lube" pistol and lower velocity rifle loads inexpensively and in quantity. I will continue to use a Star for pistol bullets but not everyone has (or wants) a Star.

I have a thread on 2 MOA or better at 2200 fps or greater and so far only one person has been able to achieve that and it was with PC'ed bullets. I think that demonstrates most "coaters" are pistol shooters and not much work is going on with coated rifle bullets at rifle velocities.

The interest in coatings may be a fad but it may also lead the way to improved performance. We are still at the crawling and baby step stages. But progress is occurring.

Don Verna (who is still going to use traditional lubes because they work for me - but is willing to change when a better way is found)

sirAIG
12-23-2013, 05:05 PM
Please reference/explain this claimed possibility that PC Boolits may cause bore erosion issues. PC is plastic. I cannot possibly see how that would cause erosion/wear anymore than jacketed/lead Boolits at that point.

bangerjim
12-23-2013, 06:05 PM
There are some "doubting Thomas's" around here that think they have seen erosion in the barrel from powder coating. It is totally unfounded. The PC is harder than lead but MUCH softer than the barrel steel. Mabe if you shoot 100K rounds you will see wear, but that happens with lead too!

And you think Cu jacketed causes no erosion/wear??????

PC is slick and it's components that I can find are NOT abrasive. I have not analyzed ALL powders, so please, no nasty comments. But the "hard" coating it forms protects the barrel from the lead much better than any witch's brew grease.

Granted, the PC phenomenon is relatively new and as with any new endeavor, only time and field testing will yield any concrete results.

For now, I am 100% PC. Grease is just too messy and relatively unreliable due to all the potential variables than can creep into different formulas and batches. At least with ES gun PC, it is completely reliable, totally repeatable, and cool to do and shoot. I cannot say as much for the liquid slopping and dry tumble application methods.

Good shooting!

banger

Maximumbob54
12-24-2013, 10:02 AM
Is anyone else trying the various Lee TL molds and having better luck with them than any standard lube groove molds?

bstone5
12-24-2013, 01:28 PM
I have powder coated a Lee TL bullet for 40 S&W without any problems. I use an ES gun to apply the powder coat.

They shoot fine with out any leading, a light crimp is used so as not to damage the powder coated surface on the bullet.

With powder coated bullets the case has a generous bell to keep from damaging the powder coated surface while seating the bullet.

bangerjim
12-24-2013, 03:46 PM
Is anyone else trying the various Lee TL molds and having better luck with them than any standard lube groove molds?

I have over 20 molds, some TL some not. All coat and shoot the same as far as I can determine. As mentioned by bstone5, give the case a little extra bell to help the boolit seat without the worry of scraping any PC off. I have never had any come off in MANY thousands of round!

Then, depending on the design, a light crimp. Do not overdue the crimp or the slug will/could scrape off some of the coating as it exits the casing!

banger

PodPeople
12-24-2013, 10:07 PM
Then, depending on the design, a light crimp. Do not overdue the crimp or the slug will/could scrape off some of the coating as it exits the casing!

banger

Please pardon this newby question, but how much is a "light crimp"? I have stopped using my Lee factory crimp dies (because they tend to swage down the boolit diameter) and just use the seating die to crimp. Should I screw the die in 1/4 revolution or some lesser or greater amount? I don't know how to judge the adequacy of a crimp.

wiersy111
12-25-2013, 01:07 AM
Very interesting thread.

Theunsb
01-14-2014, 03:36 PM
Thank you all for the hard work. I will follow this thread closely.

NVScouter
01-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Made some last night in .309 .379 and .460. Try them in 7 days.

Nikolaus
01-19-2014, 11:15 PM
I'm new to casting and still gathering materials and tools. I am certain I am going to start with PC or Epoxy coating and skip the lube. Thanks for all the great info!

bangerjim
01-20-2014, 02:24 PM
I'm new to casting and still gathering materials and tools. I am certain I am going to start with PC or Epoxy coating and skip the lube. Thanks for all the great info!


Welcome!

There is tons of info on here. Take the time to read ALL the stickys......lots of info!

My standard is ESPC, but many are using dry coating. I have not been happy with the finish and evenness, but give it try and judge for yourself.

Again, welcome to the habit!

bangerjim

dverna
01-21-2014, 12:46 AM
Please reference/explain this claimed possibility that PC Boolits may cause bore erosion issues. PC is plastic. I cannot possibly see how that would cause erosion/wear anymore than jacketed/lead Boolits at that point.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222947-Strange-problem-encountered-with-PD-d-bullets

I just reported what I read. Lot's of people have opinions. I have them too.

But to comment on your opinion I do not think lead is going to wear out barrel unless you lead it up and get aggressive trying to get it clean. But 60-70,000 rounds may not be much of a test.

w5pv
01-25-2014, 03:36 PM
Tractor Supply has the applince spray epoxy less than $4.00,I have used on metals but not boolits,It may work?

bangerjim
01-25-2014, 09:11 PM
Tractor Supply has the applince spray epoxy less than $4.00,I have used on metals but not boolits,It may work?

It gets relatively hard .......eventually. I used Rustoleum and baked it 250F for 20 min. Still did not firm up for several days. If you are in no hurry, will probably work. For $4, try it. There is always a do-over in the casting pot!!!!!!

Check the can for any baking info. Most epoxys need to bake to form the molecular bonds.

banger

smokesahoy
01-27-2014, 07:22 AM
I tried this, results for me were unsatisfactory. 1 coat applied per instructions on can, another coat a week later. every week i check them and I'm still not satisfied. I will remelt the bullets I tried.

It was on newly cast bullets. I could hammer them with a little flaking, but my fingernail took the coating off real easy each time I tested it over the weeks. They may eventually cure but this is not a system that I will enjoy doing long term, hoping the es gun will be what I need.

I wanted to thank you for thinking outside the box though. all these ideas, even the ones that don't work for me personally only serve to enrich our hobby and increase our options.

Hang Fire
01-28-2014, 04:11 PM
Dang, I ordered a can of the VHT epoxy paint for $8.99 from Amazon Prime (free shipping) yesterday and UPS just now beeped horn It was overnight expressed here to AZ, now that is service.

sirAIG
01-28-2014, 06:57 PM
I tried this, results for me were unsatisfactory. 1 coat applied per instructions on can, another coat a week later. every week i check them and I'm still not satisfied. I will remelt the bullets I tried.

It was on newly cast bullets. I could hammer them with a little flaking, but my fingernail took the coating off real easy each time I tested it over the weeks. They may eventually cure but this is not a system that I will enjoy doing long term, hoping the es gun will be what I need.

I wanted to thank you for thinking outside the box though. all these ideas, even the ones that don't work for me personally only serve to enrich our hobby and increase our options.

The epoxy coatings need to be baked. There is no way around it. I shot 500-750 ends of VHT coated Boolits before moving to an ES PC method

Hang Fire
01-29-2014, 05:04 PM
Well, on the vht epoxy directions on the can it says to bake for faster curing,...

Where on the can did you read that? I just went all over the VHT can with magnifying glass and found nothing about baking?

Hang Fire
01-29-2014, 05:50 PM
Wow... I like simple, and this thread really got me going...

I also DON'T like all the smoke that comes from shooting PB boolits... I know, 99% of casters say "you don' need no stinkin' gas check on 38's or 45's"... I still hate the cloud in front of my muzzle when I pull the trigger, especially indoors... So I've been trying Powder Coating, using a Sears electric PC kit, with marginal success... Gotta be a better way!! And this may be it...

I just drilled some holes in a scrap board to stand up some boolits, tip down, 'cuz I like to cover the base instead of using a Gas Check... Kinda makes 'em look like the old Winchester Silver Tips, doesn't it??!! Sprayed a coat, let air dry, spray another coat, air dry and bake... Toaster oven was set at 350 deg, but not certain what the real temp was... let 'em bake 10-15 minutes....

Oh yeah... this is the VHT 'epoxy' paint from the auto store...


80961

That looks good, thanks for your post. I will drill some hard wood boards for spraying the boolits. But I also have some pieces of aluminum plate, think I will drill one side for a certain size boolit, then flip over and drill the other side for another size. Then use the drilled aluminum plates for the baking thingy with the coated boolits standing upright to avoid sticking together and etc..

bangerjim
01-29-2014, 09:02 PM
Where on the can did you read that? I just went all over the VHT can with magnifying glass and found nothing about baking?

Keep in mind there are numerous types of the VHT brand of coatings. The ones that work pretty well for us are available from your local Auto Zone, Checker, etc. It is hi-temp engine epoxy and states on the can that a hi-temp bake is needed to form the bond. The bake can be either a real bake (which we do), or running the engine to temp for a period of time - which what the stuff was originally designed for.

Sounds like you may have a version of VHT that is not the hi-temp stuff. I have 2 cans of it. It will not get as hard and takes much longer to cure. Check out their website for all the info on the different variations they have.

The only one I have found here in the PHX auto stores is the gloss black. They do make a white according to their site. As I said above, it does eventually get hard after baking, but PC hardens in 10 minutes (when cool). No additional time required for curing/drying.

And VHT is extremely expensive as opposed to PC'ing.

Have fun coating!

bangerjim

Hang Fire
01-30-2014, 03:14 PM
The can I have is exactly the same as the one posted by OP, including 250 f on the front label. the calipers Most all the high temp stuff is not just epoxy, but contains ceramic. Most other epoxy coatings show temps as N/A.
Go here to read about all VHT products. http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/epoxypaint/

http://www.vhtpaint.com/img/can0006epoxypaint.gif
VHT EPOXY ALL WEATHER PAINT
VHT Epoxy Paint is a one-step epoxy coating, which does not require the use of a primer. It has been formulated to give the appearance and durability of a baked-on finish. It provides a porcelain-like finish that is chemical, corrosion, rust and salt resistant.

Temperature: 250°F (121°C)

Applications: Suspension, Kick Panels, Tools

Finish: Gloss and Satin

Dry Time: Dries to the touch in 30 mins. Dries thoroughly overnight. No curing required.

Coating System
VHT provides a multi-high performance coating system for the ultimate in protection and quality. This system includes surface preparation and Epoxy Paint.

Prep SP445 Prep Spray
Coat SPXXX Epoxy Color

sirAIG
01-31-2014, 12:09 AM
The can I have is exactly the same as the one posted by OP, including 250 f on the front label. the calipers Most all the high temp stuff is not just epoxy, but contains ceramic. Most other epoxy coatings show temps as N/A.
Go here to read about all VHT products. http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/epoxypaint/

http://www.vhtpaint.com/img/can0006epoxypaint.gif
VHT EPOXY ALL WEATHER PAINT
VHT Epoxy Paint is a one-step epoxy coating, which does not require the use of a primer. It has been formulated to give the appearance and durability of a baked-on finish. It provides a porcelain-like finish that is chemical, corrosion, rust and salt resistant.

Temperature: 250°F (121°C)

Applications: Suspension, Kick Panels, Tools

Finish: Gloss and Satin

Dry Time: Dries to the touch in 30 mins. Dries thoroughly overnight. No curing required.

Coating System
VHT provides a multi-high performance coating system for the ultimate in protection and quality. This system includes surface preparation and Epoxy Paint.

Prep SP445 Prep Spray
Coat SPXXX Epoxy Color

Not trying to be rude, but everyone here has baked VHT will good success. Why not just try it? Who cares what it says on the can.

HNSB
01-31-2014, 05:48 AM
I don't know what the temperature is like where you are using it... In cold weather it chipped and flaked for me. Baking or not didn't matter.
The can I got from the Amazon link earlier in the thread had no instructions about baking.
I did not bake the first batch. When they flaked I did another with baking. It was no better.

It does not hold up in cold temps.

Hang Fire
01-31-2014, 10:00 AM
Not trying to be rude, but everyone here has baked VHT will good success. Why not just try it? Who cares what it says on the can.

Everyone? Not trying to be rude, but after reading all the threads, that is quite an inaccurate blanket statement.

bangerjim
01-31-2014, 03:56 PM
Everyone? Not trying to be rude, but after reading all the threads, that is quite an inaccurate blanket statement.

Here on the forum we share our successes and failures alike on these new techniques. I have lots of both! This is really the only place to go that I know of with this vast knowledge available.....FOR FREE!

When people report on what works for them, I generally use it and save myself time, money, and frustration. If you wish to experiment around, feel free. Just please let us know what you find out if it differs from the many other reports.


have fun coating and shooting!

bangerjim

NVScouter
02-03-2014, 11:59 AM
I just sized mine and the results of no bake were pretty iffy. Epoxy was cleaned off part of any band that was sized. I had one the mold wasnt fully closed on so was bigger. That one everything came out siver and shiny. I waited over two weeks for cure.

I still have my .379 adn .459 boolits to size, I'll bake those before. Give it a go..if it doesnt work I'll use the paint on auto parts like I'm suposed to.

sirAIG
02-03-2014, 12:19 PM
Everyone? Not trying to be rude, but after reading all the threads, that is quite an inaccurate blanket statement.

I should have specified... Anyone who used the product with success has baked it.

Just try it.

hunter12
02-15-2014, 01:03 PM
I purchased my bullets and they are already coated with regular lube, how can I remove the lube so that I can apply one of the coatings mentioned in this LONG thread?

sirAIG
02-15-2014, 08:35 PM
I can't think of an easy/clean way to get all of the lube off. I would shoot them and cast up some fresh ones

borg
02-15-2014, 09:51 PM
You might try boiling them in water, then letting it cool and scrape off the lube.
Let dry, then tumble them in corncob

hunter12
02-15-2014, 10:51 PM
I'm not set up to cast and I was trying to figure a way to prevent leading. Scraping is not an option, I'll shoot them and buy plated next time. That is if I can't find the "painted" bullets for less than plated.

But thanks for the help, maybe I'll get lucky yet…

Shotgundrums
02-20-2014, 03:09 PM
Yes boil them in water, then let them sit in mineral spirits for a few hours...slosh them around periodically. Then...wash and slosh them with your hands in hot soapy water. Bit of a process but it works.

bangerjim
02-20-2014, 08:09 PM
From another thread I posted on the same subject of lube removal:


I have removed the old lube from MANY boolits in the past....coated with various formulas.

1. Soak in LAC THINNER overnight
2. Swirl for several minutes. Drain off and keep for at least 2 more batches
3. Rinse in clean laq thinner (save for 1st step when original gets "gunked up") & drain.
4. Swirl in VERY hot water + Simple Green to cut all remining grease films
5. Drain
6. Rinse in HOT water
7. Allow to dry

You will then have perfectly clean grease-free boolits you can coat any way you like. I PC everything now. Better than any grease lubes.

bangerjim

dmboct19
05-27-2014, 11:46 AM
Ok, I read all the info here on epoxy painting and would like an opinion, which VHT from the auto stores works best because they have the stuff with the 250 degree on the can and a very high temp type that has 1300 on the can and it also has ceramic in it, which one works best? thanks!

sirAIG
05-27-2014, 12:12 PM
Stay away from the ceramic based coatings. They are very hard and I imagine could cause premature barrel wear

bangerjim
05-27-2014, 03:44 PM
Get the black epoxy stuff that is rated at 650.

The copper "hi-temp" paint (not epoxy) works good over ESPC matte black from HF. I would NOT recommend it as the only coating!

banger