Cartridges that almost were

[youngda9]

There are many cartridges out there. What are the ones that you wish were tweaked ever so slightly to end up with something you think would result in a much better round...or fill a void.

For example 30-30 without the taper and a more squared shoulder. for increased capacity. and operating at a bit higher pressure would be great.

[Janoosh]

25 Hornet...in a single shot, drop block rifle...it would be Ideal for boolits!

[Outpost75]

The. 35/.30-30, one of the easiest and flexible wildats, from "cat sneeze" to moose buster!

[theperfessor]

A 9mm rimmed case that has identical dimensions to a 9mm Auto but with a thick rim. An analog to the .45 AR for use in revolvers. I have mentioned this in the past and been told that the .38 S&W is awfully close but because it was chambered in "weak" revolvers it would be dangerous to have a high pressure cartridge that could fit these old guns.

On the other hand, a rimmed 9mm case is short enough to eject fully from a short barreled revolver and would easily provide +P+ performance.

[mdi]

A 9mm rimmed case that has identical dimensions to a 9mm Auto but with a thick rim. An analog to the .45 AR for use in revolvers. I have mentioned this in the past and been told that the .38 S&W is awfully close but because it was chambered in "weak" revolvers it would be dangerous to have a high pressure cartridge that could fit these old guns.

On the other hand, a rimmed 9mm case is short enough to eject fully from a short barreled revolver and would easily provide +P+ performance.
OK. Memory kinda fuzzy, but I believe a rimmed 9mm was tried several years ago. I think it was called the "9mm Federal". Like I said the memory is kinda fuzzy, but I think it was designed for the same reasons thr 45 Auto Rim was developed. BTW, it was a flop...

Some one mentioned a 30-30 with less taper and more shoulder; 30-30 AI (Ackley Improved)...

[truckjohn]

The hardest part is that the cartridges that *Really* were successful were successful for good reason.....

For example.... The 30-30's large body taper makes for very very easy loading and extraction... which is nice when you want a fast loading and extra-sure extraction in a rifle where you don't have a ton of leverage.... The long neck allows for longer cast bullets without risking exposed grease grooves that pick up grit and trash......

The biggest ones that I really wish we saw become more popular were the numerous lower power, lower velocity rifle cartridges... The larger family of Hornets, wasps, donaldsons, and others like this.... I really feel like those of us "Back East" who hunt mostly on smaller woodlots, small (Less than 10 acre) "farms", and in brushy back yards lost out to the Out West "Varminters" who really did need to make 400+ yard shots.. but didn't have any neighbors to complain about the noise.... We don't really have many small, compact, quiet rifle cartridges that are good for a 50 yard shot on a Woodchuck, but don't scare/alarm the neighbors when they light it off (Who then call the police)....

Thanks

[1Shirt]

Agree with Outpost! A commercial 35-30-30 would be the cats a$$ and would sell like hotcakes!
1Shirt!

[rr2241tx]

OK. Memory kinda fuzzy, but I believe a rimmed 9mm was tried several years ago. I think it was called the "9mm Federal". Like I said the memory is kinda fuzzy, but I think it was designed for the same reasons thr 45 Auto Rim was developed. BTW, it was a flop...

Some one mentioned a 30-30 with less taper and more shoulder; 30-30 AI (Ackley Improved)...

Hmm, I thought you were talking about .307 Winchester which is essentially a rimmed .308 Win.

[youngda9]

Hmm, I thought you were talking about .307 Winchester which is essentially a rimmed .308 Win.
I wish there was a 358 Winchester factory chambered Marlin levergun that would shoot full power loads (52,000 CUP).

[groovy mike]

Agree with Outpost! A commercial 35-30-30 would be the cats a$$ and would sell like hotcakes!
1Shirt!

I think you are talking about something like the old .360 express which is basically a 38-55 straight walled then tapered to crimp a 9.3 mm bullet.

[Outpost75]

The .360 Express is like a .38-55, but longer and smaller bore, similar to the .35 WCF, based on a .303 British basic case blown out in a manner resembling a .38-55, but with 1/2" long cylindrical neck and gently tapered body with no pronounced shoulder. Cordite loads featured a 270-grain jacketed bullet at about 2000 fps. I knew a Brit gentleman who owned a Lee Speed sporting rifle in this caliber and we loaded for it with the 270-grain Hornady RN available at that time and a nominal caseful, lightly compressed of 4831 or 4350, which shot "on" to the various dress parade open sights out to 200 yards. It was a good deer and black bear killer.

[smkummer]

A 9mm rimmed case that has identical dimensions to a 9mm Auto but with a thick rim. An analog to the .45 AR for use in revolvers. I have mentioned this in the past and been told that the .38 S&W is awfully close but because it was chambered in "weak" revolvers it would be dangerous to have a high pressure cartridge that could fit these old guns.

On the other hand, a rimmed 9mm case is short enough to eject fully from a short barreled revolver and would easily provide +P+ performance.

Its already been done, 9mm federal and it caused problems so the cases and ammo was discontinued. It would fit in a 38S&W and some people don't care to read boxes and if a cartridge fits, they shoot it. Bad deal for some turn of the century top breaks that operated on 1/3 the pressure of 9mm.

[Janoosh]

+1 truckjohn. Which is why I mentioned the 25 Hornet. Although the 35/30 is sounding real good. And what a variety of Boolits.

[376Steyr]

The .25-222 Copperhead wildcat is on my wishlist. I'm slowly building one, but it would be nice if I could stroll into my local gunshop and pick up a Remington Model 7 ready to go.

[detox]

All voids have been filled many years ago

[jonp]

The hardest part is that the cartridges that *Really* were successful were successful for good reason.....

For example.... The 30-30's large body taper makes for very very easy loading and extraction... which is nice when you want a fast loading and extra-sure extraction in a rifle where you don't have a ton of leverage.... The long neck allows for longer cast bullets without risking exposed grease grooves that pick up grit and trash......

The biggest ones that I really wish we saw become more popular were the numerous lower power, lower velocity rifle cartridges... The larger family of Hornets, wasps, donaldsons, and others like this.... I really feel like those of us "Back East" who hunt mostly on smaller woodlots, small (Less than 10 acre) "farms", and in brushy back yards lost out to the Out West "Varminters" who really did need to make 400+ yard shots.. but didn't have any neighbors to complain about the noise.... We don't really have many small, compact, quiet rifle cartridges that are good for a 50 yard shot on a Woodchuck, but don't scare/alarm the neighbors when they light it off (Who then call the police)....

Thanks
I understand what you are saying but if I had every rabbit, woodchuck, squirrel and partridge i've taken fr 50yrds and in with a 22lr and mag I'd eat well for a couple of years

[JeffinNZ]

It's a great shame the 5mm Remington fell over when it did. A cartridge ahead of its time. If launched today with the new powders and lighter, poly tipped projectiles, it would be a screamer.

[Rifleman55]

I believe that the Hornet was made from the old .25-20. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[texassako]

+1 Janoosh, except I want a .25 Hornet revolver kind of like the Taurus that came in .218 Bee. I have wanted one ever since reading about Glen Fryxell's conversion of a Blackhawk.

[high standard 40]

I believe that the Hornet was made from the old .25-20. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

No, that's a different case. Case head diameter on the Hornet is .299" and on the 25-20 it is .347"

[jonp]

I think the Hornet was developed on it's own with no parent case.

[Harter66]

Well for my own reasons , 9mm Win mag, and the Auto-mag clan .

[mpmarty]

I used to have a 38/45 clerk barrel in a 1911 and necking the 45acp down to 356 with a sharp shoulder and a max load of Herco was impressive at both ends. The 1911 would feed empty cases due to the bottle neck shape going into that huge 45acp hole. That was the beginning of smily fired cases.

[Oreo]

I think a number of bottle neck rifle cartridges would increase their cast boolit friendliness and utility if they had longer necks. Imagine a 308 with the neck of a 30-30.

[Green Lizzard]

22 wcf parent case for hornet

[kenyerian]

Green Lizzard is correct. The 22WCF was an old Blackpowder cartridge that was wild catted in the 1920's and developed by Winchester in the 30's.
I like the Hornet and the K Hornet. It's hard to find a combination that hasn't been tried. One of my favorites is the 22-250. I'm also fond of the
7MM TCU.

[bandit7.5]

The. 35/.30-30, one of the easiest and flexible wildats, from "cat sneeze" to moose buster!

Isn't that called 35harret

[high standard 40]

Isn't that called 35harret

The 357 Herrett is based on the 30-30 case but the case is shortened to 1.750" as opposed to the 35/30-30 being a full length case.

[fcvan]

I remember the 45 ACP neck down cartridges 357 Bobcat and 41 Avenger. Both were neat ideas but limited to the pressure range of the ACP brass. 25 years ago, Dean Grennel started trimming down 45 win mag brass for his 45 Super cartridge. He also used the mag brass for the Bobcat and Avenger rounds which of course improved their performance. A simple barrel and spring change and the 1911 became a different animal.

[Piedmont]

Its already been done, 9mm federal and it caused problems so the cases and ammo was discontinued. It would fit in a 38S&W and some people don't care to read boxes and if a cartridge fits, they shoot it. Bad deal for some turn of the century top breaks that operated on 1/3 the pressure of 9mm.

You missed the part where he said with a thick rim like an auto rim. That should keep it from chambering in .38 S&Ws.

[Piedmont]

I would love to see a rimmed 10 mm for revolvers. Put that in a medium frame single action and it would be about perfect for what I need in a revolver (not a big game hunter). I would probably load mine down a bit. Many, many times I have considered having a properly made .41 Long Colt with .386 cylinder throats and a barrel with a .385 groove diameter commissioned. But it never makes enough sense to actually do it and the Starline brass is about 3 times normal price.

My good friend had a .40 S&W custom medium frame Blackhawk made. That is very close and offers all that cheap once fired brass from those bottom feeders. But revolvers were made for rimmed cases, so a 10 mm rimmed would be even better.

The auto boys got their medium calibers. We revolver shooters need something like that that is more efficient and less powerful than the .41 Magnum.

[Mk42gunner]

Piedmont, I think that would be the .40 (or .400) Eimer, (hope I spelled his name right). IIRC it was a cut down .30-40 or .401 WSL case.

Pop Eimer was a custom gunsmith in Joplin, MO around the depression; and did a lot of stuff that was really ahead of the times.

I haven't knowingly seen any of his work, but I remember Skeeter Skelton writing about some of it.

Robert

[Piedmont]

Piedmont, I think that would be the .40 (or .400) Eimer, (hope I spelled his name right). IIRC it was a cut down .30-40 or .401 WSL case.

Pop Eimer was a custom gunsmith in Joplin, MO around the depression; and did a lot of stuff that was really ahead of the times.

I haven't knowingly seen any of his work, but I remember Skeeter Skelton writing about some of it.

Robert

Yes, Eimer and Boser did the same thing and I have considered putting one of them together. How cool would it be to have a revolver with something like .401 Eimer stamped on it? Only real gunnies would have a clue what it was. When I looked more deeply into it I found the case was magnum length. One can run a .41 mag case through a 10mm die and basically get that. Either a special chamber to allow for what can't be resized just above the rim, or turning the cases at the base would have to be done. What turned me against it was it would just be a .40 magnum. I want a .40 Special, or .40 Schofield, or .40 Russian if I may use those terms.

And I know various smiths did .41 Specials, but I am passionate in my hate for trimming cases.

So if I can have anything I want a rimmed 10mm. I've got to say that .40 S&W mid-frame Ruger SA my buddy has is about as sweet as guns get. Only my no-new-calibers rule is holding me back, but the flesh is weak!

Wouldn't it be nice if Lipsey's or someone would give us a mid-frame, adjustable sighted convertible .40 to 10mm? Forget the .38-40. Both the .40 and 10mm could be loaded hot in this cylinder size. Lipsey's would have to make sure Ruger gave us correct cylinder throat sizes, though, because Ruger left to their own devices would screw them up, as usual.

[Tatume]

I've wondered about the utility of a 38 Magnum. It would fit exactly between the 357 Magnum and the 41 Magnum, with a groove diameter of 0.38" and a standard 1.29" case. Of course, it wouldn't chamber in 38 Special revolvers because it would be too fat, and it wouldn't chamber in 38 S&W revolvers because it would be too long. The question that remains is (to quote Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong, as performed by Edwin Starr): "Unh! What is it good for?" I haven't answered that one yet.

Take care, Tom

[Moonie]

I remember the 45 ACP neck down cartridges 357 Bobcat and 41 Avenger. Both were neat ideas but limited to the pressure range of the ACP brass. 25 years ago, Dean Grennel started trimming down 45 win mag brass for his 45 Super cartridge. He also used the mag brass for the Bobcat and Avenger rounds which of course improved their performance. A simple barrel and spring change and the 1911 became a different animal.

I love my 400 Cor-Bon barrel in my 1911. 6" and with weights up to 180 keeps up with 10mm. Brass is made from 45+P brass by Starline although I do have some small primer 45acp I've reformed for lighter loads in it.

[338RemUltraMag]

I would love to see a rimmed 10 mm for revolvers. Put that in a medium frame single action and it would be about perfect for what I need in a revolver (not a big game hunter). I would probably load mine down a bit. Many, many times I have considered having a properly made .41 Long Colt with .386 cylinder throats and a barrel with a .385 groove diameter commissioned. But it never makes enough sense to actually do it and the Starline brass is about 3 times normal price.

My good friend had a .40 S&W custom medium frame Blackhawk made. That is very close and offers all that cheap once fired brass from those bottom feeders. But revolvers were made for rimmed cases, so a 10 mm rimmed would be even better.

The auto boys got their medium calibers. We revolver shooters need something like that that is more efficient and less powerful than the .41 Magnum.

You could easily make 400 Corbon from 45 auto rim and then chamber that in a revolver. That is about as perfect of a rimmed 10 Auto I can think of!

[WallyM3]

79914There's a .41 Special.

[pdawg_shooter]

I had a 6" Python re-bored and re-chambered for the 41 Special. Made a great utility gun. No sharp, ear splitting blast, light enough to carry all day and powerful enough for anything out here in the Dodge City area.

[WallyM3]

I'd really like to do it to a SAA.

[Tatume]

I had a 6" Python re-bored and re-chambered for the 41 Special. Made a great utility gun. No sharp, ear splitting blast, light enough to carry all day and powerful enough for anything out here in the Dodge City area.

Who did the work for you? What speeds are you getting with what bullet weights? Sounds like a very nice gun.

[pdawg_shooter]

Who did the work for you? What speeds are you getting with what bullet weights? Sounds like a very nice gun.

When I picked the gun up the smith made me promise not to tell anyone his name. He is/was afraid someone will try to load to 41mag levels. I load a 200gr cast to just over 1000fps. Brass is cut down Rem. 41mag brass. A pleasant and fun gun to shoot, and I am one of those weirdos who love the Pythons action.

[rr2241tx]

Forget the .38-40.

And why is that? It sounds like exactly what you are after: a 40 caliber mid-level revolver cartridge. The thin case walls allow it to seal efficiently at low pressure and you can shoot low velocity plain based lead bullets all the way up to 10mm jacketed. Easy conversion for a Ruger Blackhawk to get the adjustable sights and coil spring action in a strong frame.

[dondiego]

.401 Herter's PowerMag. A friend of mine has one and it is about like a .41 Spl. Made in Germany in the 60's for the then mighty Herter's mail order house out of Waseca Minnesota.

[Piedmont]

And why is that? It sounds like exactly what you are after: a 40 caliber mid-level revolver cartridge. The thin case walls allow it to seal efficiently at low pressure and you can shoot low velocity plain based lead bullets all the way up to 10mm jacketed. Easy conversion for a Ruger Blackhawk to get the adjustable sights and coil spring action in a strong frame.
My statement "forget the .38-40" was in the context of small edition convertibles Ruger has offered in the past--the Buckeye 10mm/.38-40 Blackhawk, and the much later large frame Vaquerro that was .40 S&W/.38-40 if I am remembering correctly. What I am wanting in the proposed limited edition convertible is a .40 S&W / 10mm.

But the .38-40 has a larger case capacity than a .40 Magnum which I already said I didn't want. A standard 10mm with a rim is substantially shorter and has no bottle neck. Also, my ideal single action is on the medium frame, not the large. A .38-40 on the medium shouldn't be loaded much hotter than the factory load since the cylinder walls will be thin. The .38-40 on a large frame and loaded hot is basically a bottle neck magnum. That huge case capacity and thin cylinder walls is not what I want with smokeless. Nor do I want to lube cases if I don't have to.

[Piedmont]

.401 Herter's PowerMag. A friend of mine has one and it is about like a .41 Spl. Made in Germany in the 60's for the then mighty Herter's mail order house out of Waseca Minnesota.

No it isn't. It is magnum length and a few thousandths smaller in diameter. The .41 Spl. is Special length.

[dondiego]

It is .401 in diameter- 10 mm. It is a little shorter than a .41 mag but does not work at nearly the pressure.

[Piedmont]

It is .401 in diameter- 10 mm. It is a little shorter than a .41 mag but does not work at nearly the pressure.

It is not shorter and it works at full magnum pressure. Here is a link for you.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell401PowerMag.htm

[ku4hx]

.41 Action Express: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express

[dondiego]

Piedmont - Thanks for confirming what I stated. The .401 case is shorter than a .41 mag and is loaded to lower pressures than a .41 mag. I have made many of the cases from .41 mag brass. What does magnum mean?

[brstevns]

I always was a fan of the 257 Improved or 257 Ackley as some call it. Now we have the 25/06. Still the 257 Improved had a much better bore capacity for a 25 cal rifle round. It was also nice to be able to fire 257 roberts in it if the need be.

[fcvan]

Piedmont, I have one of those Vaqueros in 38-40/40 S&W and love it. I am thinking of getting a cylinder for 10mm just because but I certainly don't want to ream the 40 chamber. I shoot 41 through a S&W M57 and a Marlin 1894 and really don't need a 10mm but whoever said this hobby was about need :)

[Piedmont]

Piedmont, I have one of those Vaqueros in 38-40/40 S&W and love it. I am thinking of getting a cylinder for 10mm just because but I certainly don't want to ream the 40 chamber. I shoot 41 through a S&W M57 and a Marlin 1894 and really don't need a 10mm but whoever said this hobby was about need :)

Lucky you. I wish I had one. Anytime it is a custom job, like getting a .40 made from gunsmith, we at least double the cost.

I have a .41 mag also and tell myself the smart thing to do if I want less case capacity is just buy a wadcutter or other very short nose bullet mold design. But I still want a short case .40 with a rim. No it doesn't make sense. Sometimes you just get an itch you have got to scratch.

[Piedmont]

Piedmont - Thanks for confirming what I stated. The .401 case is shorter than a .41 mag and is loaded to lower pressures than a .41 mag. I have made many of the cases from .41 mag brass. What does magnum mean?

Gee dondiego, I don't quite know how to respond. From the Fryxell article: "The cartridge was a .40 caliber magnum housed in a 1.275" case, loaded to magnum level ballistics." The Starline brass website lists .41 magnum cases at 1.275-1.285".

"What does magnum mean?" Uhmmmm......large capacity at high pressures? Is this a game?

You have a real nice day!

[rintinglen]

I would like a 300 Savage with a longer neck that would be more cast friendly and allow easy rechambering on M-99 Savages. You could then run .308 brass into the die to set the shoulder back a smidge, and be in like Flynn.

[10x]

Another vote for the 35 caliber based on the 30-30 case.
I do have a 35 Remington but the 35-30 would make a great caliber for single shot rifles.

I hear a rumour Remington is restricting production of the 35 remington round. I have found only one box of Hornady in 35 Rem, one box of Winchester, and a couple of boxes of Federal....
Any truth to this rumour.

Too bad the 303 Savage has gone to limited production on ammo as well...

[376Steyr]

I would like a 300 Savage with a longer neck that would be more cast friendly and allow easy rechambering on M-99 Savages. You could then run .308 brass into the die to set the shoulder back a smidge, and be in like Flynn.

Take a look at the 30 TC. It sure looks like a long-necked 300 Savage.

[Tatume]

Take a look at the 30 TC. It sure looks like a long-necked 300 Savage.

According to SAAMI cartridge drawings, the neck on the 30 T/C is 0.298" long. By comparison, the 308 Winchester has a neck 0.303" long. The 30-30 on the other hand, has a 0.477" neck, and the 30-06 neck is 0.385" long. The 30-40 Krag has a nice neck, at 0.485". The 30 T/C neck is longer than the 0.221" neck of the 300 Savage, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "long."

[jonp]

22 wcf parent case for hornet

Of course you are right. I had it in my head for some reason that the 22 wcf was just renamed 22 hornet to market it better. I finally sat down after your comment and looked it up. Much different cases.
I still remember hunting deer with a hornet when I was a kid. Marginal at best with the bullets available 40 yrs ago but what did I know

[10mmShooter]

The 10mm Magnum of course.... I think Javelina made a long slide version of it never really caught on.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Whatever happened to the .256 Winchester magnum?

[Kansas Ed]

I was always enamored by the thought of a .25 Hornet in a good strong revolver. I think because of the minimal body taper it would have been a much better choice than the .22 Hornet in that experiment. I do know of one company who experimented with it in the late 90's, but lost interest in the project, and it got shelved.

As for a rifle cartridge, I think the old 25-20SS has the case capacity to outperform the .25 Hornet by a wide enough margin to make it the better choice, especially with slugs approaching 100 grains. I know my 25.20SS runs a 96gr 257464 bullet at 1990 fps average over the chrony....and shoots it very accurately.

Ed

[mikeym1a]

The hardest part is that the cartridges that *Really* were successful were successful for good reason.....

For example.... The 30-30's large body taper makes for very very easy loading and extraction... which is nice when you want a fast loading and extra-sure extraction in a rifle where you don't have a ton of leverage.... The long neck allows for longer cast bullets without risking exposed grease grooves that pick up grit and trash......

The biggest ones that I really wish we saw become more popular were the numerous lower power, lower velocity rifle cartridges... The larger family of Hornets, wasps, donaldsons, and others like this.... I really feel like those of us "Back East" who hunt mostly on smaller woodlots, small (Less than 10 acre) "farms", and in brushy back yards lost out to the Out West "Varminters" who really did need to make 400+ yard shots.. but didn't have any neighbors to complain about the noise.... We don't really have many small, compact, quiet rifle cartridges that are good for a 50 yard shot on a Woodchuck, but don't scare/alarm the neighbors when they light it off (Who then call the police)....

Thanks
At one time, Hopkins & Allen made a falling block .22 rifle with an integral silencer, so that you could practice your marksmanship without disturbing your neighbors! It was called the 'Noiseless' and came with a 6" screw on silencer. Too bad our government doesn't trust us like it once did. And, vice versa.

[mikeym1a]

According to Wiki, The .22 Hornet was the child of the .22 WCF. The two cases are practically identical, although the bore sizes were slightly different.

[MT Chambers]

I'd like the .45/70 necked down to .416", with a shoulder, not the tapered case of the 40/65. This could be loaded hot in the Marlin levers and even hotter in the Ruger #1.

[Cosmiceyes]

I wish there was a 358 Winchester factory chambered Marlin levergun that would shoot full power loads (52,000 CUP).

What's wrong with a Browning? One of our associates has one for sale.

[Cosmiceyes]

A .308 inch and a half. I would love one in the new Ruger that they use the 7.62x39 in. Go American! :)'s

[mikeym1a]

Piedmont - Thanks for confirming what I stated. The .401 case is shorter than a .41 mag and is loaded to lower pressures than a .41 mag. I have made many of the cases from .41 mag brass. What does magnum mean?

Again, from Wiki, Magnum (from Latin: magnum, neuter (nominative singular) of magnus neutral form, meaning great. It was simply a term adopted to signify a case with greater case capacity. Greater case capacity usually equates greater muzzle velocity. So, it's what you want it to mean. :razz:

[WallyM3]

The British coined the term "Magnum", evoking the large champagne bottle.

[pmer]

I'd like the .45/70 necked down to .416", with a shoulder, not the tapered case of the 40/65. This could be loaded hot in the Marlin levers and even hotter in the Ruger #1.

I wonder if this would fit towards something in the Jd Jones line of cartridges. A .416/70 govt is thought provoking.

I wonder if a 9mm rimmed would be getting too close to a .357. I priced dies for 35-30 once and almost dropped the phone.

I've thought once or twice about a 45 Winchester mag on moon clips. You could crimp like crazy and head space like it's a 45 acp.

[dsol]

My dad always wanted to get an extra cylinder for his .30 Carbine Blackhawk and make a bottleneck cartridge out of a 44 Magnum chambering. I dont know if it has ever been done before, he never did go through with it, but for some reason it has stuck in my memory even 10 years after he died.

[Piedmont]

I'd like the .45/70 necked down to .416", with a shoulder, not the tapered case of the 40/65. This could be loaded hot in the Marlin levers and even hotter in the Ruger #1.
This was written up in Handloader around 15 years ago. Called the .416 Barnes and the write-up was by Barnes. He put one in a Marlin and I think one in a single shot because in that one he loaded the bullets much longer. It looked like a good idea.

[Bigslug]

I've been tempted to take the 6.5x57 to an Ackley version, but not tempted enough.

[Stephen Cohen]

Yes it was a good round, When I was in Darwin cleaning up after cyclone Tracy I got a 22mag my friend got 5mm, within 3 mths he could get no ammo.

[Janoosh]

Yes Kansas Ed, why did the 25/20 ss fall from favor? I have one also, a Stevens tip-up. That cartridge, along with the 25 hornet are just about perfect for Boolits. I'm not thinking long range, not really more than 100-150 or less.

[Whitespider]

All voids have been filled many years ago

Not quite... there's one still sitting open.
A re-loadable, high-performance, .22 center-fire that will fit in a rim-fire size revolver frame such as the Single-Six. Maybe a necked .32 S&W Long, or even better a necked .32 H&R. Done right... with a steep, sharp shoulder to eliminate set-back issues, 1500 FPS from a 5-6 inch barrel should be no problem with 40-45 grain Boolits. I drew up a plans for such a cartridge based on the H&R round some years ago... and never followed through. Maybe some day...

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I wish the .218 Bee was more popular. It is a much better cartridge than the Hornet. I had a neat little cadet rifle chambered for the Bee and it was a delight to load for and to shoot, the cases last three forevers and can be formed from the 25-20 or the 32-20. I have never owned a Hornet but in talking to men who have they say they only get four or five reloadings and sometimes only three.

[Mk42gunner]

Yes, Eimer and Boser did the same thing and I have considered putting one of them together. How cool would it be to have a revolver with something like .401 Eimer stamped on it? Only real gunnies would have a clue what it was. When I looked more deeply into it I found the case was magnum length. One can run a .41 mag case through a 10mm die and basically get that. Either a special chamber to allow for what can't be resized just above the rim, or turning the cases at the base would have to be done. What turned me against it was it would just be a .40 magnum. I want a .40 Special, or .40 Schofield, or .40 Russian if I may use those terms.
And I know various smiths did .41 Specials, but I am passionate in my hate for trimming cases.

So if I can have anything I want a rimmed 10mm. I've got to say that .40 S&W mid-frame Ruger SA my buddy has is about as sweet as guns get. Only my no-new-calibers rule is holding me back, but the flesh is weak!

Wouldn't it be nice if Lipsey's or someone would give us a mid-frame, adjustable sighted convertible .40 to 10mm? Forget the .38-40. Both the .40 and 10mm could be loaded hot in this cylinder size. Lipsey's would have to make sure Ruger gave us correct cylinder throat sizes, though, because Ruger left to their own devices would screw them up, as usual.

As I remember when the 10mm and Centaur cartridges were being developed, they used .30 Remington cases trimmed considerably. Since they were designing cases for bottom feeders, they did not need or want a rim. For a revolver cartridge, a rim is a big plus; especially for a double action with simultaneous ejection.

I think the .30-30 case could be cut to length and the rim narrowed so it would work. The outside dimensions are close enough, but you might need to inside ream the brass; I don't know, I don't remember sectioning a .30-30 case to check the thickness.

It should be a simple operation to face the rear of the cylinder for rim clearance. 10mm/.40 S&W dies would work fine.

I think this would be a great cartridge for the S&W Model 610's and the few .40 S&W revolvers, as well as single actions.

What do you think?

Robert

[376Steyr]

I was always enamored by the thought of a .25 Hornet in a good strong revolver. I think because of the minimal body taper it would have been a much better choice than the .22 Hornet in that experiment. I do know of one company who experimented with it in the late 90's, but lost interest in the project, and it got shelved.

Ed

Years ago I saw a magazine article about a .25 Hornet made from a S&W K-22. I don't recall how the rimfire to centerfire conversion was done (rebored barrel and cylinder onto a CF frame maybe?) but it looked nifty.

[truckjohn]

A re-loadable, high-performance, .22 center-fire that will fit in a rim-fire size revolver frame such as the Single-Six.

Uh... Like the 5.7fn? I bet it would fit into a single six without any issue...

Only thing I can think about is that it headspaces on the shoulder.....
Don't see too many of those in a revolver....

Machine up some custom moon clips and you are good to go...

Thanks

[Piedmont]

As I remember when the 10mm and Centaur cartridges were being developed, they used .30 Remington cases trimmed considerably. Since they were designing cases for bottom feeders, they did not need or want a rim. For a revolver cartridge, a rim is a big plus; especially for a double action with simultaneous ejection.

I think the .30-30 case could be cut to length and the rim narrowed so it would work. The outside dimensions are close enough, but you might need to inside ream the brass; I don't know, I don't remember sectioning a .30-30 case to check the thickness.

It should be a simple operation to face the rear of the cylinder for rim clearance. 10mm/.40 S&W dies would work fine.

I think this would be a great cartridge for the S&W Model 610's and the few .40 S&W revolvers, as well as single actions.

What do you think?

Robert

Robert, I got out my caliper, found a loaded .40 S&W round and a reloaded .30-30. They were within .005" just above the rim so I am sure what you propose would work. I'm sure reaming would be required, but if you wanted one badly enough this is a way to do it.

Many years ago I got the Sixgunner publication of Handgun Hunter's International (subscribed for over 10 years). There was a write-up by Dale Kelling (something like that, it has been many years since I saw it) on a .375 Magnum that he chambered a revolver in, doing what you suggest with the .30-30 case and making the case the same length as other magnum cases. He had someone make a bullet mold for him and of course it worked fine. I'm sure what you propose off the same case would work too, since that is a tapered case and the base diameter is good. An expander could open up the mouth a bit and fireforming could take care of the rest.

I just measured the .30-30 rim diameter and it is about .020 smaller than a .44 Mag/spl. rim. So I don't think these would need modification to work in an N frame or Ruger SA, unless I misunderstand and you think the .30-30 rim is thicker than the standard .060" of most revolver cartridges.

I think it would work, but making cases would be tedious.

My biggest gripe on the .41 Spl. is I don't want to have to trim magnums down. Sizing .41 magnums to .40 works, too. A friend and I did this 4-5 years ago while bouncing the .40 revolver idea around.

[WallyM3]

"My biggest gripe on the .41 Spl. is I don't want to have to trim magnums down."

An outfit by the name of "Quality Cartridge" banged out some .41 Special cases a few years ago. I got a couple of boxes as a "look/see" proposition. There were a few unusable cases. I hope by now they've tweaked the process enough that the through put has improved.

Normally, I whittle up a 5C collet to hold the longer parent cases for trimming, lock the saddle and lop off the excess brass with a micro cutoff blade. Not all that tedious, really.

But I get what you mean.

[Mk42gunner]

Robert, I got out my caliper, found a loaded .40 S&W round and a reloaded .30-30. They were within .005" just above the rim so I am sure what you propose would work. I'm sure reaming would be required, but if you wanted one badly enough this is a way to do it.

Many years ago I got the Sixgunner publication of Handgun Hunter's International (subscribed for over 10 years). There was a write-up by Dale Kelling (something like that, it has been many years since I saw it) on a .375 Magnum that he chambered a revolver in, doing what you suggest with the .30-30 case and making the case the same length as other magnum cases. He had someone make a bullet mold for him and of course it worked fine. I'm sure what you propose off the same case would work too, since that is a tapered case and the base diameter is good. An expander could open up the mouth a bit and fireforming could take care of the rest.

I just measured the .30-30 rim diameter and it is about .020 smaller than a .44 Mag/spl. rim. So I don't think these would need modification to work in an N frame or Ruger SA, unless I misunderstand and you think the .30-30 rim is thicker than the standard .060" of most revolver cartridges.

I think it would work, but making cases would be tedious.

My biggest gripe on the .41 Spl. is I don't want to have to trim magnums down. Sizing .41 magnums to .40 works, too. A friend and I did this 4-5 years ago while bouncing the .40 revolver idea around.

I wasn't thinking about rim thickness, since the reamer would be made for the nominal thickness of the case. I was thinking somehow that the diameter was a lot bigger than the .44 or .45 cases. I thought narrow it to the diameter of a .41 Magnum.

After looking at a dimensioned drawing of a few cases, the .30-30 case would be fine for most single actions and the S&W N frame, it might need to be smaller for the very few .40 S&W L frame and smaller guns out there, who knows?

I think it, or they, would be neat revolver cartridges; but I share your loathing for brass trimming. Until a suitable revolver comes along dirt cheap, I am not messing with it.

Robert

[mikeym1a]

Not quite... there's one still sitting open.
A re-loadable, high-performance, .22 center-fire that will fit in a rim-fire size revolver frame such as the Single-Six. Maybe a necked .32 S&W Long, or even better a necked .32 H&R. Done right... with a steep, sharp shoulder to eliminate set-back issues, 1500 FPS from a 5-6 inch barrel should be no problem with 40-45 grain Boolits. I drew up a plans for such a cartridge based on the H&R round some years ago... and never followed through. Maybe some day...

not a .22 but there is the .25NAA, if you can find any, and if you needed more frontal area, the .32NAA...........:smile:

[303Guy]

I have never owned a Hornet but in talking to men who have they say they only get four or five reloadings and sometimes only three.Really? I get indefinite case life shooting 55gr bullets at 2700 fps. Well, I did lose a few in the long grass. I don't even need to trim them.

Anyway, I'd like a longer necked 303 Brit. Other like to see cartridges; 35-303, 375-303, 40-303 or 41-303. I'd also like to see the 25-303 come back into popularity. That's a great caliber for for the Lee Enfield and for single shot rifles. The 22-303 is little more than a rimmed 220 Swift (loaded to lower pressure).

[Tatume]

Other like to see cartridges; 35-303, 375-303, ...

The 375-303 is very popular in Australia, and to a lesser degree it is also well regarded in Canada. It is a very easy wildcat to work with, provided you start with a rifle made for the 303 British. The Lee-Enfield in particular is good for this cartridge because it feeds the rimmed cartridges well. Parker Hale made rifles chambered for 303 British, and of course many of the single-shot Martini rifles were converted from 450/577. Naturally, a large single shot action will accept a rimmed cartridge, and Farquharson chambered quite a few falling block rifles for 303 British. The repeaters will feed the rimmed cartridge, and the single shots will extract them, so all that is necessary is to fit and chamber a 375-bore barrel. And if you think I share your interest in the 303-375, you are absolutely correct.

Take care, Tom

[303Guy]

Thanks Tatume. I knew it existed but thought was a rare wildcat. I know it was build in NZ as the 38-303. So it does feed reliably from the Lee Enfield with full 10 round capacity?

I already have a 25-303 of course and it's a favourite. It can equal the 243 in velocity for equal bullet weights.

[Tatume]

I don't own one, so can't say with authority that it will carry 10 cartridges in the magazine, but I cannot imagine that it wouldn't. After all, the cartridge case appears to be the limiting diameter.

Most conversions are made by reboring the original barrel, and I'm sure JES would do it for a very reasonable price.

http://35caliber.com/

Take care, Tom

[rockrat]

How about a 25/6.5mm/7mm on the 357 super mag case

[John Boy]

I believe that the Hornet was made from the old .25-20Correct, I'm in the process of reforming some now from 25-20's. Other than forming they only need to be trimmed

[Chev. William]

The biggest ones that I really wish we saw become more popular were the numerous lower power, lower velocity rifle cartridges... The larger family of Hornets, wasps, donaldsons, and others like this.... I really feel like those of us "Back East" who hunt mostly on smaller woodlots, small (Less than 10 acre) "farms", and in brushy back yards lost out to the Out West "Varminters" who really did need to make 400+ yard shots.. but didn't have any neighbors to complain about the noise.... We don't really have many small, compact, quiet rifle cartridges that are good for a 50 yard shot on a Woodchuck, but don't scare/alarm the neighbors when they light it off (Who then call the police)....

Thanks

"TruckJohn",
How about a Center fire version of the .25 Stevens RF? As a RF it was originally loaded with about a 65 gr inside lubbed Lead Bullet and enough BP to give about 1000fps to 1100fps. out of a 21.75 inch Stevens Favorite barrel, or longer, it was considered a Very Good 'pot meat' caliber and reportedly very accurate out out 200 yards although with a 'high trajectory'.
Modern powders and light charges would give the same Muzzle Velocity, which is subsonic, and a quiet Blast from the Muzzle Exit Pressure. Several people have either converted to CF with custom cases or use adapter cases with Rf 'blanks', with or without extra powder, to use in current Pest, Varmint, and Squirrel hunting. The .25 Reportedly kills quickly and does not damage as much meat as a .22 Long Rifle cartridge.
Also, the .25ACP current factory loadings, to 17,400psi, would be about the same length and diameters as the .25 Stevens short RF cartridge and would yield 1000fps to 1100fps out of the same Stevens barrel length. the longer Barrel also would quiet the 'Muzzle Blast' of this round and it IS semi rimmed so would chamber properly.

Might be something to consider for the Eastern Shooters,
Chev. William

[Green Frog]

The cartridge I'm currently stumping for is being produced now, but the industry seems to be trying to let it die by just sending out teaser numbers of guns and ammo for it... the 327 Federal Magnum. Although born about 25 years too late, this round could have and should have been a World Beater. Does anyone remember seeing a big rollout from anyone in the industry? How long did any of the gun makers offer factory guns for it and how many times did you see the ammo available for sale in your LGS? This was/is a legitimate factory round with factory firearms built (albeit in limited numbers for a short time) for it, yet it seems to be dying from neglect. Talk about a potentially great cartridge that almost was...

Froggie

[KCSO]

22 Hornet was a 32-20 necked down IIRR but there isn't much difference between the 25-20 and the 32-20 for all practical purpose. But I think someone did a 25-hornet at one time back in the 30's. I thnk you would have to go a long ways down the road to find a ctg that somebody didn't make up first.

[pdawg_shooter]

The 32 mag and 327 mag are dieing out from lack of interest. There is nothing either one will do that a .357 wont do better and cheaper. Ammo is available most anywhere and you have a way better selection of firearms to shoot it in.

[pdawg_shooter]

The 32 mag and 327 mag are dieing out from lack of interest. There is nothing either one will do that a .357 wont do better and cheaper. Ammo is available most anywhere and you have a way better selection of firearms to shoot it in. The 32/327 are an answer looking for a question.

[Whitespider]

Uh... Like the 5.7fn? I bet it would fit into a single six without any issue...
Only thing I can think about is that it headspaces on the shoulder.....
Don't see too many of those in a revolver....
Machine up some custom moon clips and you are good to go...

Yeah, maybe it could be made to work, but far from what I was thinkin'... which was simply reaming the .22 cylinder. The Single-Six cylinder length is about 1.38 inches, and cartridge dimensions for the 5.7 allow for a maximum of 1.594... making it about 0.21 longer than the cylinder. Also, the 5.7 case length is 1.135, only leaving 0.245 for the protruding bullet... whereas the .32 Mag case is 1.075, leaving 0.305 for the bullet. The 5.7 doesn't really "fit" but a cartridge based on the .32 would be totally new, the case length could be shortened during design and development… as well as shoulder angle. Yeah, I suppose you could base the “new” cartridge on the 5.7, but then it wouldn’t be the 5.7… but why would you? A rimless case is a poor choice for a revolver cartridge.

I was responding to detox when he posted, “All voids have been filled many years ago.”

I came back with, “Not quite... there's one still sitting open. A re-loadable, high-performance, .22 center-fire that will fit in a rim-fire size revolver frame such as the Single-Six.” I stand by my statement. The 5.7 does not fill that void… as it is, it just don’t “fit”.

[onehousecat]

Well for my own reasons , 9mm Win mag, and the Auto-mag clan .

I guess that makes two of us. If I can ever find a 10mm Win Mag, I will have all of the commercially produced AMs.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

The 22Hornet was based on the black powder round called the 22WCF. The 218 Bee was made by necking down the Winchester 25-20 which itself was made by necking down the 32-20. The Hornet is a much smaller case than the other three. I am attaching pictures to show the difference. The base of the Hornet case never seemed large enought to me to support a primer.

[Janoosh]

IMHO, the 327 mag is a viable cartridge. It would be great in a small, dropping block, walk around gun. And, as in any other cartridge, with the quality of modern custom molds and makers, the cartridge would excell with the right boolit. A heavy or light boolit for the job needed, as in a 357. This cartridge is very doable in a lever gun! I'm thinking something light, like a rossi 92, trapper model.

[Wayne Smith]

IMHO, the 327 mag is a viable cartridge. It would be great in a small, dropping block, walk around gun. And, as in any other cartridge, with the quality of modern custom molds and makers, the cartridge would excell with the right boolit. A heavy or light boolit for the job needed, as in a 357. This cartridge is very doable in a lever gun! I'm thinking something light, like a rossi 92, trapper model.

Isn't that just reproducing the 32-20?

[dondiego]

Isn't that just reproducing the 32-20?

Kind of, but with a better case. Similar to the .30 carbine too.

[Scharfschuetze]

Since this seems to be a wish list as much as anything, I'll throw in my two cents too.

I'd also like the 327 Federal Magnum pistol round in a Smith & Wesson K frame revolver with a six inch barrel sans the underlug that is so popular now. Kind of like a retro K-32, but made with steel that is up to the higher pressures. Add to that a Model 92 Winchester or Marlin 94 in the calibre (if the cartridge isn't too long) and you'd have the perfect walk about guns for vermin and coyotes. Plinking loads would be cheap enough with components per round using about a third less powder and lead than the grand old 357 Magnum. Hunting loads should shoot pretty flat and be perfect for those days out on the sage brush or in the canyon country of the West.

While I have 32/20s that do about the same thing, case life isn't all that great (even just neck sizing) and I'd like the convenience of using a carbide sizing die on the straight 327 Federal case. Reloading would be a snap with it just like it's bigger brethren like the 357, 41 and 44.

[BAGTIC]

Hornet was derived from the .22 Winchester Center Fire (WCF).

[BAGTIC]

I think a .270 REN or similar cartridge based on an expanded Hornet case would make a fine small caliber small game cartridge for a high capacity revolver.

[JakeBlanton]

With respect to the desire for a .40 in a revolver, why not just just use snap rings on the .40SW or 10mm auto cartridges? Wouldn't that be kind of like using moon clips, but for a single round? For a defensive pistol, I would think that either half or full moon clips would be preferable to the speed loaders.

[LeftyDon]

There are many cartridges out there. What are the ones that you wish were tweaked ever so slightly to end up with something you think would result in a much better round...or fill a void.

For example 30-30 without the taper and a more squared shoulder. for increased capacity. and operating at a bit higher pressure would be great.

30 Remington - almost made it into the 21st century before even Remington stopped supporting it.

[Freischütz]

348 Improved

[HangFireW8]

I'd really love a Factory .30x57mm or .308x57mm or 7.62x57mm if you will, with PSI standardized at a 308Win level MAP. It would have close to 8mm Mauser case dimensions except for the caliber. I've heard it exists as a wildcat, someone once mentioned a "30 Special" but I've never found any documentation for it.

Yes, I know about the 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentine Mauser, but that is a .31, a shorter case and lower standardized pressure, and yeah I know it wouldn't do anything you couldn't handload with a 7 or 8 Mauser or an '06 or a 308Win for that matter.

What it would do fabulously well is make use of existing Mauser receivers without altering magazines and feed ramps, and utilitize the huge resource of 30 caliber bullets and boolits. Cases would be a quick resize and trim down from '06, but this is my fantasy, so they would be widely available as factory cases, correctly marked.

HF

[45-70 Chevroner]

The original post mentioned a 30-30 with a sharp shoulder. I think Akley did that. He did it with a lot of standard cartridges. Look for a set of Akley dies and just fire form the 30-30 cases.

[RPRNY]

35-30/30!!! And 6.5 30-40.

[W.R.Buchanan]

.218 Bee is from the .25-20 case.

Randy

[rockrat]

Forgot, how about a 7mm on the 338 Marlin Express case?

[Hawkeye45]

I could not pass this up.
81335
A Belted 45 ACP
:bigsmyl2:

Mr. Ed