OK, who has heard of a ladder test???

[waco]

Saw this on another forum (Sniper's Hide)
I've been reloading for 14 years, and this is new to me.
Any of you fellas heard of this? They are claiming the best way to work up an accurate rifle load.
Sounds kinda odd to me, but.....
Waco

[725]

As I understand the term, it's just shooting loads in gradual increases of powder. Tells you how it all goes together over a spectrum of loads. Somewhere in there is the optimum accuracy load.

[Dale in Louisiana]

It's a way to work up a load with a powder. Basically you load a few rounds, for instance, starting at thirty grains, then go up in half-grain steps. Shoot each load for groups. Pick your best.

Remember, the key is to eliminate ALL the variables except the powder charge weight.

dale in Louisiana

[huntrick64]

I use a similar term "load ladder" which I would describe like they did above. Basically, load from the bottom to the top of the range specified in your load manuals. You would do something like 5 or 10 rounds for each level maybe 2/10 grain apart or even 1/2 grain apart depending on powder volume. Shoot at different targets from the same distance with the various levels of powder and record the changes. I am sure you have been doing it all along, just calling it something different.

[frankenfab]

As I understand it, only one or two loads are shot at each powder charge. You look for clusters in the vertical string (ladder) and the focus on group shooting thereafter within the charge range of the cluster or clusters (accuracy "nodes") to narrow things down.

[tomme boy]

To do it right, you have to do it at 200 yds at least. 300 yds is better. Myself, I would not waste my time with cast. way too many things to go wrong.

[country gent]

Many years ago Crieghton Audette (sp) worked up a loading method to find the sweet spot in a barrels harmonics with a given bullet powder and primer combination. Basically you load 1 round at starting load and depending on cartridge capacity 1 round every .2 grn of a given powder to maximum. You then shoot this series at 200 yds, 300 is better. You chart each round on the line. What your looking for is a spot with acceptable velocity and 3-4 rounds grouped together. At this point test groups at the mid points of the clusters. IE if 30.2 30.4 and 30.6 grns cluster test at 30.4. My wife and I did this for several rifles we used for High power service rifle matches and the resulting load shot very good in every rifle we tried it in. It works but seeing and charting the shots from the firing line is important and can be tricky to do. WHat you end up with is a line of shots up the target with small 2-4 shot clusters where the load is causing the bullet to leave the barrel during a dead node in the barrels harmonics. Pope used a like method also to work up loads. It works very well and shooting groups you may never find that load where the bullet is leaving on the dead node. When this is done you have a load that can vary -.3/+.3 grns and still go into the group.

[Love Life]

I use it all the time. It gets me out to 1,000 yds with very minimal work and eats up significantly less components.

You do not shoot a group of rds at each powder charge. You shoot ONE rd at each powder charge.
Ladder testing at 100 yds is pointless for a centerfire (using jacketed).

The Snipers Hide ladder test is the best example floating around the net. There are some very serious shooters on that forum.

[Rick45Colt]

I was taught to use this technique with great success on two rifles so far. I did have some input from my mentor in that he suggested the bullet for my custom 30-06 and a few suggestion of powders that had worked for some of his rifles. My TC Icon 30TC liked a 155 grain ballistic tip and I forget which powder. It might have been TAC. Not that it matters much as that rifle is being re-barreled in 308. My 30-06 seemed to like the 168 gr. MK and RL15. I build 10 rounds in increments of .5 grains starting at the minimum that the Sierra book lists.

I am starting to research a cast boolit for 30 cal. and start the process anew.

Rick

[Win94ae]

I use the Audette Ladder Test method exclusively; I usually find a precision node in less than 6 shots.

[Love Life]

This target shows an initial 300 yd ladder. I worked from 41.5gr to 47.0gr of BLC-2 (DO NOT USE 47 GR OF BLC-2!! I HAD HARD BOLT LIFT).

The bullet hole directly below the orange target was my spotter to make sure I was on target. A couple clicks left and you see the ladder from start to finish. Each shot was a different charge working from 41.5gr to 47 gr. You can see where there are groups or 'nodes' with minimal vertical dispersion.

I took the nodes and worked those in .3 gr increments and shot another ladder at 400 yds.

I had 1 node at 400 yds so I worked that node in .1 gr increments and shot it at 500 yds. By that time I had THE load for my rifle with the bullet jammed.

Using this method I was able to develop a long range sub-MOA load with minimal components.

[Love Life]

I forgot to say that POA was dead center of the orange target. Wind was completely ignored.

[waco]

Interesting.

[country gent]

When I started in High Power rifle ( sevice rifle) with my M1-A I ask around as to loads, all the old timers and master and above told me the same thing fed primer LC match case 41.5 grns IMR 4895 ad sierra 168 match king. All said the same thing when this load dosnt shoot fix the rifle. I have used the Audette ladder method with 22.hornet .1 grn increments, 218 bee .1 grn increments, .223 .2 grn, .243 win .2 grn, 308 .2 grn, 300 win mag .2 grn, 45-70 ( Holy black) 1 grn incremnts then went back and retested at .5 grn marks. All gave really good loads very quickly. I would take rifle and gear, loading equipment with primed cases and components. My wife would load 1 round and bring it to me. I would fire it and plot it while she loaded the next increment. This went very quick. When we found the sweet spot on one rifle I then tested it in all the other rifles in that caliber also. I have never tried it with handgun loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

never used it. To me the biggest part of load developement with a bolt gun is finding the bullet it likes. The ladder test is only going to accomplish one part of the equation. Theres still the bullet, the primer, powder brand and burning rate and seat dept. All are important when working up a load. Using the ladder test after you have narrowed it down to maybe fine tune the powder charge my be benificial but sometimes just varying the powder charge a grain can completely change which bullet, primer ect you gun likes. About the only real use for ladder testing in my book is if you only owned one powder, on brand of primers, and only want to work with one specific bullet. No thanks, give me good old fashion 5 shot groups.

[btroj]

It is a tool but certainly not the only answer.

In my service rifle I just kept using the same 600 yard load each time I got a new barrel. It always seemed to shoot the way I expected so I never saw a reason to develop a load for a new barrel. Good barrels, same smith, same reamer. Makes a difference.

[Love Life]

Lloyd Small- You can use this method with different powders, primers, etc. Find best powder 1st. Then work primer selection, or seating depth, or whatever is your choice. With the 300 yd ladder I learned more from that 12 shots than I would have learned from firing 60 shots (5 shots per charge). Now if i fired 60 shots per powder (5 shots per charge) and had 3 powders to try I would be firing 180 bullets, 180 primers, and taking 180 rds of life out of my barrel.

Shooting the ladder 3 times at different yardages I may shoot only 24 rds total and gain a lot of knowledge. Now if you want to test 3 different powders you would only shoot 1 shot per powder charge that is only 72 rds total fired across 3 powders with a bunch of knowledge gleaned and less life of your barrel eaten up.

As said above, using the ladder you can find a sweet spot where .3 gr variation up or down will still land the bullet in the group.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference. The ladder test is an outstanding tool that works VERY well for me and many others. The usual way (5 shots per charge) is an outstanding tool that works VERY well for others.

At the end of the day you pick your poison.

[grampa243]

this is a very well wrote article about ladder testing.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

[hickfu]

I use a ladder test for all my rifle hand loads. From starting load to max load I find that there will be 2 groups that will be used. 1 plinking group and 1 hunting group. I upload in .3gr increments and it dont take long to find what the rifle likes.

once I find a group that works I pick the charge in the middle of it and may tweek it a little after testing it at longer ranges but I never take a shot past 150 or 200 yards so that is max for me.

Doc

[Larry Gibson]

Read the above article and Audette's original articles carefully and you will see the "ladder method" may work with to find a variation in powder charges that hits to same poi at one known range. That is all the test will tell you if that. If your powder throwing technique throws a wide variation of charges and you shoot at one range only the ladder method may be useful.

As mentioned, at ranges under 300 yards and with cast bullets it is pretty much a waste of time and components. Yes I have tested the ladder method extensively with numerous cartridges and rifles from 100 - 600 yards. I already had the best load for each. The load the ladder test indicated was best never was the same or as good as the load that was worked up the original way.

Since I throw pwder charges more accurately than Audette was doing and I shoot at various unknown ranges I do not use the ladder method for load development. A chronograph provides much more useful information.

Larry Gibson

[waco]

[smilie=1:This is all useful info. I didn't mean to start any arguments, I just have never heard of this before. Every other post on "the hide" mentions this term.
Just wanted to know if any of you fellas had heard of it.

[Anonym]

I've used something similar to develop loads, but I always shoot 3-shot groups. I'm pretty new to reloading as well, so I don't have a massive selection of components to choose from, but what I do have, I want to make sure I maximize in my rifle load development.

I may have 2 different bullet designs and/or weights that I have to load for a .308 (for example), and 3 different powders that have load data for it as well. I'll work up a load for each bullet and powder for my particular rifle by loading 3 exact bullets for a powder charge, and varying the powder charge by a certain increment within the safe loading range of the powder. Then I'll shoot the 3-shot groups at varying targets to determine which 3 shot the smallest group, and then maybe fine tune it from there if I think there's more potential. Then I'll do the same thing with my other powders until I know the potential of each bullet with each powder. Then I log which powder and which load shot best for each bullet and stick with that. If it shoots satisfactory, then I will try to be loyal to the powder/bullet combo. If I'm not overly pleased, I'll try another component when I start to run low.

I haven't gotten into headspace and all the other variables, but I stick with established information and try to squeak out the best of each projectile that I have available.

[Love Life]

Every other post on "the hide" mentions this term.
Just wanted to know if any of you fellas had heard of it.

Every rifle ever bought by a hide member is also sub-moa to 1,000,000 yds out of the box with federal gold medal match...

[Love Life]

Everybody is sorting bullets by weight and base to ogive measurements right? Everybody is weight sorting brass, neck turning, uniforming primer pockets, and annealing right?

[dragon813gt]

Everybody is sorting bullets by weight and base to ogive measurements right? Everybody is weight sorting brass, neck turning, uniforming primer pockets, and annealing right?

No to all of the above and a lot more that can be added :laugh:

I understand the point of the ladder test. But a 100 yard shot is a very long shot in the woods of PA. So the test doesn't do much for me. I should probably use a chronograph to. But I never got around to buying one. I just interpret the velocity I'm looking for from the manuals and pick the load that gets me there. I then fine tune to an acceptable accuracy from there. Minimal component usuage to find a load that works. As stated above. Finding the correct bullet is most of the battle.

[btroj]

Nope. For 600 yard brass I sorted cases for run out. .001 or less for 600, .001 to .003 for 200 and 300, those over .003 for offhand practice.

I never sorted bullets, only weighed charges for 600.

Good dies that make straight ammo made more difference for me than anything else.

Somehow without a ladder test or anything beyond using the same load for years I went dostinguished. My rifle just wasn't smart enough to know better?

In the end a good shot with bad ammo will beat a bad shot with good ammo. The guy behind the gun is usually the weakest link.

[Love Life]

Somehow without a ladder test or anything beyond using the same load for years I went dostinguished. My rifle just wasn't smart enough to know better?



Nobody said your method was wrong or that your rifle was dumb.

This thread is about the ladder test and it's advantages and/or disadvantages.

What works for you...well...works for you. What works for others...well...works for others. That was established on page one of this thread.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

[btroj]

I meant that my rifle wasn't smart enough enough to know a load wasn't worked up specifically for it.

I know a few who used a ladder test to look for powder charge "nodes" where a few tents of a grain difference lead to little elevation variance but none were great shooters.

It is best done on a range with pits so each shot can easily be marked.

Can it give useful info? Ya. But so can many other methods.

Find what works for you and use it. No single right answer.

[Love Life]

I know a few who used a ladder test to look for powder charge "nodes" where a few tents of a grain difference lead to little elevation variance but none were great shooters.



The rifles or the people behind the rifles?

As for pits, yes that is best to have somebody mark each shot. Or your buddy can be hiding behind a big rock a distance away from the target with a sharpie and a radio.

Good times.

[btroj]

The shooters.

I saw too many poor shooters looking the the Holy Grail of ammo thinking it would suddenly increase their scores. They didn't score low due to poor ammo, they scored low because they were poor shots.

I didn't notice my ammo was an issue til I had low 600 scores. My reduced 200 yard scores were fine, at full distance they sucked. I made a simple change, I jumped the bullets .015.

[Love Life]

Mmmmm. Shooting far. During load development I use 500 yds as my preferred range. Sub-moa is a must with 1/2 MOA being the goal.

Our targets are a bit more forgiving at 1,000 yds though. We shoot steel echo targets and it is a hit or miss deal.

[btroj]

That 6 inch X ring at 600 is a tough target. Best I ever do was 10 x put of 20. With irons on an AR I was pretty happy. Ammo doesn't do that, lots of dedicated practice and some natural ability does.

I wasn't a great shooter, just worked hard at it. Some just didn't have what it takes between the ears......

Never shot 1 K, never owned a match rifle. Sure would have liked to do both but life got in the way.

[waco]

Every rifle ever bought by a hide member is also sub-moa to 1,000,000 yds out of the box with federal gold medal match...

lol. yep

[waco]

Everybody is sorting bullets by weight and base to ogive measurements right? Everybody is weight sorting brass, neck turning, uniforming primer pockets, and annealing right?

and lmao again. yep!

[waco]

And by the way, after only two days on that forum, all of my brothers and sisters here at cast boolits are by far the nicest, kindest people on the net.
God bless all of you.
I love this site!

[Love Life]

If you ever get out to Nevada you can shoot mine, or the plethora of others around here.

We shoot tactical (GASP!!) long range. We shoot known and unknown distance. 100% scoped so a lot of cranking on the knobs there. You'd be amazed how many people figure out how to miss at 500 yds using super scopes and all the best stuff out there. Like you said, it is the shooter as much as anything else. It is a weapon system with the shooter being part of the system. Whether it is irons or scopes.

You'd also be surprised at the capabilities of some of the off the shelf guns. The Tikka and the Remington 700 SPS tactical come to mind.

That is damn fine shooting with an AR with iron sights by the way.

[btroj]

Well made upper and a good trigger. John Holliger knows his way around an AR.

I saw some dang fine shots at high power matches. Some were just about stone cold dead laying there prone. Nothing moved but a trigger finger. I was just never good at reading wind.

[country gent]

We use the ladder test when starting out with a new rifle caliber combo. IE when I swithed from M1A to AR 15s. It worked for us (MY wife daughter and myself master, expert, and High Master) I have shot 1000yds with the M1As and 175 grn sierras. I changed barrels when my X count dropped at 600yds. I used the ladder method as it took less time and ammo ( lower barrel wear) than others. I pretty much knew what bullets Id need to be working with, what powder I needed to accomplish my goal, And what primers. A Krieger barrel isnt cheap, having it fitted and timed is another expense.
Shooting competing is more mental then physical if it gives you confidence in the rifle ammo combo it works maybe only in the mind but its working.

[Love Life]

^^Yep.

If fooling with a 308, any 308, I reach for the 175 gr SMK, Tula LRMP, and the BLC-2. Works every time, but I do want to play with the new alliant MR 2000 powder.

I also want to play with the Berger 175 gr tactical OTM bullet. Supposed to be mo' better for going though the sound barrier at distance, ad is designed to be loaded to book OAL to fit in magazines and stuff.

[thomashoward]

I use it now as opposed to just firing half grain increments. get an indication of high node pick a load in the middle of a group.
That's just the beginning.Once you have picked a load then you can start on seating depth, from jam to jump.

[mpmarty]

I have always fired five shot test groups which end up being three shot groups with two flyers.

[ku4hx]

I've always just referred to it as incrementing the charge.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with larry. Few shortcuts work in finding accuracy. Shooting and testing differnt things is what works. I guess to for me that doesnt mean shooting a 1000 rounds and wearing out a barrel. What i look for is a moa load and in a good gun it doesnt take more then 200 rounds to find it and if you havent found it by then your probably not going to. If i find it in 50 rounds i stop. I might go back another year and play with some differnt bullets but ive got enough rifles that for the most part once i find a load that pushes a bullet thats good for the use im going to put the gun to i quit.

[Jim..47]

The ladder test is an excellent test to find accuracy, FOR, that given day and conditions. Will have to be done all over on consecutive days with only minor changes in powder.

I shoot 3 shot groups, and when doing so the thing to look for is when the load gets so hot that the pattern looks like a shotshell being fired. When that happens, the :load blows up:. What this means is that the vertical is all done and now the pattern turns into a pattern like a shotgun sj=hell being fired.

You may get to the final load charge on only 3-4 groups or it may take 10-12. It all depends on where you start your charge at and how much you change the charge each time.

On following days you will have minor changes in weather, humidity etc. These will require that you adjust your load.

Don't believe me? Try it for your self, but you will never win a national contest by staying with the load you used the day before or 2-3-4 days before.

[pipehand]

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Dan Newberrry came up with a variation on the Audette ladder testing. Basically introduces a round robin element so each different charge weight isn't unfairly influenced by barrel condition.

Any of the incremental method are just basically trying to find the "whole note" vibration for the firearm.