Problematic Mould Grrrr!

[Joel Chavez]

I boworred a Lee 6c group buy mould from Centex Bill that won't cast a boolit if my life depended on.:???: I tried it again last night with the same results. This is the third time I've tried out the mould. The boolits looks like a "soup can", but longer. I believe it's a 150gr boolit. I've cleaned it with warm soapy water and allowed to air dry. This is what I've tried so far: 10lbs Lee pot turned to max., turned down just above melting point, turned up to med. heat and nothing will produce a decent boolits. They come out with wrinkles on the nose. The melt is straight ww which is what I use for the "soup can", 7.62x39, 158gr SWC, 230gr RN producing some of the most beautiful boolits I've ever seen. Wait, I just brought a tear to my eyes; sniffle, sniffle. What am I doing wrong here? Why won't this thing cast?:confused: I've been casting for many years and never have I come across such a problematic mould. Any info is greatly appreciated. Later.:castmine:

[Scrounger]

Sounds like the cavities aren't clean. Boil it in soapy water, then re-lube the hinge and other places that need it, smoke the cavities with matches or use dry graphite (No oil). Warm the mold by dipping it into the lead pot for 2 minutes before starting to cast.

[Lloyd Smale]

those lee mold blocks need to be hot too. Not just the lead. I get the best bullets out of lee molds running them right on the verge of smearing

[mooman76]

Crank that pot up to high and leave it. It takes allot to heat up that big mould. Make sure you are preheating it well too. Once you start getting good bullets you can turn it down a little if you think you need to. Have everything ready so you don't have to stall and you will get some going!

[Joel Chavez]

mooman76, I did run the pot at max. for over an hour and preheated the mould in the melt with no luck. An hour later and still no decent boolits. Total time spent, two hours with no, I repeat, no decent boolits. I'm going to wash it again tonight and try one more time tomorrow. If it won't produce a decent boolit, I'll be giving Lee call. Thanks guys. Later.

[MtGun44]

Have you smoked the cavities with wooden matches as Lee
recommends?

Bill

[manleyjt]

As this is a barrowed mould you should talk to the mould owner. They may have some good advice for you if they have cast with the mould. And may also allow you to do necessary things with permission.

Tell us exactly what you are getting for flaws and that may help to give you advice.

But above all remember this is a barrowed mould.

[Joel Chavez]

OK just a recap:
Pot is at max. for about an hour before casting
Spent over an hour trying to cast with pot at max., no luck
Pot at low(just above melting point of lead), no luck
Pot at med., no luck
Mould heated in melt, no luck
Mould cooled, no luck
mould is brand new
owner says to do what ever is neccessary to produce good boolits
cavities are smoked with matches(wood), no luck
cavities cleaned from carbon, no luck
mould washed with warm soapy water(dawn dish washing soap), no luck

Flaws are:
wrinkles on nose and shank of boolit.
boolit won't fill to the top, lead stops below the level of the blocks
Boolit won't fill out no matter what I do.

Just in case you're wondering, I've been casting for several years, but this mould has me stumped! Thanks for the input guys. Later.:castmine:

[Scrounger]

Sure does sound like mold/lead is not hot enough. Making bullets, even bad bullets, will warm the mold. Just start casting and give it a good 15 minutes to see if the bullet quality doesn't improve.

[Calamity Jake]

Vent lines, vents lines, work the vent lines over, from the cavities out, carefully.

Use a hard wet stone and bevel the top of the blocks on the cavity side. Do this very carefully too, keep the bevel real small.

You have cleaned with hot soapy water with no help. Now try some acetone or brake parts cleaner and a tooth brush.

[leftiye]

It's probly that stuff that Lee coats its molds with (preservative?) at the factory. I had a new Lee mold recently that acted like that, took ferever to clean up. I'd start with laquer thinner, maybe brake cleaner before (to cut grease or oils) I used soap. I'd clean after the soap again with Lacquer thinner or something that doesn't leave a residue. One of the special cleaning solutions (I use watch cleaning -clorinated - solution) may be the answer.

You may need to "scrape" off this residue mechanically with a clean bronze brush spun by hand in the cavities (or even steel wool - carefully!).

The mold I have did eventually get so It would cast nice boolits at lower temps (no mold prep - all my molds work better clean). You could also just set it on a hot plate in between casts to get it muy hot and keep it that way. I use a mold heater in my process, so it's easy to heat up a mold or control mold temp and cooling.

Lots of these thangs will go away if you get the mold hot enough to frost real good, and cast for a while, working the temps down until the frosting is light.

[manleyjt]

Ok just so the owner is on board. You can follow the suggestions now. Have you looked up leementing post to get some ideas what to do with the lee aluminum moulds?

[mooman76]

I hate to beat a dead horse but it still sounds like the mould is not getting hot enough. Sounds like the spue plate is cooling off the lead before it gets in the mould especially since you are saying it isn't even filling up the mould to the top. If it isn't filling up to the top then your lead is colling too fast and or the 10# lee pot is just not getting hot enough to get your 6x's going.
I generally pour liberal amounts of lead on the mould when first getting started on the 6x's even after the lead has hardened and won't go into the mould any more to help heat up the mould and spue plate.

[Linstrum]

As Calamity Jake already said:

"Vent lines, vents lines, work the vent lines over, from the cavities out, carefully."

I'll say it, too: VENT LINES! Vent lines, vents lines, work the vent lines over, from the cavities out, carefully. When a mold won't cast despite doing everything to it that you can think of it means that the mold is not properly vented. Long thin skinny boolits and large 500 grain types are real offenders. The other thing beside the vent lines is having a TOO SMALL SPRUE HOLE.

Anymore, I take all my new Lee molds and make my own vent lines with a jeweler's hack saw blade plus drill out the sprue hole big enough. I also take the sprue plate and cut vent lines UNDER it on the bottom side, making an X that intersects the sprue hole. The reason I cut the vent lines on the underside of the sprue plate is because it seems to vent better than if cut them on top of the mold blocks. It leaves a slight raised "X" on the base of the boolit, but those "x boolits" hit the center of the target just fine and don't interfer with gas checks.

I have done a dozen cranky molds that wouldn't cast worth beans, but as far as I know if anyone else ever followed my advice they never told me. I don't have anymore wrinkled up boolits and certainly don't have to turn the melting pot up to red hot to get good boolits now. I have been doing the mold venting thing like Calamity Jake just said for twenty three years now myself and the very first Lee molds I ever bought that I did it to are still dropping really nice boolits after all these years, and still giving me sub minute of angle accuracy in my Fin 91/30 Mosin-Nagant and French 36 MAS.

[dubber123]

Is it possible your pot is crapping out? Try casting with another mould. I had a 10 lb. Lee die after two short casting sessions. If it is giving up the ghost, "Max" on the pot might not be so hot anymore. It really sounds like a way too cold an alloy/mould to me.

[44man]

Sounds like dubber has it right. Vent lines will not cause wrinkles, only a cold alloy or mold. Get a thermometer and see what is going on.

[38-55]

Change your alloy.... I've had this problem before with alloy that was fine the day before and then I couldn't get it to cast anything... I tried adding pure lead, no luck. I fluxed, no luck. Added some tin/solder, no luck. Cleaned mould and did everything you've done. Finally cleaned the pot of all lead. Tried new lot of alloy and everything worked just fine. Don't ask me to explain the 'whys' of it all.
Stay safe
Calvin
PS I added the old alloy to a 100 pot of simmering wheel weight metal and it casted just fine. Some days ya just gotta walk away from the pot and shake your head..

[crowbeaner]

Quick fix; use the dipper and hand pour. The lead isn't slamming the air out of the cavities!

[fatelvis]

Is it possible your pot is crapping out? Try casting with another mould. I had a 10 lb. Lee die after two short casting sessions. If it is giving up the ghost, "Max" on the pot might not be so hot anymore. It really sounds like a way too cold an alloy/mould to me.
I also have a 10lb. Lee pot's thermostat that went bad after a short while. I suggest you get a thermometer and check your alloy temp. I also need to keep my lead hot when using Lee moulds, (about 875*-900*, apposed to 750* for iron moulds) that means #9 on your dial. If your pot isnt putting out maximum heat, you will certainly get the wrinkles. By the way, if your thermostat/rheostat is bad, contact Lee, and they'll ship you a new one, and its a snap to replace!

[dubber123]

I also have a 10lb. Lee pot's thermostat that went bad after a short while. I suggest you get a thermometer and check your alloy temp. I also need to keep my lead hot when using Lee moulds, (about 875*-900*, apposed to 750* for iron moulds) that means #9 on your dial. If your pot isnt putting out maximum heat, you will certainly get the wrinkles. By the way, if your thermostat/rheostat is bad, contact Lee, and they'll ship you a new one, and its a snap to replace!

fatelvis, just throw it against the wall, it fixed mine! I gave it to a friend, and it's still working as far as I know!:drinks:

[Joel Chavez]

Lead is about 875-900 degrees and I'm pouring with a ladle by hand. I can assure you it's not the pot, because I can take a cold "soup can" mould and cast a beautiful bullet. Same goes for my 158gr SWC-HP Lee mould or the 7.62x39 Lee group buy mould. I don't know how to get the mould hotter when it's sitting in the melt for several minutes before I start casting. I do allow the melt to overflow the sprue plate. I'm starting to think it might be coated with some residue of sorts. I'll try cleaners that were suggested tomorrow afternoon. Scrounger, you said 15 minutes, well I tried for nearly an hour and nothing. :( I'll give it another shot tomorrow. Thanks guys for your help. Later.:castmine:

[MtGun44]

I scrub mine with a toothbrush and Comet or Ajax abrasive
cleanser prior to smoking with wooden matches. Never
had a problem.

Sounds like you are doing the right things.

Good luck.

Bill

[454PB]

I don't own any 6 cavity Lee moulds, but I have a lot of their one and two cavity moulds. If the sprue cutter is too tight, it will cause incomplete fillout of the boolit base. The Lee moulds I have were not designed for sprue plate adjustment, but they can be adjusted.

[Onlymenotu]

I clean my molds with a quick spray of brake cleaner and then it to a pan they go with some water,,,,,,, bring to a boil then simmer a few mins,,,,,* d@mn things never get tender ;),,,,, but they do get clean*

[mooman76]

I have one other thought. I have fortunately never delt with Zinc and the reason no body wants to is because it causes poor mould fill out. Is it posible you have contaminated lead?

[Joel Chavez]

mooman76, that is a thought, but wouldn't it show up in the other moulds? Like I said, I have another group buy mould(7.62x39) and a 2c "soup can" mould, Lyman 158gr SWC, Lee 158SWC-HP, Lee 230gr and none of them exhibit this issue. I did clean the mould again last night for about an hour so hopefully it will work tonight. Thanks for your input guys. I'll keep you posted tomorrow. Later.:castmine:

[Linstrum]

I guess I'd better back up a bit. I have been both machining my own molds as well as casting since 1964. In the 43 years since I built my first boolit mold for a British .303 I have encountered just about all the kinds of problems that are caused by various mold design inadequacies, as well as caused by casting problems.

Two seldom recognized sources of wrinkled bullets that are usually accompanied by incomplete mold fill-out are from inadequate venting and a too-small sprue hole. The reason why they are seldom recognized is because until Lee started making their aluminum molds without adequate quality control a few years back they were seldom seen! The problem that is being addressed here is classic for those circumstances WHEN the alloy temperature, the mold temperature, the kind of alloy, a clean mold that has been smoked, the casting technique of filling the mold rapidly, and the guy doing the casting having lots of experience, are exactly as they should be.

The first time I had experience with a too-small sprue hole was about thirty years ago when I loaned two molds I had just made to a buddy, one mold was a 500-grain .45 cal and the other was a 160-grain 6.5mm. I had used the same size sprue plate on both but had drilled two different sizes of sprue holes. My buddy said the 6.5mm mold worked great but he brought back my 500-grain mold, saying it would not work no matter what he did. He had the wrinkled bird-dropping-looking results of his attempts to prove it. I took one look at the mold and saw what was wrong, it had the sprue plate from the 6.5mm mold on it and its hole was about half the pouring capacity of the .45 cal sprue plate. Pouring capacity is controlled by the area of the hole, not its diameter, and varies by the square of the diameter. For example, a hole that measures 1-1/16-inch in diameter has twice the pouring capacity of a 3/4” hole! My buddy had swapped sprue plates when he had taken them off the molds to clean them up. I swapped the plates back and the problem was solved.

I had never seen a real bad venting problems until about 20 years ago when I bought a Lee mold to use as blank blocks for making a custom 550-grain .515 cal mold. The Lee cross hatch venting is marginal to begin with for a 180-grain .30 cal mold and for such a large volume mold as a 550-grain .515 cal boolit it was just plain inadequate. All I could get into the mold was a wrinkled up pea-sized blob of wheel weight alloy, so I spent about ten minutes with a jeweler's hacksaw to cut my own vent lines in, and problem solved!

I am really impressed by all the guys who have jumped on this with some really good ideas from their own past experience to help out, a lot of other boards just wouldn't go this far to help a guy. Nothing like a few decades of hard-earned knowledge to help solve problems. That is why I hang out at this board, I have quite a few years worth of experience I can draw on here at Boolits when I have a problem. It seems to me at last count it was up into the thousands of years!

[Joel Chavez]

Linstrum, thanks for your insight and wealth of info. I'm off of work now and heading home to tackle the mould again. Hope it works. Later.:castmine:

[Joel Chavez]

Houston, problem solved!!!!!! Apparently the culprit must have been residue of some sort on the cavities. I spent about an hour cleaning the cavities again last night with warm soapy water and a tooth brush. Immediately after the first cast, the boolits were as close to perfect as I could get them. I want to thank everyone who shared their input on the matter and I only hope I can someday return the favor.:drinks: Later.

[Linstrum]

Hi, Joel, You have patiently tried all the obvious things that normally would have delivered results by now, so you certainly "paid the price of admission", so to speak, before finally getting good results!

But in case you ever have to vent a mold- - -

I have never sat down and calculated the average amount of venting required per grain of boolit weight to give good mold fill-out, but that figure most certainly does exist. In the molds I make I put more venting in the molds for larger and heavier weight boolits than for the smaller ones.

I cut my venting lines with a jeweler's hacksaw or fine triangular jeweler's file and the ones that I cut using the saw are approximately 0.020” wide by about 0.005” deep. A piece of typing paper runs right around 0.002” thick and the sheet metal from a tin can like Dennison's chili or Green Giant creamed corn come in is 0.010” thick, so that gives you an idea of the dimensions we are talking about here. I put my vent lines about 1/8“ apart and I make sure that the ones on the left side DO NOT mate with the right side ones. Sometimes I put the lines at a 45° angle on one block and straight across on the other one so they intersect but of course still do not mate. It doesn't seem to matter which way they run, either way seems to be just as good as the other, but I tend to do the one at 45° with the other side straight across more often since I don't have to worry about them mating up accidentally. If they do mate it will leave a little lead wire sticking out the side of the boolit, but again that will not cause a problem but it is something that has to be picked off later on. Like I mentioned in my first post back at the beginning I also cut vent lines on the underside of the sprue plate in an X so it intersects the sprue hole, which helps a great deal in pouring since it relieves the air flow trying to get back out the sprue hole that isn't going out the vent lines. The X vent lines will leave four little tiny short lines radiating from the sprue cut on the base of the boolit but they don't cause trouble.

I mark the lines on my mold blocks with a #1 pencil and then guide the saw blade with a popsickle stick clamped with a little “C” clamp or held down with my thumb. Holding it by thumb is risky since if you slip you will scratch up the mold. This is only cosmetic and won't hurt the way the mold works, but if it is somebody else's mold you don't want to make it look bad. I eyeball the width and depth, but you can measure them by comparison using a dial or digital caliper.
The little mini hacksaw I use I bought at a tool store but I also see the same item at Home Depot and Lowe's for a really good price, and it includes a pack of extra blades along with the saw. I don't very often buy tools specially made for gunsmithing, I just keep an eye out for smaller stuff and also buy jeweler's, sewing machine repair, and silversmithing tools since they are pretty much identical to gunsmithing tools.
Good luck!

[Lloyd Smale]

Im going to go back to the zinc therory. I take it from the other posts youve tried this alloy in another mold and it worked fine. Another thing ive seen happen is zinc contamination in a mold. If this mold was casted by your buddy with zinc contaminated lead it could have a coating on the mold. If so it will take alot of agressive cleaning to get that mold right again and id have never had it happen to an aluminum mold so i dont know if it can be done. I know in a few steal molds its happened to it took spinning a bullet coated in fritz with a drill to get it all out. Im no expert on lee molds but i have to doubt if its a venting problem as there usually pretty sloppy and you get all the venting you need at the spruce plate and if there that tight that they wont vent the top of your mold will soon have score lines in it that will vent more then you want. Another though if you used this alloy before an its worked and its not now is pot comtamination do to zinc too. If you havent tried try casting a few bullets right now out of that pot and see if the alloy still casts well.

[38-55]

Lloyd,
I think he solved his problem... It seems it was the goo that lee leaves in their moulds.. Once it was cleaned out the mould functioned as it should... I've had this same problem myself...
Stay safe
Calvin
PS Linstrum excellent thoughts on venting.. I learned a bunch...

[Joel Chavez]

Thanks Llyod, but neither the melt nor pot were the problem. I cleaned the cavities as best as I could the night before and that seemed to have cured the issue.:mrgreen: However, I did notice that if the sprue plate is too tight the cavities closest to the handle hinge point won't fill up properly. I found this out by trial and error.[smilie=1: Thanks for your input and hope you have a great weekend. Later.:castmine:

[nighthunter]

Joel ..... You must be one patient SOB ...... I'd have had that mold beat flat and doubled over 74 times and beat again into the asphault out front and filmed for an episode of cops in Dallas. Then I would have sent the owner of the mold the money to cover the cost. Now .... you gotta tell me this ..... did the boolits shoot well for you? It's ok ...... You can take a deep breath ......
what are you going to try next?
BAD BOY BAD BOY WHAT YOU GONNA DO .......... LOL
Nighthunter

[Joel Chavez]

Nighthunter, you're one funny fella.:roll: Just kidding. I'm trying out the boolits tomorrow morning in my little boys deer rifle, a Handi 30/30. I'm loading them up soft with about 7-8grs of Unique with no stinkn' gas check and see what happens. If they can beat a 1/2 MOA at 50yds then we'll use them. I (we) were able to print a 1/2" group with the Handi at 50yds using the 7.62x39 boolit from a group buy my buddy Centex Bill loaned me. I'm rather excited about trying out the new boolits, but not holding my breath. I'll let you folks know tomorrow night. Thanks for the kind words NH. Later bro.:castmine:

[nighthunter]

Glad to hear Joel ..... Sometimes if you can't laugh about it, it ain't worth worrining about as my mother used to say. I hope those boolets work just fine for you and your son. Its very importantant to keep the young ones interested in the hobby of shooting and casting. I notice you are just slightly south of Austin TX. I get to Waco pretty often for work ... Maybe one of these days we might be able to get together for a cup of coffee. I have a slightly different sense of humor than most folks and my mother has scolded me for most of my life. But believe me ... It has gotten me through some pretty rough spots in life.
Nighthunter

[Joel Chavez]

NH, you bet. Let me know when you're in town and we can get together for some milk and cookies.:mrgreen: Sorry, but I don't drink beer, coffee, wine or soft drinks. Water, milk or OJ only.[smilie=1: A sense of humor is a great thing to have in one's life. My co-workers think mine is too far to the left......or was it to the right? Anyways, Waco is about 2.5hrs north of me, but my wife's grany lives in Rogers near Temple which is about 45 minutes from Waco. So let me know when you're in the area. Thanks for your insight and hope you have a great weekend. Later.:castmine:

[Lloyd Smale]

Glad you got it going. i guess ive never run into that problem with lee molds. Most cast just fine with a good spray of brake cleaner for me. If not i resort to nighthunters methods but before i get that angry i usually put them in the round plastic mold cabinet in the kitchen.

[crabo]

"Like I mentioned in my first post back at the beginning I also cut vent lines on the underside of the sprue plate in an X so it intersects the sprue hole, which helps a great deal in pouring since it relieves the air flow trying to get back out the sprue hole that isn't going out the vent lines. The X vent lines will leave four little tiny short lines radiating from the sprue cut on the base of the boolit but they don't cause trouble."


Linstrum, do you have a picture of this? I am thinking about making a new sprue plate for a Saeco mold I have.

Thanks,

Crabo