Technical roofing question please?

[L1A1Rocker]

Hey folks. Workers have started re-roofing the house this morning and I see something that doesn't look right to me. I don't want to be "that guy" following the foreman around asking questions so I'm posting it here, bothering you fine folks.

I the pic you see that the new felt paper is cut just short of the old flashing. I would think that it would be cut longer to overlap the old flashing. In my mind this looks like a leak problem in waiting. What do you experts say?


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM1546.jpg (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/L1A1Rocker/media/HPIM1546.jpg.html)

[Kraschenbirn]

Yup, you got that right...just a leak waitin' to drip!! Could be, though, your roofer is planning to lay another strip of felt paper along the wall to overlay both the flashing and the new felt he's already laid on the main roof. That's what I'd do, anyway.

Bill

[Bad Water Bill]

Are they going to put shingles over the felt paper?

The shingles should fit tight to everything and most contractors will caulk at all contact points to make a water tight fit.

They lose money if they have to return and they LOVE good referrals.

[s mac]

The felts main purpose is keep the shingles from adhearing to the deck, don't sweat it.

[Bad Water Bill]

The felts main purpose is keep the shingles from adhearing to the deck, don't sweat it.

Thanks for bringing back a bad memory.

When I had to replace my roof I found that the original roof (over 40+ years ago) had adhesive on the back and no roofing paper. Yes the adhesive was a different type in 2 different locations than I have ever seen and even a construction shovel had a hard time removing it. [smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[john hayslip]

Had a really bad experience with a roofer who used a staple gun. If they show up with one shoot them and get another roofer post haste. Our city code requires hand nailing.

[Bad Water Bill]

A STAPLE GUN, I take it the roofer did not employ REAL carpenters.

A good nail gun adjusted properly can do as good a job as a good carpenter. Not sure which one could finish the roof first.

[blackthorn]

It is your roof! You are the one paying to have it installed! You have every right to ask about anything you do not understand or feel may not be right. In fact, you owe it to yourself to ask so that you have confidance the work is done right.

[L1A1Rocker]

Well the forman was awol on another site. When they started putting down shingles I stopped them till the forman got here. Language issue (big supprise) he told the guy to pull the felt paper and re-do it. I've got some company reps on the way to make sure this goes right.

One of the minor sales guys just explained that they are supposed to shingle up to the side and calk/glue each shingle to the flashing. Sound right to you folks???

[s mac]

It will work although it would be better to flash with tin shingles[ pieces of tin folded laced with each shingle} with a counter flashing over the top, behind the sideing.

[oneokie]

The felt should go underneath the flashing, then the shingles on top of the flashing.

[sparky45]

I can't imagine NOT using a nail gun to do the roof. Now, if you're talking about a roofer using a pneumatic gun that shoots Staples instead of a pneumatic gun that shoots roofing Nails, then that's a different matter. Nails, yes; Staples, no. Just my opinion.

[Bad Water Bill]

Sorry but they should go back where they came from. Using the type of folks you pictured just might keep me awake every rainy night waiting for the bedroom ceiling to join me in bed.

Yes there are roofers that have just arrived from a foreign country with many years of experience but they generally are the only one in the crew that doesn't speak my language.

My dad laid brick for years and said most foreign folks taught the crew something new every house.

Dad learned to be a quality stone mason from a worker from Yugoslavia that could hardly speak the language but was an artist with rocks.

Sounds like another crew with their backs wet and learning at your expense.

Good luck.

[MtGun44]

I'd want the felt under the flashing, and shingles on top of it. You are looking a layered protection at
the joints. If water rolls off the shingle edge, the flashing turns most of it downhill, but some can leak back
horizontally, so you want the felt to keep it off the deck material and have to turn 180 and go
back under the flashing again to get to the deck. That is not going to happen.

Think LAYERED protection at the edges, more layers is better.

Bill

[waynem34]

I was taught to run the felt under the old flashings all the way to the wall and then a strip down the roof on top of the old flashing all the way to the wall. Installing a new piece of step flashing under each shingle. Each shingle gets a new piece of step flashing which you will not see unless you raise the tab up and look under it.My boss goes straight to these locations and looks.Seal the step flashing to the wall before installing counter flashing.Last seal the counter flashing and paint.Silicon is a good sealer.My boss always told me to think like a rain drop.Been roofing 30 years and yes I have had leaks ,no one is perfect.You can never get everything perfect but the closer you get it to perfect the better the end product will be.Material warranty is also depending on installation so.If installed wrong they will not cover it so.Just my $.02. Also we hand nail everything.Takes a little longer just his prefered method.

[lmcollins]

I helped do a couple of roofs 25 years ago, and the pros used a staple gun.

The staples had a wide crown, a good distance between their legs, and you had to be smart enough to have the compressor set so as not to shoot the crown of the staple nearly THROUGH the shingle. I would imagine that you could do about the same thing with the coil type roofing nail guns used today. I watched my 25 year old STAPLED on roof doen with a real roofing staple gun, and it was still good and tight after all of those northern Ohio 4 seasons.

Igrorance and stupidity are the same today as they were 25 years ago. I don't think that I could aford to have my roof done here in northern Ohio if each nail had to be pounded in by hammer individually.

[s mac]

I was taught to run the felt under the old flashings all the way to the wall and then a strip down the roof on top of the old flashing all the way to the wall. Installing a new piece of step flashing under each shingle. Each shingle gets a new piece of step flashing which you will not see unless you raise the tab up and look under it.My boss goes straight to these locations and looks.Seal the step flashing to the wall before installing counter flashing.Last seal the counter flashing and paint.Silicon is a good sealer.My boss always told me to think like a rain drop.Been roofing 30 years and yes I have had leaks ,no one is perfect.You can never get everything perfect but the closer you get it to perfect the better the end product will be.Material warranty is also depending on installation so.If installed wrong they will not cover it so.Just my $.02. Also we hand nail everything.Takes a little longer just his prefered method.

As I also was taught, I only roofed for 10 years, works really well.

[waynem34]

7907879079Sometimes we reuse old flashings if they are in good shape like this copper step and counter flashings after cleaning old calk away and resealing.

[popper]

Code down here is different, they don't felt unless they think it will rain. Yes, they use nail guns. Shingles over flashing with a sealer in between. No nails in the horizontal flashing. Lower part of the shingle is supposed to have a non-stick layer - if they stick they will buckle with the heat. Luckily, no cedar shakes anymore.

[Win94ae]

I'm not going to read every comment here; but the few I had read, had the wrong information that has the potential to cause a leak.

But to get to the point. Your region's building code probably calls for the felt to cover the entire roof surface, and the contractor could be fined if he fails to do so... also, the guarantee on your shingles may be voided due to improper installation.
So it is best to do everything by the prescribed building code for your area.

[waynem34]

The instructions are on the package the shingles come in.I usally send one home with the green guys. lol Tell them to tape it on the wall haha and study it.All joke aside the building inspector never gets on any of the rooves we do.Looks like you have good pitch so it will be hard for it to leak.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

s mac and waynem have it correct for our area. I've roofed for many a year and had my own carpentry company. With the use of step flashing under each shingle and one bend of the flashing under the siding, it is very, very hard to have a leak. Many don't do that method.

[dakotashooter2]

Yup grab one of the plastic wrappers off the shingle bundles and read it. Staples are allowed by code IF they are allowed (tested)by the manufacturers instructions. Not all manufacurers allow them with all their shingles. Sadly roofer rarely pay attension to that unless they are in an area where it is enforced.They should not break the surface of the shingle. If you are seeing more than an occasional break you could run into warrantee problems down the road.While reshingling is in the code it is an addendum that most communities don't adopt/enforce and thats why the inspectors don't get on the roof. I'm always a little leery when I see a crew that seems to be working TOO fast............

[daniel lawecki]

I would put ice shield down over that flashing then as I laid shingles I would put step flashing in between each course of shingle. I did my own home the way I said 6 years ago same overhang area as yours.

[Hogdaddy]

I'd nail the soffit up a little better than it is ; ) Black jack under shingles & 5 nails each from a coil roofing gun should do the trick..; )
H/D

[2AMMD]

+1 for what oneoky said

[oneokie]

Another thing to make sure of---the felt goes on top of the metal drip edge flashing.

[garym1a2]

Most important. if they strip the old roof make them give you the old LEAD flashing!

[10x]

Hey folks. Workers have started re-roofing the house this morning and I see something that doesn't look right to me. I don't want to be "that guy" following the foreman around asking questions so I'm posting it here, bothering you fine folks.

I the pic you see that the new felt paper is cut just short of the old flashing. I would think that it would be cut longer to overlap the old flashing. In my mind this looks like a leak problem in waiting. What do you experts say?


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM1546.jpg (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/L1A1Rocker/media/HPIM1546.jpg.html)

1) that flashing should be a "Step flashing" rather than a solid piece.
2) the felt or paper should go under the flashing and right up to the wall
3) The strip of tar on the flashing is not enough to stop water. it will leak eventually.

The way I would do this

1) remove siding from the vertical wall
2) run paper up to the wall and at least 6" up wall
3) install step flashing with each row of shingles
4) reinstall siding on the wall

I spent 5 years as a siding contractor and would never, ever leave a solid flashing like that.

[10x]

Well the forman was awol on another site. When they started putting down shingles I stopped them till the forman got here. Language issue (big supprise) he told the guy to pull the felt paper and re-do it. I've got some company reps on the way to make sure this goes right.

One of the minor sales guys just explained that they are supposed to shingle up to the side and calk/glue each shingle to the flashing. Sound right to you folks???

Caulk the shingle to the flashing??
Its gonna leak eventually....

This is what a proper transition to a wall looks like with step flashing

79152
I have been known to place a piece of 3/8" lath about an inch away from the wall to create a slope away from the wall under the flashing as well.
Just one of those touches that insures water does not run towards the flashing in a heavy rain.

[frkelly74]

It will work although it would be better to flash with tin shingles[ pieces of tin folded laced with each shingle} with a counter flashing over the top, behind the sideing.


this is step flashing and it is the right way to flash a roof/wall intersection. it should be new and it should extend up under the siding.

[Jammersix]

Solid flashing is fine, particularly with the siding you have. Step flashing is fine. It's usually used with bevel siding.

"Best" is relative, just like it is with boolits. There is no "best".

It doesn't matter which system is used, what matters is that the system is used correctly.

Amateurs create leaks. Bad advice creates leaks.

You need a couple pieces of new siding, anyway, and you need paint. Solid flashing should come out on top of the shingles. That means the siding comes off, the flashing comes off, the shingles go down and are sealed, then the siding and flashing go back on. That means you'll have another seam to deal with. Where do you want to stop? How far do you want to go? How much money do you want to spend?

Wherever you stop, you're going to compromise.

smac and waynem know what they're talking about. Since someone was rude enough to mention it, the language the roofers speak has nothing to do with it. They're up there doing it, the people here aren't.

I was a general for thirty years. It's not rocket science, and everyone has an opinion. And just like boolits, it's about how much you want to do, and where you compromise.

If you want to do it perfectly, start with a track hoe, tear the entire house down, design and build a new, perfect house.

Otherwise, wherever you stop, at that point you're going to compromise. It can be at the line between the roof and the old flashing, between new flashing and the old siding, somewhere out in the field in the siding, with all new siding, but somewhere, you're going to say "enough!" and stop.

A written guarantee from a local, reputable, licensed, bonded roofer against leaks is far better than the sum of all the "advice" you're going to get on this board. Pick a roofer that has been in business for more than ten years, get his guarantee in writing, and forget about it. Don't try to get low bids, just find a roofer based on reputation, and pay what he asks.

Good luck.

[mikeym1a]

Had a really bad experience with a roofer who used a staple gun. If they show up with one shoot them and get another roofer post haste. Our city code requires hand nailing.

I work for a construction rental place, and they have a wide crown stapler. These staples are 1in wide, heavy gauge wire, and can be from 1in to 2in in length. I used it the last time I did my roof. I feel the wide footprint of that staple will hold the shingle down better. Plus, it cuts the installation time down greatly. First time, It took me 3 days to do the whole roof. This last time, one day. I'm a fan of that pneumatic stapler. :D

[popper]

With all the professional roofers here, question. I found a 10# roll of 2' aluminized craft paper in the attic. What the heck is it used for? Just curious.

[waynem34]

I was a general for thirty years. It's not rocket science, and everyone has an opinion. And just like boolits, it's about how much you want to do, and where you compromise.

I agree with this post 100%.There are many right ways depending on circumstance. Low slope needs more care high slope wont leak if it has a hole big as a baseball.Awnings and eaves contribute alot of protection so you should be fine as frog hair.

[waynem34]

With all the professional roofers here, question. I found a 10# roll of 2' aluminized craft paper in the attic. What the heck is it used for? Just curious.

Slip sheet.

[popper]

Slip sheet. What is it used for?

[waynem34]

Sip sheet Reduces friction.Also there is a rule about dissimilar metals.They do not jive well together.It may be for segregation of two diiferant metals such as copper and tin.

[roscottjr]

As a remodeling contractor I can say the OP's pic looks to me like you need to go chew some butts or get someone out there who can make sure it is done right. First of all, forget the flashing. When tearing off an old roof you remove ALL of the old roof, not 99% of it and let the rest go. I see pieces of old shingles still on that old flashing. Those will cause leaks because they will cause bulges in the new shingles and can prevent the flashing from laying flat without bending it. Once they get all of the old roofing off, then they can start with the felt, then flashing as others have described here. Looks to me like you going to have issues shortly after they leave if not the first time it rains. Good luck with a callback. I have seen others do this kind of work and never return to fix leaks. Staples are a no no, most definitely if they are from a slap stapler like you use to put up insulation. Yes I had an entire roof slide out from under me because someone installed it with a slap stapler and 3/8 staples. It is your house and your money, if they cant do it right find someone else. If you question anything they say, post it here and see what responses you get.

Robert

[s mac]

Popper what you have is a combo paper patch, alum gas check material! Just kidding, I'm not familiar with this material.

[BD]

If a guy wanted to flash into this dormer wall correctly, he would need to first remove the old flashing and the siding. To correctly flash any sheet siding, (T-111), to the roof, you need to run a flashing board, some would call it a water table, along the base of the wall below the siding. I do this by first running a rip of plywood 2" taller than the upturn of the flashing. I cover this with a piece of Vycor , (peel and stick nail sealer), which turns down onto the roof. Then the roof is shingled and step flashed as normal with the step flashing turned up on the plywood rip. A pine or cedar board , (the flashing board), is then applied over the step flashing, (screwed on so it can be easily removed to re-roof), held up off the roof by 1". This gets a head flashing to protect the top edge of the flashing board and the plywood rip. That head flashing extends up under the siding which is applied over it, held up off the head flashing by 1/4". This creates a leak proof junction between the wall and roof good for any pitch in any climate and it allows for proper re-roofing simply by removing the flashing board to access the step flashing. In many climates this junction is very prone to rot due to leaves, debris and snow building up against the wall. In that circumstance a flashing board is far more easily replaced if needed, than siding of any type that's rotted on the lower edge. If one wanted to go the extra money, the flashing board could be synthetic, eliminating the rot issue all together.
BD