Old time craftsmanship

[Bret4207]

The farm I bought has a long history behind it. The original family that had the farm for generations is still in the area and photos and stories of their skill as farmers, stockmen, carpenters and mechanics abound. The original part of the barn dates from around 1870, the newer part from 1910 and the milkhouse from about 1920. I've been told on more than one occasion that it was my responsibility to try and bring the farm back to the standard it was once in, back in the days of "High Farming". So with the lofty expectations in mind I set to putting a new roof on the milkhouse yesterday.

The old shingle roof had been leaking a bit and since my reloading gear now resides within, it seemed a good idea to do the roof. Naturally, it was raining. It ALWAYS rains when I do any roofing. It's like a law of nature or something. The building is only 16'x20' so it wasn't going to take long to slap on the steel and move onto other things. Alas and alon, 'twas not to be! The biggest thing with applying steel roofing is to get the first sheet on square with the building. If you don't it'll run off the edge or look cockeyed. Well friends, I laid the first sheet up did my measuring. It should have been as square as could be. I got down off the roof and took a gander at it. WHAT!?!? Back up and measure. Up and down, up and down, up and down. I measured, I chalk lined, I did everything except what I should have. After half an hour of this I walked to the shop and grabbed a framing square. THE FOUNDATION IS 8" OUT OF SQUARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :groner:


Old time craftsmanship my Aunt Minnie.[smilie=b:

[dubber123]

Ha, ha!, Bret, guess what I'm doing this weekend! Yep, putting a metal roof on my brothers 1920's vintage house, and this thing isn't square in any single direction. Lots of "cheating going on! I made the comment after working on a few of these older buildings that the entire population of the U.S. must have been falling down drunk from day one. Try tiling one of these old buildings. On the other hand, lots of them are still standing today., Good luck.

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Bret; I have a 14'X18" room added to my house by the previous owners that is 8" out of square on the slab! You'd think someone would have noticed something?
A friend made the comment that with these folks it probably depended on how much of what was in the bag that day!!!

[square butte]

Yep, I'm in the middle of all the same stuff here in VT. Our place built in 1870 with slate roofing. Relace a couple of section of roof with steel over the last couple of years - the sections that are not pitched steeply enough to slide the snow. They wind up with too many broken slates and start to leak. Then there is the knob and tube wireing weve been steadily replacing - not because it's unsafe , but because the insurance company doesnt like it. Then teres the sagging floors. Anything you drop in the kitchen rolls right underneath the stove. Everything is out of plumb. You have to split the difference tho make anything look halfway decent. Constant projects. Dirt floor in the cellar leads to high hummidity in certain parts of the house . Not sure how I'm going to handle that one. Would like to have a safe , but not sure i have a single floor in that house that would support one well. All the best to the both of you.

[RayinNH]

A lot of this stuff was built by weekend carpenters. I'm not saying you have to be a professional to do good work but it's usually in your favor. A lack of proper tooling and skill usually leads to this sort of thing. The builder may of only had a hammer, saw and folding rule. Add to that a sixth grade education and poor math skills and you end up with a foundation out of squre.
A few years back I replaced a section of exterior wall and a window. After pulling off the clapboards it was revealed to have been covered in leftover pieces of sheet metal, brick pattern, one and two feet square as a wind barrier. This was long before Tyvek and similar wind barrier products. Under that was pine boards that were not edge squared. Whatever shape the tree was, is the way they went on. The framing was okay except at the window. Apparently they ran out of 2x4's for the king stud and scabbed on a rocker from a no longer used rocking chair. That odd part is that it ended about a foot shy of reaching the sole plate :roll:. However it remained like that for 50-60 years, until I came along and disturbed it, with nary a hiccup...Ray

[NVcurmudgeon]

A friend of mine has tiled bathrooms in two houses for me. One house was built in 1952 and the other in the mid 1960s. John is a retired plumber, former draftsman, and can do it all when it comes to building a house. Everytime he did one of those jobs for me, and had to fudge his tiling, he would quote a former superintendent of his. "We aren't building a watch here, men." I built several benches, shelves, etc, in my current 1972 built house,as well as a little sheet rock work. The dirty little secret of the construction trade seems to be that nothing is square, but I guess it's close enough, or we'd all be living in caves.

[BD]

The real need for level and square didn't come about until the advent of milled KD lumber and 4'x8' manufactured sheet goods. It's very rare, even in high end homes, to find nearly level and square construction in anything built before the 1920s. In those days labor was cheap and "factory" materials were expensive. Most buildings were ballon framed and board sheathed just as fast as they could get the frame up, with the millwork carefully hand crafted to fit after there was shelter to work in. Board sheathing, plaster interior walls and slate roofs didn't require the
adherence to level and square that we need today to use "modern" sheet stock material efficiently. I've done a fair amount of renovation work on homes built before 1900 which were the highest quality construction available at the time, and level and square just weren't always part of the equation. On a pre-1900 farm, the fact that you have a foundation is evidence that it was a quality job. A less prosperous outfit would have built on cedar sill logs set on boulders, and that building probably would not still be standing.
BD

[floodgate]

Our 30" x 40" old farm house was reportedly built about 1905; it is based on three 40' redwood 8 x 8s lengthwise and 2 30-footers across the ends lap-jointed together and set up on redwood blocks (and one handy tree-stump at one corner). The sills were broad-ax hewed square, obviously by a very skilled tie-cutter (tie-cutting was big here around then), very nice work indeed, from redwood saplings (a tiny bit of sapwood showing at the coners on the small end); joists and framing from mixed redwood and fir off-cuts from one of the local mills, rough-sawed to full-inch dimensions (so I have to replace 2" x 4"s with ripped-down 2" x 6"). Some poor design in the overhead framing needed cripple-studs of 3/4" allthread. But it had held up well enough to be restorable when we moved in in 1984. I have poured 12" x 16" grade beams 3/4ths of the way around (the fourth corner sets on grade) with 12" x 12" piers every 6' - 7' feet, and lots of rebar. I got it level to 4" in 40' before the roof showed signs of breaking up; probably better than it was levelled when built! Added insulation everywhere we had a chance to get into the walls; and it's pretty cozy now. Let's not even begin to talk about "square". But it will last the rest of our lifetimes, and that's all we are looking for.

floodgate

floodgate

[kodiak1]

Well I never I thought that stuff only happened up North in the poor light conditions and the cold weather that we always have....LMAO
Tinning rooves on out af square structures get your tin long enough so it over hangs good on the bottom and top if need be then mount a cut off wheel in the skill saw and make here look as close to perfect as you can.
There is no way do yopu want to bring out a square a tape measure or a chaulk line!!!!!!!
Ken.

[KYCaster]

They sure don't build 'em like they used to!!![smilie=1:

Jerry

PS: And that's a good thing!

[Boz330]

Years ago I was told that the sign of a good carpenter was his ability to hide his mistakes and make it look right.
My first house was built from rough cut lumber taken from the farm. Then some years later a couple rooms were added on with store bought lumber. I remodeled some of it before I moved in and oh what a joy. The studs were oak, walnut and poplar. The oak was so hard that I had to drill the nail holes before trying to put a nail in it. There wasn't anything square, plumb or level, everything had to be fitted. It took me 3 months to get it livable. The previous owner added the indoor plumbing and he thought that the PVC sewer pipe just snapped together. The water pipes were just nailed to the walls and the bathroom wall was 9 inches out of square in 6 ft. I figured out real fast that it was easier toi build a house from scratch than rebuild it.

Bob

[KCSO]

You know I'l bet those cows gave sour milk from having to be in that crooked building all those years.

[Gussy]

Bret, I have put on a lot of steel. You can "adjust" for that out of square with steel roofing. Put the screws in angled in the direction you need to gain or lose. put top in one way and bottom the other, then fill in. You can make up that problem and end up square at the end.

You are using screws I hope. Nails do not hold up near as well. Use over size/length screws and DO NOT over tighten and strip the thread, just enough to squish the rubber good. The over sized screws hold much better and not over tightening prevents "backout". Backout is simply a small stripped screw lifting from the expansion of the metal.

Also, predrilling starting holes gives a straight screw line and looks much better. Drill the sheets while in a stack. Very important for side walls. For side walls always make sure that the screw line is straight at 2 levels, a persons viewing line either standing or in a car. These two are the most visible and will be noted.
Gus

[BD]

I did "stretch" a screwdown steel roof on a log cabin in Maine at one point. This roof was longer on the ridge than at the eave. We stretched it by starting in the middle and then working in both directions we screwed the farther edge of the top of each piece a bit wide each time. We'd screw the far edge, then pull the panel back over, or under, the lap and hold it while we screwed through the two sheets, then go back and put in the intermediate screws. We tried squeezing the short edge but that led to the sheet humping up a bit between the ribs. Wasn't much fun.
BD

[Bret4207]

Know what you guys mean about stretching, but 8" in 20' is a lot of stretch! The top ridges would been flattened and the lower ridges humped up in the air 6"! I'll snip the overhang and chalk it up to experience.

[Gussy]

Bret, You would be surprised at how much you can move a sheet!! Go more for the stretch than the shrink. If it's delta rib type, hold the sheet up slightly when putting the screw in and angle it. It will slightly flatten the rib and open it. Start at the lap side to get a good fit and work across it. It will require a screw in each flat on the top and bottom. Get the extra wide trim piece to finish it off. Either end, side wall or gable.
Gus

[medic44]

My house has 2x 8 floor joists w/ 14 ft span and +/-2 ft on center. The only reason that the floor is not lower in the center is that the joists are resting on the ground.

[Junior1942]

You guys ain't seen any craftmanship at all to compare to my dad's plumbing. He was a product/victim of the Great Depression. In other words, you fix it with what's on hand or what's in the town dump or what's the absolute cheapest. When he got too old to fix leaks, etc., my brother and I came to the rescue. The cold water line to the bathroom, for example.

The bathroom is on the low side of the house. It's 25 feet of on-yo'-belly crawling to get beneath it. The cold water line started under the house, on the high side, as galvanized pipe. Then it became cold water PVC for a few feet. Then it became galvanized again the rest of the way.

Under the bathroom, it nippled up a foot. Then it t-ed out 6" or so on each side and became two hose bibs. To one hose bib was connected a rubber air hose which connected to the connections leading to the commode. To the other hose bib was connected a copper pipe which connected to the convoluted connections leading to the lavatory and the bathtub.

This all started when I realized that when my dad flushed his commode it flushed under his house. It's all been replaced now with one exception--the hot water line headed to the bathroom is still cold water PVC. Which starts under the house as galvanized.

[ktw]

I live in one of those houses (a rental, I don't own it).

Old two-story farmhouse built around the turn of the century. Lathe and plaster walls. The house was moved to a new location a mile away a few decades later, back when they were still doing fieldstone basements. The interior was remodeled at some point to the extent that the upstairs and downstairs load bearing walls are now 18" off-line. New rooms were added as additions. A large enclosed porch was added on two sides... There isn't a straight line or square corner in the whole place.

I often think about what it would take to repair one aspect of it or another, then shudder and thank my lucky stars that I don't own it. If it were mine I would start out fixing a window sill and find myself tearing down two exterior walls and the entire roof in the process.

The place sure has a lot of character, though. :-D

-ktw

[dubber123]

I live in one of those houses (a rental, I don't own it).

Old two-story farmhouse built around the turn of the century. Lathe and plaster walls. The house was moved to a new location a mile away a few decades later, back when they were still doing fieldstone basements. The interior was remodeled at some point to the extent that the upstairs and downstairs load bearing walls are now 18" off-line. New rooms were added as additions. A large enclosed porch was added on two sides... There isn't a straight line or square corner in the whole place.

I often think about what it would take to repair one aspect of it or another, then shudder and thank my lucky stars that I don't own it. If it were mine I would start out fixing a window sill and find myself tearing down two exterior walls and the entire roof in the process.

The place sure has a lot of character, though. :-D

-ktw
"character" huh? We call it "rustic" up here, especially when we are trying to sell one!

[Bret4207]

On those TV "rebuild an entire house in 30 minutes" show my wife watches the term would be "charming".

[Mk42gunner]

You know, when I was a kid in high school remodelling those old houses wasn't too bad....


Now after working on my own post civil war house, I have to wonder what kind of illicit substance those people are imbibing.


Robert

[ktw]

"character" huh? We call it "rustic" up here, especially when we are trying to sell one!

For some reason this one can't be bought. And it grows on you.

The previous tenants rented the place for 12 years. They only ended up moving out because the landlord repeatedly refused to sell it to them. My wife scoffed when she first heard that story, thinking it was absolutely ridiculous for someone to rent for as long as 12 years. That was when we first moved in, 10 years ago. She has tried to talk the landlord into selling it, too. She has no concept of what it would take to maintain/fix up this place. Fortunately for me the owner is still has no interest in selling.

-ktw

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Bret; I have called mine lots of names...........Charming ain't on the lost!!
Just finished putting down the 3/4" plywood in for the new bathroon floor (one drink ago) wow, all I've got left in there is ceramic tile floor, drywall, lights, vent, paint.........Charming???? yeah right!!
Only 30 or so inside projects left!!!
Nick

[omgb]

I had a 1964 tract home in Saugus, CA. My daughter just bought if from us and put new moulding around the base of the walls in every room. The old stuff was some simple 1" flat stuff with a bead of 1/4 round at the base. The new stuff is fancy 3" mill cut stuff. Well, of course, now one can clearly see just how crooked the walls really are, especially in the hall which runs the length of the house. Thank the good Lord for caulk is all I can say. :drinks:

[Flinchrock]

A friend of mine has tiled bathrooms in two houses for me. One house was built in 1952 and the other in the mid 1960s. John is a retired plumber, former draftsman, and can do it all when it comes to building a house. Everytime he did one of those jobs for me, and had to fudge his tiling, he would quote a former superintendent of his. "We aren't building a watch here, men." I built several benches, shelves, etc, in my current 1972 built house,as well as a little sheet rock work. The dirty little secret of the construction trade seems to be that nothing is square, but I guess it's close enough, or we'd all be living in caves.

I think that is why it's called "rough framing":???: