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danyboy
08-09-2013, 08:36 AM
Bought a supposedly Lyman Plains rifle (suspect it was sold as a kit back then ) muzzleloader . Can't find 'Lyman' engraved anywhere. On the barrel, I can read:
'cal.45 Black Powder Only -made in italy' . Serial number 006571. Some logo with 'MAV' in it. Also 'XXXpn'. Serial no close to vent hole and hammer matches.
Question: Could this be a Lyman sold as a kit back then ?
Thank You.

fouronesix
08-09-2013, 11:45 AM
Could be any one of a number of kits and/or finished rifles sold back in the 70s-80s (mostly to get in on the ML revival and to compete with the T/C "Hawken". The Lyman Great Plains rifles sold as kits or finished guns back then look just like the kits or finished Lyman Great Plains rifles of today. And it's not one of those.

However it does look like a Lyman Plains Rifle or one sold under the name of J.L. Galef and called the "Hawken". If a Lyman Plains Rifle, it should be either 45 or 50 cal and have a 24" twist. If a Galef "Hawken", it would be 45, 50 or 58 caliber with unknown twist? The two are so similar could be made by the same company.

danyboy
08-09-2013, 12:31 PM
I see.
Thanks a lot

rmark
08-09-2013, 08:28 PM
I think it's a Spanish manufactured 'Hawken' replica from the late 1970's - 1980's. Probably has a 1-48 twist. These (or similar) were sold through catalog stores like Sears or Dixie and may have a store name on them. I don't think Lyman sold these.

Nobade
08-09-2013, 08:38 PM
The Lyman guns have iron trim. That looks like an Investarms "hawken" sold under any manner of brand names. Cabelas still sells that same gun I believe, under their brand.

-Nobade

fouronesix
08-09-2013, 09:51 PM
The most distinguishing feature on the rifle in the OP is the patch box. The picture and description match the Lyman Plains rifle shown and listed in the 1976 edition of the Lyman Muzzleloader Handbook pg 223. The picture and description also matches the Galef Hawken pg 221. I'd think the Lyman Plains rifle would be the most likely, but as I posted earlier, it's possible the same company supplied at least the "Lyman" and "Galef" branded guns... and possibly others.

The description in the listing:

Plains Rifle... Lyman
Cal- 45 or 50
Bbl length- 28" rifled
Overall length- 45"
Weight- 8lbs 12oz
Twist- 1/24"

Features and Finish:
Walnut stock, adjustable double set trigger, brass trigger guard and furniture. Fully adjustable sights. Distinctive, easy to open patch box. Hooked breech. Assembly kit available, also accessory kit. Accessory kit contains cavity mold (round ball or conical), handles, spare nipple, nipple wrench, ball starter, Lyman Patch Lube, 100 patches, adjustable powder measure and "Black Powder Basics".

Price 225.00
240.00 w/ accessory kit
30.00 Plains Rifle access. kit

It's interesting to note that the 1975 Lyman Black Powder Handbook lists and shows the same rifle but only in 45 cal and a 1/48" twist. Hard to say but the 1976 edition showing a 1/24" twist may be a misprint??

Cosmiceyes
08-09-2013, 09:57 PM
Bought a supposedly Lyman Plains rifle (suspect it was sold as a kit back then ) muzzleloader . Can't find 'Lyman' engraved anywhere. On the barrel, I can read:
'cal.45 Black Powder Only -made in italy' . Serial number 006571. Some logo with 'MAV' in it. Also 'XXXpn'. Serial no close to vent hole and hammer matches.
Question: Could this be a Lyman sold as a kit back then ?
Thank You.

It's a early model CVA ,as I recognize the brass hardware. The trigger guard is a dead give away. They came in both kit,and already built back then too.

Nobade
08-10-2013, 07:36 AM
I didn't know the Plains Rifle ever looked like that! I thought they were always like what is sold today - maybe that's why it's now the Great Plains Rifle.

-Nobade

danyboy
08-11-2013, 02:43 PM
Wow, so many different answers ! What triggered my curiosity is not having any 'Lyman Plains Rifle' marking anywhere and also this logo with 'MAV' in it ??? Twist is definitely a 1:48 that I measured. Sights were missing. I managed to fit a peep sight meant for a Kentucky on it. Just got a 3/8" Parker Hale front aperture sight and will have to file it to fit this what seems to be European size dovetail.
Holes were previously rapped for a Quigley scope (long flute style) so I might one day drill a scope mount to match the 3 rear holes (one factory and two made after purchase).
If it was a CVA, wouldn't you see CVA engraved anywhere on it ? Did Lyman always have company markings on their barrels ?
I tried it without sights or scope yesterday at the range with patch round balls and wow, 2" 5 shot group at 50 yards. I think I'm gonna have some fun with this baby.

danyboy
08-11-2013, 03:02 PM
Here are more pictures of the markings
788957889678897

fouronesix
08-11-2013, 04:27 PM
The photos aren't clear enough to make much out. Still hard to say the brand or much else, without a retail brand clearly stamped. Could be that some of the early kits came unbranded, in other words generic, whether they were sold by Lyman or whoever. Would make some sense because the retailer may not necessarily want their name on a poorly assembled kit ??? The other possibility is sometime in the past the barrel was replaced with a generic or unbranded barrel ???

Normally the PN would be the Italian proof house stamp of Gardone & Brescia. But usually the PN is stand alone with a small symbol. The XXX would be a date code for 1974. The MAV in a box or logo sounds like a manufacturer's code. Got me? But if it has a nice bore and shoots well, shouldn't matter which retailer marketed or sold it.

mooman76
08-11-2013, 04:27 PM
A lot of your earlier muzzle loaders when they got back into making these nostalgic copies didn't have allot of markings because they were subcontracted and made for allot of different companies that sold them under their name. Invest Arms out of Italy mad most of the Lymans and CVAs were made in Spain but they could have bought some from Italy. It didn't look like any CVA that I've ever seen and to me it looked exactly like the Lyman pictured in the add that was posted.

EOD3
08-13-2013, 03:24 PM
IIRC, (not often), one of the great plains rifles had a 1:66 for shooting patched ball.

The OP rifle "might" be a Lyman trade rifle but I seriously doubt it's a plains rifle.

fouronesix
08-13-2013, 04:20 PM
I know what an 1800s Leman Trade rifle is. I don't know what a 1970-80s Lyman Trade rifle is.

Here's a pic of a Lyman Plains rifle as pictured in the 1975 edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook and it notes a 48" twist. The 1976 Lyman ML Handbook lists a 24" twist for this rifle--- probably an error as noted in post #6 above.


The Lyman Great Plains rifle came along a few years later... probably in an attempt to better resemble a "Hawken" type rifle with iron furniture, two barrel wedges and a more "Hawkenesque" style trigger guard. It is still being offered by Lyman in pretty much the same config. You see them called the Lyman GPR in abbreviated vernacular.

The Lyman Trade Rifle as pictured on the right is different from the unknown as pictured in the OP.

danyboy
08-13-2013, 08:00 PM
Eod3,
Lyman Plains rifle and Great plains rifle are 2 separate ones. Mine looks exactely like the one on the left so it is a Lyman Plains for sure. I also own a Lyman Trade rifle which looks like the one on the right.