Measuring Powder by Weight as Opposed to Volume

[ArizonaFlinter]

I have a Lyman 55 powder measure. I am hearing folks talking about measuring BH 209 by volume and then weighing it then adjusting a powder measure to throw that weight. The thought seems to be more consistent than measuring by volume.

First, anyone here doing this? And, if so, how does it work?

Second, would trying this approach with Pyrodex RS be risky? And, if not, would it improve consistency over measuring by volume? Seems like it would.

[Junior1942]

Your Lyman 55 throws by volume. I've heard they're dangerous with black, too.

[Maven]

"Second, would trying this approach with Pyrodex RS be risky?"

AZFlinter, It would indeed be risky unless you remember that Pyro. RS by volume doesn't weigh what your volumetric measure says it does. If you were to weigh a dozen 80gr. charges of Pyro. RS, and then average them, you would find they weigh ~20% less or ~64grs. by weight. Moisture content in your Pyro. RS may cause that figure to vary though. Consistency would probably improve over volumetric measurement, but not by a significant degree. Moreover, I seriously doubt you'll see much difference on the target attributable to weighed v. thrown charges. If you have a chronograph, you can easily test this.





















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[7of7]

I do that all the time. It is basically backwards from smokeless. Smokeless, you use weight to set the specific volume of powder to throw. Black powder, you use the volume, (as in measure a specific volume) to get the weight of that volume so you can set the measure to throw that weight of powder, which is based upon the volume.
I have a couple hundred small containers that I purchased from Tapp Plastics, a local plastic shop, that will hold 110 grains of black. So, what I do is adjust my measure to throw my 80 grain charges, fill the hopper, and start premeasuring loads. Makes it really nice at the range, no measuring, just grab a container, dump it down the bore, and follow with a patch and ball..
I have noticed, I can load another shot fairly quick..

[Fly]

I do that all the time. It is basically backwards from smokeless. Smokeless, you use weight to set the specific volume of powder to throw. Black powder, you use the volume, (as in measure a specific volume) to get the weight of that volume so you can set the measure to throw that weight of powder, which is based upon the volume.
I have a couple hundred small containers that I purchased from Tapp Plastics, a local plastic shop, that will hold 110 grains of black. So, what I do is adjust my measure to throw my 80 grain charges, fill the hopper, and start premeasuring loads. Makes it really nice at the range, no measuring, just grab a container, dump it down the bore, and follow with a patch and ball..
I have noticed, I can load another shot fairly quick..

That is what I do also.Being I make my own BP even corned it may be a little different in weigh.
So I weigh it with my Lee beam scale & pour into adjustable powder measure & set
it with powder at top & pour into viles.

Quick & easy at range or in the field.
Fly

[ArizonaFlinter]

Your Lyman 55 throws by volume. I've heard they're dangerous with black, too.

I know the Lyman 55 throws by volume. My main concern has to do with the shearing action on BP substitutes (Pyrodex RS). I understand BP has a tendency to ignite when it isn't wanted. Therefore the hazmat charge when shipping. Pyrodex RS seems to have no haxmat charges making me think the shearing action of a Lyman 55 would be no problem.

[ArizonaFlinter]

Maven

The idea is to determine the weight of a typical 100 gr volume of Pyrodex, adjust the Lyman 55 to throw that volume (and thereby weight) of Pyrodex RS. Then, weigh each load and trickle charge to a consistent weight. This would be for hunting (and sighting in for hunting) loads and when working up accuracy loads (going for consistency) only. Way more trouble than I care to do for just having fun.

I hope to have a chronograph early next year. Then the serious testing begins.

[ArizonaFlinter]

7of7

If this approach works for you with black powder I have to believe it will work for Pyrodex RS. Thanks. Could you provide more information on the Tapp Plastics containers. I Googled “Tapp Plastics” and found there page but couldn't find any containers that stood out as being the ones you use.

[dondiego]

BP certainly isn't shock sensitive and the rotor drum on my 55 is made of brass so no chance for sparks unless the main body of the 55 is a problem but I think that the real issue is that the brass drum corrodes really easily unless cleaned of all BP residue so Lyman doesn't recommend it.

[ArizonaFlinter]

Fly thanks

[fouronesix]

I know some use regular Lyman 55s for throwing BP charges and don't have problems. While possible, I don't think it is high percentage risk. However, Lyman does make a model 55 that is designed for BP. I use three model 55s. An Ideal 55, a Lyman 55- both dedicated for smokeless and a Lyman 55 blackpowder model dedicated to BP.

I don't use substitute BP so no info on that.

[ArizonaFlinter]

BP certainly isn't shock sensitive and the rotor drum on my 55 is made of brass so no chance for sparks unless the main body of the 55 is a problem but I think that the real issue is that the brass drum corrodes really easily unless cleaned of all BP residue so Lyman doesn't recommend it.

Good point about corrosion. Hadn't thought about that. Thanks

[Maven]

Maven

The idea is to determine the weight of a typical 100 gr volume of Pyrodex, adjust the Lyman 55 to throw that volume (and thereby weight) of Pyrodex RS. Then, weigh each load and trickle charge to a consistent weight. This would be for hunting (and sighting in for hunting) loads and when working up accuracy loads (going for consistency) only. Way more trouble than I care to do for just having fun.

I hope to have a chronograph early next year. Then the serious testing begins.


I've done that with both FFg and Pyro. RS when I loaded .45-70 cartridges. (I used a Lee Perfect Powder Measure instead of the Lyman.) Believe me when I say it took longer to do it that way than by simply using my Uncle Mike's adjustable volumetric BP measure and pouring the charge down a drop tube. If you practice with volumetric measures, you can become very consistent and accurate with results varying by <1gr. out of 70grs., for ex. As for accuracy, neither I nor the target could tell the difference between weighed v. thrown (volumetric) charges.

[Sensai]

The difference between the regular 55 and the black powder 55 is the hopper on the BP is metal to prevent the possibility of electrostatic discharge from the plastic hopper setting off the powder. Smokeless powder has enough graphite coating to do the same thing. They didn't just do it for fun, there had to be at least one incedent to cause the special product line.

Just so there's no confusion, the purpose of getting a weighed charge is for consistency. Don't try to use a 100 grain black powder substitute weighed charge for a 100 grain thrown volumetric charge. The bp substitute is manufactured so that it is comparable to bp BY VOLUME, not by weight.

[dondiego]

Static electricity can't set off BP.

[fouronesix]

Unless you are into very specialized long range muzzleloader target shooting, it'd be hard to say that a carefully and consistently volume measured charge would yield inferior results to a carefully weighed charge. For average muzzleloader purposes, seems like too many other large overriding variables to sort through to even isolate a performance or accuracy difference between volume and weighed charges. Even among the bench rest, Jbullet shooters that get up tight about .01" group size variance, there is and has been a long running debate about thrown vs weighed charges.

For muzzleloader charging, I just use a volume measure, either cut to drop a specific charge or one of the adjustable types. For BPCR I use the Lyman 55 blackpowder model to drop a specific volume because, unlike in a muzzleloader, a cartridge is a stack of specific volumes/lengths. I know some weigh each charge for BP cartridges but dropped charges from a volume measure seem to work for me.

[aspangler]

Static electricity can't set off BP.
Yes it can. All it takes is a spark and static will spark.

[dondiego]

You should try to do it sometime. Can't do it. The spark doesn't have enough heat.

[dondiego]

My 55 brass rotor/drum got pretty dark green after I ran some BP through it and didn't clean it right away. We have high humidity here in the summer ..............out in the barn.

I have seen close up video of a guy clearly hitting grains of black powder repeatedly with the spark of static electricity. He couldn't get it to ignite. He touched same with a red hot wire and got smoke.

[Sensai]

I've seen the same video and it's amazing. I just keep going back to the fact that the manufacturers and transportation regs give special consideration to defeating ESD when black powder is concerned. They may well be in error, but I'm not going to risk it when I'm that close to that much powder. You can do your own risk analysis, it's just not worth taking chances to me.

[Dan Cash]

I know the Lyman 55 throws by volume. My main concern has to do with the shearing action on BP substitutes (Pyrodex RS). I understand BP has a tendency to ignite when it isn't wanted. Therefore the hazmat charge when shipping. Pyrodex RS seems to have no haxmat charges making me think the shearing action of a Lyman 55 would be no problem.

Your Lyman 55 is as safe as it gets when used with BP. The horror stories are Internet generated myth and superstition.

[Fly]

Man don't post something that is just not true.NEVER & I mean NEVER has there ever been a case
that static electric spark ever went off from a shooter in the field or other wise.It's statements
like this that keep people thinking about black powder as they do.

I handle more of it than most.I have done so much research on this I can't see straight.

Fly (sorry about the rant, but I could not help it)

[fouronesix]

It may have something to do with "amount" of static electricity or lawyers. So be it- I'm not worried one way or the other. I have three 55s. Two dedicated to smokeless. One dedicated to BP. I purchased the BP model simply because I got it on sale and for the same price as the regular models on sale. The nice feature of it is the large capacity, aluminum tube. The only differences I see are the larger capacity and the cast iron body has a thick, quality powder coating finish. The internals seem identical to the older Lyman and Ideal Models.

[mooman76]

Some manufactures are now putting BP in plastic containers. If it wasn't safe, they wouldn't be do that.

[Fly]

Some manufactures are now putting BP in plastic containers. If it wasn't safe, they wouldn't be do that.

See here we go again.Plastic creates more static then steel.If a stun gun with over 100000 volts can not set it off, you must ask WHY?
It is HEAT, Volts & amps are two different things.A stun gun will knock any man on his a$$.But will not burn him.If it did they
would never be used.My lord for give the people that do not know what they are talking about..
Fly

[fouronesix]

Exactly. Lots of volts and almost no amps = very low specific heat. Up the amperage a bit and fry/kaboom! Most folk's idea of static electricity is popping your finger on a ground in the winter after walking across a carpet. I guess it all depends on the amperage carried in the discharge. The arc across a spark plug I think is just an electro-mechanically concentrated static discharge with a bit more amperage. A lightning bolt is a very big concentrated static discharge with a ton of amps.

[Fly]

Exactly. Lots of volts and almost no amps = very low specific heat. Up the amperage a bit and fry/kaboom! Most folk's idea of static electricity is popping your finger on a ground in the winter after walking across a carpet. I guess it all depends on the amperage carried in the discharge. The arc across a spark plug I think is just an electro-mechanically concentrated static discharge with a bit more amperage. A lightning bolt is a very big concentrated static discharge with a ton of amps.

Thanks for your reply.It is also DC vs AC current.Tom Edison was in a war with Westhinghouse in selling electricity to the US.He wanted
DC & not AC.He said how much more the dangers were involved in AC because the heat in amps.So he invented the electric chair to prove his point.
Static is DC.I rest my case, the last I will say on this, subject from me.
Fly (Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

[7of7]

7of7

If this approach works for you with black powder I have to believe it will work for Pyrodex RS. Thanks. Could you provide more information on the Tapp Plastics containers. I Googled “Tapp Plastics” and found there page but couldn't find any containers that stood out as being the ones you use.

http://www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/plastic_containers/hinged_containers/233
These are the ones I use.
On the static electricity issue, I think it dates back to the incident onboard one of our battleships where powder ignited and blew up a turret. (since they use black powder)

[Sensai]

E=IR It's not just a good idea, it's the law. If you have a tremendous amount of voltage (E) then it can be converted to a tremendous amount of current (I) under the proper conditions of resistance (R). I work with electrostatic dissipative equipment every day, and know a little about static electricity. You can (Geeezzzzz) all you want, but you can't change the laws of physics. As I've already stated, you're free to do your own risk analysis and act accordingly. You may well be right in your assumption from empirical data that black powder can't be set off by static electricity. I am just not willing to take the chance when the results can be so catastrophic. By the way, it's been proven that static electric discharges are indeed AC. The DC charge is built up until the dielectric barrier is breeched, but then the current passes both ways for several cycles. Has lightning ever started a fire ? (Geeezzzzzz)

[Fly]

On the static electricity issue, I think it dates back to the incident onboard one of our battleships where powder ignited and blew up a turret. (since they use black powder) .No it was not static that caused that.I was a Gunners Mate in the Navy & I know it was from a hot ember from the previous shot.The powder charges
were in silk bags & loaded behind the shell.Each man had his job.

One was to clean the chamber before the next shot, was loaded.Remember these were kids, & in the course battle things happen.It happened more
than once.

If you have a tremendous amount of voltage (E) then it can be converted to a tremendous amount of current (I) under the proper conditions of resistance (R).

Well (ya)!But it takes some work.We are taking staic from your body here!Geeeeezzzz..

Fly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6PEdBcQ6s