why not flat noses

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not much of a cast rifle shooter. I mostly do handguns. I do do some big bore cast rifle shooting and fool a little with the 30s and 35s. Just looking at the group buy page and noticed a round nosed 30 and was curious why cast rifle shooters go to pointy or round nosed bullets vs flat nosed bullets. I realize they may be a little more slippery but do they acutally shoot that much better. i can get some pretty amazing long range accuracy out of a flat nosed bullet and its still a good hunting bullet. Ive shot one inch 100 yard groups with a plain jane 405 rcbs out of a lever gun. Are you guys actually getting that much more accuracy out of these pointed bullets and bore riding bullets. Is this something that only comes together when your using black powder? Or am i missing something? I am first and foremost a hunter and cant see working up loads for a gun that cant be used to hunt with. I guess theres some that dont hunt here and just shoot to shoot. Even when i fooled with bench rest shooting on a small time local level I basically went armed with a varmit gun and load. Couldnt see gearing up with a dedicated gun and load when i still outshot most of the guys there. Same with silloutte shooting I went with a hunting load in a revolver or rifle. So why bother with a round nosed bullet. If i want to hunt its going to be a flat nose and youd think if you wanted a long range steamline bullet youd go pointy.

[Bret4207]

I prefer a FN to a RN for hunting too, and in truth for 100 yard target I think a FN does fine. Some of the GB designs are basic copies of well proven designs. The Loverins for example often have RN, but they shoot great and given the right alloy are effective hunting designs. My preferred RN would be something more along the lines of a B+M nose or a 358009 or 311440.

[Blammer]

All I want is a FN for hunting.

RN are good for feeding in some of the old milsurp guns, some FN jam up.

[SharpsShooter]

Hmmm.......lets see.....round nosed boolits.........buffalo...........yep that covers it.


SS

[KCSO]

I shoot f/n bullets in 30 Rem, 30-40, 303, 762 Arg, 35 Rem, 45-70 and others. The shoot well enough that I am not afraid to use them for 200 yard targets. I also have moulds in RN and spire point and they all have thier place. I like the sp bullets for small edible game as there is less meat damage if I can't make the head shot. I shoot a lot of 31141's in different guns and they will shoot as close as you can hold. It doesn't bother me that the bullet might shoot 1 inch lower at 200 yards.

[Lloyd Smale]

I know they will kill a buffalo. I would be pretty stupid to comment otherwize. I just would like to know what advantage you see out of shooting them in your 4570 other then nostalgia.
Hmmm.......lets see.....round nosed boolits.........buffalo...........yep that covers it.


SS

[SharpsShooter]

Lloyd

I wasn’t being a smart-a$$. Here is my explanation. At longer ranges the flat nose boolit has perhaps one major disadvantage. It is the issue of aerodynamics of the flat nose vs. the round. The round nose has obvious advantages with regard to smooth airflow over the nose creating less turbulence that eventually disrupts the stability of the flat nosed boolit. You could argue that within the ranges most of us utilize the 45-70 to hunt the difference is negligible and I would agree. However when it comes to accuracy at distances of 300yds and beyond the flat nose will fail to equal or surpass the Postell or even the 457125. If it could , the long range BPCR shooters would be using it simply to reduce felt recoil if nothing else. My personal experience with regard to accuracy is that both can be made to shoot accurately as long as you keep in mind the design limitations.

Don’t discount the round nose for hunting. The last whitetail dfeer I shot with a 45-70 was with a 530gr 457125, backed by 55gr of Goex Cartridge. The distance was 125 steps and I put the shot just slightly behind the shoulder. The deer was spun 360* and knocked down. There were pieces of rib longer than you finger on the ground of the off-side.

SS

[Newtire]

In an auto rifle like MY M-1 carbine a flat nose just won't feed. Others have had better luck.

[Dale53]

When using round nose bullets in the 45/70 for hunting, the hardness is critical (particularly at black powder velocities). I have a couple of serious big game hunting friends that hunt almost exclusively with black powder cartridge rifles (deer, elk, moose, buffalo and the big bears). They are also award winning long range BPCR competitors. They tell me that their bullets for hunting are apt to be 50-1 lead/tin.

I personally have loaded the 457125 for a friend to buffalo hunt with. He shot his buffalo low, just behind the shoulder, took one rib out going in and one coming out. The bullet was found just under the hide on the far side. It was a classic text book mushroom. The buffalo, a large bull, went down at the shot, got back up, staggered 4-5 steps and hit the dirt for good. That bullet was driven with a heavy duplex load (smokeless primer and black powder main charge) in a 45/70 loaded to 45/90 ballistics. The bullet was 30-1 lead/tin. It certainly worked and worked well. The range was 125 yards. The bullet took out the aorta and both lungs.

One experience is hardly enough to be scientifically correct but it sure was indicative that something was right[smilie=1:.

On the other hand, I had another friend who shot a deer with the exact same bullet (from the same mould) that was hard cast. The first shot was a bit far back. He trailed that deer, after shooting it twice again, for over a mile in deep snow. The bullets just pencilled through and showed NO expansion whatsoever. Round noses NEED to expand. Flat noses do a much better job if they don't expand. This friend wanted to use hard bullets simply because he had some on hand. He was really too cheap to soften with "expensive" soft lead he had on hand. He is now a convert to soft bullets for hunting.

My deer have all been killed with Keith 250 gr bullets from a .44 mag revolver and they probably didn't expand at all. However, the flat meplat did a credible job on all of them (full penetration with a moderately large wound channel). I never have recovered a bullet from a deer.

My choice would ALWAYS be a flat nose bullet for hunting. Keep in mind, of course, that shot placement is paramount. Shot placement is paramount. Shot placement is paramount...

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Lloyd, this is not the first time one of your post texts makes me think you might be a long-lost twin brother. My hobby rationale for reloading and casting was summed up nicely in your first post.

I would have to choose "ranging ability" as the chief advantage a spitzer or round nose design has over the flat nose. I had the difference illustrated for me in the 243 by shooting both the RCBS 95 grain spitzer and some samples of #245496 (RN Loverin 85 grain) in my Rem 788. Same load (12.0 x 2400), same sight setting.......at 50 yards, grouping with the RCBS was roughly 5/8" higher. At 100 yards, the Lyman dropped almost 1-1/2". At 150 yards, the difference was over 2". Both bullets were very close in accuracy, and sight settings could take up the slack--but the Lyman was slowing at a faster rate than the RCBS was, obviously. The same test with the same load (12.0 x 2400) in the 250 Savage using NEI #20 (100 grain RG-4 spire point duplicator in 25 caliber) hit consistently higher than Lyman #257312. Since all these loads are rat strafers, stopping power isn't an issue--but all loads flatten ground squirrels and jackrabbits with authority to 150 yards, and I don't see a marked difference between pointy-boolit and flat-nose results downrange........THWOCK/flop. DRT.

Different story with larger calibers intended for venison-making. Flat noses prevail here, a 70% meplat on the 9.3mm--round flat nose on the 44-40, about 60% meplat.......and Keith/Thompson/SWC's in the magnum revolvers.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess i kind of look at long range trajectory differnt then some. Ive been shooting long range sixguns for a while now and a load that shoots 4 or 5 inches flatter at 300 yards doesnt mean squat to me. A gun like a six gun or even a 4570 is going to have alot of drop at that range anyway and your never going to hit something at 300 yards with your gun sighted a 100 anyway. You need to shoot and learn your guns trajectory and compensate. So it doesnt matter to me if i have to hold 4 inches high or 8 inches high or hold a tiny bit of front blade or a tiny bit more front blade. Ive watched guys put a real hurt on rocks at a 1000 yards with 4570s using bulelts like the 405 and 500 rcbs rfs. and the lyman round flats and even have done a lttle myself. I do know that in handguns theres certainly no advantage to shooting a round nosed bullet over a good keith or lfn at long range. If anything the keiths and lfns outshoot the round nosed bullets at range. The 45s can probably get by with a soft nosed round nose for hunting. they have enough bullet mass. I guess the gist of this post was that im curious why guys go gaga over 30 cal bullets that are round nosed. Im sure someone will pipe up and say theyve worked for them for hunting. But i wouldnt dream of hunting with a 30 cal round nose or spitzer even cast out of pure for anything bigger then 50 lbs. Ive killed a few animals with .30 cal cast flat nosed bullets and was never impressed. I allways saw a markable increase in hitting power with 35 cal bullets and even then its going to have a flat nose. Another thing a flat nose bullet has hands down over a round nose or spitzer in any caliber is the ablity to penetrate straigher through an animal. Round nosed bullets are some of the worse at doing that.

[SharpsShooter]

Lloyd,

It is an interesting thread you have started. I know you intended it to be geared more toward the thirty calibers and the like, but we wandered into both handgun usage and BPCR and that is fine. It just makes the conversation more rounded and informative I think.:-D

I like the concept of developing one load that is suitable for both hunting and all around usage. It simplifies life greatly and is a very efficient approach to gain a satisfactory end result.

Regarding handgun velocities, I too like the Keith SWC and it is all I use in my 45LC. Given that it weighs 260gr, I feel sure that the flat meplat will aid in the transfer of ballistic energy to whatever critter I use it on. I haven’t had opportunity to test that yet as I am having the cylinder throats reamed and it won’t make it for this fall’s season.

But getting back to the rifles, why would a soft, round nosed boolit cast of 20:1 or softer, driven to 1700fps (GC Design 30-40Krag) not work? Certainly it is soft enough to expand at those velocities. My ballistics software says that a 45 LC 260gr boolit launched at 1150fps had 576 FT-LBS of energy once it gets to 100yds. In comparison, a 208gr Lyman 311299 out of my Krag will still have a shade over 1200ft-lbs of energy at the same distance. That is more than double the striking energy at the same distance. I have a great deal of respect for actual field results as opposed to computerized conjecture, but given those numbers, I’d have to say that in this particular instance you could not tell the difference. Both would work well in my opinion. The wide frontal area of the SWC would compensate for its lack of energy by aiding in transfer of that energy to the game animal. The soft, higher velocity boolit will expand also, possibly violently, but nonetheless it will create a wound channel of equal or greater proportion and deliver bonus energy at the same time.

The distrust of those round or pointy 30 calibers is well founded. When cast of hard alloys or quenched to get the same result, basically a FMJ is created. Sure you can drive them to high velocities but if used on game, they will either shatter on striking bone or it will punch small holes through with very little transfer of energy, making them a poor choice.

Just my thoughts on it………….good topic.


SS

[Lloyd Smale]

SS im not disagreeing with you. A soft cast 30 would no doubt expand and kill but i think most of the bullets guys are using in the 30s at those speeds are hard cast. My point in all of this i guess is why even bother with a round nosed bullet when a flat nosed bullet out of any alloy is going to work better on game and can be made to shoot well at long distance too. I guess i just was curious as its seems like alot of guys on here like the round nosed bullets in there 30s and 35s and i just never could figure a logical reason why. But like ive said on here many times im a handgun shooter first and foremost and dont understand every aspect of rifle cast shooting and will freely admit that. I was just wondering if im missing something

[SharpsShooter]

Heck, no disagreement at all, just good exchange of information and experiences. I should have mentioned that a flat nose will not feed in my Krag and I am sure that is a decision factor for many. I don't think you are missing a thing. When it comes to handgun veocities, I agree about the use of FN boolits. It maximizes the transfer of energy to the game animal and is likely the most accurate choice as well. Shooting round nose cast at rifle velocities allows us to use the excess energy to make the boolit function as needed.

Primarily I am sure it is a feed issue for most when used in a bolt action or like. I do have a 311407 that has a small meplat that I might have to try to see if they feed and shoot well.


SS

[Lloyd Smale]

now theres a good reason i didnt take into account. If it wont feed it aint much good.
Heck, no disagreement at all, just good exchange of information and experiences. I should have mentioned that a flat nose will not feed in my Krag and I am sure that is a decision factor for many. I don't think you are missing a thing. When it comes to handgun veocities, I agree about the use of FN boolits. It maximizes the transfer of energy to the game animal and is likely the most accurate choice as well. Shooting round nose cast at rifle velocities allows us to use the excess energy to make the boolit function as needed.

Primarily I am sure it is a feed issue for most when used in a bolt action or like. I do have a 311407 that has a small meplat that I might have to try to see if they feed and shoot well.


SS

[MT Gianni]

Lloyd, most of the rn use is for paper punching, with reliable feed isssues and timed fire events. Most hunt with a fn or alloy soft enough for expansion. Gianni

[PPpastordon]

Actually, to me, this sounds more like a small bore higher velocity versus a big bore less velocity hunting bullet discussion. I will take the big bore any time. These boolit's terminal ballistics (results) are consistently more effective when hunting - uh, IMHO, that is!

[Pilgrim]

We've all been suckered by armchair theorists and typewriter hunters. I'm in my early 60's now and remember all the crap published in the various books and shooting magazines 30 - 40 years ago. If you check the ballistics of a boat tail bullet vs. flat base, you'll see that until you are well beyond 300 yards, the difference simply doesn't amount to squat. Similarly the spitzer vs. RN or FN doesn't start to matter till well beyond 200 yards for all practical purposes. The difference between +/- 2" additional drop simply isn't real unless you are shooting off of bags, off of a solid bench, with a rifle capable of 1" or less groups at 200 yards. The bottom line is for a hunter shooting at 250 yards or less, the FN cast boolit is more likely better all around in both accuracy and for sure bullet effect on game. If you are shooting beyond that, I'd recommend you invest in FLGCs driven out of a long barreled magnum as fast as you safely can drive them. The only way I'd recommend a CB at those ranges would be off of a bench, with laser ranged targets, and a rifle/load that has been proven accurate with known ballistics. No way do I want to wound a critter. Been there, done that, and it was well within 200 yards (BIG whitetail buck, bolt action .270, 130 FLGC, scoped rifle, moving deer). We trailed & tracked that critter for more than 4 hours and never recovered that buck. Reconstruction of the event revealed that it wasn't a lethal hit (I creased the brisket), but it's bothered me for 40 years now. It simply isn't going to happen again from this old man. I hope it never happens to one of the fine folks on this board either. FWIW Pilgrim

[Bret4207]

Stalk up to within 50-75 yards in the first place. Around here it's Joe 4 Wheeler and his 313 Superwhizbangmagnum with the 11x47X scope thats feeding the coyotes all fall. Then the 'yotes turn to my sheep after hunting season. A soft cast (WW) 150-250 gr boolit at 1500-2500 fps should do the job at under 100yards in RN or FN given proper shot placement.