New and Clueless

[hagel]

Folks, I'm new here. This is my first post. I'm sorta disabled and I'm trying to put together a bullet casting business so I can keep a roof over mine and the Wife's heads and a little food in our bellies. I'm not looking to get rich. The people at Magma Engineering have been real helpful and I'll be using some of their equipment. Some of the boys at OU's Mechanical Engineering Dept. are going to help me automate some of the equipment so that I don't have to sprout several more hands to work it all. The women at the BVR are being real helpful even though I want to make bullets which they really don't understand at all.

Rotometals is trying to be as helpful as they can be but they are located in California so the delivered price they can give me on hardball is pretty steep. I don't think that's their fault but more a function of the distance from there to here. I used to drive a semi so I know how expensive it is to ship stuff especially in an LTL situation. Now I'm completely new to this and it just might be that they have the best deal in town by a long shot. Honestly I don't really know and I do appreciate them taking the time to help me even though I don't really know squat yet about commercial bullet casting.

I'm located in Athens Ohio (look at a map-we're kinda rural around here). I know that most of the lead in the country is mined in SE Missouri. That's a lot closer to where I live than California. I called a couple of the places the Missouri Dept of Development gave me the info on but they didn't seem to want to deal with anyone who wasn't wanting to buy less than a truck load.

Obviously those of you who are running small bullet casting businesses have figured this out and have come up with the best way to deal with getting lead. By lead I mean about 1500 lbs of hardball a week. So if any of you can give me some advice I sure would appreciate it.

[Tatume]

There might be some useful information here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?206488-At-what-point-do-you-need-an-FFL

Before you invest any more money I suggest you get first hand information from these folks:

http://www.atf.gov/

Take care, Tom

[hagel]

Tom, I have my BATF app packet laying on the coffee table. I know I need to get a class 6 license. I asked them some questions and got an email from someone in Columbus. It seemed to me that he knew what he was talking about. He said that most of the stuff I need to know will be cleared up in the interview part of the application process. Damn, I sure hope there ain't a body cavity search part of the application process. I haven't dealt with the BATF except for the Insta check thing the gun store does when I buy something from them.

[gunoil]

BATFE were real nice when i got a C&R license. Glad your here at forum and give us some pics when your project is going. I have 2 magma stars, one for coated and other for pretty blue ring boolits. I have ran coated bullets thru but waiting on a few parts for other star backordered. Good luck, i just cast for me and family.

[dverna]

You will need an ITAR - over $2000 - along with the other stuff you are working on.

I bought a ton of 92/6/2 from Mayco and I saved $1800 (Delivered to me in MI) over what Rotometals quoted. Rotometals is NOT for high volume users - they cater to hobbyists.

http://www.maycoindustries.com/alloys.htm

Unless you have done a lot of casting and are mechanically inclined you have taken on quite a task. My advice is to have a reserve of at least $25,000 over and above what you think you will need for equipment/inventory/accessories/wiring/ventilation/etc. That is the bare minimum. It will not take much to tie up $10k in bullet/alloy inventory. Plus YOU WILL lose money for the first year until you grow a customer base.

Lastly, everything about bullets is heavy. If you have a physical disability, this may not be the best way to earn a living.

Forget about what YOU shoot. You need to know what your market is. Cowboy Action shooters are the easiest as they do not need accurate bullets. The other end is Bullseye shooters who need 50 yard accuracy of under 3". ALL shooters are cheap. You need to priced below what other commercial casters are charging to attract business; or provide better delivery (but better delivery means investing in more inventory); or provide better quality (and most will not pay for better quality - the cheap factor).

I did a bullet study on a few commercial bullet casters a few years ago. Get 50-100 each of different bullet styles/weights/calibers and check weights. Look at the extreme spread and Standard Deviation. That will tell you a lot about the consistency you need to match. BTW - Dardas Bullets (MI) performed very well in my tests FWIW.

Good luck.

[HATCH]

Don't buy it from Rotometals.
I buy 95/2.5/2.5 for $1.07 a pound shipped but the foundry is less then 500 miles from me.

[hagel]

Hatch, what foundry is it that you buy from?

Just so you all know here's what I'm planning on in the way of equipment:

3 automated Master Casters
1 automated Star luber
1 automated gas check punch
master pot
10 different molds (for starters)

I'm also getting a small mill, tig welder, enough sheet metal tools to make an over the pots exhaust system with a heat exchanger so I don't throw away all that expensive heat in the winter, DVR camera security system, digital macro camera with ring flash, some quality control equipment and more stuff. I need to upgrade the power supply to the garage and put in a fire suppression system too.

I appreciate your concern about my disability but it is a weird disease. The common name for it is "Stiff Man Syndrome". It makes me stiff as a board. I can't hardly turn my head to the side at all and my rib cage and spine don't flex anymore. I can do stuff right in front of me though and moving weight around is good therapy for me.

[Thompsoncustom]

I would think you could get a good deal on this since it's in OH

2500lbs
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=6424829&convertTo=USD

[hagel]

I sure do appreciate that tip on the stuff a Lockbourne. It says it might have .25% copper in it though. Do any of you know if that would cause a problem? Also I have never bid on anything from this outfit. I didn't see anything other than an amount I was willing to bid. Do any of you know if they will interpert my bid as being for the whole lot? I sure would hate to offer them $1500 and then have them tell me I owed them that much for each ingot. That'd suck pretty badly.

[hagel]

Thanks for that tip on Mayco. I sure will contact hem for a quote. Also, I'm kinda confused about that ITAR thing. I'm not planning on exporting anything. In fact I'm hoping to sell pretty much everything I make within a 50 mile radius except for maybe going to some Cowboy Action meets, gun shows and stuff like that.

[Thompsoncustom]

lol I've never bought lead online but I'm sure someone has bought from them, I just seen that deal and thought if I only lived in OHIO. looking at it I think that your bid is for 2500lbs and I am not a alloy master I just cast whatever I have but I'm sure someone on here can tell you more about that. Maybe give them a call they have more the one lot of 2500lbs so maybe you could get a great deal on 10k or whatever it is you want.

[Tatume]

The ITAR threw me, so I looked it up. Wow!

http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/2012/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

[hagel]

Holy ****! That's about as clear as mud. Do any of you guys who are already in the business have an english language translation of that ITAR stuff?

[hagel]

Thanks for the tip. I just registered for becoming a bidder. I should get an email soon to activate my account so I can bid on it.

[dverna]

You need the ITAR even if you do not export. It it has forced backyard casters out of business. Which is good for you!!! I will not cast bullets and sell them or barter them. I suspect quite a few casters who sell bullets do not comply. If the feds decide to crack down it will wind up being an expensive lesson.

Don Verna

[dbosman]

The best advice I can give you is to go over the paper work several times.
Then pay an attorney to give you their written opinion on the licenses involved.
....Several people here are already in business and can offer advice. The ones staying in business paid their attorney already.
Pay the same attorney to review your incorporation papers.
Pay attention to the political climate locally and nationally.

Good luck and good casting.

[OnceFired]

Hagel

I got a quote from Mayco on a truckload of big lead ingots. At 44,000lbs you're looking at roughly $1.69 / lb. That included shipping from their zip code to mine, and I'm in Missouri.

For smaller loads, you'd do well to contact Missouri Bullet Company. They offer lead currently at $2.07 per pound, in 66lb lots. They have a waiting list for their bullets, but you can buy as much lead from them as you want without a wait. Not sure how that compares to Rotometals etc. That is casting alloy percentages, btw.

I can help with GovLiquidation info. I just went through their process recently, myself.

OnceFired

[hagel]

Sure is a good price on that truckload. I may get to the point where I can afford to buy that much someday but I don't know when that will be. If that $2.07/lb price includes shipping then that beats the **** out of Rotometals bid for 1350 lbs delivered to a freight terminal that's a 4 hour drive (one way) from my place.

Just put a bid in on some lead with the Gov. Guess I'll maybe learn something from that.

[dbosman]

You might want to give these companies a call. They are supposed to be non-ferous refiners. If they aren't, they may be able to point you at an in state source.

Ferromet Corporation
2528 Medina Road, Medina OH 44256

Grandview Materials
1200 Chambers Road # 205, Columbus OH 43212-1703

[dbosman]

Since you're a candidate for the Gov. Liquidation auctions, if you find out what the following sentences mean, please let us know.

Title to the material does not pass to the buyer until the scrap has been mutilated. Buyer agrees to allow USG personnel to witness destruction.

[BBQJOE]

I don't know from starting a bullet company, But I do know one thing first hand from starting a rather successful small business, and that is this: After you have done your homework, and added up every single thing you think you'll need, and are certain you have a a solid figure, double it, or maybe even triple it.
There will be folks coming out of the woodwork with their palms open needing you to put something in them. You'll be scratching your head, going who the hell are you? I didn't even think about you! You'll still have to part with cash.
On top of that, expensive things can break unexpectedly, and still leave you paying lots of money to get them fixed even if they're under warranty.
Good luck to you.
I liked being in small business, but after 8 years, I'm tired of it, and don't see a way out.
You think you'll be able to have like 8 hour days. Forget it! Small biz ownership will have you seeing 12-18 hour days, and you're the last one to get paid, and it might not be for years.

[felix]

You got that right! My brother started in his basement in 1985. He went 20 years with barely enough money from savings and proceeds from the business to live in a bank-loaned house with six children and wife. He got to the point of borrowing from banks for business, slowly at first, and with accelerated rates as time went by as credit was gained. Yes, we are talking up to 1.5M loans eventually, including govt backed small business types with high fixed rates for the time! But, that was needed to keep advancing with the competition. He paid back each loan on schedule with fervor. Finally, after of no sleep during the 20 years of expanding and consolidation, his business took off in great fashion. His company has 100 employees now, grossing approx 1M per month. He passed away exhausted and at 64 years old with cancer. His wife and children own the company entirely with NO debt. ... felix

[BBQJOE]

One more thing I might add. If you have the money to start a small business, take that money and learn to live within your means, because you won't see any profit for a long time to come. Unless you are the one in a million business that we all think we are when we start.
I don't mean to be a downer, but you said it yourself. Clueless.
That is no way to go into business. Unless you are guaranteed a miracle.

[hagel]

Well, I do have one thing going for me, a little three store chain is willing to stock their shelves with my stuff. That's a pretty good customer to start with.

[popper]

Success in a small manufacturing co., assuming you have the capital(4x) what you think, is all about marketing! You must have a production/sales plan for the first 5 years. SBA used to say 7 years was the break even point. If you have the capital to finance the type of operation you are planning, it may be more profitable to buy into a fooled franchise.

[hagel]

Yep, I used to sell insurance and I learned that finding customers is really where it's at. I had to stop selling insurance because I finally figured out what a damn ripoff it was and I just couldn't do that to people. Besides the 3 store chain that is willing to stock my stuff there are another 200 FFL holders within 50 miles of me. I'll start on them as soon as I get my production to the point where I'm meeting the needs of my first customer. I figure that those 200 FFL holders know most of the serious shooters/reloaders in the area. It would be nice if there were more Cowboy Action shooters in my area but there really aren't. I don't know if any of the Cop shops in my neck of the woods reload but I'll sure find out. Also, after I get the pistol bullets and the lead bullets for 30, 375, and 45 low velocity rifle bullets down I'm going to start doing gas checked bullets. Thinking about getting into some plated bullets too at some point. Anybody got any thoughts on that plan?

[pipehand]

I remember when it was not necessary to have a Type 06 if all you did was sell bullets, and not loaded ammo. Then, through bureaucratic edict, bullets, and components were "redefined" to be ammunition. Keep in mind, this is not "Law", but regulation that has the force of law, but is not "Passed" through our elected representatives.

Same with ITAR. Some bureaucrat decided to stretch an already stretched definition to increase the scope of enforcement, to further make the case for more funding, and more power etc. This is the same gov't. that gives the Muslim Brotherhood fighter jets, but wants to keep us from trading Cowboy Action Round Flatnose boolits that don't meet the Hague Convention's criteria for lawful use in warfare.

Good luck to you Hagel. You're gonna need it.

[rockrat]

dbosman---I believe it means that you don't own it until you damage it to a point where it cannot be used as was intended in its origional form. He could probably take a chain saw and cut an ingot in half and be OK. Or possibly put a large groove in it or cut a chunk out of it.

It other words, till someone in the bureacratic chain says it is mutilated, its still thier property, even though you paid for it already.

[Echo]

I would think you could get a good deal on this since it's in OH

2500lbs
http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=6424829&convertTo=USD

Hmmm - that looks like ONE ingot, weighing ~2500 lbs. Too big for my Dutch Oven...

[hagel]

Well, looks like I didn't win any of the closed bid auctions for the lead the Gov was selling off. At least I don't have any invoices in my account. I have never tried to buy anything from them before so I really don't know exactly how it works.

Do any of you know what happens when an auction that you are bidding on closes? Do they send you any info about what the item you were bidding on actually sold for? For that matter do they tell you anything?

[OnceFired]

They send you an invoice if you won, and nothing if you don't.

Depending on what you're buying, you may need an End Use Certificate such as is needed for once fired brass. It basically is a background check as well as a promise that you won't export, etc.

You are also entirely responsible for picking up the product within a set timeframe once you have paid. It is quick, and if you're looking at 2,500 lbs of lead, you best have the equipment to load it into whatever truck you're using. Often there are restrictions on the means that items can be loaded, depending on the facilities of the location you bought from.

OnceFired

[hagel]

I really appreciate that info. I was planning on renting a heavy trailer and towing it with my little 4 cylinder Ford Ranger to do the pickup. I can put about 490 lbs in the truck and then run the trailer jack down on top of a bathroom scale to make sure that I load the trailer with about 250 lbs of tongue weight and then I'm off to the races. This wouldn't work for any of you folks that live near civilization but I can drive 55 all the way home with a load like that and while I'll piss off a few people no one is going to shoot at me or run over me.

Armed as I am now with the info you just provided I think maybe I should stop by there before the next time they have a load of lead and see if I can find someone there who can tell me what they expect to see happen if I did win the bid on a 2500 lbs batch of lead.

[scb]

I work at an ITAR facility. Frankly I don't know if it's even possible, or if you would want this in your home if that was your idea. We have biometric locks on all the doors. The doors must be locked at all times. Video surveillance, and not just 1 or 2 cameras on a VHS loop. Any and all visitors to the premises must prove that they are US citizens and you must make a photo ID for them while on the premises which they must surrender when they leave, and you have to keep a log of all this activity. This is only a small part of what is required. If you must be ITAR certified, and this were me, I would stop what I was doing right now and find out exactly what I was getting into. Sorry.

[Nickle]

Hagel, I hope this works out for you. I'm a Type 06 FFL, I manufacture ammo.

I'll give you some pretty decent advice.

Find a decent ATF agent that's in your area. Talk to them, and listen closely. A good one wants you to succeed.

As to a lawyer, my advice is don't get a lawyer. Ny local ATF agent also told me as much. Now, I knew a lawyer just simply doesn't know this area. But, my ATF agent mentioned something that folks just don't consider.

The lawyer doesn't know, and also won't admit it, then gives you horrible advice, while still charging you. Not good.

By the way, I'm obviously not a lawyer. I am, however, a qualified paralegal, even though my specialty is an obscure area of criminal law. Not what I normally did for a trade, but something I did for a while, and I was smart enough to have stayed current up until my retirement.

And, I can say that they just don't know. Better to get advice from someone that does. Then have them back themselves up with links to the online regulations/statutes. Then read them.

By the way, ITAR is mandatory and is $2250 per year, even if you don't export. The ATF doesn't manage it, but they do make sure you follow it. The program is run by DDTC, which is a branch of the Secretary of State's office.

[hagel]

Nickle, I sure do appreciate the advice. Trust me, I'll be back for more too. I've been around long enough to understand that there is no substitute for the experience of an interested individual such as yourself. I suppose if I knew a Lawyer who had a class 6 and made ammo or at least bullets commercially I might trust them. Maybe. I've been burnt by Lawyers who claimed to know more than they actually did before. Not really interested in going down that road again.

Making ammo. Now that's interesting. I reload for myself and I have considered making some ammo at some point to sell. The bullets come first though. If I do get into ammo I'll look for something that is rare enough that the major companies aren't really that interested in it due to insufficient sales quantities to meet their production models. Anyhow, that's a long way down the road.

I'm curious though. What is the nature of your business? Do you focus on supplying the local market or do you sell over the net?

[Nickle]

Nickle, I sure do appreciate the advice. Trust me, I'll be back for more too. I've been around long enough to understand that there is no substitute for the experience of an interested individual such as yourself. I suppose if I knew a Lawyer who had a class 6 and made ammo or at least bullets commercially I might trust them. Maybe. I've been burnt by Lawyers who claimed to know more than they actually did before. Not really interested in going down that road again.

Best advice I can offer is to ask me, though I'm no expert. That said, I find the facts on an appropriate website. Burlington, VT ATF office is pretty good. 2 ladies there that know their stuff, but also admit they aren't perfect.


Making ammo. Now that's interesting. I reload for myself and I have considered making some ammo at some point to sell. The bullets come first though. If I do get into ammo I'll look for something that is rare enough that the major companies aren't really that interested in it due to insufficient sales quantities to meet their production models. Anyhow, that's a long way down the road.

If you can keep your prices competitive, and stay in stock, there's money to be made on even some of the common calibers. Especially when there's a shortage. That's what motivated me to get into swaging. I simply couldn't obtain .224 and .355 jacketed bullets, and therefore lost some sales. And, at a time when I could have sold all I could make. I did load what I could find bullets for.

There's a niche in loading the older stuff, the things I call "unobtanium". Basically stuff that can't be had elsewhere.


I'm curious though. What is the nature of your business? Do you focus on supplying the local market or do you sell over the net?

Ammunition manufacture. Retail an wholesale. For now just at gun shows, and by word of mouth. After we ramp back up, we get it out there online. Kind of in limbo at the moment, as I've been pretty well laid up for the past few months. Elective surgery to fix an old problem that got worse.

[hagel]

OK, learning all kinds of things about starting a bullet casting business. Thanks again to all of you who have helped me so far on this little project. Just ran into another hurdle. I called a local Insurance Agent to get a quote on liability insurance for the business. I figured it wouldn't be too bad. I will be whole selling my stuff to FFL holders who will be selling it to end users (re-loaders) who have invested considerable time and money in learning how and equipping themselves to reload their own ammo. There won't be any customers on site - I'll be either delivering or shipping my stuff. I am going to install a 24/7 four camera security systems and a sprinkler system in the shop. Not much liability here really.

Boy was I wrong. The response I got from the girl who called me from the Insurance company was something like this: We can't get anyone to insure scum like you (we know you're scum because you have actually touched some of that EVIL NASTY AMMUNITION stuff and you have the unmitigated gall to want to manufacture bullets that the next lunatic who wants to shoot up a school/theater/political rally - pick one - is just sitting in his basement waiting for you to sell him some 44-40 or 45-70 lumps so he can load up his evil assault rifle and get on with his killing spree) unless of course you are willing to cough up $10,000 an year. You give us that much money and we're good with whatever you want to do (Oh, just mail us the check though - we really don't want you to set foot in our office).

Some of you guys have probably been down this road before and have found somebody in the insurance business who hasn't lost all their marbles. Well, I would appreciate it if you could tell me how you have dealt with this and most importantly some Company who insures these kinds of business.

[Wayne Smith]

How many FFL holders are within reach?? Call one of them and ask who insures them. At least you are likely to get a local reference.

[hagel]

Never thought of that. Guess I just think of gun shops as the fun alternative to WalMart. I just figured making bullets was like any sort of manufacturing except for all the extra taxes.

Thanks

[scb]

Back when I was doing gun work for a living the NRA offered insurance for gun shops. I don't know if they still do or not.

[dbosman]

Insurance is a commodity. Liability insurance is a known commodity for corporations.
Lots and lots and many more lots of companies sell it.
Small agencies can't deal with your request. They don't know what's involved and it's easier for them to make stuff up than do the research for your needs. You need a specialist in corporate insurance.

Also, consider that if your corporation is set up properly (air tight) you won't necessarily have to have liability insurance. It may be far less expensive to self insure. (Bankruptcy if a serious liability arises)
A new gun would cost less than a year of coverage.

[hagel]

OK, now that's what I was thinking both about it being simple and cheap. You must be right about them just not doing their job. Fortunately one of the members on the list referred me to another list member who cast and sells and he is supposed to get back to me with the real story.


Insurance is a commodity. Liability insurance is a known commodity for corporations.
Lots and lots and many more lots of companies sell it.
Small agencies can't deal with your request. They don't know what's involved and it's easier for them to make stuff up than do the research for your needs. You need a specialist in corporate insurance.

Also, consider that if your corporation is set up properly (air tight) you won't necessarily have to have liability insurance. It may be far less expensive to self insure. (Bankruptcy if a serious liability arises)
A new gun would cost less than a year of coverage.

[Rotometals]

We would be $1.62 this week for this same thing ,
RotoMetals-

[hagel]

$1.62/lb? OK, now you're starting to make more sense. Here's the thing though, I'm not up and running yet. I should get my first machine by the end of this month. It will be several months before I have all three casters installed, automated and running. Once I hit full production I should be burning about 1350 lb/wk. That of course is assuming I can sell the bullets that turns into.

I just got my grant approved on Tuesday and I had my first meeting with the engineers on Wednesday. The ball is rolling now.

[Uptickk]

hagel, glad to hear things are getting off the ground. Keep us posted on how things are going if you don't mind.

[hagel]

OK, not much time right now. Damn busy.

THe ME students are finishing up their initial round of experiments to determine the forces needed to operate the MC. They have a basic design and should be ordering the air cylinders and associated parts soon. I have a second MC on order. It will be coming in with a >240 and .340 round ball mold. The hope here is that I can use it to make useable #4 and 00 buck as the gun store chain I will sell to has expressed an interest in these. I am working on the upgrades to the building I will be operating out of. Damn time consuming. And then there is the paperwork. Lots of that. Getting lots of good advice and assistance from people both locally and on this list. There are a lot of good folks out there rooting for me.

[Uptickk]

Thanks for the update!

[hagel]

Hey, I have a question for you guys. The local gun store who has agreed to buy from me has expressed an interest in 00 and #4 buck. You can't drop that stuff because it's too big (I don't think you can drop anything over 5 shot without building a shot tower). Now Magma has .240 and .340 round ball molds for the MC. Those are close enough to the right sizes to probably work for #4 and 00 (Eric at Magma tells me that the .340 probably runs a little small as the cherry wears when they are making them). This is kind of attractive to me because you can make shot out of just about anything that will cast and I can run an automated MC pretty fast since the amount of lead you're dripping for these is pretty small.

Have any of you cast shot like this? If so, how did it work out?

[hagel]

Sort of a big day today. First the milling machine I ordered Christmas day that was supposed to be delivered in 1-3 months showed up. Fortunately the guy was driving a day cab pulling a pup with a lift gate. We were able to back my truck up to his with the tail gate down and then lower the lift gate with the mill on it down to just touching my tail gate. The two of us then bulled it into my truck. Now my little Ranger is sitting in the garage with a fully assembled, 750 lb milling machine in the back of it. There's no way I can get it out of there without taking a lot of weight off it, especially up high. After that I have a small ramp and a pneumatic tired dolly. If I can get the chunks down to about 400 lbs then the wife and I should be able to manage it. As far as re-assembly goes....well I always wanted an excuse to get a shop crane.

So, have any of you guys ever had to disassemble one of Harbor Freight's $1200 milling machines into human manageable chunks without screwing it up? Sure hope so. Right now I can figure out how to un-wire the motor and pull it off but that won't do much.

The second thing that happened today is that my FFL showed up. I sure didn't expect that to happen so fast. Seriously, the whole deal was a real breeze. After all the **** I'd heard about how long it took to get your license I figured it would take at least 2-4 more months. By then I should have enough electricity in my shop and working casting machines. Kinda cool to have it though. Sure glad I spent yesterday taking down some of the trees I had to remove before getting my new power drop in. Just one more tree to go and then I can get the electrician in so we can figure out just how we're going to pull off the prep for AEP to do their thing.