Bullet Engaging Rifling Question.

[BIGRED]

I loaded up some RCBS200FN's for my marlin 336 35remmy. they were pretty accurate at 50 yards and there was noticeably more recoil than with my 200gr Corelokts. i loaded 35gr of IMR4895, i do not know velocity yet because i wasn't worried about speed quite yet.
MY question is i noticed closing the bolt was tighter than normal. so i pulled out the cartridge and the bullet is engaging the rifling even though it is seated much shorter than my normal J loads. OAL 2.41" the Barrel slugged out to .3580" and the bullets are sized to
.3595 at the gas check (with check installed)
.3585 1st & 2nd band
.3590 band after crimp groove
.3510 in front of the last band
it is engaging about.150" into rifling (not OK for me in a Lever action)

please advise what i can do? i really like this bullet (has to be the top choice out there) but i need it to close with very little force.
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o641/demersii/IMG_20130730_201047377_HDR_zps49109313.jpg (http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/demersii/media/IMG_20130730_201047377_HDR_zps49109313.jpg.html)
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o641/demersii/IMG_20130730_200907002_zpsb12e1bc7.jpg (http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/demersii/media/IMG_20130730_200907002_zpsb12e1bc7.jpg.html)

[popper]

Only a problem if it won't extract a live round or you have to double pump to get it to chamber. Might try changing alloy or casting temp a bit to get them smaller. That is a LOT of crimp.

[Maximumbob54]

I had the same problem when I went to a harder alloy. It went away when I went back to a softer alloy. I now make sure I trim the brass to the minimum before each loading even if it isn't beyond max length. Some of them still show the slightest marks but it's no longer showing the Marlin Micro Groove boogy:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/IMG_20130705_084747_285_zpsc4f99fe1.jpg (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/IMG_20130705_084747_285_zpsc4f99fe1.jpg.html)

[RickinTN]

I have been working with the NOE copy of the same bullet in my 35 remington Marlin 336's. Marlin rifles, at least mine, have a short throat relative to other rifles I've worked with. It appears most of the resistance on chambering is coming from the front band being "swaged" into the leade instead of the rifling engagement. Although it is difficult to give an exact dimension from the pictures my guess is that your are swaging approximately the front .020" of the front driving band. Try seating the bullets about .020" deeper (shorter) and don't crimp to see if this helps your difficulty in chambering. If you want to crimp your loads simply trim your cases another .020" or whatever length you find avoids swaging the front driving band into the leade. And yes, I agree this bullet would be the first choice for many 35 Remington shooters. Many times I will seat a bullet to a longer than desired OAL and not crimp, chamber the round and let the rifle finish seating the bullet on lever closing. This will give an idea of the OAL the rifle likes.
Good Luck,
Rick

[BIGRED]

They are water cooled WW. i shot them into a rubber mulch target and all i found was little pieces of bullet. pretty sure they exploded.
I plan to use them for deer / hog hunting. i plan on driving them close between 1800-2000fps.

[kd7kmp]

I experience the same thing on my Marlin 336 30-30 when using the RD boolit. It can increase chamber pressure to unsafe levels if you don't watch the signs. I've not had any problems, though, if I keep it to mid-range loads.

Kevin

[Bloodman14]

They are water cooled WW. i shot them into a rubber mulch target and all i found was little pieces of bullet. pretty sure they exploded.
I plan to use them for deer / hog hunting. i plan on driving them close between 1800-2000fps.

Try air-cooling a few for testing purposes and see what happens.

[BIGRED]

can someone explain why softer would make this situation better? only thing i can think of is if it is softer than it would engage rifling just the same as now but it would be easier / smoother because of the softer lead. wouldn't softer lead tend to make the bullet slightly larger in diameter?
How soft can i go before i run into leading / performance issues. Like i mentioned i want to use these for Deer / Hog hunting, so they need to stay together and push thru the animal.

[popper]

Softer usually means less antimony, which can drop smaller, there are charts, I just don't remember where. WD can add an extra 1/2 thou. I think a 50/50 WDCOWW/pure would serve you better. Handle pressure on the mould & temp can adjust dia. but you have to play with it. Softer will let the engraving occur with reasonable chambering force. I just seat deeper and FCD to solve the problem in 30-30. Softer is OK for deer, depends on POI for pig. Check the hunting section to see what others are doing.

[rond]

Trim your brass shorter.

[BIGRED]

Several members have mentioned trim brass shorter... am i too assume this is being stated so i can seat the bullet deeper and use crimp groove or something to do with chamber and headspacing? or something else.

[Bloodman14]

Remember that J-words have a different shape/profile than boolits do, so the 'problem' that you are encountering is actually quite normal and common. As you are seating to the rifling, your chamber pressure will be more consistent, as well as your accuracy. Trimming your cases shorter will effectively remove your ability to crimp, so I must admit I don't see the reasoning for trimming. ACWW should improve the malleability (no break-up of the boolit), as well as perform better on the target animal.

[sthwestvictoria]

As per gunnerd and popper this is fine with cast. This is my 250grain .358 mold from CBE, loaded in a cartridge showing the engraving and then a sulfur/graphite chamber cast showing how far into the rifling the nose sits:
77819

As Gunnerd states this engaging is due to the often fairly blunt nose of cast compared to jacketed. If found best accuracy with the boolit out as long as it would go and still be able to extract the cartridge whole. At OAL of 80.0mm I had great accuracy but got one boolit stuck in the throat on extracting an unfired cartridge - puts an end to the shooting session.

I have settled on 79.5mm with has given me accuracy with reliability in being able to extract unfired cartridges.

Obviously this is not the case if you go to reloading jacketed - this amount of engraving may create over-pressure with jacketed.

[mroliver77]

Looks to me as if this is a bore riding boolit. You said nose is .351". Is there about .00005 rifling engagement on the nose? It appears to me the nose is just too big for your bore size. Looks like maybe a .350 nose would slide up the bore? Does this sound like what is happening?

A boolit with less antimony casts slightly smaller is what they are trying to tell when they are saying softer. You can also have a custom nose sizing die made by Buckshot IF my assumption is correct.

A throat/lead slug would tell the answer.
Jay

[BIGRED]

it is all making sense now. I got these bullets from a forum member to try out while my mold and Sizer was on Back order. he used WW water dropped. When i get the mold i will experiment with different alloys to get the bullet a little smaller and perform better on game.

there is .150" of rifling engraved into the nose. my J-Bullets mic at .349 where this bullet measures .351 so smaller bullet and a little deeper seating sounds like it will fix the issue.

As always thanks everyone your knowledge is well appreciated.

[Bloodman14]

BIGRED, you have GOT to slug your bore and cast/size .001-.002 OVER the bore size to get a good seal. Or, cast/size to the throat and call it good.

[mpmarty]

Jamming the boolit into the leade is OK with cast. Not so good with J-words.

[BIGRED]

As i stated in my OP the barrel slugs out at .3580
Bullets are .3585/.3590 depending where it is measured (in OP)
so yes i am at the .001 over bore size.

[Hard_Cast]

Trimming the case shorter does NOT remove the ability to crimp.... think about it. That would only be true if keeping same OAL. Trim your cases .02 (or however far you measure they are jamming) shorter and keep them separate to use only for cast. Then adjust the seating depth to crimp in groove and test the rounds. I'd only worry about it if the rounds were too difficult to chamber or too difficult to eject a live round. I don't think that amount of crimp is excessive for use in a tube fed magazine.

[BIGRED]

from what i remember seating the bullet base past the shoulder isn't recommended. trimming and then seating bullet an additional .15-.2" doesn't seem like it would be a good idea for optimum performance.

but i may be wrong.

[RickinTN]

Didn't say seat it .2" deeper. It looks more like .020" would take care of it. If you look at the picture the front of the front driving band is being swaged down to fit the leade of your chamber. Just seat deeper enough that the front driving band is not swaged as it is in the picture. I don't think the rifling engraving is your problem. It will produce some resistance, but with the mechanical advantage of the Marlin lever system I don't think you would even feel the difference. Having the bullet engage the rifling is not a bad thing and is actually desired.

[popper]

I don't like to trim and keep separate brass. I use the FCD, have even crimped on the ogive without problems. Just crimp enough to remove the bell and do a push test (body weight & a table edge), if it doesn't move, neck tension & crimp are good. Seat 0.020-.030 deeper and see if that works for now. I carry a brass rod to the range but that won't work for hunting.

[BIGRED]

i measured .150" of bullet being engraved by the rifling, wouldn't this mean i would need to seat .15" deeper to put the bullet far enough back where it would just kiss the rifling.
I know kissing the rifling is prefered for accuracy, i do this with bolt actions. but on this lever action i want it to close freely or with little resistance.

i think i will try seating it deeper and deeper until the engraving and resistance is minimal. as i was told in another post " the crimp does not have to be in the crimp groove". i can only seat another .05" before i run out of bullet to crimp to.

i will keep tinkering with it.