Please do not sell range brass as guaranteed once fired brass.

[Just Duke]

I just toted to the curb here on trash day the last of the once fired brass that had primers so flat they looked like they were welded in and the head stamp were barely legible even under a magnifying glass they were loaded so hot. Also brass that is on it's 10th firing just needs to be thrown away.
I'd say post pics of your brass your selling.
Anyway, this is the fourth 1 gallon paint can of four total over the last 3 years that went to land fill.
The wife and I figured $400.00 loss on the very low end so someone could have beer money.
Be advised range brass comes with no guarantee of times fired or what load used. Just a safety precaution.
Before anyone mentions it and I know they will I have no interest in going to the junk yards and trying to pedal scrap brass.
I also had this fella here on the forum from UT that met me here in Vegas that tried to pass off some hammered junk as once fired also 6 months ago. I told him I'll pass. <eyes rolling>
Two years ago we stock up on 270 brass almost half had to be thrown out. This was to be for the wife's rifle.
I have been reloading non stop since 1977 so I'm pretty aware of what's good and what isn't.

On a good note we picked up around 2200 or so cases from several members here over the last two months and all but one was unsatisfactory. 60 pieces or so were bad.

[4719dave]

Yes hand checking the brass is a good thing not all range brass is bad .

[starmac]

I guess I have been lucky, buying from members here. The only ones I have really noticed claiming range brass as once fired is from those with a deal cleaning up after a known police shoot or something else that is pretty much a once fired deal.

[Just Duke]

I guess I have been lucky, buying from members here. The only ones I have really noticed claiming range brass as once fired is from those with a deal cleaning up after a known police shoot or something else that is pretty much a once fired deal.

No I ask if it's once fired from the get go.

[DukeInFlorida]

It depends on where the brass comes from:

* I have had a LOT of 223/5.56 brass that came from Police DEpartment training exercises. It was all Lake City, and in the shack where they do their classroom meeting before the shooting, there were remnants of the wooden cases that Lake City ships in.... in the trash barrels... That's all once fired!

* I also get a LOT of .40 S&W also from the LE range. No doubt in my mind that it's all once fired. There are barrels full of factory boxes.

* The rest of the stuff I pick up from the "utility ranges", which is where the civilians shoot from........... I can't ever assume that it is all once fired. In fact, I have on my wall of my reloading room (for the purposes of the reloading classes that I do), a zip lock with a 9mm that is flattened beyond recognition. The head end is even concave. If that guy fired more than one of those, his gun must look like junk.

So, my only suggestion that brass is once fired is when I know for certain that it's law enforcement, etc.

[Sweetpea]

Seems some folks think people re-crimp primers when they reload...

If you want NEW, then buy it...

[4719dave]

Yes don't ever assume its 100%. I've Have gotten some bad brass before as we'll split necks flat primers .I had a buddy get some brass from scrap yard once oh ya should have stayed there so always ck brass

[danski26]

just because it comes from a LE range does not mean it was once fired. Even if it has LC headstamps and LC ammo crates are laying around. Furthermore a couple years ago I had a disagreement with fellows on this forum who believed they could tell once fired brass by looking at it. Maybe a percentage of time you can guess but never for certain.

[Just Duke]

If I have to swage/ream primer pockets on military brass it's once fired. Pretty easy to tell.

[Hardcast416taylor]

This comment is just to qualify what Duke said someone would say. The scrap yard near my place is paying $1 a lb. for cartridge brass. I just took a 5 gal. pail in of Berdan mil. brass and other tired cases and trimmer shavings as well as a bunch of spent primers that weighed 53 lb. altogether. I swapped that for roll sheet lead trimmings of soft lead. That pail has been filling for the last 20+ years.Robert

[Just Duke]

Seems some folks think people re-crimp primers when they reload...

If you want NEW, then buy it...
Several different primers metals are pretty much a dead give away. ;)

[danski26]

That's about the only way to be almost positive Duke. Non-crimped primer stuff though....

[DeanWinchester]

just because it comes from a LE range does not mean it was once fired. Even if it has LC headstamps and LC ammo crates are laying around. Furthermore a couple years ago I had a disagreement with fellows on this forum who believed they could tell once fired brass by looking at it. Maybe a percentage of time you can guess but never for certain.

That's stupid. Who would think they could tell by looking? I have 308 brass on its 12th loading and I challenge anyone to tell it from once fired....unless you're measuring wall thickness or something, they are getting a touch thin.

Arm chair experts are really annoying.

[Just Duke]

It depends on where the brass comes from:

* I have had a LOT of 223/5.56 brass that came from Police DEpartment training exercises. It was all Lake City, and in the shack where they do their classroom meeting before the shooting, there were remnants of the wooden cases that Lake City ships in.... in the trash barrels... That's all once fired!

* I also get a LOT of .40 S&W also from the LE range. No doubt in my mind that it's all once fired. There are barrels full of factory boxes.

* The rest of the stuff I pick up from the "utility ranges", which is where the civilians shoot from........... I can't ever assume that it is all once fired. In fact, I have on my wall of my reloading room (for the purposes of the reloading classes that I do), a zip lock with a 9mm that is flattened beyond recognition. The head end is even concave. If that guy fired more than one of those, his gun must look like junk.

So, my only suggestion that brass is once fired is when I know for certain that it's law enforcement, etc.

Your brass is all good to go Duke especially considering the pricey guns you have been running it through. If I had the jingle I'd buy it all from you in lieu of a future Blkout build.
It's the civilian brass I have the most problems with.
Right now the wife and her GF's loaded up 1800 rounds of .270 and I told them all the brass is if-y. Just let it hit the ground and don't pick it back up.

[Just Duke]

That's stupid. Who would think they could tell by looking? I have 308 brass on its 12th loading and I challenge anyone to tell it from once fired....unless you're measuring wall thickness or something, they are getting a touch thin.

Arm chair experts are really annoying.

We use a probe to check for cracked webs. Also an ear inspection instrument.
The moral of the story is integrity. ;)

[Just Duke]

Let's keep this civil gents. Were all brothers here with the same goal.

[Just Duke]

Wait for it............

[Sweetpea]

Several different primers metals are pretty much a dead give away. ;)

Agreed...

You had me worried, though...

I had to go upstairs and check all my once-fired military brass, and check to see if somebody RE-crimped in some nickel primers...

NOPE

Guess I dodged a bullet there...

Anybody ever have a flattened primer on a factory round???

The whole "flattened primer" myth needs to be put to bed.

[OnceFired]

This issue is why I only acquire & sell from the military bases. You can't even be 100% sure with LE sources. They are almost all required to use factory rounds, but that's just for their own qualifying & sponsored training. The officers might or might not reload on their own, they may/may not have guests on the ranges, etc. Crimped & military is the way to go.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I see people sell "range brass" and all kinds of shooters run to buy it??? I don't know why?

[ncbearman]

Hi,
I see people sell "range brass" and all kinds of shooters run to buy it??? I don't know why?

The biggest reason people go for the "range brass" is the thinking of if they were reloaders they would pick it up. This may or may not be true as some let it drop when they are on the last firing. Also indoor range as opposed to outdoor has something to do with what your going to get. I have an indoor range close to me and they sell the brass at a very reasonable rate. I never assume once fired though.

[Bonz]

Every round that I fire has a flat primer, except for the firing pin strike. And also, on primer color, we've already hashed that out. Factory rounds come with either yellow or silver primers, whatever the ammo manufacturer has at the time is what gets "pushed" in the brass case.

77210

As far as how many times to reload a brass case = up to the reloader. I reload brass cases until they don't look safe to reload anymore. At that point, I squish the brass case and toss it in the scrap brass bucket. I have read several articles on how many times brass can be safely reloaded. One that comes to mind was a list of most brass manufacturers and the amount of reloads until the brass case began to show that it was failing. Aguilla 9mm cases were safely reloaded 20+ times.

=But= I definately agree that if you are not 100% sure that the brass cases were only once fired, you should not advertise them as once fired. Range Brass or Range Pickup, etc. will do just fine.

[freebullet]

Id say give the scrap away if you don't want it. It is useable again as scrap. To send it to a landfill seems wasteful. I'm sure there are people near you who would pick it up. I save mine. I would rather trade it for a miniscule amount of lead than nothing. You'd be surprised what you can give away.
I use a lot of rb but no he man loads it helps keep us plinking.

[km101]

I never assume that ANY brass is once fired, unless I fired it myself. And that is whether I am buying or selling. Anything I sell is "range brass" unless I fired it.

Anyone who thinks that he can tell if brass is once fired by looking at the color, primer, primer flattening, etc. is just kidding himself. If you have to have "once fired" buy only from a trusted source, or fire new ammo.
Anything else is a crapshoot!

[Bonz]

Buy new brass and ship me your "twice fired" brass.

[tomme boy]

I sell a lot of range brass on here. I look over the brass and if it has a cracked neck or the primers look like they are really flat, I throw them in the scrap bucket. If I know they are 1x fired I will say it. Some brass like 45acp I don't care if it is 1x fired or not. I am usually right there when they fire them so I know they are once fired.

Normally a person that reloads can spot a reload. One thing I look for are silver primers. I look them over extra careful as it normally means a reload. But not always. Now that ATK owns Federal and CCI, a lot of Federal brass has been showing up with CCI primers in them. I usually throw in extra brass if something looks funny.

If Anyone that buys brass from me have a problem with it, CONTACT me. Duke, I can't remember if I ever sold anything to you or not.

[tomme boy]

Oh ya, Hornady brass has been showing up lately with nickle primers as well.

[gee-gaw]

It is a ****-shoot! I've purchased a lot of 9MM brass on here and other sites. I shoot it in a Glock with a custom barrel and usually leave it where it falls. Some people pick it up, and RE-use it and that's fine. When it comes to Rifle brass, I'm very particular. My match brass is minimally worked and may get loaded 15-18 times a season.It would be hard to tell it from new, especially after its been cleaned in SS media. Bottom line is, if you want premo, buy new. At least you'll know what you have. Oh, and I like Lapua...

[marvelshooter]

I just bought 100 "once fired commercial" .30-06 cases from a seller on Gunbroker. About 1/3 of the lot was 50's military brass and all of it was so tarnished that 10 hours in a wet tumbler hasn't got it bright yet. Once fired? The GI stuff probably and the rest who knows.

[EDG]

There is a lot of factory ammo that has nickel primers.
There are a lot of ammo and rifle combinations that can produce flattened riveted primers in even low pressure rounds like the 30-30.
I don't agree with much of what Duke says.
I have been reloading much longer for more calibers and have bought more once fired brass.
It is rare that I get anything bad. That only happens when bought sight unseen.
If you rely entirely on the seller's word and judgment you are being foolish.

[Bonz]

The really funny thing is that Professional Commercial Reloading companies don't care how many times brass has been fired. They just clean the brass and run it through their case checker machine ( Camdex, Ammoload, Skarcher, etc ) and if it passes, it gets loaded. No one visually inspects the brass at these companies.

Personally, I visually inspect every case, after cleaning, before I reload it. Thats my quality control...

[dbosman]

Anybody ever have a flattened primer on a factory round???
The whole "flattened primer" myth needs to be put to bed.

Does military brass count as factory rounds?
I've seen flattened primers 9mm military brass with crimped in primers.
I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that it was fired in a small machine gun.

[dbosman]

Hi,
I see people sell "range brass" and all kinds of shooters run to buy it??? I don't know why?

For a lot of shooters, the quality isn't as important as price and quantity.
Early on, I was one of them. One day I traded for several boxes of factory wad cutters. After reloading those with swagged wad cutters range brass stopped looking like a bargain. After learning a lot more here... ;-)

[bikerbeans]

To me once fired means the brass has only been fired once since it was last reloaded. If I buy factory ammo and shoot it myself then I might just believe it is once fired, but knowing me I can't be sure.:grin:

BB

[Love Life]

Ya'll wan't to see cratered and flattened primers on 1X fired brass? Check out the primers on LC LR brass. That stuff is loaded stout!!

[4719dave]

you forgot the lemshine lol 10 hrs .
I just bought 100 "once fired commercial" .30-06 cases from a seller on Gunbroker. About 1/3 of the lot was 50's military brass and all of it was so tarnished that 10 hours in a wet tumbler hasn't got it bright yet. Once fired? The GI stuff probably and the rest who knows.

[andremajic]

About flattened primers. I saw the illustrations in the lyman reloading books showing different loads fired at 10000 difference between pressures, and you literally can't see the difference between them. This is a testament to the quality and safety factor that factories put into their brass. I can certainly tell you that I can't see the differences, so I won't claim to.

Darryl Holland (An expert gunsmith and shooter that I admire.) Says that if you want match quality ammo, you need to buy factory brass to start with and then cull the ones that weigh too much or too little, check runout, etc. I can agree to a point. If you're looking for 1/4" groups then this should be your rule.

But if you're like me and 1-1.5" groups make you happy, you can stick to sorting by headstamp, weighing, annealing and you'll get pretty good results as well.

The thing that clued me in to this is Federal Gold match ammo. It's considered the benchmark factory ammo that every rifle magazine judges the accuracy of rifles with. If you pull a couple factory loads of this factory ammo, you will notice charge weights vary considerably, sometimes up to 1-2 gr. difference!
I think the secret is in the annealed cases, which are softer than most brands. They probably use some sort of air gauge to check the case capacity and dispense the powder to match this. (My theory) The combination of neck tension, and proper powder for the case capacity is what works for them so well.

Some people got more time than money. Sometimes it just makes sense to buy quality brass and save yourself the time and aggravation that might come with using range pickups. Sometimes supplies are scarce, and you make do with what you got.

It's really an individual judgement call. Everyone has their opinions, but It's your time and treasure that's at stake.

[GP100man]

I have a few sources that I`ll pay premium prices for "reloading brass" & they know I`ll pay it & they sort accordingly & contact me & we`ve built a trust between supplier & consumer.

But for "once fired" from an unfamilar source it has to be priced rite so rejected cases won`t drive up the cost per case, if not I go on further.

1 of my requirements is to recieve brass "as is" no cleaning or polishing, I wanna see it in it`s fired state.

Another thing I don`t do is jump at a "too good to be true deals" when it comes to brass , I don`t even glance at bullets or boolits anymore since getting molds for the rifles.

I have some batches of annealed brass , even for revolvers !

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0510.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_0510.jpg.html)

[tomme boy]

Federal Gold Medal brass has thicker necks. So it fills the chamber better. That is on of the main reasons it shoots so well. Most people that shoot the match bullets do not like the Federal brass as it is soft. Even the primer pockets. So at the speeds the go fast guys like to run these, They don't last very long.

If I tell you the brass I sell is 1x fired, IT IS.

[axman]

For the life of me I can't figure out what he is swapping or selling.

[GP100man]

For the life of me I can't figure out what he is swapping or selling.

Paying forward a bucket of scrape brass ???

[Springfield]

He isn't doing either, he is dumping brass cases he doesn't like in the trash because he doesn't believe it is once fired and doesn't want to bother selling it for scrap. And is telling all the vendors out there that they better make sure what they sell is really once fired, 'cause he doesn't like getting taken. I think that about sums it up.

[waksupi]

This type of thread shouldn't be in this section, I'll try to figure out where to put it tomorrow.

[Sweetpea]

This type of thread shouldn't be in this section, I'll try to figure out where to put it tomorrow.

I'm thinking the complaint department... lol

[MaryB]

Made a deal for 3700 9mm range cases today. $125, I will do a lot of sorting to get the junk picked out.

[sargenv]

The bummer thing is that there are some of us looking for brass that is not reloadable so we can get one more use out of it as a projectile's jacket.. All brass is useful, even if multiple times fired.. someone somewhere has the means to turn it into something other than what we use it for. I know a gent that picks up the tarnished nasty brass that sits on the range and he melts it all down and does sculpture with it.. Just because it is un-usable to you, does not mean it is completely worthless.. Someone will likely pay for your scrap.. usable as cartridges or not.. It still contains Copper and Zinc... and can be turned into something else using those metals.

[M-Tecs]

Last time I sold my scrap brass I got $128.00. I purchased 5,000 primers with the money.

[ironhead7544]

Depending on what you are using the brass for, range brass can be a bargain. For rifle, if you just want plinking ammo mixed brass is OK. For best rifle accuracy new brass is the way to go. For 25 yard pistol practice used brass should be fine. Past that it could be a problem. I expect to find some bad brass in range pickup stuff. Careful inspection is necessary.

With semi auto pistol rounds look for the marks the extractor and ejector make. You will be able to tell if the brass if well used. Some rifles also leave a mark but it is harder to tell.

[JohnFreeman]

Hi,
I see people sell "range brass" and all kinds of shooters run to buy it??? I don't know why?

Because for recreational shooting it's economical and works fine?

John

[seagiant]

Because for recreational shooting it's economical and works fine?

John

Hi,
Well...if it is auto type brass,45acp,38super,40sw, and worn out, you have a REAL big chance of blowing your gun up! Ask me how I know!

[Airman Basic]

We're a small police department and I don't have the wherewithal to supply new brass rounds for training or qualifying. We buy from these folks http://www.precisiondelta.com/ and most agencies around here do also. We swap brass for discounts and the reloaded stuff works fine. Carry ammo is new stuff and we shoot that up twice a year. That's the only time new brass hits the ground at my range.

[Love Life]

Seagiant- That could have been caused by worn out brass or poor reloading practices.


Here is the best advice I can give. Buy at your own risk.

[ACrowe25]

Hi,
Well...if it is auto type brass,45acp,38super,40sw, and worn out, you have a REAL big chance of blowing your gun up! Ask me how I know!

With a good checking system prior to loading something like that could have been avoided IMO.

To OP, seems like you can be quite picky about your brass and it's condition--- NOT A PROBLEM at all. We each have our own type of QC. Some stricter than others when each of us have our reasons for reloading in the first place. To save time and money I'd suggest just ordering new from Starline and save the hassle. Even if I wanted to I couldn't GUARANTEE once fired. I don't think anyone could. At least the way I shoot at indoor/outdoor ranges there is brass everywhere. No way to tell whose is whose.

Myself I use range pickups all the time but I give each brass case at least 2 looks during the reloading process. Brass like 9mm and 45 acp I'm a little more lenient. 44 mag brass I purchases new. It's all what your looking to get out of "it" in the end.

To each their own. Good luck and safe shooting.

[Rio Grande]

It depends on where the brass comes from:

* I have had a LOT of 223/5.56 brass that came from Police DEpartment training exercises. It was all Lake City, and in the shack where they do their classroom meeting before the shooting, there were remnants of the wooden cases that Lake City ships in.... in the trash barrels... That's all once fired!

* I also get a LOT of .40 S&W also from the LE range. No doubt in my mind that it's all once fired. There are barrels full of factory boxes.

* The rest of the stuff I pick up from the "utility ranges", which is where the civilians shoot from........... I can't ever assume that it is all once fired. In fact, I have on my wall of my reloading room (for the purposes of the reloading classes that I do), a zip lock with a 9mm that is flattened beyond recognition. The head end is even concave. If that guy fired more than one of those, his gun must look like junk.

So, my only suggestion that brass is once fired is when I know for certain that it's law enforcement, etc.

Still....you do not know for certain.
ALL brass picked up that you did not personally buy and fire must never be guaranteed 'once fired'.

[Love Life]

5.56, 7.62, and 9mm from DRMO and .Gov auctions is once fired. The military does not feel the need to save money by reloading it's brass.

[seagiant]

Seagiant- That could have been caused by worn out brass or poor reloading practices.


Here is the best advice I can give. Buy at your own risk.

Hi,
Of course I disagree with the later!:bigsmyl2:

[Love Life]

You should have seen the guppy brass I made when playing with 800X in the 10mm with an unsupported chamber!! I squished those and tossed them in the bucket.

Was that your brass SeaGiant? I thought it was a piece you picked up off the range.

[7of7]

Basically, the way I see it, is when you sell stuff, represent it truthfully. I know I have picked up some range brass, that is once fired. When you pick up 20 rounds, and the all have the same primers, same sealant still on the primers.. pretty much it is once fired.. (Okay, the box in the trash is kind of a dead give away) Just need to represent it correctly. Like, range pickup. and leave it at that. Unless you purchased it, and fired it yourself.
One thing I have noticed with .223 brass, is that some of the commercial primers are crimped. To me, that would indicate that they didn't want the primer backing out. It also tells me, that they are loaded on the hot side.

[Love Life]

Crimped primers are for the military. It is to keep primers from backing out during recoil when the weapon system is fired on full auto or 3 rd burst.

[BrassMagnet]

The really funny thing is that Professional Commercial Reloading companies don't care how many times brass has been fired. They just clean the brass and run it through their case checker machine ( Camdex, Ammoload, Skarcher, etc ) and if it passes, it gets loaded. No one visually inspects the brass at these companies.

Personally, I visually inspect every case, after cleaning, before I reload it. Thats my quality control...

Commercial reloaders are also notorious for blowing up customer's guns. When I was stationed in San Diego (many years ago), there was a commercial reloader from Orange County, California, that blew up my S&W Model 29.
I weighed loaded cartridges and none were obviously overcharges. I disassembled a bunch of them and found about 1/16" deep W296 inside. For those of you unfamiliar with W296, reduced charges are not recommended. These were not "reduced." These were counting on "detonation" to achieve "97% of factory!" as they advertised "Loaded to 97% of factory specifications." We assumed a double or triple charge still had so little case volume used it would still detonate.

BrassMagnet

PS. They obviously boxed everything which came out of the machine without any inspection. They even delivered ammo with ALL PRIMERS Upside down! They did use virgin brass for 44 Magnum. Should I have I have found a better way to get 1x brass?

BrassMagnet

[mdi]

I agree, you won't know how many times a case has been fired. But, I haven't had any problems with "once fired" range brass (mebbe I'm jes lucky). I settled the problem with "once fired" years ago by just considering it "used". 98% of all the used brass I've purchased had been reloadable and none have been damaged by over loads. I'll admit most has been handgun brass, but the .223/5.56 and 30-06 has been pretty good also. So, if yer thinkin' 'bout getting "once fired" brass good luck!

[BBQJOE]

Well, if we're going to ask people not to sell brass as once fired without verification, can we also ask folks to please not step on the brass inside ranges?

[Nickle]

Commercial reloaders are also notorious for blowing up customer's guns. When I was stationed in San Diego (many years ago), there was a commercial reloader from Orange County, California, that blew up my S&W Model 29.
I weighed loaded cartridges and none were obviously overcharges. I disassembled a bunch of them and found about 1/16" deep W296 inside. For those of you unfamiliar with W296, reduced charges are not recommended. These were not "reduced." These were counting on "detonation" to achieve "97% of factory!" as they advertised "Loaded to 97% of factory specifications." We assumed a double or triple charge still had so little case volume used it would still detonate.

BrassMagnet

PS. They obviously boxed everything which came out of the machine without any inspection. They even delivered ammo with ALL PRIMERS Upside down! They did use virgin brass for 44 Magnum. Should I have I have found a better way to get 1x brass?

BrassMagnet

Not all commercial reloaders are morons like those guys were. They ought to be dragged out into the street and publicly horsewhipped.

Zero quality control and a stupid approach to loading isn't good for business.

Me, I'm a Type 06, and take pride in what I make for sale (or myself). I'd rather not make something than make it "half baked".

[Nickle]

By the way, the original poster is 100% correct.

I never consider used brass as once fired. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It's a **** shoot, and all of it gets inspected.

And, tell me it's "guaranteed once fired", it had best have crimped primers, or I'm not buying it. I still might, because I don't like the attitude. If you bought it new and fired it yourself, that's different.

Pick ups are just that, pick ups. You have no full knowledge how many times it has been used, other than crimped primers. Empty boxes just says it might, or likely is, once fired. It does not, and can not "guarantee" it.

[fredj338]

Well, buyer beware, always been that way. If a deal looks too good to be true, it often is. I only buy once fired brass from reputable dealers/sources. You are rolling the dice buying form a range rat that is scavanging.

[wallenba]

I feel for ya. I'm in the habit of bashing the case heads of unuseable brass. I make the determination at home, but I take the bashed brass to the range to put in the recycle bin.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is much ado about nothing. If you don't inspect your brass before you load it, you really need to. Everyone who reloads needs to learn what is a good case and what is scrap. Relying on the "Supposed Pedigree" of any given piece of cartridge brass is just an accident waiting to happen. Reason being, unless you bought it new and kept perfect track of every case thruout every firing you really don't know what you've got.

I submit that if you know what you are looking for, it doesn't make any difference.

Some cases from some particularly High Performance rounds you may only be able to reload once or twice. I'd look at these cases pretty close or just retire them after one or two firings. Other cases may last your lifetime as long as you take care of them.

I pick up brass at virtually every shoot I go to. Lots of it, like .223/5.56 is once fired and I know this for sure because the people I shoot with mostly don't reload, and also I can tell the diff. Primer crimps are still in place. I know of no one who re-crimps primers.

.40 S&W is the only caliber I question due to it's normally high pressure. I don't load it hot and I process my cases by De-bulging them first, and then they get tumbled and then loaded midrange. Also I pull headstamps known to be problematic. (FC and FC-10)

I don't care how many times .45 ACP brass has been loaded since it is obvious if a case is bad. But you still have to cull out the Small Primer cases so they don't foul your machine. They are such low pressure, and especially when loaded midrange, that they can be reloaded literally indefinitely. This statement doesn't hold true for Aluminum cases they are trash. You could even reload Steel cases indefinitely, just harder on your sizing die.

I feel that if I need some +P Pistol "Self Defense" loads for some imagined encounter with a medium to large dinosaur, I will go buy some factory +P ammo. I only reload midrange for everything, Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun. I see no reason for hotrod loads for anything I do, or for that matter, anything YOU do! Shot placement trumps velocity in EVERY instance! I beg someone to argue this point.

I seldom get to load my auto pistol rounds more than once anyway since they go flying and usually someone else snarfles them up before I can collect them,,, No big loss, plenty more where they came from. I have nothing but range brass for .45 ACP! that's why I bought a.45 Pistol,,, to shoot all the range brass I had picked up!

With rifle brass the only new brass I have ever shot in .30-06 and .308 has come from factory ammo I bought. In .308 I am on my 6th reload of the original 100 rounds I bought when I got my Scout. However I have several hundred other cases from two sources I know for sure are OF. Not because They said so, but because I know they are by looking at them.

I have 1400+ rounds of O F Federal .30-06 that I know was once fired because the guy who fired it rebuilt 25,000 Garands for Arlington Ordinance in the 90's and used factory ammo to test fire the guns. He gave me a 5 gallon bucket (one of 15 sitting there) of the stuff and it will last me the rest of my life and then some. It was all factory ammo and had no crimps so it wasn't ex mil, it was new commercial ammo. Some of the rims are bad cuz Garands are hard on cases. They get relegated to Cast Boolit loads or loads to be used in Bolt guns after I toonce the rims back in place. If they are too bad,,, into the scrap bin they go. OF or NOT.

I have Mil .30-06 LC cases from WWII to 1953 that I bought in the 70's that have been loaded so many times I have forgotten and are still good. They get shot, Resized and de-primed, tumbled, inspected, and reloaded. Once again not hot!

I feel you can only inspect a case that is clean.

You've got to learn what to look for and how to evaluate a case for soundness. Read and re-read the manuals for this information until you understand it perfectly! Do your damn homework. Reloading is kind of a "Technical Hobby." that means you have to pay attention.

There is no substitute for KNOWING what is right. "Thinking they Know," is where many are at. This stance can be problematic.

As far as flat primers being a true indicator of hot loads, that is only partially true. If you see military brass which are once fired and the primers are flat then they were loaded Hot at the factory. Military primers are harder than commercial primers so they don't induce slam firing in automatic guns. Most people know this. You can even buy these primers from CCI to reload for Garands and M1A's.

If they are flattened to the point where you can't see the edge of the primer pocket that was pretty hot, however it doesn't mean the case is dead. If you want to reload them that hot again you are a fool, stop where you are at! However that doesn't mean they can't have a good service life as mid-range loads.

Saying that if a primer is flat, it is a certain indicator of hot loads is just plain NOT RIGHT! There are many other factors involved. The hardness of the primer cup being the main one. Bullet fit in the bore, COAL, and there are certainly others as well. The key is to know what you are looking at.

My .308 loads of 45 gr of 4895 and a recycled 147gr FMJBT flattens every primer I shoot and that load is not even close to American Eagle factory loads, let alone being hot. The Remington 9 1/2 primers I am currently using up have soft brass cups and would deform if you farted in the case, and that's why they flatten out, not because of some High pressure condition.

Lots more to this than meets the eye and that's why this site is so popular. There is a vast amount of knowledge here, and it is not to hard to find the correct answers to all of your burning questions.

If you process your brass correctly and inspect it for defects there is no reason you must use OF brass. Learning what is a good case and what is a bad one, is what you need to do.

I have a scrap pale. I have a note on it that says "if it's in here, it should be in here!" Cases that are split, deformed, crushed, bad rims, Berdan primed etc. all go there.

At a $1.80 a pound they go to scrap recyclers with the rest of my recycled materials. I am about to scrap out about a ton of "dirty Aluminum" IE aluminum that has steel fasteners in it, @ .20 a lb! as opposed to .45 for clean aluminum. Not worth messing with to clean it up. I'll be taking my plastic bottles and aluminum cans in the same trip. .20 x 2000lbs = $400! That is worth the trip. A five gallon pale of brass is worth nearly $100!

Lost of trips to McDonalds there.

Randy

[ncbearman]

This is much ado about nothing. If you don't inspect your brass before you load it, you really need to. Everyone who reloads needs to learn what is a good case and what is scrap. Relying on the "Supposed Pedigree" of any given piece of cartridge brass is just an accident waiting to happen. Reason being, unless you bought it new and kept perfect track of every case thruout every firing you really don't know what you've got.

I submit that if you know what you are looking for, it doesn't make any difference.

Some cases from some particularly High Performance rounds you may only be able to reload once or twice. I'd look at these cases pretty close or just retire them after one or two firings. Other cases may last your lifetime as long as you take care of them.

I pick up brass at virtually every shoot I go to. Lots of it, like .223/5.56 is once fired and I know this for sure because the people I shoot with mostly don't reload, and also I can tell the diff. Primer crimps are still in place. I know of no one who re-crimps primers.

.40 S&W is the only caliber I question due to it's normally high pressure. I don't load it hot and I process my cases by De-bulging them first, and then they get tumbled and then loaded midrange. Also I pull headstamps known to be problematic. (FC and FC-10)

I don't care how many times .45 ACP brass has been loaded since it is obvious if a case is bad. But you still have to cull out the Small Primer cases so they don't foul your machine. They are such low pressure, and especially when loaded midrange, that they can be reloaded literally indefinitely. This statement doesn't hold true for Aluminum cases they are trash. You could even reload Steel cases indefinitely, just harder on your sizing die.

I feel that if I need some +P Pistol "Self Defense" loads for some imagined encounter with a medium to large dinosaur, I will go buy some factory +P ammo. I only reload midrange for everything, Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun. I see no reason for hotrod loads for anything I do, or for that matter, anything YOU do! Shot placement trumps velocity in EVERY instance! I beg someone to argue this point.

I seldom get to load my auto pistol rounds more than once anyway since they go flying and usually someone else snarfles them up before I can collect them,,, No big loss, plenty more where they came from. I have nothing but range brass for .45 ACP! that's why I bought a.45 Pistol,,, to shoot all the range brass I had picked up!

With rifle brass the only new brass I have ever shot in .30-06 and .308 has come from factory ammo I bought. In .308 I am on my 6th reload of the original 100 rounds I bought when I got my Scout. However I have several hundred other cases from two sources I know for sure are OF. Not because They said so, but because I know they are by looking at them.

I have 1400+ rounds of O F Federal .30-06 that I know was once fired because the guy who fired it rebuilt 25,000 Garands for Arlington Ordinance in the 90's and used factory ammo to test fire the guns. He gave me a 5 gallon bucket (one of 15 sitting there) of the stuff and it will last me the rest of my life and then some. It was all factory ammo and had no crimps so it wasn't ex mil, it was new commercial ammo. Some of the rims are bad cuz Garands are hard on cases. They get relegated to Cast Boolit loads or loads to be used in Bolt guns after I toonce the rims back in place. If they are too bad,,, into the scrap bin they go. OF or NOT.

I have Mil .30-06 LC cases from WWII to 1953 that I bought in the 70's that have been loaded so many times I have forgotten and are still good. They get shot, Resized and de-primed, tumbled, inspected, and reloaded. Once again not hot!

I feel you can only inspect a case that is clean.

You've got to learn what to look for and how to evaluate a case for soundness. Read and re-read the manuals for this information until you understand it perfectly! Do your damn homework. Reloading is kind of a "Technical Hobby." that means you have to pay attention.

There is no substitute for KNOWING what is right. "Thinking they Know," is where many are at. This stance can be problematic.

As far as flat primers being a true indicator of hot loads, that is only partially true. If you see military brass which are once fired and the primers are flat then they were loaded Hot at the factory. Military primers are harder than commercial primers so they don't induce slam firing in automatic guns. Most people know this. You can even buy these primers from CCI to reload for Garands and M1A's.

If they are flattened to the point where you can't see the edge of the primer pocket that was pretty hot, however it doesn't mean the case is dead. If you want to reload them that hot again you are a fool, stop where you are at! However that doesn't mean they can't have a good service life as mid-range loads.

Saying that if a primer is flat, it is a certain indicator of hot loads is just plain NOT RIGHT! There are many other factors involved. The hardness of the primer cup being the main one. Bullet fit in the bore, COAL, and there are certainly others as well. The key is to know what you are looking at.

My .308 loads of 45 gr of 4895 and a recycled 147gr FMJBT flattens every primer I shoot and that load is not even close to American Eagle factory loads, let alone being hot. The Remington 9 1/2 primers I am currently using up have soft brass cups and would deform if you farted in the case, and that's why they flatten out, not because of some High pressure condition.

Lots more to this than meets the eye and that's why this site is so popular. There is a vast amount of knowledge here, and it is not to hard to find the correct answers to all of your burning questions.

If you process your brass correctly and inspect it for defects there is no reason you must use OF brass. Learning what is a good case and what is a bad one, is what you need to do.

I have a scrap pale. I have a note on it that says "if it's in here, it should be in here!" Cases that are split, deformed, crushed, bad rims, Berdan primed etc. all go there.

At a $1.80 a pound they go to scrap recyclers with the rest of my recycled materials. I am about to scrap out about a ton of "dirty Aluminum" IE aluminum that has steel fasteners in it, @ .20 a lb! as opposed to .45 for clean aluminum. Not worth messing with to clean it up. I'll be taking my plastic bottles and aluminum cans in the same trip. .20 x 2000lbs = $400! That is worth the trip. A five gallon pale of brass is worth nearly $100!

Lost of trips to McDonalds there.

Randy

Wow, that was alot for "much ado about nothing" :kidding: thanks for the info. Learn good from bad. Got it.

btw, I have alot of pistol brass that I am still reloading and have had since I was a teenager (in the 70's) Might not do that with rifle though.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Good Point: I do tend to be verbose!

My whole point in one sentence is; You gotta do your homework because this hobby is a technical one.

I went back and read Duke's OP. I guess you really shouldn't sell anything with a guarantee you can't live up to, whether you know it or not.

Randy

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I was shooting my springfield '06 in a match one day and I noticed on the box that I had been reloading the brass since the year 2000. At that time it was 2007. It was Natl Match brass and still worked great with no case failures and it was never annealed. My load was 19 grains of R7. I retired the brass but I didn't scrap it and I have every confidence that I could reload it several more times but I don't because I have so much of it.

[GaryN]

I have 44 magnum brass from the early seventies that I bought as factory loaded rounds. I have shot it many many times. I use it until they split. I don't load down with the 44 magnum too much. Maybe a grain under max. I have 220 swift brass I have had since the 80's that I have also loaded numerous times. I don't down load the swift either. If I wanted it to be downloaded I would buy a 223. I clean and inspect my brass before and during the loading process. I have never harmed a gun with reloads and they are quite accurate.

[Just Duke]

Thanks for your replies and input.

[Just Duke]

The moral of the story is integrity. ;)

[rintinglen]

Agreed...

You had me worried, though...

I had to go upstairs and check all my once-fired military brass, and check to see if somebody RE-crimped in some nickel primers...

NOPE

Guess I dodged a bullet there...

Anybody ever have a flattened primer on a factory round???

The whole "flattened primer" myth needs to be put to bed.

Flattened primers with factory loads? Oh yeah--had a .243 import on a mauser action years ago that went back to the shop for that very reason. EVERY round fired was flattened, extraction was sticky. Winchester, Federal or Remington made no difference--the fault lay in the gun.

Every so often you'll see a recall on one or more lots of ammo. At least some of them are the result of over chrges/wrong powder...flattened primers only may mean reloads.
more accurately, it means hot loading, though by whom., we have to guess.

Personally, I don't consider brass once fired unless I get it from the party who shot it--at the range where I saw him/her shoot it.
Otherwise, it's plinking loads only.

[GLL]

Although I mainly use new brass I have found starreloader to be a reliable source for quality used brass !

Jerry

[Cadillo]

This is much ado about nothing. If you don't inspect your brass before you load it, you really need to. Everyone who reloads needs to learn what is a good case and what is scrap. Relying on the "Supposed Pedigree" of any given piece of cartridge brass is just an accident waiting to happen. Reason being, unless you bought it new and kept perfect track of every case thruout every firing you really don't know what you've got.

I submit that if you know what you are looking for, it doesn't make any difference.

Some cases from some particularly High Performance rounds you may only be able to reload once or twice. I'd look at these cases pretty close or just retire them after one or two firings. Other cases may last your lifetime as long as you take care of them.

I pick up brass at virtually every shoot I go to. Lots of it, like .223/5.56 is once fired and I know this for sure because the people I shoot with mostly don't reload, and also I can tell the diff. Primer crimps are still in place. I know of no one who re-crimps primers.

.40 S&W is the only caliber I question due to it's normally high pressure. I don't load it hot and I process my cases by De-bulging them first, and then they get tumbled and then loaded midrange. Also I pull headstamps known to be problematic. (FC and FC-10)

I don't care how many times .45 ACP brass has been loaded since it is obvious if a case is bad. But you still have to cull out the Small Primer cases so they don't foul your machine. They are such low pressure, and especially when loaded midrange, that they can be reloaded literally indefinitely. This statement doesn't hold true for Aluminum cases they are trash. You could even reload Steel cases indefinitely, just harder on your sizing die.

I feel that if I need some +P Pistol "Self Defense" loads for some imagined encounter with a medium to large dinosaur, I will go buy some factory +P ammo. I only reload midrange for everything, Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun. I see no reason for hotrod loads for anything I do, or for that matter, anything YOU do! Shot placement trumps velocity in EVERY instance! I beg someone to argue this point.

I seldom get to load my auto pistol rounds more than once anyway since they go flying and usually someone else snarfles them up before I can collect them,,, No big loss, plenty more where they came from. I have nothing but range brass for .45 ACP! that's why I bought a.45 Pistol,,, to shoot all the range brass I had picked up!

With rifle brass the only new brass I have ever shot in .30-06 and .308 has come from factory ammo I bought. In .308 I am on my 6th reload of the original 100 rounds I bought when I got my Scout. However I have several hundred other cases from two sources I know for sure are OF. Not because They said so, but because I know they are by looking at them.

I have 1400+ rounds of O F Federal .30-06 that I know was once fired because the guy who fired it rebuilt 25,000 Garands for Arlington Ordinance in the 90's and used factory ammo to test fire the guns. He gave me a 5 gallon bucket (one of 15 sitting there) of the stuff and it will last me the rest of my life and then some. It was all factory ammo and had no crimps so it wasn't ex mil, it was new commercial ammo. Some of the rims are bad cuz Garands are hard on cases. They get relegated to Cast Boolit loads or loads to be used in Bolt guns after I toonce the rims back in place. If they are too bad,,, into the scrap bin they go. OF or NOT.

I have Mil .30-06 LC cases from WWII to 1953 that I bought in the 70's that have been loaded so many times I have forgotten and are still good. They get shot, Resized and de-primed, tumbled, inspected, and reloaded. Once again not hot!

I feel you can only inspect a case that is clean.

You've got to learn what to look for and how to evaluate a case for soundness. Read and re-read the manuals for this information until you understand it perfectly! Do your damn homework. Reloading is kind of a "Technical Hobby." that means you have to pay attention.

There is no substitute for KNOWING what is right. "Thinking they Know," is where many are at. This stance can be problematic.

As far as flat primers being a true indicator of hot loads, that is only partially true. If you see military brass which are once fired and the primers are flat then they were loaded Hot at the factory. Military primers are harder than commercial primers so they don't induce slam firing in automatic guns. Most people know this. You can even buy these primers from CCI to reload for Garands and M1A's.

If they are flattened to the point where you can't see the edge of the primer pocket that was pretty hot, however it doesn't mean the case is dead. If you want to reload them that hot again you are a fool, stop where you are at! However that doesn't mean they can't have a good service life as mid-range loads.

Saying that if a primer is flat, it is a certain indicator of hot loads is just plain NOT RIGHT! There are many other factors involved. The hardness of the primer cup being the main one. Bullet fit in the bore, COAL, and there are certainly others as well. The key is to know what you are looking at.

My .308 loads of 45 gr of 4895 and a recycled 147gr FMJBT flattens every primer I shoot and that load is not even close to American Eagle factory loads, let alone being hot. The Remington 9 1/2 primers I am currently using up have soft brass cups and would deform if you farted in the case, and that's why they flatten out, not because of some High pressure condition.

Lots more to this than meets the eye and that's why this site is so popular. There is a vast amount of knowledge here, and it is not to hard to find the correct answers to all of your burning questions.

If you process your brass correctly and inspect it for defects there is no reason you must use OF brass. Learning what is a good case and what is a bad one, is what you need to do.

I have a scrap pale. I have a note on it that says "if it's in here, it should be in here!" Cases that are split, deformed, crushed, bad rims, Berdan primed etc. all go there.

At a $1.80 a pound they go to scrap recyclers with the rest of my recycled materials. I am about to scrap out about a ton of "dirty Aluminum" IE aluminum that has steel fasteners in it, @ .20 a lb! as opposed to .45 for clean aluminum. Not worth messing with to clean it up. I'll be taking my plastic bottles and aluminum cans in the same trip. .20 x 2000lbs = $400! That is worth the trip. A five gallon pale of brass is worth nearly $100!

Lost of trips to McDonalds there.

Randy

Sir,

You are a beacon of light shining out over a dark, stormy, and desolate sea.

Well done!

[Just Duke]

Oh my. Now you done it. lol I home am now I'm going to have to write an essay.
I have zero and no interest at this time running a cast bullet in a bottle necked case for one thing.
None here have seen the brass I rejected.
Some of it won't even go in the sizer die.
I mean I glady accept brass shot though an M-60, 249 or 240 and size it manage to get it resized on my Redding Ultra Mag press. Then shoot it in my M-14's and AR-10's.
A lot of times some ask here in the swap and sell "has it been shot in an M-60?" they receive a answer and say thank you I'll pass. I get it then.
I'll take any M-60 brass for that matter.
Here's a dead ringer for bad brass.
When we can't read the head stamp through an operating room magnifying glass (a Christmas gift from our doctor friend) it's been loaded so hot.
When the primer has flowed into the firing pin hole.
When I get a lot of 120 and I cut 5 suspected cases in half and notice they are all on the verge of cracking. The rest get thrown away.
Blue green holes completely through the sides of the cases.
When they don't fit into the correct shell holder and the I'll run them on a buffing wheel and they still won't fit.
How about all the berdan brass I have been sent.

[Just Duke]

One more time.

The moral of the story is integrity. ;)

[DanM]

One good indicator that brass is once fired is the 'soot' pattern at the bottom of the primer pocket. If there is a distinct 'Y' pattern of bright brass with three separate small patches of soot, corresponding to the shape of the primer anvil, then the case is likely once fired. Most folks won't bother to deprime cases before tumbling, so multiple fired cases will be all black at the bottom of the primer pocket, even if the case is bright and shiny. Not a 100% reliable rule, but may be helpful.

[John Argent]

Just Finnished reading this thread and found it to be very entertaining with some of the posts but I did find something I definitly agree on

1. You the reloader are responsible for all the rounds you reload, inspect, check and verify everything
2. the seller should be open and HONEST about what you sell dont misrepresent it
for example if I was going to sell some of my brass stash I could honestly claim once fire the range that I worked at was an indoor private
range and shoot house, all ammo was purchased from the range no ammo was allowed to be brought in all is from ICC frangible

The moral here
Buyer " ye takes ye chances"
Seller " dont be a used car salesman that everyone hates"

:-P

[CastingFool]

I wouldn't leave any brass on the ground for someone to pick up. I take it back and sell it at a scrap yard. BTW, I got some brass from my nephew, and he said it came from remanufactured ammo. Even the civilian headstamps had crimped primer pockets. What a pain.

[jonk]

When I sell range brass, I state it as such; "Unknown number of firings, passes visual inspection for cracks or bulges."

A lot hinges on what it was fired out of too, of course.

I hotly contest the notion that 'after 10 firings, scrap it.' I wouldn't SELL brass that I knew had been fired that much, but for pistols, well... my 1911 is still running on my original batch of 500 cases (minus a few that I lost, crumpled, or that cracked- got about 450 left) after 20 reloads. My little .32 acps are well past that with a bag of range pick up I bought at a gun show for $5 that had been fired God knows how many times.

And, just for giggles, my 30-06 cat sneeze cases are now at 125 reloads with no signs of failure, after neck sizing only and annealing after every 10 shots. This is just an experiment, mind you; I don't load them hot, and I normally don't anneal, but every time I take out the gun in question (about 15-20 times a year) I take those 5 cases, loaded with a 180 gr boolit and 5 gr of bullseye. I've only had to trim them once.

However, in general, I totally agree with the sentiment; be honest with the consumer what you are selling. No reason NOT to sell range pick up if you don't need it, just tell the consumer what you are selling, that's all.

[Shiloh]

I guess I have been lucky, buying from members here. The only ones I have really noticed claiming range brass as once fired is from those with a deal cleaning up after a known police shoot or something else that is pretty much a once fired deal.

+1

Shiloh