Why is 9mm such a PITA to shoot cast?

[Arkansas Paul]

What in the world makes the 9mm so difficult to deal with?
I finally got it figured out and am able to go a range session without it turning into a smoothbore. It took a while and I played with different things before figuring out the problem.

My Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt can go hundreds of rounds without needed to remove any lead. My Sig 2022 in .40 can do the same.

I'm not asking what to do. Thank goodness I finally figured it out (thanks in part to you guys' help here). I was just wondering why everyone seems to have issues with it. Is there something about the round that makes it inherently difficult to cast for?

[RobS]

Combination of higher pressures and a case that is tough as nails being so short, narrow and it tapers down toward the head of the brass pretty quickly (boolit swage).

[Smoke4320]

Just started down this road myself. My question is what did you do to solve it on your 9MM
maybe you can save me and others some headaches.
Thanks

[RobS]

This is a good sticky thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[Arkansas Paul]

Smoke, my problem was I had the seating die adjusted down to far, applying too much crimp. It was swaging the boolit down to .356 which is my exact bore diameter. I adjusted the die out where it was barely removing the bell and it is worlds better.
Before, I would shoot 20-25 rounds and it would look like a smoothbore the leading was so bad. I went to the range yesterday and fired 60 rounds and have very little signs of leading. Not perfect, but I can live with it.
I was getting so frustrated, I was about to sell my mold and just buy some j-words. I know, that's terrible. :(

And yes, that sticky is definitely worth a read.

[Lights]

For me the biggest problem was the Lee PTX not sizing the case large enough or deep enough. After I switched to a .38 S&W PTX it all was good.

[ACrowe25]

I've never had a problem with cast. Slugged the barrel, and pulled it to find correct oal.

Went to the range, shot a couple hundred (after a successful work up) and came home to clean. Ran a patch and bam, looked like glass.

These were my own cast 120 TC with bac. I think a lot of issues can come from either hard lube from commercial cast (MBC, etc.) or a failure to slug and get correct boolit fit.

[Love Life]

Size to .357 or .358.
Use a quality lube (I use speed green)

I use a 38 S&W expander
Taper crimp within specs

or.....

Buy the RCBS 124 gr gas checked RN mould, install gas checks, and call it a day.

Both of the above worked for me in Glocks with factory barrels.

[Arkansas Paul]

For me the biggest problem was the Lee PTX not sizing the case large enough or deep enough. After I switched to a .38 S&W PTX it all was good.

I believe it was you who suggested that to me in my thread trying to figure it out. Like I said, it's not perfect now, so I'm going to order a .38 S&W expander plug and give it a whirl.

[groundsclown]

I've never had a problem with cast. Slugged the barrel, and pulled it to find correct oal.

Went to the range, shot a couple hundred (after a successful work up) and came home to clean. Ran a patch and bam, looked like glass.

These were my own cast 120 TC with bac. I think a lot of issues can come from either hard lube from commercial cast (MBC, etc.) or a failure to slug and get correct boolit fit.

I did the same thing minus slugging the barrel.
Glock 19 w/factory barrel
Lyman 120gr TC using straight WW. Not even water dropped.
BAC
sized to .357
Shot 250 rounds last weekend, came home & pulled the barrel, smiled and put it away without so much as a patch thru it....Now my Ruger Redhawk, that's another matter. 25 rounds & it's FILTHY! I suspect thread choke but that's for another post.

[ACrowe25]

I did the same thing minus slugging the barrel.
Glock 19 w/factory barrel
Lyman 120gr TC using straight WW. Not even water dropped.
BAC
sized to .357
Shot 250 rounds last weekend, came home & pulled the barrel, smiled and put it away without so much as a patch thru it....Now my Ruger Redhawk, that's another matter. 25 rounds & it's FILTHY! I suspect thread choke but that's for another post.

Looks like me and you are close in what we do lol. Just picked up a SRH a couple weeks back. Casted and loaded some 245 SWC (GC) with BAC sized to .430 (sluggs to .430 at cylinder and barrel at .429). Shot, ran a patch, smiled.

Nothing better when things work in your favor. Take things slow, think things through, and reward yourself later.

[ACrowe25]

I should add 9mm is straight WW, 44 is straight WW water dropped and GC'd with an Al GC.

[9.3X62AL]

The root causes of difficulties with cast boolits in the 9mm (and the 40 S&W and 10mm) are the dimensions of the die parts in most die sets. These die sets "assume" jacketed bullet usage, which might be all right for some shooters. For us, not so much.

The two largest stones we stumble over are 1) expander spud diameter and 2) taper-crimp application.

1) Expander spud diameters in OEM die sets often run .352" diameters. That might match up to jacketed .355" bullets quite well, but will play hell with cast boolits sized @ .357"-.358" to fit the poetic throats and grooves found in 9mm pistols. I use a Lyman expander spud of .355" (for 38 Special/357 Mag) to process my 9mm cases, and life is better.

2) Taper-crimping of cartridges using cast boolits can pay dividends for feed reliability, but 2 bugbears crop up during this process.

A) There is no possible way to seat a boolit AND apply a taper crimp at the same time properly. Seating dies making that claim are full of excrement. Seat fully FIRST, THEN apply the taper crimp as a discrete die step. To do otherwise invites swage-down of boolit diameter during the seating operation.

B) Over-application of taper crimp WILL swage down boolits, sure as h--l. Take a look at the SAAMI cartridge charts for case mouth diameter, and keep in mind that the boolit you have seated is .002" (or more) larger than OEM diameter. Also keep in mind that 9mm case mouths vary in thickness between makes. "More" is not better, in other words.

The 9mm, 40 S&W, and 10mm run at rifle-like pressures and often use over-fast twists, and both conditions complicate life for boolit casters. Boolit diameters MUST fit the throats & grooves, or you will have a barrel bushed down to 34 caliber in short order. Good fit gives a caster/loader a lot of "cheat", though--once that hurdle is cleared, things improve greatly. Just don't shoot yourself in the foot by squeezing down those boolits you so carefully prepared for the barrel via use of tooling undersized for the purpose. My default setting for 9mm is .357" sizing--92/6/2 alloy--and NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax lube. I can't offer help with tumble-lube boolits, it is outside my experience.

[Firebricker]

I never had any real problems with 9mm but it was due to luck and circumstance. I started casting for 9mm before I found this site so I didn't know much at all of boolit fit bhn and what lubes work better than others. Where my luck came in was since it was 9mm I bought a .356 sizer cast with straight WW because it's what I had and RCBS lube. The lucky part is my gun slugged @ .355 so sized @.356 no problems with the dies.

The WWs were good for the load and the lube worked well. I switched to carnuaba Red when I found Lars here on site better less expensive lube IMO. So really I stumbled on a good combination out of the gate. The only problem a had was after I bought a couple Ks of used brass and learned about bulged cases. I agree a lot of the problems come from gun barrels with bores closer to .357 then if you match it you have die issues like AL pointed out. FB

[fecmech]

I think Al nailed it in regards to die sets. I never had any trouble with the 9MM even with TL bullets because all my expanding was done with Lyman "M" dies and the expander on my CH Auto Champ is essentially the same. Back a few years ago when I had my 9's I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. It is amazing the difference a couple thousandths in bullet diameter can make!

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir, diameter can cover a power of sins.

[Arkansas Paul]

Yessir, diameter can cover a power of sins.

After casting for 2 years, I'm starting to understand just how true that is.

[w0fms]

It's really a "magnum" round by pressure, and fairly high velocity, so harder alloys and/or water quench is needed.

Even with me being 0.002" over the bore, I needed to both TL and put wax in the groove on 9mm to fix all issues. But when I did.. no leading and really accurate. So you can get there. I did. Fairly quickly because of reading this board too...

I'm going to experiment with powder coating now as I've never gotten pan lubing down and my little jig to add wax to the wax groove is slow and a PITA. If the powder coating works I'll certainly let everyone know. But I'd have to agree.. adjust up the diameter of the boolit by 0.001" and work up a new load.. I bet that'll go 75%+ the way to solving the problem....

[Shiloh]

Case expanders are designed for jacketed bullets.
Bores are anywhere from .355-.358
Boolits are swaged down by the case.
An oversize case expander helped me A LOT!!

Shiloh

[williamwaco]

What in the world makes the 9mm so difficult to deal with?
I finally got it figured out and am able to go a range session without it turning into a smoothbore. It took a while and I played with different things before figuring out the problem.

My Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt can go hundreds of rounds without needed to remove any lead. My Sig 2022 in .40 can do the same.

I'm not asking what to do. Thank goodness I finally figured it out (thanks in part to you guys' help here). I was just wondering why everyone seems to have issues with it. Is there something about the round that makes it inherently difficult to cast for?

I have been loading the 9 since about 1970.
I have never found it to be any harder to load than any other cartridge.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION -

Every commercial cast bullet I have ever seen for the 9 was "hard cast" and sized .355.

I don't know why they do that. I would expect the bullet companies to know better.

[Arkansas Paul]

I have never found it to be any harder to load than any other cartridge.

Me either, with j-words. Throw cast boolits in the mix and it was an entirely different situation.

[badgeredd]

Me either, with j-words. Throw cast boolits in the mix and it was an entirely different situation.

FWIW, there have been far more posts in the time I've been on this forum asking for help with the 9mm Luger than any other single cartridge. Mainly because of the reasons Al stated. I have a Browning HP and it was easy but I also have a couple others that weren't quite as user friendly. I don't use hard bullets in the 9.

Edd

[Arkansas Paul]

I don't use hard bullets in the 9.

I too have found that hard boolits aren't necessary. My mix of 50-50 stickons to clip ons is plenty hard enough when sized correctly. I figure that BHN is around 8 or 9 roughly.

[MtGun44]

Never had a bit of difficulty with 9mm. The only two molds I have used are Lee 38-105 SWC
and 356-120-TC. Both at .357 or .358 diam, and lubed with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue.
TC as a separate operation is ALWAYS done with any semi-autos that I load for.

Fit, design, fit, lube, fit and fit are the most important variables.

Bill

[leeggen]

On this sight somewhere there is a great discusion on--------FIT-----FIT------FIT is primary. That thread is long but great information, most of it is about-- yup===FIT!!!!
Thanks to the experiance on here I have had very litte problems in getting my 40 S&W to shoot cast also thanks again for all the expert advise on casting good boolits.
Thanks,
CD

[leeggen]

On this sight somewhere there is a great discusion on--------FIT-----FIT------FIT is primary. That thread is long but great information, most of it is about-- yup===FIT!!!!
Thanks to the experiance on here I have had very litte problems in getting my 40 S&W to shoot cast also thanks again for all the expert advise on casting good boolits.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?166506-What-is-quot-fit-quot&highlight=fit
Thanks
CD

[spfd1903]

Slugged the barrels, no crimp, simple Lee liquid Alox. Tried BHN from 10 up to 15. No leading from Browning Hi-power, Hi-point pistol and Hi-point carbine. Both Lee TL 356-124-TC and Lyman 147 grain projectiles. They all did well with sizing to. 356 accuracy wise and no leading to date. No crimping.

[Arkansas Paul]

No crimping at all? Surely you had to apply enough to remove the bell?

[Piedmont]

One of the ways around the undersized expander leading to cases sizing bullets down is to use a hard bullet to begin with, which is probably part of the reason many of us have found a hard bullet works better. Of course the high pressures suggest a harder bullet too. I got leading in my 9s when using softer bullets and with tumble lubing even when using hard bullets. For me the keys were: 1) use a large enough bullet, 2) make it hard (so I water drop these), and 3) use real lube in the grooves.

[9.3X62AL]

One of the ways around the undersized expander leading to cases sizing bullets down is to use a hard bullet to begin with, which is probably part of the reason many of us have found a hard bullet works better.

This makes a whole lot of sense, right here. One of those "unintended consequences" that works out well.

[Jailer]

One of the ways around the undersized expander leading to cases sizing bullets down is to use a hard bullet to begin with, which is probably part of the reason many of us have found a hard bullet works better. Of course the high pressures suggest a harder bullet too. I got leading in my 9s when using softer bullets and with tumble lubing even when using hard bullets. For me the keys were: 1) use a large enough bullet, 2) make it hard (so I water drop these), and 3) use real lube in the grooves.

This is what I had to do with the 140gr MP boolit even with a modified expander. The shorter 125's work fine but the 140's needed heat treating to keep them from swaging when they were seated.

[w0fms]

I use 75% range lead and 25% WW in my 9mm water quenched. So no, not super hard BHN needed. And I have to agree with the commercial cast comment. I had some old cast 9mm from Speer that I inherited from my dad. When I thought about casting I decided to try those first. Worst leading I've ever had.

You guessed it -- measured 0.355" diameter. I size my cast to .357". With both TL and wax no leading at all. TL alone was mild leading. The commercial? After 50 it took me an hour to clean up the barrel. It almost discouraged me from even trying cast 9mm.

My buddy shot my gun and kept comment on how much more accurate it was than his Ruger. It wasn't the gun... So you can get there...

Will try powder coating soon... I'm hoping that's even a simpler fix...

[milprileb]

The barrel of your pistol dictates what the heck is going on. You can follow all the advice (great as it is from members here ) and still arrive at a stand still with 9mm. If your barrel throat is cut wrong for lead bullets: all the great advice won't help. 9mm is the most finicky caliber to cast and reload for in my book. Do follow all the advice and hopefully you cure the situation before you find out the last resort is your barrel being re'throated.

[aspangler]

I have been loading the 9 since about 1970.
I have never found it to be any harder to load than any other cartridge.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION -


Every commercial cast bullet I have ever seen for the 9 was "hard cast" and sized .355.

I don't know why they do that. I would expect the bullet companies to know better.

I agree one hundred percent. I size to .356 and have NO leading in my Hipoint or my buddies Berreta.

[AmishWarlord]

The secret to 9mm is .358

7692676927

[AmishWarlord]

76930

76933

76934

[Shiloh]

.358 is the magic number for me. .357 works good, .358 is better.

Shiloh

[spfd1903]

No crimping at all? Surely you had to apply enough to remove the bell?
I work with the bell/powder charge setting on the Dillon 550 to get just enough flare to seat w/o lead shaving. The Dillon seating die removes the small flare. The loaded rounds from the seating die drop freely into the three fire arm chambers, so I have not used a crimp die.

[Larry Gibson]

I have been loading the 9 since about 1970.
I have never found it to be any harder to load than any other cartridge.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION -

Every commercial cast bullet I have ever seen for the 9 was "hard cast" and sized .355.

I don't know why they do that. I would expect the bullet companies to know better.

+1

Been loading and shooting the 9mm with cast bullets in numerous handguns and a ew subguns since '70. Never had a lick of problems withmy own cast bullets of 105 - 125 gr when cast of good alloy, sized .356 - .358, lubed with soft NRA lube and loaded over 4 gr Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[Wally]

Have a Taurus 99AF....tried every trick in the book (including a new barrel)and it leads up..with leading throughout the entire length of the barrel. No other pistol leads up like this one that I've ever seen. However it shoots accurately and a few passes with a brush covered with Chore Boy cleans it up with just a few passes. Every other clip full I just swab it out. Also have the sister model 101AF (.40 S & W)...it doesn't lead up at all!

[9.3X62AL]

The other side of my success with the 9mm was mentioned by several posters herein--fairly hard boolits (BHn 14 or so) and softer lubes, Javelina or (now) White Label NRA 50/50. The 92/6/2 alloy used in the 9mm is also used in rifle applications and Magnum revolvers, and has become kind of a "default setting" for a lot of my casting work.

[DukeInFlorida]

Three things for success with any semi auto cast bullet:
1) The right hardness
2) The right sizing - I hate tumble lube non-sized boolits for this reason
3) The right lube

Gas checks, when you can get a gas checked mold, help some of the errors with the above three items.

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm not gas checking 9mm boolits. I'll sell the mold and buy plated first.
I've got it to where I can shoot 100 rounds or so without cleaning it. The traces of lead are just streaks in the rifling grooves, not coating the entire barrel. I'm gonna try the .38 S&W insert for the belling die and see if that takes care of the rest of it.

[MtGun44]

GCs are NOT necessary, although - of course- the will WORK, just expensive, PITA to install and
not necessary at all.

Bill

[fcvan]

I would have to agree that factory gas checks are bloody expensive and shouldn't be necessary for 9mm. I certainly agree with fit being king but my personal experience has not been that a harder boolit always works better. I will agree that it does work better for some folks. A little history.

I learned how to reload from my dad, and one of his buddies, back when I was a teenager in the mid 1970s. We were loading .38 special, .357 mag, and .41 mag with plain based lead boolits. Dad bought all SAECO equipment as they were still in Carpenteria, CA, about 20 miles down the road from us. We scrounged wheel weights and soft lead and lubed with Javalina. I don't recall ever having to deal with leading in the barrel.

In the mid 1980s, I bought my first pistol, a S&W 459. I had no idea that 9mm was supposed to be a hard cartridge to load for. The higher pressure of the 9mm didn't seem to big of a deal as we were loading higher pressure in the .41 with plain based boolit molds. Well, I bought what I could afford which was Lee dies, and the 356-125 2R mold. I didn't have a lube sizer so I started out pan lubing.

Dad's buddy had said that a slightly out of round or oversized boolit would be straightened out a bit during seating and crimping. He also taught me about checking the cartridge in the chamber to make sure it wasn't oversized. I set the expander die to bell enough to not shave the boolit, and the seat and crimp die was set using a factory round. I borrowed the factory cartridge from a buddy as I was starting out with a new gun and once fired brass.

My first loads shot very well considering it was a brand new barrel that hadn't even fired any jacketed rounds. At the time I didn't think about copper fouling being a problem with firing cast boolits. The alloy was reclaimed lead from the range at work where all they shot was swaged hollow based wadcutter .38 special. I lubed with Javalina.

A few months later, I thought I'd pick up a Lee push through sizer (the old style) in .356 diameter. After all, I had read you wanted to go .001 over bore size and the S&W had to be .355 like the book said. Bingo, I got heavy leading. Then, I got the bright idea to take one of my cast boolits, and one sized to .356 and push them through the barrel. The 'as cast boolit' fit better than the .356 sized boolit.

When I finally did buy a Lyman 450, I bought a .358 sizer die. The soft alloy sized at .358 and lubed with Javalina was the ticket to lead free bores and great accuracy. A couple years ago, I bought a .357 sizer to try in a Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel for a Glock 22. My previous loads were fine but I thought I'd try it. I got leading and keyholing like there was no tomorrow. I also tried them in a buddy's stock Glock 17, several other 9mm pistols, and my Marlin Camp Carbine. It was horrible in everything, but I was shooting up the last of the undersized loads I'd made. I traded that .357 sizing die to another member here who wanted it.

Soft range scrap sized to .358 and lubed with BAC my 9mm cartridges works fine in the various 9mm weapons I own or have access to. I bought a 35 PB CheckMaker die for use with some .357 loads but have also used them on several 9mm molds, again sized to .358 diameter. Although the 9mm didn't need them as far as leading goes I could noticeably see tighter groups.

I didn't know 9mm was supposed to be a hard cartridge to load for until I read it here on Cast Boolits. I only knew what I had been taught by my dad and his buddy when I was in high school. I have since learned from this website why my loads worked so well from the beginning. Proper fit and a good lube is certainly a good start, but having a bore free of copper fouling is a must. I have also learned that the Lee 356-125 2R mold I have cast over 500k boolits with is junk and won't hold up to steady use. I've learned that, but the mold hasn't yet.

[ku4hx]

I've been loading cast 9mm since the '70s and it's never been any harder than any other cartridge. For the most part, the drill for any semi automatic cartridge that headspaces on the cartridge mouth is the same. You have to get the cartridge OAL and neck diameter appropriate for the gun in question but after that it's all pretty much just plug and grind load optimization. Considerations for cast also includes optimum bullet diameter, lube and alloy but that's true of all cast boolits in all cartridges.