boolit opinions needed please

[charger 1]

Lets say a fellas just got no choice but to hunt whitetail in a spot where he's going to have to clip the odd small branch,leave,etc. He's cleaned out everything he can, and unless he cluster bombs the place theres no way around it. He's shootin a 45/70 with water cooled ww boolits. He's got two variations. One is LBT's WFN comming out at around 340 grains, or RCBS 405, having the 65 grains more but smaller dia frontal. The other key is that he's got to put the baby down before it gets to another gang nearby, they fill it full of copper and claim it. I'm almost tempted to drive some copper hornady's out of the alaskan at about 2400. That'll keep him from travelling, but they dont fair in the brush to good...Weird question I know, but where I hunt its jungle, and after yeaqrs of lookin under every stone I've found the monsters home. Probly similar to the one on my wall. Probly 400 live weight. So if I could get some of you to please do some armchair huntin with me

[MT Gianni]

With no experience with either bullet, I say go heavy and be sure to break the opposite shoulder on exit. Gianni

[charger 1]

Actual weight 425 and 345 grains
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1023.JPG

[SharpsShooter]

Either is a fine choice at 1400fps or higher. Shot placement is key to the "stop em right there" ideal. For the past 25 years I have used 405's and heavier (usually 530gr) and always gone for a shoulder breaking shot and usually try for both. There is little meat damage and they do not go far. My usual rule is heaver is better if you gotta stop em right now.


SS

PS. Forget the water cooled stuff. Leave them soft for good upset on entry.

[charger 1]

PS. Forget the water cooled stuff. Leave them soft for good upset on entry.



Wonder how quick I can push that 425 without leading if its just air cooled? Its only going 1790 with the load now, it should do that huh?

[38-55]

Charger !,
I hunt in a similar type of situation and I use a gould hollow point ( lyman 457122 340gns) at around 1600 fps. I've never had one fairly hit that has taken more than 20 steps.. Use the load you got if you are confident you can put it where you want it. It will get the job done if you do your part.
Good Hunting
Calvin

[Coastie]

Not quite what you are looking for, but I shot my elk last year with a Remington 405 SP as he was going away at about 75yds. Entry through the left rear "ham" (mid-way between the hip and knee) just in front of the bone (thumb sized hole through the ham) bullet traveled through the body taking a piece of lung and a piece of heart ) exit just behind the front right shoulder taking out a piece of rib - 50 cent hole and tissue damage from the rib fragments. He piled up in 10-15 yds. Finished with a high neck shot under the chin. The bull weight was between 500 and 600 lbs. I like the 45-70. In fact, I just came in from the range. Right on with the 405 gr, but a little low and left with my 500 gr. cast. Make sure you shot enough with what ever you plan to use before you go as at least with my rifle (Marlin Guide)
and open sights the weight seems to make some difference. Good hunting!

[Ricochet]

I don't believe in the "Brush Busting Bullet" theory. I've seen tests in magazines where the heavy, blunt bullets deflected just as badly as light spitzers on hitting small twigs, or small wooden dowels designed to simulate them. Unless you're in a survival situation where you'll otherwise starve, I don't think you should take a shot that's not clear, shoot an animal in the butt, that sort of thing. But either of those bullets will work mighty well on deer, properly placed. No combination of bullet weight or velocity that you can fire from your shoulder will work reliably with a poor hit.

[Blammer]

go heavy and slow. If you do hit a limb the heavy slow should plow through better....

Good luck!

[charger 1]

Its funny, I always thought slow was best. BUT I heard it explained like this. A toy top that is spinning fast can be touched and it wont fall over, but one that has slowed will topple if touched

[charger 1]

I don't believe in the "Brush Busting Bullet" theory. I've seen tests in magazines where the heavy, blunt bullets deflected just as badly as light spitzers on hitting small twigs, or small wooden dowels designed to simulate them. Unless you're in a survival situation where you'll otherwise starve, I don't think you should take a shot that's not clear, shoot an animal in the butt, that sort of thing. But either of those bullets will work mighty well on deer, properly placed. No combination of bullet weight or velocity that you can fire from your shoulder will work reliably with a poor hit.


But would it not make sense that if you took two of the same shape and size, and frontal are the cast would do better than the soft lead front. Maybe I'll say wiz on the meat and nail him to the landscape with a one once bluforce slug at 2000. That'll shut im down I'll bet

[jhalcott]

I kind of agree with Rich on this. Years ago I made a device that consisted of a 30" triangle of 3/4" plywood and a WHOLE bunch of 6 to 8" dowels. HARD WOOD dowels. I'd set the triangle on saw horses at different distances and with a deer target behind it at varying distances. Shot with many calibers and bullet weights, I learned that it WAS possible to miss a deer at 100 yards or less when shooting thru such things as twigs and small branches. The closer to the gun and furthest from the targets were the LEAST accurate. This all came about from a friend saying "Throw a bowling ball at a hedge row, then throw a spear. See which one goes thru better!" Neither according to MY tests.

[Ricochet]

What "makes sense" or "seems like it ought to" doesn't always work out that way. Jhalcott tried it, and anyone who wants to go to the time and trouble can for themselves. I'm just reporting what I've read, with similar test setups to JH's.

[KYCaster]

I agree with Ricochet and jhalcot, there's no such thing as a "brush bucking" boolit....or bullet. A 1/4 in. dia. twig that will disappear in your scope can make the difference between DRT and a gut shot deer that you may never find.

If you have no other choice, wait till you have a clear view of a vital spot through a hole in the foliage before you take the shot. Make sure to allow for the difference between bore and sight height and trajectory.

If you can't get the clear shot, come back tomorrow and try again.

Jerry

[leftiye]

Yep, but a 6mm imp. or a 25-06 (been there, etc.) will flat dissappear where a wadcutter might still fly pretty straight. The wadcutter can slice a nice round hole through those small twigs etc that will flip your long pointies sideways. Ever seen an arrow flip sideways and shatter when it grazes a branch? In the end you've probly got no choice but to use the best thang you can figger out.

And yes, don't do anything patently stoopid, but that's if you can think faster than a computer (you can't even percieve, yet alone think that fast). So, there are times that it isn't apparent except in hindsight that you shouldn't have shot. So, let em go unless you know the shot is pretty well in the clear.

Boolit placement above all, no matter what you hit them with - but an 06 will get through where the 6mm disintegrates. And who can avoid twigs, etc (or even see them) on a running shot? I've had deer filling my scope ( didn't see the brush - it was that light) and had the boolit dissappear where a heavier slug would have hit pay dirt, er, deer, and dead deer too. Twice. I don't want to hear all about maybe, this and that, and ethics the other. There are good running shots in brush that should be taken - if you can shoot well enough to be shooting, that is. And there are boolits that bring home the liver in brush. Just not real heavy brush.

A deflected bu/oollit actually flies in a cone. Its path describes a spiral around the surface of the cone. Once destabilized, the bullet yaws like a football (if it doesn't outright tumble) which has been poorly thrown and this further affects its flight - wind resistance continuing to deflect it as it flies. So the farther from the point of deflection, the less chance of a deflected boolit hitting anything.

For he present situation,I'd recommend the 400 grain Speer. I've seen them open to in excess of .75 caliber. Remember sheer power doesn't matter, it's the damage and energy you leave behind in the game before you kill that tree/mountain behind the deer. A .458 won't do as much damage with a 500 grain bullet made for elephant or a solid (in a deer) as this bullet will do shot from a 45-70. I know this is heresy (to advocate jacketed bullets) on this forum, but this will help keep his deer from leaving the county and someone else getting it. Nice flat nose too.

[charger 1]

I agree with Ricochet and jhalcot, there's no such thing as a "brush bucking" boolit....or bullet.
Jerry


Well I must say I find it hard to believe that a cast boolit wont stand up better to minor hits than a copper. Oh well

There must be a minute of angle calc in all this to. What I mean is that a fellas chances of putting the boolit where he's aimed must increase significantly the farther it is on its journey before hitting said branch. I mean if a boolit goes into a cone of X amount of degrees after hitting a twig, would it not make mathmatical sense that if its only 3 feet from the deer thats a whole lot better than 3 feet from the muzzle. See this ol boy has his trail. Now clearing some crap up to that trail I've done but to totally mutilate the shrubbery on that trail I'm afraid will spook him. Mind you I still got close to 4 weeks

PS;Thanks for all the replies se far fellas. It helps !

[SharpsShooter]

Wonder how quick I can push that 425 without leading if its just air cooled? Its only going 1790 with the load now, it should do that huh?

I have run 20:1 (air cooled) alloy to 1700 without leading with a 520gr cast out of a 1895 Marlin. Recoil is quite brisk and attention gathering. You will be fine. Don't worry about cutting firewood with it. Place your shot the best you can through the least obstructions possible and If in doubt about the outcome simply don't fire.

SS