Is There Any Advantage In Double Tumble Lubing?

[Foto Joe]

Yesterday evening I threw a hundred or so .452 160's into my proprietary tumble lube drum, (an empty Planters Peanut jar) and ran them through the process. As I'm standing them up on the wax paper to dry it occurs to me that 45-45-10 does indeed cover each and every one of them but would there be any advantage to tumbling them again once they dry? I realize that if I size them then I do indeed need to tumble lube again but I haven't been sizing and really at this point don't see any reason to.

Any thoughts from those with more knowledge/experience?

[BBQJOE]

Lube, size, lube.

[44man]

Lube with good lube. TL boolits work great with real lubes.
I am a grouchy old man that hates Alox.

[2wheelDuke]

I don't think it takes long to run the, through the push thru sizer and give them another tumble. I always have a few that take a bit more resistance than the rest. If I ran them as cast, those would be a couple thousandths bigger.

[Foto Joe]

I am a grouchy old man that hates Alox.

I realize that there are more than a few out there that don't have much if anything good to say about ANYTHING that Lee Precision sells but...

45-45-10 is what I use, I don't have a lube sizer nor do I want to plunk down a pretty considerable chunk of change (for me) to set myself up with one. So far in the calibers that I shoot the 45-45-10 is pretty slick stuff when it comes to boolit lube. I realize that there are "better" boolit lubes out there but I'm making due with what works for me. I haven't had any problems with tumble lubing other than a real quick learning curve about straight LLA the first time I used it, i.e. there is such a thing as too much. I'm just curious as to whether there are any advantages to double lubing with 45-45-10?

[Foto Joe]

I don't think it takes long to run the, through the push thru sizer and give them another tumble. I always have a few that take a bit more resistance than the rest. If I ran them as cast, those would be a couple thousandths bigger.

I haven't been sizing. Mine are dropping right at the .452 so I haven't seen the need. If I'm wrong please tell me why.

[Jim]

I realize that there are more than a few out there that don't have much if anything good to say about ANYTHING that Lee Precision sells but...

It doesn't matter what product you talk about, there's always going to be somebody that doesn't like it for one reason or another and will trash it.

"Eat the meat and spit out the bones."

[292]

[QUOTE=Jim;

"Eat the meat and spit out the bones."[/QUOTE]

Good advice

[Wayne S]

One of the TL guru's on the CBA forum suggests heating your bullets in the "warm" setting, my oven goes down to 170* so I put the bullets in a metal pot and when I see 110* I shut the oven off, wait a few min. then take both outside and dump the bullets into a container already having some 40-40-20***. Taking this outside keeps the house from smelling like Alox.
He also suggests using a square or rectangular containers as it helps the bullets to "tumble" when moved around.
*** I mix mine 40-40-20 as the 80+ % humidity here slows the drying process using 45-45-10, even with my "dryer"

[mdi]

Wow! Some of you fellers should re-read the original post. He doesn't size. He asks if two times through his "tumble luber" would be helpful or of any use. :?

I would say it depends on how thick the first coat of alox is. If your lube is thick then naturally a thick coat of lube will be applied and more, or a second coat will be detrimental (smoky, messy). I like to experiment so I dipped one batch (in thinned alox), and double-dipped another bunch and shot them side-by-side. Only difference I noticed was much more smoke with the double-dipped group. When I use 45-45-10, I have to thin the batch I got from White Label, and only use one dip for my 45 ACP bullets...

[Foto Joe]

The big Planters Dry Roasted Peanut jars (plastic nowadays) work great for tumble lubing, they're square and have a large opening. Since my evening snack for years has been whatever fancy beer I happen to have and dry roasted peanuts I have an ample supply of peanut jars. They also work good for brass and finished boolit storage after lubing.

[jmort]

"Wow! Some of you fellers should re-read the original post. He doesn't size. He asks if two times through his "tumble luber" would be helpful or of any use."

I often miss important details in posts. No, not necessary. A little goes a long way.

[Gohon]

I mix my LLA 50/50 with JPW. I've never understood why people add 10% mineral spirits when JPW already contains naphtha which is the same as white mineral spirits. Just the 50/50 mix is very thin itself.

[Foto Joe]

Naptha huh? Probably another good reason not to mix this concoction in kitchen on the gas stove I suppose.

[7Acres]

My LLA concoction is equal parts JPW + LLA + MS. It turns solid at room temp. I nuke it for 1 minute and shake till it's all liquid.

I take my cast boolits and do an initial gentle TL in a ziploc bag. I immediately size them all while still wet. Then they go back in the bag for a little more gentle TLing. Maybe 30 seconds. Then I open the bag and set it on a shelf. Done.

Load when dry the next day.

[Gohon]

My LLA concoction is equal parts JPW + LLA + MS. It turns solid at room temp.

Hmmmm......that is strange indeed. Even in colder winder months mine has never turned solid unless I leave it exposed to the air. It does thicken slightly when cold but just running hot water over the outside of the bottle for about 20 seconds and then shaking the bottle for a few seconds wakes it right up.

[7Acres]

Interesting. It never occurred to me it was odd. JPW is solid at room temp. LLA doesn't pour out at room temp. It kinda glops out instead. So it seemed logical combining the two should result in something that solidifies at room temp. I warm it up so it gets very runny. I like only the thinnest coating.

But I learned everything from this site. So I may have mixed them together incorrectly. I'd be happy to be informed of a better way!


Hmmmm......that is strange indeed. Even in colder winder months mine has never turned solid unless I leave it exposed to the air. It does thicken slightly when cold but just running hot water over the outside of the bottle for about 20 seconds and then shaking the bottle for a few seconds wakes it right up.

[shadowcaster]

Unless you decide to size them, I would think that one coating would be sufficient. It wouldn't hurt anything though if you gave them a second coat.

I too, have not had my 45-45-10 go solid on me. I do have to warm in up to make it pour easily.

Shad

[ku4hx]

Lube, size, lube.

^^^ This. Makes passing them through the die a whole lot easier

[7Acres]

I went out to the shop to see just how solidified it was. It was as liquid as soy sauce! I guess the last time I cast and sized was a couple days after Christmas. Temps in the shop were probably in the 20s. It probably could have used a little heating up back then.

I can't wait till it cools down in the Fall!


Unless you decide to size them, I would think that one coating would be sufficient. It wouldn't hurt anything though if you gave them a second coat.

I too, have not had my 45-45-10 go solid on me. I do have to warm in up to make it pour easily.

Shad

[Foto Joe]

I'm glad you went out and found it liquid, I was wondering if I'd screwed up the formula or something. By the way....if I put this smelly stuff in the microwave and my wife caught me she'd beat me until my ears bled.:veryconfu In the winter when we're snowbirding and I need to clean a Black Powder pistol I learned a long time ago to make sure I didn't spray Ballistol or MooseMilk inside the camper, 45-45-10 is another one that I'm sure I'll be encouraged to use OUTSIDE PLEASE!!

[7Acres]

Agreed! My shop is detached. It's microwave hasn't seen food since who knows when. Sorry for borderline hijacking your thread. As many here have said, lube, size, lube!


...45-45-10 is another one that I'm sure I'll be encouraged to use OUTSIDE PLEASE!!

[prs]

Well, if the stuff was worth a grunt it would stay on the boolits as the sizer squeezes them down.

prs

[mpmarty]

308 win. 7.5X55 Swiss 45/70 45acp 10mm all cast and lubed with 45/45/10 or 50/50 and all work fine. No leading and good accuracy. What's not to like? I've got two Lyman lubrisizers so my choice to tumble lube isn't based solely on cheapness, it works and it's fast and foolproof until they come out with better fools.

[warf73]

Well, if the stuff was worth a grunt it would stay on the boolits as the sizer squeezes them down.

prs

I thought running a boolit thru a sizing die, the sides of the bullet are being scraped off/displaced to the size of the die it’s being pressed thru? Don't know of anything that would stay in place if metal is being displaced by the sizing operation.
People that use 45/45/10 use the lube/size/lube method, are using the first lubing for lubricant to help keep resistance down while running boolits thru the die.
I could be wrong wouldn't be the first time.

Warf

[prs]

Warf, I think you are right IF the boolits are well oversized. Hopefully, one is only sizing a thou or two and then the die should be compressing the lead and leaving the coating if the coating is tough enough. Think about it, if the boolits lose lube from being sized a thou or two and then we shoot them through a bore that is a thou or two smaller yet, where is the lube? I thing the alox based tumble lubes are marginally effective on many rounds. The new Aussie stuff may be a whole different matter.

prs

[rsrocket1]

In the winter, my 45/45/10 is pretty thick so I put it in a sink full of hot water for a few minutes to loosen it up. Now that the summer is here with a vengeance, the stuff is ultra thin 24/7.

I use a gallon Ziplock bag and "massage" lube 4-500 at a time with a nice even coat and very little mangling of the bullets because they aren't banging into each other. The bullets come out so nice that I got into the practice of wiping off the tops of the bullets after loading because they are so shiny and perfect (but they still shoot only as straight as the shooter).

[prs]

rsrocket1 said; "I use a gallon Ziplock bag and "massage" lube 4-500 at a time with a nice even coat and very little mangling of the bullets because they aren't banging into each other." Not that is a CrackerJack of an idea! Thanks.

prs

[44man]

Wow! Some of you fellers should re-read the original post. He doesn't size. He asks if two times through his "tumble luber" would be helpful or of any use. :?

I would say it depends on how thick the first coat of alox is. If your lube is thick then naturally a thick coat of lube will be applied and more, or a second coat will be detrimental (smoky, messy). I like to experiment so I dipped one batch (in thinned alox), and double-dipped another bunch and shot them side-by-side. Only difference I noticed was much more smoke with the double-dipped group. When I use 45-45-10, I have to thin the batch I got from White Label, and only use one dip for my 45 ACP bullets...
I don't size either, put Felix in grooves with my fingers and use the Lee die as a cake cutter to remove excess. Testing shows Felix works on TL boolits like nothing else. Consistent 3/4" groups at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100.
Yes, I have tested all lubes for years for groups. 100% Alox sucks and leads my guns. You need to temper it, why not dump it instead of changing it?
I have a hard head for sure and you can't change that.
Does 45-45-10 NEED Alox or will something else work better? How about safflower or corn oil? How about some lanolin?

[ku4hx]

I thought running a boolit thru a sizing die, the sides of the bullet are being scraped off/displaced to the size of the die it’s being pressed thru?

Given the break in the heat's been replaced with a much cooler rainy "season", last week I cast about 2,200 Lee 120 grain TC 9mm boolits. I lubed them lightly and after drying, I sized them all to .357" in a Lee die. I didn't inspect every boolit, but when poured into my gallon freezer bag for re-lubing, it was easy to see the bright shiny driving bands sans lube. The rest of the surface retained the lube, but those bright shiny bands were clean.

I've lubed boolits about every way possible including the finger smear approach. But I tell you, if I did the finger smearing or pan lubing or even used my Lyman 450 machine, I'd still be working on these 2,200 a month from now. My old arthritic hands just get a mite achy and I'd rather be a-shootin' than a-smearin'.

[BubbaJon]

My LLA concoction is equal parts JPW + LLA + MS. It turns solid at room temp. I nuke it for 1 minute and shake till it's all liquid.
I'll repost my experience with nuking exactly that same mix:


I mix my lube in small batches so I won't waste a lot of materials if I don't like it.
Today I cast a new batch of RD 300 gn boolits and decided I would use the Liquid Alox, mineral spirits and Johnson paste wax formula for tumble lube.
Put the mule snot in an old honey jar, added the mineral spirits and then poured the JP wax into the mix.
Well poop. The wax went all chunky on me - and here's where I screwed up; I decided to nuke it for a few seconds in the microwave. Fellas - 15 seconds and I hear **FOOP**
I'm like "what tha...." I open the door.
It looked like a science project showing how cave formations occur but with geologic time accelerated to mere seconds. Runny, drippy rivulets of waxed mule snot hardening into little stalactites and stalagmites right there in my little microwave ne' science experiment gone awry.
I must have uttered a few choice words because my wife came into the kitchen at that moment - "what's wr..... OH MY GOD!!!!!"
Fellas - even after spending 3 hours cleaning every millimeter with every solvent at my disposal - even after cleaning that microwave to as good as new - momma is still giving me the stink eye and muttering about "boys and their toys".
I'm in the dawg house - I'm sure she's on the phone with my mom who's sure to relate all my past sins so she can flog me with them too - like when I was 10, found a brick of lead, toted it home and tried to melt it in a coffee can on her new gas stove. Did you know coffee cans are soldered? At 10 yrs old I didn't and it was a discovery of monumental proportions.
So y'all mutter a few words to the man upstairs for me. Surely He understands because after all - He made me in His image. Right?

[BubbaJon]

In the winter, my 45/45/10 is pretty thick so I put it in a sink full of hot water for a few minutes to loosen it up. Now that the summer is here with a vengeance, the stuff is ultra thin 24/7.

I use a gallon Ziplock bag and "massage" lube 4-500 at a time with a nice even coat and very little mangling of the bullets because they aren't banging into each other. The bullets come out so nice that I got into the practice of wiping off the tops of the bullets after loading because they are so shiny and perfect (but they still shoot only as straight as the shooter).
I've gotten to dipping mine in the LA-JPW-MS mix and setting them on the wax paper to dry. After loading I also wipe off the nose because it will get on everything and honestly I'm pretty proud of it and want it to look all shiny!

[7Acres]

:happy dance:Wow, BubbaJon! That's rich! :bigsmyl2:

My microwave is out in my shop where I do my reloading. So the wife wouldn't care a bit what I did to it.


I'll repost my experience with nuking exactly that same mix:

[williamwaco]

Size then lube.
Once each.

You can see my results here:

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_111201a_lla_test.htm


.

[Brad Phillips]

BubbaJon, as soon as I read FOOP I felt bad for ya!

[BubbaJon]

:happy dance:Wow, BubbaJon! That's rich! :bigsmyl2:
My microwave is out in my shop where I do my reloading. So the wife wouldn't care a bit what I did to it.
Yeah - I was just shocked that it happened. I literally set the timer for 15 sec - I'd rather do a little, stir, rinse-repeat than burn something. I was almost as po'd that I lost 12 oz of lube... that was my last bottle of Mule Snot.

[trixter]

I have a Star lube/sizer that I use to lube and size some of my 45ACP boolits, that have the deeeep lube groove (H&G 68) clone type boolit, the mold is an MP 452-200g. I use Carnuba red lube, and I use 4.2gr of Bullseye. They shoot accurately and no leading. I also use Lee's TL 452-200 SWC and plain LLA, (lube-size-lube), these also shoot very accurately and no leading also with 4.2gr Bullseye.

Now my question is this; the boolits that come out of the Star are shiny on all sides, and the lube is in the deeeep groove in the middle. The unlubed front band goes down the barrel first, so what would be the difference if I only lube, and size (and not lube again) the Lee boolit; because the first micro-lube band that touches the barrel has no or little lube on it. Not kicking anything but just wondering.

[Foto Joe]

There's a LOT more red lube than LLA. The carnuba will be pushed out of the lube groove and in front of the boolit by the hot gases. Since LLA is pretty much a minimal lube to start with I'd probably like as much coverage as I could get, besides it's pretty quick and easy to tumble 'em again after sizing.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.