Startup issues

[10milg29]

Hey all,
Been reloading for many years now and my 300 Blackout AR has pushed me towards casting. I bought a budget setup consisting of the small Lee furnace, Lee laddle, a Lee 300 Blackout mould, and a Lee 9mm 125 grain mould. I am melting down ingots of twice cleaned wheel weights. I prepped the moulds using alcohol and a Q-tip per a video on youtube. I then used a Bic lighter to apply a layer of soot to mould caverns. I start with the furnace on 7 and lower it to 5/6 after all the lead is melted.

I cannot see to get my 9mm mould to fill out. I always arrive at soft edges on the lube bands and base. The other day I tried and was able to get 8 out of about 50 what I would consider "decent". My 300 Blackout mould seems to fill out fine, with nice sharp features and base. The blackout mould had wrinkles on the bullet bodies though. Other than the wrinkles, I'd consider them perfect.

What am I doing wrong here? The only thing I can think of is maybe my mixture is off and to add some straight lead?

The lead kind of feels like what you'd anticipate mercury feeling like, if that makes any sense. It seems sort of coagulate.

I appreciate any knowledge you can kick a newbie!

[jsizemore]

6th Sticky down on the Cast Boolits page is 'From Ingot to Target'. Read Read Read. A lot of your questions will be answered.

[KYCaster]

Raise your temperature.

In the "Molds, Maintenance and Design" section there's a sticky called "Lee-menting".....tells you everything you need to know about Lee molds.

The smoke isn't necessary.

Good luck and welcome to our home.
Jerry

[ValorsMinion]

Cast hotter and possibly add a bit of tin to your alloy.

[10milg29]

Cast hotter and possibly add a bit of tin to your alloy.

If I go hotter, my lead starts turning brownish and then purple...is that indicative of a problem or normal?

[jsizemore]

It means your alloy is pretty close to pure lead.

[462]

1. Toss Lee's mould instructions in the trash and forget all that they said. As advised above, read the Lee-menting stickies. Following the steps will get a Lee mould casting excellent boolits, without smoking it or applying messy bee's wax to it.

2. Wrinkled boolits are caused by:
a. A mould that has not been completely cleaned.
b. A mould that has not reached its optimum casting temperature.

3. Pre-heat your mould to approximately 400-degrees. A properly cleaned and pre-heated mould will usually produce first cast keepers.

4. If your alloy flows freely, it is hot enough to cast with. Somewhere in the range of 675 to 725-degrees seems to work best for most alloys.

5. Read. Read the stickies. Spend some time in the site's archive, too (link at the bottom of every page). Buy either the 3rd or 4th edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, better yet, buy both editions.

[ValorsMinion]

The colors changing from yellow to brown to blue to purple is due to overheating close to pure lead. I would add some tin to the alloy then to help with fill out.

[10milg29]

The colors changing from yellow to brown to blue to purple is due to overheating close to pure lead. I would add some tin to the alloy then to help with fill out.

What is your suggestion per pound of lead? Where should I obtain the tin? Thanks!

[kweidner]

Check out vendor sponsors here, get some clip on wheel weights and mix with your pure lead. Can get tin here and at roto metals, can also use pewter for a tin source. Probably gonna need some antimony to get the hardness up there as pure is a 5-6 bhn. I would mix with coww first [clip on wheel weights] Tin is awful expensive.

[10milg29]

Check out vendor sponsors here, get some clip on wheel weights and mix with your pure lead. Can get tin here and at roto metals, can also use pewter for a tin source. Probably gonna need some antimony to get the hardness up there as pure is a 5-6 bhn. I would mix with coww first [clip on wheel weights] Tin is awful expensive.
The lead I have is supposedly 100% wheel weights...

[462]

10milg29,

In your first post you said, "I am melting down ingots of twice cleaned wheel weights." A wheel weight alloy doesn't need any added antimony, and arguably it doesn't need any added tin. A pot of wheel weight alloy run at an excessively high temperature will change colors -- turn the temperature down and get the mould up to temperature.

A casting thermometer is not an essential piece of casting equipment, but there are times when it is more than a little useful. I think you're experiencing one of those times.

[KYCaster]

Any molten lead alloy will form oxides on the surface exposed to air. As mentioned above, the color of the oxides can give some hint about the composition of the alloy.

What is the source of your "twice cleaned wheel weights"? Clip on WW or stick on WW....the blue/purple colors indicate a lack of Sn and Sb. If that's the case, you'll have to increase your temp. substantially to get good fill out. Adding Sn will help with fill out, but that alone may not be a satisfactory alloy for the two cartridges you mention. (both relatively high pressure rounds) Clip on WW with an additional 1% Sn is fairly easy to cast and though maybe not ideal, can work well for you.

MORE READING REQUIRED! Check out alloy composition vs. pressure. You'll find a couple of different formulae. While not carved in stone, the discussions will give you some idea of what's required of a suitable alloy and how to go about getting there.

Jerry

[462]

Correction to my post 12: A stick on wheel weight alloy will require added tin and somehow be hardened, by adding antimony, water quenching, heat treating, for example. Clip on wheel weight alloy can be cast as is with excellent results.

[detox]

Casting thermometer is essential. The softer the alloy the hotter the casting temp needs to be (750-800 degrees) for good fillout. Water quench to make COWW boolits harder.

IMO both the 300 Blackout and 9mm (automatics especially) need a harder alloy like Lyman #2 or Linotype. Linotype makes a beatiful (well filled out) boolit at lower casting tenps of just 650 degrees.

[shadowcaster]

1. Toss Lee's mould instructions in the trash and forget all that they said. As advised above, read the Lee-menting stickies. Following the steps will get a Lee mould casting excellent boolits, without smoking it or applying messy bee's wax to it.

2. Wrinkled boolits are caused by:
a. A mould that has not been completely cleaned.
b. A mould that has not reached its optimum casting temperature.

3. Pre-heat your mould to approximately 400-degrees. A properly cleaned and pre-heated mould will usually produce first cast keepers.

4. If your alloy flows freely, it is hot enough to cast with. Somewhere in the range of 675 to 725-degrees seems to work best for most alloys.

5. Read. Read the stickies. Spend some time in the site's archive, too (link at the bottom of every page). Buy either the 3rd or 4th edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, better yet, buy both editions.

++1
As you are already using WW's (clip on I assume) You may need to add just a touch of tin to the mix to achieve good fillout. Also if you are getting the colors you mention, your pot is too hot. Those colors are an indicator of pure lead, but CWW's will do the same thing if you get it too hot. Do you use a thermometer? If not.. buy one.

Shad

[Cherokee]

Assuming you have clip on wheel weights, lower the metal temp a little and increase the mold temp by preheating on a hot plate. I would try this first with your alloy, see if it works. May need to add some tin to help fillout. For my rifles and 9mm I use 2% tin, 3% antimony, which is COWW + some tin. Sometimes I use 3/3, depends on the gun and load.

[bangerjim]

I know I'm gonna get "flamed" for this, but....................the last 3 molds I got from Lee, I DID NOT degrease them...at all. Just lubed the joints & pins with a little beeswax when mold was good and hot at went at it. 1st drop..... all 6 were PERRRRRRRFECT! I think too much emphasis is put on cleaning.....and cleaning.....and cleaning new molds. Sorry guys ....my experienced speaks for itself. Perfect drops each and every time.....1st to last.

As per above comments, you need tin. Your molds are also probably too cold. You can either use a hot plate or stick the end of the mold in the boolit soup to heat it up. If the lead does not stick....the mold is hot enough.

My soup never gets the colors you are talking about. But then, I never cast PURE LEAD.

For all my castings....either bottom pour from the 4-20 or ladle dipping from the Lee Precision 4# melter...... I start off at MAX and then, once everything melts, back it down to 6 to 6 1/2 on the dial. I use absolutely NO fancy PID temp control or thermometers and all my boolits (100's and 100's of 'em) are perfect every time. No partials, no wrinkles, no frosting. Just shiny little projectiles waiting to be PC's and shot.

I guess I just hold my mouth right!!!!! HA...ha. [smilie=w:

bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

[mpmarty]

Clean mold with comet and toothbrush dry completely in oven or some heat source. Don't smoke the cavities it makes undersize boolits. Get a thermometer and cast at around 700 f. preheat mold by dipping in pot or on a hot plate. Cast faster to keep temp of mold up. Don't inspect what you just cast as that lets mold cool off too much. Just cast as fast as you can until you see frosted boolits then slow down a little bit but not too much.

[Hounddog]

Sounds like your lead is plenty hot but your mould is cold. Heat that mould up and you'll get more keepers. Off of recommendations of this site, I use a hot plate to heat my moulds up before casting with them. I have almost all keepers most of the time.

[Jim]

I know I'm gonna get "flamed" for this, but....................the last 3 molds I got from Lee, I DID NOT degrease them...at all. Just lubed the joints & pins with a little beeswax when mold was good and hot at went at it. 1st drop..... all 6 were PERRRRRRRFECT! .....
bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

Done the same thing quite a few times. Only difference is, I use Amsoil Professional Saber two cycle oil.

[dbosman]

The color is telling you it's nearly pure lead or you're metal is really hot.
A thermometer would make things easier.
What might come in to consideration for wheel weights is that they come in different alloys. Some of the stick on wheel weights are mostly lead. Or pure steel. ;-)




The lead I have is supposedly 100% wheel weights...

[10milg29]

I tried again for the third time today. My results were much better. The lead was not hot enough and my mould was too cold. I was able to cast at about 40% retention. The ones culled had slightly rounded bases instead of the nice sharp fully filled ones. Once the mould heated up properly I was very pleased with the results. Am I right in culling the slightly rounded bases, or will they shoot just fine? Any link to rejection criteria for bullets? Thanks!

[MtGun44]

First - Welcome!

Now for the step-by-step cure.

1. Stop believing YouTube.

2. Ask here, or find it in a stickie.

3. Don't waste time smoking mold cavities. Scrube cavities with a toothbrush and Comet.

4. The newbies problems are ALWAYS answered with: "Because your mold is too cold and too dirty."
Cast faster, quit stopping to admire your work. Each filling adds heat, cast FAST at first then
adjust pace to control temp as mold warms up. Expect 20-25 wrinkly casts or even more.

5. Did I mention to stay away from YouTube? At least until you know enough to tell if the guy is
full of beans or knows something. You will get the straight story here.

Have fun, this is a rewarding hobby.

Bill

[10milg29]

First - Welcome!

Now for the step-by-step cure.

1. Stop believing YouTube.

2. Ask here, or find it in a stickie.

3. Don't waste time smoking mold cavities. Scrube cavities with a toothbrush and Comet.

4. The newbies problems are ALWAYS answered with: "Because your mold is too cold and too dirty."
Cast faster, quit stopping to admire your work. Each filling adds heat, cast FAST at first then
adjust pace to control temp as mold warms up. Expect 20-25 wrinkly casts or even more.

5. Did I mention to stay away from YouTube? At least until you know enough to tell if the guy is
full of beans or knows something. You will get the straight story here.

Have fun, this is a rewarding hobby.

Bill
Thanks, my previous experiences were causing me to get discouraged. Today gave me a 2nd wind. Any suggestions for cull criteria? Any links? I don't want to cull bullets with slightly rounded bases if they are still able to be used.

My mixture is straight wheel weights. I did the "hammer test" today on a bullet and it survived quite well.

[waksupi]

You can use the ones with bad bases, if you don't mind them going where they want to go, rather than where YOU want them to go. Keep in mind, to do it right, cast boolits are the advanced graduate course in handloading. If you want to skate through, stick with jacketed bullets.

[10milg29]

You can use the ones with bad bases, if you don't mind them going where they want to go, rather than where YOU want them to go. Keep in mind, to do it right, cast boolits are the advanced graduate course in handloading. If you want to skate through, stick with jacketed bullets.
Lay off the sarcasm if you would. I asked a simple question, in hopes of receiving professional responses.

[waksupi]

Lay off the sarcasm if you would. I asked a simple question, in hopes of receiving professional responses.


That is a 100% straight answer.

[dverna]

Thanks, my previous experiences were causing me to get discouraged. Today gave me a 2nd wind. Any suggestions for cull criteria? Any links? I don't want to cull bullets with slightly rounded bases if they are still able to be used.

My mixture is straight wheel weights. I did the "hammer test" today on a bullet and it survived quite well.

Yes, you can shoot the ones with rounded bases IF you limit the range to 50'. I shot thousands I bought from a guy (that were cheap) for timed and rapid fire practice. Try 50 and see what happens - it is not an expensive test and you will learn something. If you are a high expert or master class shooter you may discern a difference in accuracy at short range but most shooters will not. If you are shooting CAS, they will work OK as targets are only 7-10 yards and big. As you can see, your application and skill level will affect the answer.

At 50 yards and above they will not shoot well.

[MT Chambers]

You need to cast hotter and cast faster, you should only have rejects with the first few bullet drops, you can slow the pace down when all are "keepers", def. use a hotplate!

[popper]

IMHO, I'd recycle the bad ones. Gives you practice at casting and culling. Why waste primer & powder and frustrate yourself with projectiles that don't go where you want? With the suggestions here and 4 or so casting sessions you should get a very low reject rate.

[10milg29]

IMHO, I'd recycle the bad ones. Gives you practice at casting and culling. Why waste primer & powder and frustrate yourself with projectiles that don't go where you want? With the suggestions here and 4 or so casting sessions you should get a very low reject rate.
I guess I simply need to keep perfecting the craft and reduce the cull percentage below the current 60%. Thanks for the response!

[Muddydogs]

I know I'm gonna get "flamed" for this, but....................the last 3 molds I got from Lee, I DID NOT degrease them...at all. Just lubed the joints & pins with a little beeswax when mold was good and hot at went at it. 1st drop..... all 6 were PERRRRRRRFECT! I think too much emphasis is put on cleaning.....and cleaning.....and cleaning new molds. Sorry guys ....my experienced speaks for itself. Perfect drops each and every time.....1st to last.

As per above comments, you need tin. Your molds are also probably too cold. You can either use a hot plate or stick the end of the mold in the boolit soup to heat it up. If the lead does not stick....the mold is hot enough.

My soup never gets the colors you are talking about. But then, I never cast PURE LEAD.

For all my castings....either bottom pour from the 4-20 or ladle dipping from the Lee Precision 4# melter...... I start off at MAX and then, once everything melts, back it down to 6 to 6 1/2 on the dial. I use absolutely NO fancy PID temp control or thermometers and all my boolits (100's and 100's of 'em) are perfect every time. No partials, no wrinkles, no frosting. Just shiny little projectiles waiting to be PC's and shot.

I guess I just hold my mouth right!!!!! HA...ha. [smilie=w:

bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

I agree with this post mostly. I read all the stuff about leementing molds and all the other stuff. Currently I have 8 Lee molds and all I have done is wash them in hot soapy water with a scrub brush and went to casting. All the molds turn out great bullets within specs. If after you get the lead and mold temp up and are still having problems or the bullets are not turning out like they should then leementing is probably in order.

For the OP I would say your lead and or mold is not up to temp. Get a thermometer because without one its all just a guess.

[MtGun44]

The base is the driving end. If it has a 1/64 radius or less on the edge it will fly OK for 15 yd shooting,
much more than that and you will not have much success, although there is a wide variation in personal
definitions of "accurate" with pistols. Some are fine with 4" at 25 yds, others want 1" at that range.
The front makes essentially zero difference in accy.

Pure sharp base edges may require you adding a couple of percent of tin to the mix.

Bill

[Echo]

Another indicator of too-hot mold/sprue plate is if the lead runs off the plate like water, rather than making a nice sprue. Tip the mold upside down and put it on a sopping-wet sponge and let it steam for a few seconds.
In answer to your OP, I suggest added Sn. I have bought solder on eBay for $10/lb of Sn delivered - 20 lbs of 50/50 solder is 10 lbs of Sn, so would command a total cost (to me) of $100, and would really take care of LOTS of WW's. Lead-free solder is available @Ace Hdw, and elsewhere, but it pretty dear, like $18-20/lb, but might be the thing for you, since it will provide 2% Sn for 50 lbs of WW's, and that's a lot of boolits!

[Echo]

The base is the driving end. If it has a 1/64 radius or less on the edge it will fly OK for 15 yd shooting,
much more than that and you will not have much success, although there is a wide variation in personal
definitions of "accurate" with pistols. Some are fine with 4" at 25 yds, others want 1" at that range.
The front makes essentially zero difference in accy.

Pure sharp base edges may require you adding a couple of percent of tin to the mix.

Bill

Bill is right on with this post - the base is the rudder of the boolit, and should be sharp and square. Any thing else is a cull (for me). If all your shooting is within 15 yards, no drama. Otherwise, cull the round-heels.

[10milg29]

The base is the driving end. If it has a 1/64 radius or less on the edge it will fly OK for 15 yd shooting,
much more than that and you will not have much success, although there is a wide variation in personal
definitions of "accurate" with pistols. Some are fine with 4" at 25 yds, others want 1" at that range.
The front makes essentially zero difference in accy.

Pure sharp base edges may require you adding a couple of percent of tin to the mix.

Bill

Great response, thanks!

[500MAG]

Lay off the sarcasm if you would. I asked a simple question, in hopes of receiving professional responses.

He wasn't being sarcastic. Your frustration showed in your posts. I have been loading and casting for over 30 years. I still get wrinkled boolits from time to time. Do I know why? Yes. Of course, I get less than when I started. For now, stop worrying about wrinkles. Load some of those bad boys and shoot them. It will come faster than you think.
You think getting that perfect boolit is hard? Wait till you get hung up on leading, sizing & lubing.

[Wayne Smith]

Some boolits are designed with a 'rounded' base. These molds are cut that way. The base is perfectly flat and perfectly circular. When that boolit leaves the muzzle the gasses escape evenly around the base.

Rounded bases on boolits that are not designed that way are not consistent, not perfect, and not necessarily round. Therefore when they leave the muzzle of the gun the escaping gasses behind them are not equal and this steers the boolit sideways, or up and down. Unless you have a BB (bevel base) mold toss back anything without a perfectly square corner on the base.