Win 94 30-30 with Hunters Supply .311 165 gr over Unique

[handyman163]

Greetings all. New guy (first post) but have been lurking for quite a while. I searched around here and other sites, but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. Hopefully y'all can help.

I've been reloading for my 30-30 Win 94 with great success - no issues whatsoever with Speer 150gr HCFN over IMR4895 and also 150 gr lead FNGC bought locally over 9 gr of Unique. I ran out of those and ordered some Hunters Supply 165gr .311 dia bullets from Midway (link below). I loaded up 3 of these over 9gr unique and they don't just plunk into the chamber like the others I've loaded. I'm crimping into the groove with a Lee FCD (top of the groove), and the last 1mm is tight but easy to push the round into the chamber with a finger (need the extractor to get it out) but one of the 3 rounds gets tight about 3mm from being fully chambered. I put my caliper on the bullets just above the case, and the tightest one is .311 or tad over and the other 2 are .3105 (less than .311) so I'm guessing it's just this difference that is why one is different than the other 2. The 150 gr gas-checked bullets I was using were .309, and they didn't have this issue at all nor do the .308 jacketed bullets I've loaded (or factory ammo). The lever will close fully with all 3 rounds in the chamber and then open without any noticeable force, but I'm tentative about firing these or loading any more of the .311 bullets until I can get an opinion on if what I'm seeing is an issue to be concerned about. The bullets that are tight do not show signs of engraving by the rifling. If the bullet is tight in the chamber for the last 1-3mm but isn't engraved by the rifling, is it ok to fire these?

Link to the bullets:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046467736/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-30-caliber-311-diameter-165-grain-lead-flat-nose

[725]

Have you been trimming the OAL of your unloaded cases? It is very important to have the case length at spec dimension. Too long creates a bad circumstance, often evidenced by the same type of difficulty you have described. Just my dos centavos.

Welcome aboard, by the way. You'll like this place.

[handyman163]

I have trimmed them using the Lee case trimmer (length set by the pin as part of the device) on all of the cases prior to loading. That did help previously when firing the closer to factory loads in the jacketed bullets. I was getting variation and the crimp location was inconsistent when I wasn't trimming, but I don't think that's it here. I think it's these new bullets at .311, but not positive it's only the diameter - could be the bullet shape.

I may mark one up with a marker around the crimp and the entire bullet and chamber them and see where the rubbing may be. It's not bad since they will chamber and aren't getting stuck, but I'm just wondering if they're safe to fire and load more.

[popper]

May be a harder alloy in the HS CBs, case doesn't swage them down a tad. If they chamber and you can extract them, shoot them.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Sounds like they are bumping into the rifling. Some of us on here load to ingrave the rifling. You should be ok to shoot them. Your load is good with 9 gr. Unique. If you feel uncomfortable with them just seat them a little deeper.

[handyman163]

I can't push the tightest one into the chamber with my index finger, but working the lever will get them to chamber and extract. I was not sure about where you define "if they chamber" since they certainly don't plunk in all the way to the rim and don't fall out when I aim the gun up with the lever and bolt open as my other CB and jacketed loads do and like factory rounds do.

What's concerning me is pressure building too fast because they would already be in contact with the chamber when the shot would be fired. This is a pistol powder round at fairly low velocities, but being a faster powder may make that pressure spike worse than would a slower burning rifle powder. Am I thinking about this correctly, or is it truly nothing to worry about?

[1Shirt]

Doubt that 9 gr. of Unique under 165 would give you excessive pressure even if you were seated into the lands.
1Shirt!

[RickinTN]

Check the front driving band for "scratches" running from front to back on one of the rounds you have chambered and extracted. If this is your first try with bullets measuring .311 my guess is you have a throat that is about .310". I think you would be fine in firing them with your Unique load. If you do find those scratches (very small, you'll have to look close) you are using a bullet that is slightly larger than the throat on your rifle.
Good luck,
Rick

[Scharfschuetze]

Not all cartridge cases are perfectly uniform and perhaps you have a couple of them that have slightly thicker necks than the average in your lot of cases. That coupled with the .311 bullet and possibly a tight neck in your rifle's chamber may be causing the recalcitrant chambering.

Short of taking a chamber cast, measure the loaded rounds' neck diameters with both the .308 Speer bullets and the .309 cast boolits (when you get some more) and with the cases that are hard to chamber with the .311 bullets. While just .002" or .003" of difference doesn't sound like much, it may be the culprit when combined with the other two variables. Measure at three points on the necks and get an average diameter of the cases that freely chamber and those that don't. I've prepped a lot of cases for long range match shooting and even the best quality cases can have some uniformity issues in the neck.

One other thought is your case length. A too long case may be causing a bulge just behind the crimp after that last phase of loading. Look at those cases causing the trouble and see if perhaps such a bulge exists. While this issue normally surfaces with jacketed bullets, it might be a contributor here too.

[popper]

Mine is a 336 & sometimes I have to rack the lever again to get the round fully chambered. If the lever will chamber it and extract it, you are g2g. 10 gr is close to tops with unique (not due to pressure) - you're not near there.

[runfiverun]

it ain't the nose.
I have this mold and it barely makes .299.
you are most likely bumping the drive band they are perfectly safe to shoot this way.


ohh 1600 is a bit ambitious with this mold 12-1400 is more like it.

[detox]

Is the chamber and barrel clean and free of carbon and lead fowling?

[cheetah]

All of what Scharf said and emphasize case length. I use a few different HS in a Contender and even the heaviest draggers are fine. Bullets at .311 (which most of his are) along with some lube and ash will seem too snug but I haven't seen a problem and my gun throws a good primer burr indicator. For what it's worth - in a ten twist anyhow, there's a lot of easy two moa under 1200-1250.

[handyman163]

It seems to be rubbing just behind the crimp - all of these are using winchester cases (didn't say that before), and I may be using a little too much crimp since I didn't reset it after crimping some of the .308 and .309 bullets. I suppose that could cause a little bulge, but I am using the Lee FCD, so maybe not.

I get the consensus that it's fine since they're only a little snug, so last night, I loaded up some FC cases I had prepped, and wouldn't you know it - without changing anything, they plunked into the chamber perfectly just like a factory round.

I'm good to go without looking into changing much. I'll start with backing off the crimp a bit if it helps, but will go shoot these and see.
Thanks to all of the advice. This is a great place!

[unique]

Seating the bullet deeper in the case will raise pressure higher than when lead bullet is seated into rifling. Everything is a tradeoff in this world.

[nanuk]

Seating the bullet deeper in the case will raise pressure higher than when lead bullet is seated into rifling. Everything is a tradeoff in this world.

that simply is not true with bottleneck cartridges

an old wives tale that has been debunked with actually testing

seating a bullet deeper will LOWER pressures (up to a point, I'd assume as you could jam that puppy all the way in)

[Sensai]

It sounds like you have found the problem with the crimp bulge. That will definitely make the round harder to chamber/extract, but has little to no effect on firing. Did you have any leading with the .309 cast? If the .311 fits the throat OK chances are that the .309 left you a little something in the first third of the barrel. It's worth the effort to check it out. Best Wishes, Gary

[pls1911]

Another solution is to run the finished cartidges through a full length profile die, which should smooth out any non-critical inconsistencies.

[unique]

that simply is not true with bottleneck cartridges

an old wives tale that has been debunked with actually testing

seating a bullet deeper will LOWER pressures (up to a point, I'd assume as you could jam that puppy all the way in)


Details, details. The only thing that matters is details...

With faster powders I am pretty certain you will get higher pressures with deeper seated cast boolits. Now them there copper thingees sitting in rifling are apt to cause higher pressures because starting pressure is much higher.

[handyman163]

I fired the cartridges in question and had no issue whatsoever. I'm going to back off the crimp a little and see if that smooths out the loads with Winchester brass, but I'm happy with how they turned out when shooting them. I've yet to clean the barrel after firing them Friday afternoon, but did look down the barrel and didn't notice any leading.

Sensai,
I was actually surprised that the .309 bullets didn't seem to lead the barrel at all, that I could see. Perhaps a flake or 2 when I ran the brush with Hoppes down the barrel afterward, but they were very tiny flakes.

I love these reduced loads in 30-30 since I'm not a hunter and mostly a pistol shooter. I have a steel AR500 target that I can shoot with full-house 30-30 loads at 100 yds, but I shoot at several places that don't have even a 50 yd line of sight so those aren't an option. The reduced loads can be from any distance on that target and not hurt a thing.

Thank y'all for all of your help.