Cast bullets being squeezed down by case...

[Jumbopanda]

I recently posted a thread about expander plugs, and in it I stated that I use custom plugs sized 0.001" under bullet diameter to minimize bullet runout and deformation. Previously I had been loading gas checked .310" bullets with a 0.309" plug. Today I created a new plug that is similar to those in Lyman M dies; that is, it has an extra step before the flare portion that expands a little bit over the bullet diameter to help align it.

The actual neck diameter of the cases after being expanded measured 0.308"-0.3085"; just a hair under the plug size. Today I tried loaded some plain-based 0.310" bullets and found that no matter what I did, the bullet would end up getting sized down to 0.308"-0.3085" after I pulled it out of the case. The gas checked bullets never had this problem, presumably because the gas checks would protect the bullet from getting sized down as it is being seated. Is there any way to prevent this from happening to a plain based bullet? These bullets were cast using an alloy of 10 parts COWW mixed with 1 part foundry type (roughly 2% tin and 4% antimony).

[dromia]

How many times fired are the cases?

They may require annealing, that could then effect the size of expander plug required.

[Jumbopanda]

How many times fired are the cases?

They may require annealing, that could then effect the size of expander plug required.

The cases are mostly once fired, but they are 300 Blackout formed from 5.56, so there would likely be some work hardening in involved. I thought that I was just being overly picky about the expander plug issue since most reloaders just use whatever their die sets come with while I'm over here trying to keep it within 0.0005" of the desired size...



Maybe I'll just have to start using 0.311" bullets and let them get sized to 0.310" by the case. :violin:

[Jumbopanda]

Well I just tested a heat treated bullet and found that it would not be sized down even after being seated and pulled twice. So I guess bullet hardness does make a big difference here.

I don't mind heat treating my bullets, but I'm still unsure if I can do it and still apply the Hi-Tek coating. Applying the coating before heat treating would mean that the coating gets baked for an hour during the heat treat process, turning it black and possibly making it brittle. Applying it after would simply cause the bullets to be annealed while the coating is being cured. :-? That's a topic for another thread though.

[Vlad_III]

I use custom plug .310, that is similar to those in Lyman M dies, for bullets calibrated to .3102

[Shiloh]

How many times fired are the cases?

They may require annealing, that could then effect the size of expander plug required.

Great question Dromia.

I anneal every 6-8 firings. Haven't split a case in a long time since doing this. Particularily with Krag brass.

Shiloh

[mdi]

As a couple fellers already mentioned, prolly should try to anneal the cases. I think I would got this route rather than using bullets oversize to be swaged in the cases. Besides, it's prolly easier to anneal than adjust bullet size...

[Jumbopanda]

I've never annealed cases before, but I've done a bit of research about the various methods of doing so. I don't think I want to purchase a $400+ machine right now, so I'm thinking that the "pan of water" method might be the way to go for me. I don't need absolute perfect consistency because these are not bench rest cartridges; I just need the cases soft enough so that they'll stop shrinking my bullets.

[blikseme300]

I form my own 300blk cases and annealing is one of the steps prior to loading. The part of the case that forms the new neck is hard to start with and becomes harder when formed down to 30cal. You can build your own annealing machine for about $200 but not everybody has the time and access to the tools. I have seen the water in pan method and it probably would work too.

[Frozone]

Well according to MOST - the problem is: You are using a LEE factory crimp die - stop immediately.

What! you're not using one? Well then, start now and then quit, that will solve ALL your cast boolit swaging problems.

On a (slightly) more serious note: The nice thing about casting is, you can use the lead in your pot to anneal your cases.
set it hotter than you normally would ( ~ 1000º), dip the case in mineral oil or wipe it with an oily rag, then dip the case mouth in the hot lead about 1/4" for 5 sec.

[Airman Basic]

Years ago, I annealed 308 cases necked down to 243 by dipping the neck and shoulder of the case in oil, then holding the head of the case with bare fingers in molten lead 'til it got too hot to hold. Flick the case free of lead and air dry. Worked well.

[44man]

Try just water dropping the boolits. It is what I do for tight case tension in my revolvers.

[blackthorn]

Annealing case necks by dipping them into molten lead that is held at about seven hundred degrees ‘F’ works well. Wheel weight alloy, which is approximately eighty nine parts lead, one part tin and ten parts antimony, melts at six hundred and nineteen degrees ‘F’ so you can safely set your lead alloy temperature at seven hundred degrees ‘F’. The use of a thermometer will take any guesswork out of the process. The reason for using lead for annealing is to keep the temperature low enough for proper uniform annealing, and that is simply not possible using the torch method. With a torch the case is often heated on one side more than the other, temperatures are not readily repeatable from case to case, and in falling over into the water, one side is quenched before the other.

To minimize the likelihood of lead ‘soldering’ itself to the brass case it is best to use as close to pure lead as possible (although any lead alloy will work). Anneal your cases with the fired primers left in, as that forms an airlock that keeps lead away from the inside of the case. With respect to annealing cases using molten lead, basically you: set the thermostat on your pot at seven hundred to eight hundred degrees ‘F’ pick up each case by the head and dip the neck of the cases about a quarter-inch into some powdered graphite or light oil (vegetable oil is fine). The oil keeps lead from sticking to the brass but, any lead that does stick is easily removed by a quick twist in steel wool while the case is still hot. Shake off any excess oil, dip the neck, shoulder, and about a quarter-inch of the case body into the molten lead and just as you begin to feel an uncomfortable degree of heat in your finger tips, drop the case into water. If you hold the cases in some other way than with your bare fingers, leave them in the molten lead from eight to twelve, but not more than fifteen seconds. When the case is hot enough that the lead does not cling to it, it is annealed. Pull the case up out of the lead, tap on the side of the case to remove any bits of lead (if the lead is really sticking, the case isn't annealed!), then drop it mouth down (straight) into a container that is mostly full of ice water. Following the anneal, it would be wise to closely inspect the inside of the case both visually and with a bent paper clip just to make sure there are no lead drippings adhering to the inside the case.

If you are left-handed, have the cases on the right side, the lead in the middle, and the ice water on the left. The cases go only one direction, to the left, and you use only one hand. If you are right handed, reverse the set-up. Because it only takes a few seconds per case, you can anneal hundreds of cases in an hour with this method. After the annealing process, remove the cases from the water, shake them out and use a piece of bronze wool to clean the annealed portion. This removes any residual lead and/or burned oil. Then, dry and tumble the cases to remove any traces of residual oil and they are ready to process.

[blikseme300]

Well according to MOST - the problem is: You are using a LEE factory crimp die - stop immediately.

What! you're not using one? Well then, start now and then quit, that will solve ALL your cast boolit swaging problems.

On a (slightly) more serious note: The nice thing about casting is, you can use the lead in your pot to anneal your cases.
set it hotter than you normally would ( ~ 1000º), dip the case in mineral oil or wipe it with an oily rag, then dip the case mouth in the hot lead about 1/4" for 5 sec.

How does the Lee FCD swage rifle boolits seeing as it is a collet crimp?

[ReloaderEd]

The Lee fractory crimp die can size bullets down in diameter inside the case neck but if adjusted correctly it wont do that. However, I have used it to size .312's down to .309 on purpose. whatever works for the best accuracey. then write down the procedure so you wont forget it five years from now. be safe

[MT Chambers]

I agree with Frozone, get rid of the Lee factory crimp die.

[Jumbopanda]

Frozone was joking...obviously the collet style FCD for rifles isn't the same as the FCD for pistols. And either way I wasn't using one.

[Jumbopanda]

Annealing case necks by dipping them into molten lead that is held at about seven hundred degrees ‘F’ works well. Wheel weight alloy, which is approximately eighty nine parts lead, one part tin and ten parts antimony, melts at six hundred and nineteen degrees ‘F’ so you can safely set your lead alloy temperature at seven hundred degrees ‘F’. The use of a thermometer will take any guesswork out of the process. The reason for using lead for annealing is to keep the temperature low enough for proper uniform annealing, and that is simply not possible using the torch method. With a torch the case is often heated on one side more than the other, temperatures are not readily repeatable from case to case, and in falling over into the water, one side is quenched before the other.

To minimize the likelihood of lead ‘soldering’ itself to the brass case it is best to use as close to pure lead as possible (although any lead alloy will work). Anneal your cases with the fired primers left in, as that forms an airlock that keeps lead away from the inside of the case. With respect to annealing cases using molten lead, basically you: set the thermostat on your pot at seven hundred to eight hundred degrees ‘F’ pick up each case by the head and dip the neck of the cases about a quarter-inch into some powdered graphite or light oil (vegetable oil is fine). The oil keeps lead from sticking to the brass but, any lead that does stick is easily removed by a quick twist in steel wool while the case is still hot. Shake off any excess oil, dip the neck, shoulder, and about a quarter-inch of the case body into the molten lead and just as you begin to feel an uncomfortable degree of heat in your finger tips, drop the case into water. If you hold the cases in some other way than with your bare fingers, leave them in the molten lead from eight to twelve, but not more than fifteen seconds. When the case is hot enough that the lead does not cling to it, it is annealed. Pull the case up out of the lead, tap on the side of the case to remove any bits of lead (if the lead is really sticking, the case isn't annealed!), then drop it mouth down (straight) into a container that is mostly full of ice water. Following the anneal, it would be wise to closely inspect the inside of the case both visually and with a bent paper clip just to make sure there are no lead drippings adhering to the inside the case.

If you are left-handed, have the cases on the right side, the lead in the middle, and the ice water on the left. The cases go only one direction, to the left, and you use only one hand. If you are right handed, reverse the set-up. Because it only takes a few seconds per case, you can anneal hundreds of cases in an hour with this method. After the annealing process, remove the cases from the water, shake them out and use a piece of bronze wool to clean the annealed portion. This removes any residual lead and/or burned oil. Then, dry and tumble the cases to remove any traces of residual oil and they are ready to process.

Could I use powdered mica instead of graphite/oil? I have a big bag of it and it seems like it would be cleaner than oil, and cheaper than graphite.

[blackthorn]

Could I use powdered mica instead of graphite/oil? I have a big bag of it and it seems like it would be cleaner than oil, and cheaper than graphite.

I really don't know, try a few and see, easy enough to switch if it don't work.

[longbow]

I found the same issue with my .303 brass sizing down the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. which has fairly narrow driving bands. Annealing brass helped but after a bit of thinking (I can be slow at times) it occurred to me that I was using RCBS dies to size down brass shot in a much oversize Lee Enfield chamber and bore. Boolits are sized to 0.315" to suit the throat so sizing those down in dies intended for factory bullets at 0.311" to 0.312" is a bit much!

I got a Lee Collet die (I was only neck sizing anyway) and made a mandrel to set inside neck diameter at 0.313" to suit the 0.315" boolits instead of the RCBS 0.310". That worked well for me ~ less neck tension, no boolit sizing by brass and less working of case necks. I do anneal regularly too. Nothing fancy, just a propane torch flame until the brass changes colour.

Longbow

[mpmarty]

How does the Lee FCD swage rifle boolits seeing as it is a collet crimp?
It doesn't. Only the stupid pistol straight wall crimp die does the damage.