Burner problem or just the nature of a 20lb propane tank

[7Acres]

I'll be smelting away and I can see that the tank is almost empty. Maybe 3" of frost at the bottom of the tank. And I can't get the volume I need to keep the lead from freezing at the top. No matter how high I turn up the burner I can't get any more BTUs out of my rig. The burner I have is "Bayou Classic 7850 0-30 PSI Adjustable High-Pressure Propane Regulator". This has happened enough times to me now that I'm thinking it's just the nature of a 20lb propane tank. Maybe the PSI in the tank tapers off towards the end. But I figured I'd ask just in case I have a crummy burner. If this is a burner issue can you recommend a burner that doesn't have this problem?

Thanks!

[Springfield]

Shaking the tank helps, bit I also lose pressure when the tank gets low. I assume you also have a high pressure regulator? If it was a low pressure you probably wouldn't have the problem, like on your average Barbecue grill.

[7Acres]

Thanks, Springfield! Yes, it's a high pressure regulator. I wonder... Does anybody here like smelting with a 100lb tank to get around this problem of exchanging not-quite-empty tanks?

[retread]

When the tank is being used at high demand it starts to ice up and restrict flow through the tank valve. I solved this problem by putting the tank in a plastic container filled partially with hot water. That seems to be enough to solve the problem.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I do not exchange my tanks , and I use a old plumbers burner with a regulator on it , has never seemed to freeze up and runs till empty and time to refill . I like the idea of warming it though . I would like to get the bigger tank , for multiple uses around the place .

[merlin101]

When the tank is being used at high demand it starts to ice up and restrict flow through the tank valve. I solved this problem by putting the tank in a plastic container filled partially with hot water. That seems to be enough to solve the problem.

You beat me to it! Just warm the tank up some by setting it in the sun, or set it up on something like a 5 gallon bucket and move it a little closer to your burner.

[7Acres]

Great advice! Thanks for helping me understand what's going on here. I don't have hot water out where my smelter is so I'll move the tank close enough to the smelter to let the heat radiate and keep the tank and regulator warm.

Is the ice build up in the tank's valve, regulator's valve or both?

[shadowcaster]

I use a 100 pound bottle, it lasts a long time. I have never had any freeze up issues, but even the 100 pounder when it gets low, pressure will peter out and I know it's time to refill. Once you have a good 20 pound tank with the newer valve, I have found that it is better to refill them instead of exchanging them. You get more propane and the refill is cheaper than an exchange. Often times when you make an exchange, the bottles are only filled to about 60 % and when I have them refilled they fill them to capacity. When your 20 pounder gets low, move it over to your BBQ to finish it off.

Shad

[Jeffrey]

I had a similar problem, addressed in this thread:

My orifice was clogged!

My rig for smelting / casting is a propane fired single burner Coleman stove under a two quart stainless steel pot. The other day while trying to cast fishing sinkers, I wasn't getting the heat I was used to.
Picking up and shaking the propane bottle - feels close to empty. Changed the bottle, fired the burner, no better - hmmm. Disconnecting the piping from the burner, an oily, smelly stuff came out. Smelled like propane (odorant?).
Long story short I ended up removing the orifice from the valve assembly and using a torch tip cleaner to remove a chalky substance from the orifice. Everything reassembled, it fired like a champ.
Just wanted to share my problem and its solution with the group.
Happy and safe Fourth guys and gals,
Jeffrey

[rodm1]

Here is a good sight that will help to size your LP tank to your burner.

http://www.nbmc.com/heaters/lpchart.html

Vaporization Rate
100 LB Propane Cylinders (approximate)
Maximum Continuous Draw In BTU Per Hour At Various Temperatures In Degrees F.
Lbs. of Propane in Cylinder 0 degree F
1 Tank 20 degree F
1 Tank 0 degree F
2 Tanks 20 degree F
2 Tanks 0 degree F
3 Tanks 20 degree F
3 Tanks
100 113,000 167,000 248,000 367,000 545,000 807,000
90 104,000 152,000 228,000 334,000 501,000 734,000
80 94,000 137,000 206,000 301,000 400,000 662,000
70 83,000 122,000 182,000 268,000 363,000 589,000
60 75,000 109,000 165,000 239,000 310,000 453,000
50 64,000 94,000 141,000 206,000 260,000 382,000
40 55,000 79,000 121,000 174,000 217,000 319,000
30 45,000 66,000 99,000 145,000 217,000 319,000
20 36,000 51,000 79,000 112,000 174,000 246,000
10 28,000 38,000 62,000 84,000 136,000 1

[400short]

Actually, you don't need hot water. Cool water works just as well. Put your bottle in a container of water to cover the frost line, be sure to secure it so it can't tip over on its side. You will be surprised at how much propane you can get out before you run dry.

[Sasquatch-1]

At the place I have mine REFILLED, I only pay for what I get. That way, if there are a couple pounds left in the tank, that's a couple pounds I don't pay for. So when the pressure gets low it's off to the gas station for a refill.

[gussiegoins2]

That is butane left over in your tank. All propane you get refilled is not pure propane. It will be up to 2.5 % butane. Once it goes in you tank it does not really come out except in really hot weather. When it does it is at very low pressure, think Bic lighter. After ten refills your tank can be a quarter butane. To get out, if that bothers you, open the fill relief valve with a screwdriver and set it out in the sun for 4-5 days. It will bleed off slowly.

[Salmon-boy]

I started out melting aluminum with that same regulator and a 100lb tank... At higher outputs, (125K+ BTU) I've had it slow down in the winter, but never actually "freeze up" but I went to the 100lb'er mostly for extended casting times.

The ice you see on the outside of the tank is just condensation collecting and freezing. The "Freeze Up" refers to the temperature of the Propane, pressure in the container and how quickly the propane will boil over to gas and replenish the pressure drop. This is demonstrated with the jet powered beer cooler -- http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

Now with all the range scrap I have, I'm thinking more about efficiency.. Propane / butane both burn much hotter than lead melts. More insulation will keep the heat in better and use less fuel.

[iomskp]

Try connecting two 20 lb tanks together it will help with the vaporization on colder days.

regards Trevor

[376Steyr]

I once calculated a 70 degree F propane tank could provide a constant pressure until the liquid level dropped to 20% of the tank's volume. After that there would still be liquid, just less and less of it as the vapor pressure in the tank dropped. Gentle heating, like in a warm (not hot, and especially not boiling) water bath will let you get more gas out at a higher pressure.

[alfloyd]

I just hooked my smelter up to my 300 gal propane tank thru a high pressure regulator and go to work. Never had it freeze up and not get hot enough to melt lead. :)

It is also cheaper to but it at 200 gal at a time and they come to my house to fill it.

Lafaun

[375RUGER]

What size is your burner? The Bayou Classic 10" maybe?
How big is the pot? and How much lead are you trying to melt? May have nothing to do with your regulator at all.

[7Acres]

This is my regulator:
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-7850-Adjustable-High-Pressure/dp/B000VXEW4G

This is my burner:
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-BG10-Cast-Iron-Replacement/dp/B0009JXYSW

This is my 400lb pot:
https://plus.google.com/photos/111194866330664064450/albums/5899001285060036241

I keep a lid over the pot while it's melting whatever scrap lead I loaded it up with. This photo was taken just after it all finally melted and I removed the slag, fluxed it and skimmed off the sawdust. The little wisps of flame is all the volume I could get out of the 20lb tank at this point. You can see the frost level on the tank. Shortly after this photo I was set up to pour and that's when it all started solidifying. I didn't have another full tank on hand so now I've got a 400lb ingot sitting in the smelting pot.*Same thing happened to me last time when I was doing 350lbs.

__________________________________

[375RUGER]

You might replace the regulator with a ball valve and see if that helps. I run one unregulated. Should only be a few bucks down at the home depot, lowes or other multipurpose store of your choice.
If it only happens when you get low fuel level maybe the hot water or dual tanks will be the correct fix.

[SeabeeMan]

I saw it above, but I also run them until I lose pressure and finish them off on the grill.

[shadowcaster]

This is my regulator:
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-7850-Adjustable-High-Pressure/dp/B000VXEW4G

This is my burner:
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-BG10-Cast-Iron-Replacement/dp/B0009JXYSW

This is my 400lb pot:
https://plus.google.com/photos/111194866330664064450/albums/5899001285060036241

I keep a lid over the pot while it's melting whatever scrap lead I loaded it up with. This photo was taken just after it all finally melted and I removed the slag, fluxed it and skimmed off the sawdust. The little wisps of flame is all the volume I could get out of the 20lb tank at this point. You can see the frost level on the tank. Shortly after this photo I was set up to pour and that's when it all started solidifying. I didn't have another full tank on hand so now I've got a 400lb ingot sitting in the smelting pot.*Same thing happened to me last time when I was doing 350lbs.

__________________________________

Does this only happen when your tank is low? If so.. you'll just have to make sure that you refill when it approaches this point whether using a 20 or 100 pound bottle.

Shad

[7Acres]

Shad, yes only when it gets low.

RodM1, I think the info behind your link proves that the 20lb bottle is undersized for the BTU needs of my smelter.

357RUGER, I like your ball valve idea. So simple. Hardly anything can go wrong with that.

I'm definitely going to be changing to a 100# bottle. Probably going to look into the ball valve too after that.

[Adk Mike]

Here is the truth. I know. Propane works just like water in a pressure cooker. Your using the vapor as it boils in the tank. If you use more vapor than boils off the liquid than you lose pressure. You couldn't run a restrauant on a 20 pound tank. The best way is manifold two together. You'll need what the propane people call a tee block and a pol by pol pigtail. Two tanks together will do the job with no ice on the tank. I've been in propane a long time and thats how I do it. A larger tank more liguid surface will do the same thing. Mike

[7Acres]

Here is the truth. I know. Propane works just like water in a pressure cooker. Your using the vapor as it boils in the tank. If you use more vapor than boils off the liquid than you lose pressure. You couldn't run a restrauant on a 20 pound tank. The best way is manifold two together. You'll need what the propane people call a tee block and a pol by pol pigtail. Two tanks together will do the job with no ice on the tank. I've been in propane a long time and thats how I do it. A larger tank more liguid surface will do the same thing. Mike

...in bold above. Is this why my regulator goes "click" and reduces to a low flame after 5-10 minutes (happened to me today multiple times after hooking up a full tank)? Tank lost pressure during high-BTU burn because the surface area is too small?

[Adk Mike]

I don't know your tank size or BTU load.But likely yes thats the reason. A propane tank puts off only so much vapor depending on the liquid surface. The higher the outside temp the more vapor. Thats why some are having success by pouring hot water on the tank. It vaporizes faster. A side note. Water vaporizes at 212 degrees propane at minis 44. They act the same. Think of the propane boiling in the tank like water.
I say catch a propane service truck at a diner for lunch. Tell the guy you want to put two tanks together . A tee block is something only he would have. Mike

[Adk Mike]

I don't know your tank size or BTU load.But likely yes thats the reason. A propane tank puts off only so much vapor depending on the liquid surface. The higher the outside temp the more vapor. Thats why some are having success by pouring hot water on the tank. It vaporizes faster. A side note. Water vaporizes at 212 degrees propane at minis 44. They act the same. Think of the propane boiling in the tank like water.
I say catch a propane service truck at a diner for lunch. Tell the guy you want to put two tanks together . A tee block is something only he would have. Mike

[Adk Mike]

One other thing the ball value idea is dangerous. Tanks have left had threads to discourge that .
Put two tanks together and your troubles will end.

[Gliden07]

You can also use an magnetic electric oil pan heater to raise the temp/pressure in the tank or even an eletric heat gun. The water will work but I don't like the idea of all that water around molten lead!! Can you say "Tinsel Ferry??"


When the tank is being used at high demand it starts to ice up and restrict flow through the tank valve. I solved this problem by putting the tank in a plastic container filled partially with hot water. That seems to be enough to solve the problem.

[SeabeeMan]

http://www.propaneproducts.com/catalog/all-mr.-heater-parts-fittings-hoses/mr.-heater-2-tank-hookup-98.html

Something like this to link 2 together?

[snuffy]

7 acres, if you're getting those orange flames up around your pot, somethings really wrong! Your burner should have short blue flames no orange and no black soot anywhere.

There should be a way to adjust the air/fuel mixture at the burner. The picture of your burner shows no way to adjust the air/fuel mixture.

This other burner shown on the amazon page, shows the adjustment plate that surrounds the gas connection;

http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-BG12-Cast-Iron-Replacement/dp/B0009JXYT6/ref=pd_sim_lg_4

Yours is way too rich , (closed off to much), not enough atmospheric air mixed with the incoming propane. If opening that plate does NOT produce a blue flame in contact with the jets on the burner, something's wrong with the regulator.

You're wasting propane with those orange flames, and not getting much heat in exchange.

[shadowcaster]

7 acres, if you're getting those orange flames up around your pot, somethings really wrong! Your burner should have short blue flames no orange and no black soot anywhere.

His pot was previously used in a wood fired smelter. The orange tall flames I'm sure, are all from the soot and grime on the bottom of the pot.

Shad

[Duckiller]

Don't exchange your tanks. Refill them. You only pay for what you get and if you shop around you can find cheaper propane from a bulk supplier. No orange flames! Adjust or clean until flame is a pretty blue. Lot hotter!

[Just Duke]

I'll be smelting away and I can see that the tank is almost empty. Maybe 3" of frost at the bottom of the tank. And I can't get the volume I need to keep the lead from freezing at the top. No matter how high I turn up the burner I can't get any more BTUs out of my rig. The burner I have is "Bayou Classic 7850 0-30 PSI Adjustable High-Pressure Propane Regulator". This has happened enough times to me now that I'm thinking it's just the nature of a 20lb propane tank. Maybe the PSI in the tank tapers off towards the end. But I figured I'd ask just in case I have a crummy burner. If this is a burner issue can you recommend a burner that doesn't have this problem?

Thanks!
HERE (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?36200-Duke-s-Foundry-in-Action!-Pics) ;)

[CountryBoy19]

When the tank is being used at high demand it starts to ice up and restrict flow through the tank valve. I solved this problem by putting the tank in a plastic container filled partially with hot water. That seems to be enough to solve the problem.

Probably already been covered but not entirely true. Yes, water helps, but not for the reason you mentioned. As the liquid boils off into gas, the temperature of the liquid decreases. As temp decreases, the vapor pressure decreases. So what is actually happening is that as your tank gets low and the liquid gets colder and colder you end up at a point where the LP can no longer boil off fast enough to meet demand and you get reduced pressure in your burner, which means reduced BTU output. To correct this you need to increase the temperature in your tank. Water is the best way to do this. Warm water helps but I certainly wouldn't be using water out of my water heater. I'd be inclined to leave a black bucket of water sit in the sun all day to heat up...

[Mal Paso]

When liquid propane expands to become gas whatever heat was in the liquid is spread over an area 35 times the size of the liquid state. Refrigeration. Blow off enough gas fast enough and the propane will freeze solid.

The amount of gas you can recover from liquid depends on temperature and surface area of the liquid in the tank. Horizontal tanks are that way for surface area.

Running cold water over a tank is usually enough to keep a tank unfrozen. Freezing point of Propane is -45F and +40F will get you 72 PSI static vapor pressure.

[detox]

I'll be smelting away and I can see that the tank is almost empty. Maybe 3" of frost at the bottom of the tank. And I can't get the volume I need to keep the lead from freezing at the top. No matter how high I turn up the burner I can't get any more BTUs out of my rig. The burner I have is "Bayou Classic 7850 0-30 PSI Adjustable High-Pressure Propane Regulator". This has happened enough times to me now that I'm thinking it's just the nature of a 20lb propane tank. Maybe the PSI in the tank tapers off towards the end. But I figured I'd ask just in case I have a crummy burner. If this is a burner issue can you recommend a burner that doesn't have this problem?

Thanks!

Bad regulator. Return to Bayou Classic.