Slick vs. Grooved

[Gtek]

Did not want to hijack other gentleman's thread. I can understand the advantage of the mechanical bite of the wrap and increased lube volume on a grooved boolit. Does this situation apply itself across bore dimension and speed? Can slick be worked with to moderate velocities in .30 cals ? Mr. 303guy seems to have success with smooth, Mr. pdawg appears to run just this side of light speed with grooved success. I understand the no absolutes, is there somewhat of speed that slick falls off ? Thanks, Gtek

[Outpost75]

I've used smooth-sided bullets with film lubes successfully in standard pressure .38 Special loads and gallery loads in .30 cal. rifles below 1300 fps. Above those levels I would not expect much.

Federal tried slick bullets in their 38G 158-gr lead HP +P service load in .38 Special many years ago and ended up going back to a grooved bullet with graphite and lithium grease.

[Gtek]

Maybe some confusion with my question, meaning .30"-.458" rifle. Gtek

[Outpost75]

In. 30 cal. rifles, gallery loads to 1300 fps work OK in soft alloy with powders similar to Bullseye, 231, etc. Have not tried in larger calibers.

[leftiye]

The original question stands. Is there a place/application where smooth boolits PATCH adequately/well as applies to velocity and or caliber and place(s) where there are generally problems with patched smooth boolits? Same question for grooved boolits for comparison.

[303Guy]

I was using an alloy soft enough to grip the patch. However, these were tapered boolits so the patch would get wedged between the boolit and throat and gripped the lead better so they stayed put. But not always. I have found evidence of the patch sliding back some and forming crinkles. I would go for fine grooves to provide 'bite'. In the meantime I knurl the boolits as I've hardened up the alloy. No field tests yet though.

[Gtek]

I have seen the knurling in your photos. Now I have some more information for my hard head. I have rounded up several single Lyman .323" RB molds that I wanted to stroll into the four jaw. I can pull off a .950" length in bottom and wanted to make my own, slick would have been the easy one. With this new information absorbed by me, I am now thinking duplicating the tumble groove. Yes, I can pick up the phone and probably have one in hand in a couple weeks, but where is the fun in that? Thanks for the feedback. Gtek

[6.5 mike]

If you look at Lyman's original pp'ing boolits, they are multi grooved. I have had my best results with grooved ones. Another way to add "grip" to them is roll them on a file, will also add bout a thousands to the diameter.

[pdawg_shooter]

I just could not get a slick to group. There was always one or more flyers. And with each flyer I found lead in the barrel. Since I always patch to the start of the ogive, I have to conclude the patch is slipping down and exposing lead to the bore.

[Gtek]

Thanks for the feedback. The sizing down I have done never seems to be clean in regard to base. Always seems to create rollover and edge on one side no matter how hard I have tried. Next thought is to make up some custom nose pieces to put on ram with JB or something and going up through tail first. This was with full diameter bases. I have been told by one of the Meister's that a 311284 will and does work great and the base being smaller probably will not roll, guess I need to fire the pot up. Thanks for the patience gentleman, my need to do it the hard way seems endless. A positive is I know a whole bunch that does not and will not work. Gtek

[pdawg_shooter]

The 311284, along with the 311414, are probably the most accurate 30cals I have ever patched. I size them to .3015/.302 or .304, depending on the rifle. Two wraps of 16# paper, lube, final size, load an go shooting. Accuracy and velocity as good as, or better than jacketed.

[montana_charlie]

I have found evidence of the patch sliding back some and forming crinkles.
You might be able to solve that problem by reversing the direction you wrap the patch on. That worked for me.

On the general subject of a bullet needing some kind of 'surface shape' or 'texture' to grip the patch, I find that the patch does a fine job of gripping a bullet.

Here you can see that the texture of the paper (which feels quite smooth to the touch) is clearly impressed into the alloy upon firing.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/MoneyPatchedToGroove.jpg

CM

[Nobade]

Was that fired with smokeless or black powder? I have great success with slicks and black, but awful with slicks and smokeless.

-Nobade

[montana_charlie]

Was that fired with smokeless or black powder? I have great success with slicks and black, but awful with slicks and smokeless.

-Nobade
It was fired using black powder.

[pdawg_shooter]

It was fired using black powder.

World of difference here. comparing black with smokeless is an exercise in futility, IMHO. The two powders act so differently you just cant compare them.

[303Guy]

My softer alloy slicks get the paper grain impressions just like that.

My understanding on black powder is that it forms a temporary wad under the boolit. It does seem to have a rapid pressure rise but surprisingly, not as rapid as many smokeless powders we use. However, it doesn't develop as much pressure so perhaps that is why it works as well as it does. Just speculating, mind you. I made some black powder once - it worked pretty well too.

When I've had evidence of patch slip, either the patch wasn't tight or the alloy was hard. Hard alloy seems to slip no matter how tight the patch is but that is with dry wrapping so there was no shrink tightening, just twist tightening which is limited but fine for the softer alloy.

[Gtek]

See- all the veterans I follow chimed in, Score! Saved me aggravation and time, Mongo smarter now. Thanks, Gtek

[Good Cheer]

Gtek, thanks for asking. Good info. Been fixing to go down the slick road with the 1888.