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hiram
07-04-2013, 01:33 PM
I have 4 5 gal pails of 12 ga AA shells. Low brass. Also included are Remington ribbed shells, similar to RXP hulls. The loads have 7/8, 1, 1 1/8 oz of shot. The AA shells are gray and the Rem shells are black.

I am reclaiming the shot. The shells are rusty and dirty on the outside but clean on the inside.

I have to get rid of the powder or consider reusing it in cast boolit rifle loads for 30-30 and 32 Win Spl., and 44-40.

Does anyone know what powder would have been used for these shells?

Thanks.

mroliver77
07-04-2013, 01:47 PM
If it were ME I would consider it about the fastest powder made like Bulls Eye or Red Dot. Use a conservative load to start with and work from there. In a .38 special 2 grain is not gonna be an overload but still plenty to not stick a boolit. Just MY take on it.
Jay

hiram
07-04-2013, 01:53 PM
thank you.

TXGunNut
07-04-2013, 02:26 PM
Just a guess but I'd say the AA's were loaded with 452AA or something very similar. I think they call it WST now.

Calamity Jake
07-04-2013, 06:20 PM
You'ed be a lot safer using it for fertlizer for the yard or flowers

MtGun44
07-04-2013, 06:40 PM
Another guess at 452AA. This was a popular powder for .45 ACP in the 80s and 90s
I don't think it is curently sold as a cannister powder.

Assume it is very fast and work up some pistol loads with a chrono and you should be
fine. Start with maybe 2.5 gr in a .45 ACP and chrono it. Be ready for the possibility
of a stuck boolit. Then try 3.0 and 3.5. Once you have three good data points, plot
these on a graph. They should be a fairly straight line. Extrapolate along the line
to where a normal velocity will be and go HALF way to it from the highest one you
have already tested with your next test load.

If it is pretty much on the same line, try the normal velocity load. If it is diverging
dramatically from a straight line on the high side be VERY careful, powders will
behave very linearly when used in their correct pressure range.

If you do it this way you will be safe and can salvage the powder.

One anamoly with 452AA is an inverse temperature response. If you make loads
up in hot weather, in cold weather the pressure and velocities will be HIGHER,this
is the opposite of most powders. So leave some velocity headroom and retest
in the winter.

Good luck.

Bill

runfiverun
07-04-2013, 06:48 PM
it could be AAP powder also.
if I were going to use it I would compare it directly [over a chrono] to another fast powder.
if 2.5 grs of the known and 2.6 of yours gives the same velocity then that's the powder data i'd use.
keep the Remington powder separate for sure as I bet it's a flake powder similar to clays.

williamwaco
07-04-2013, 07:06 PM
It will not all be the same powder.

If you use it, ( and I wouldn't ), dump it all in a bucket and be sure that it is mixed thoroughly.

MakeMineA10mm
07-04-2013, 09:12 PM
Reclaimed, unknown powder can be really sketchy. My thoughts:

ONLY pursue this idea if you are very experienced and comfortable working up loads from ZERO available data AND if you understand the use of a chronograph and micrometer in so developing said loads. (Ken Waters' expansion ring measurement system. )

Next, assume you have no idea what powder this is. Factories load non-cannister powders most of the timeand Winchester made a series of ball powders which mostly looked alike, even though they covered the full range of burn rates.

Third, as you pull these down, you will need to separate out any powders which do not closely resemble one another. (Especially bad would be mixing ball and/or flake and/or extruded powders.)

Now, at this point, it would be important to thoroughly mix the type-classified powders. (All the ball powders, all the clump-ball powders, all the flake w/ no colors, all the extruded, etc.)

That done, you can now start with a light load for that type of powder. If you have flake, I'd use Red Dot and cut the starting load in half. Ball, I'd use AA#2 start load, again, cut in half. Use your chronograph and Waters' pressure ring measurement system to check you're safe.

I would NOT use reclaimed powder for something like the "Red Dot cast rifle load." Too many variables with the large internal volume of the case, IMO.

shooting in revolvers - just load to a light/medium load like 700fps from a 38. In auto-pistol calibers, just load til you get reliable functioning.

I think an experienced, expert handloader can do this, but wisdom dictates some common sense self-imposed limits.

runfiverun
07-05-2013, 02:02 AM
it can be done if it is treated as the faster powder until it is proved otherwise.
you'll probably end up about 2-1/2 pounds of powder, enough to pursue a good load for the 38 or whatever.

Catshooter
07-05-2013, 11:48 PM
I came into about twenty pounds of an un-marked rifle powder one time.

So I treated it as if it was the fastest powder know to man, even though it really, really looked like 4831.

I used a 45 Colt Winchester 94 'cause it was nice and strong and I had lots of experience loading for the caliber.

The first round went down the bore about eight inches, barely more than just a primer will do. I worked up from there.

In point of fact it did turn out to be 4831 or something so close that it doesn't matter, so now I just use it like it is.

Especially in these trying times I would make every effort to salvage all the components I could.


Cat

MtGun44
07-06-2013, 12:06 AM
If you assume it is Bullseye until you PROVE otherwise and use a chrono, you will be fine.

NOT something for the sloppy or daredevil types, but if you do what I outlined and are careful,
you will have a bunch of free powder. You have the huge advantage of knowing that it is light
load shotgun powder, and that means really pretty fast, essentially guaranteed faster than Unique.

Take nothing for granted, test carefully and you'll be fine, but this is the advanced level in reloading.

Bill

beagle
07-06-2013, 12:27 PM
I mistakenly mixed some Red Dot in with another pistol powder once and that's the road I took. Mixed it thoroughly and tested with Red Dot data, chronographed and worked up to a standard velocity. That stuff went in a bunch of 9mm and I had no problems. Finally got rid of it all and now, there's only one can on the bench when I'm loading.

Different situation but the method should work in your case as well./beagle

Boz330
07-06-2013, 02:40 PM
Like Bill I would think that it is 452AA if it is old. I loved this powder for 45ACP at 5.5gr. Just work up slowly and watch for pressure signs. As someone else pointed out these are trying times and I sure wouldn't throw any powder out. If not for that I would sure fertilize with it.

Bob

Outpost75
07-06-2013, 03:05 PM
Agree that 452AA was great in the. 45 ACP, 4.5 grains for wadcutter and 5.5 for hardball.

With WST 4.8 grains is full charge 900fps with H&G68 at 1.25" OAL, but because it is bulkier, if you machine is set up to throw a safe charge of Bullseye and you substitute WST in the hopper with no change, you won't get into any trouble, as charge and velocity will be lower.

lylejb
07-06-2013, 03:10 PM
I would think that it is 452AA if it is old

Yes, but I don't think it's that old.


The AA shells are gray....... The shells are rusty

Back in the day of 452, 12 ga AA's were red, with brass heads. I shot and loaded plenty of them back in the 80's, about the time 452 went away.

Which leads us back to......we don't know!

I agree with the advice above, work up carefully.

There's no way to tell for sure what it is, and may not even be a type sold to the public.

go slow, be careful .

Duckiller
07-07-2013, 02:46 AM
Powder is not Bullseye. AA used Winchester ball powder. If you have an older Winchester free loading manual they list "factory dupilcation loads". It is late and I am tired. Tomorrow I will dig out the Winchester manual and list the duplication loads. Will also include date of manual. Silver AA hulls were special loads and shouldn't be much more than 20 years old. I thought I was th only one with such a hoard of hulls. Sons helped me clean up my reloading room. Since I haven't shot trap or skeet in a long time they said I could only keep 3 buckerts, about 4 others went down the road. Hiram will get you more info tomorrow.

fryboy
07-07-2013, 08:13 AM
the powder could be any non canister grade of shotgun type winchester powder , i'd rather doubt that they used the same powder for both super-lite loads and super handicap loads - which both used to come in grey ww shells , i really liked super lite powder albeit i didnt load to many cast rounds with it ( it went in alot of trap shells !!!!! ) they had factory duplication loads ( ie; duplication of factory f.p.s. ) yet these werent quite the same but only as close to the factory as we could get with canister grade powder ( something they dont use to load their shells )
i found some shells once that looked like heck on the outside , the inside was ,as you mentioned, clean , after taking various samples apart i just cleaned as best i could and shot the rest [shrugz]
i guess i dont have to echo the work safely and smartly that's been posted before but just consider what may happen if you dont and have fun

higgins
07-07-2013, 04:19 PM
I may have missed something here, but if you know beyond a doubt that they're factory loads, why not clean them up on the outside good enough to chamber and function and fire them? The AAs should have a brass head that wouldn't rust through like a steel head. They could be weakened by corrosion but an educated eye should be able to gauge the degree of damage. If they're just tarnished black they should be OK. Wipe the crud off the outside with a water and detergent-dampened rag.

The Remingtons may be a different matter. They're probably steel headed, which should be easy to determine by the presence of flaky rust or with a magnet. I once obtained a couple boxes of Remington factory loads with steel heads that were corroded to various degrees. I cleaned the heads with steel wool to determine the degree of rust damage. If it was just surface rust and the edges of the rims weren't badly damaged I fired them as-is. If the heads were too damaged, I just cut them apart and reloaded the factory components into a once-fired hull of the same brand and construction.

If you want to salvage the powder for other usage, I can't add anything to what's already been posted.

Duckiller
07-07-2013, 05:42 PM
As promised from a 1985 Winchester reloading componets catalog: These are listed as duplicating ballistics level of factory loads. For 23/4 dram eq. AAplus target load- 11/8 oz shot , 19.5 gr 452AA powder and WAA12 wad. for 3 dr AAplus target load -11/8 oz shot 20.5 gr 452AA powder and WAA12 wad. Both used Win 209 primers. Have more loads but they are "Upland" or "Super-X" and the hulls would be red not silver. As others have said I am not sure if Winchester used cannister powder, but if the weights are about the same the burn rate ,etc might be ok for lighter loads.

MtGun44
07-07-2013, 11:06 PM
I was fairly sure it was 452AA in that time period.

Bill

hiram
10-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Here is a description of the 2 powders. In the AA cases, the powder was circular flaked and black.

The other powder was dark gray and had red/pink markers in it. Also circular flake.

I have a rolling block in 357 max I want to try this in. 155--200gr boolits.

Any ideas?

MaryB
10-05-2013, 11:06 PM
red pink markers sounds like red dot.