make a cylinder

[Battis]

Here's a question for those that have metal working knowledge and/or ability - I have none. Zip. Zero.
How hard would it be to make a cylinder for a percussion revolver? Six shot, .36 caliber.

[drhall762]

How hard is dependent on equipment available and expertise on hand. The gradient is from easy to relatively impossible. If I needed one, I would probably attempt it and in my home shop I have nothing but manual machines. Most of the cylinder forward of the nipples is straight forward. Cutting the rear of the cylinder gets a little more complicated. The timing of the rotation from one chamber to the other is pretty critical.

The other question becomes: "Do I have the original cylinder to copy or am I re-inventing the wheel." Some of these parts have prints available on line which helps.

Just my nickels worth of comment.

[John Taylor]

I have made several cylinders for cartridge conversions. It is time consuming.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

seems to me that even with the right tools (lathe, mill, etc.) the effort would be excessive compared to buying one (or two or...). I've got a buddy who is a machinist makes all kinds of parts, but when it comes to barrels and receivers he generally buys them because of the extremely tight tolerances not to mention that everything has to be sent off for heat treating unless you have the means and the knowledge.

Gun Parts Corp may have what you are looking for, as an example here is one for the Uberti 1851 Navy: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/869530.htm

[Fly]

Yea the hard part is the indexing.I,m a retired tool maker & can do it.But it's just
not worth my time.I only have manual machines & no CNC stuff.The gun companys
are set up to pop those babys out at the time it takes me to even set up.

Fly

[john hayslip]

Wouldn't surprise me if you have a Pietta or a Uberti replica you could find a spare. Try VTI parts. Buying it would be cheaper than trying to make it. The rachet in the middle of the back of the cylinder that the hand uses to spin the cylinder looks like the hardest part.

[Rojelio]

Cabelas has spare cylinders for pietta revolvers $49. Not worth trying to make one.

[bob208]

well first in 1847 they sis not have cnc. making one would be time consuming. but to make many would not be bad. because then you could make the fixtures to do the job. that is where the problem lies fixturing.

[Fly]

well first in 1847 they sis not have cnc. making one would be time consuming. but to make many would not be bad. because then you could make the fixtures to do the job. that is where the problem lies fixturing.

Soooooooooooooo true!
Fly

[Battis]

The revolver is an original Savage & North .36. Some call it a double action but it's actually a lever action revolver. It's the top gun above the Whitney.
Anyways, I like to shoot this gun but 2 or 3 of the 6 nipple holes have been stripped so they won't hold a nipple. I thought about using nipples with larger threads but I'm not sure if there's enough metal in some of the holes to resize.
Could the nipple holes be filled in somehow and then redrilled? I'll see if I can post a pic of the cylinder.
Mechanically, the gun is perfect. I've been looking for a spare cylinder but they're rare.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/IMG_0295.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/IMG_0295.jpg.html)

[rodwha]

Very cool I must say!

[Sergeant Earthworm]

well now, that casts things in a different light. I'm betting a good welder/machinist could repair the cylinder you have but it would be expensive. Welding the nipple holes closed and re-drilling and tapping seems like a possibility. Likewise, finding someone who would be willing to machine a replacement cylinder is almost certainly in the realm of possible, but to have it done right would cost a lot. Whoever does the work would have to have the right steel and have it properly heat treated. Given that the pressure of firing would not be very high, the likelihood of bursting would be pretty low but if the steel used is not good quality there could be internal and thus invisible fissures or stress fractures that could cause failure. These days there is a lot of very poor quality steel coming out of an Asian country whose name starts with C and ends with a. Something like this is definitely not a place to cut corners.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

oh, and, awesome revolver!

[Battis]

It takes two fingers to shoot. The ring under the trigger is actually a lever - you pull it back with your middle finger and the hammer is cocked, and the cylinder is pulled back from the forcing cone and rotated. When you release this ring lever, the cylinder is forced forward into the forcing cone, forming a gas seal. Now it's ready to shoot with your trigger finger. Once you get the action down, it's amazingly fast to cock and shoot.
It's .36 caliber but it should have been a .44 - it's built like a tank.
I just missed a cylinder on ebay a few weeks ago.
I think I'll bring it to a machinist and see if he can close the holes and redrill them. I'd like to shoot all chambers.

[KCSO]

Oversize nipples are available in .005 increments from various suppliers. You might try that first.

[drhall762]

I'd recommend the oversized route first.

[Fly]

I might be able to fix it.Just need to look at it.

Fly

[Battis]

This is one of the damaged holes
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF3889_zps574a780d.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/DSCF3889_zps574a780d.jpg.html)

[Fly]

How many are that bad?I could make a threaded plug that had the ID taped to the same thread size
as your nipples.Ya I can do that.

Fly

[Battis]

A threaded plug - now that is ingenious. I never thought about that and no one ever suggested it. So, the plug would thread into the hole, and in its center would be the nipple hole? Clever.
At least two are that bad, maybe three.

[bob208]

yes the threaded plug is a way better idea then welding. after seeing the pic up close it would be the only way to go.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

yes the threaded plug is a way better idea then welding. after seeing the pic up close it would be the only way to go.

no question, if it works the threaded plug is definitely a better way to go than welding/drilling/tapping. that was just the first thing that came to mind in my earlier post as I have seen it done that way before.

[Greebe]

Could you not just drill out the old holes and put a large nipple in there? You could always make new nipples that were larger for it if you couldn't find any that would fit. They are not that hard to make if you have a lathe.

[KCSO]

First buy a lathe and a milling machine and then get a rotary table and then... Converting a cylinder is pretty easy but making one from stock is not. I have converted cylinders with basic blacksmith tools but have never tried to do one from scratch.

[Greebe]

Yep my investment in a milling machine and lathe was a very expensive endeavor but one that I would not trade. The cost of tooling cost as much or more than the tools so that is something to keep in mind for the prospective buyer. I also bought a large CNC lathe a few years back. Still trying to figure it out.

[Battis]

I don't think there's enough metal left in the hole to thread for a larger nipple.

[trevj]

This is one of the damaged holes
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF3889_zps574a780d.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/DSCF3889_zps574a780d.jpg.html)

THAT is a considerably less complicated cylinder than it could have been.

The lack of need for accurately located sets of notches, and the fairly complex set of cuts for the indexing pawl to rotate the cylinder, makes this one a bunch easier to build from scratch. Not a trivial project, but not near as much fiddly stuff to deal with as say a modern revolver or at least, more modern.

The stud on the back will need to be accurately indexed to the chambers, the angled cuts are pretty straightforward and the rest is just a bunch of basic machining operations.

Not something I would do for others, but with some spare stock in hand, I could see working through that in a bunch of evenings. Lots more thinking and set-up time, than actually cutting material.

Cheers
Trev

[KCSO]

Bore it out wire weld it and re machine.

[rupe01]

I am a skilled pipe welder (39yrs) and that could definitely be successfully welded by a skilled TIG welder with a 1/16" tungsten and a gas lens. Most machinists have welders they can go to (and vice versa) and it would need to be machined both before (to clean and bevel it) and after (to clean it up and re-drill and tap). You would have to explore whether it would be cheaper to plug and redrill or weld and redrill but either way a skilled craftsman can get that gun firing again for you. Great gun too!

[Fly]

Well I can do both, being a retired tool & die maker I have a small machine shop next to my home.
If you can't find someone else pm me.Don't need the work, but will help you out if need be.

Ha,Ha, Roy I think your there also my friend.But the worst part of retirement NO ONE ever,
thinks about? You NEVER get a day off.

Fly

[RoyEllis]

Well I can do both, being a retired tool & die maker.......

Retired? HA! What you mean is you don't have to punch the clock any more but you're still busy with more daily "projects" than you know what to do with, right?!

[Fly]

Retired? HA! What you mean is you don't have to punch the clock any more but you're still busy with more daily "projects" than you know what to do with, right?!

Man you know what I,m up against, Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.But what most never think about is this.
We NEVER get a day off.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (Wink)
Fly

[John 242]

Would there need to be any type of heat treatment done to the cylinder after TIG welding? Would welding change the heat treatment?

[Fly]

That cylinder is low carbon steel.But I see no need to Tig weld it when installing a plug.

Fly

[John 242]

That cylinder is low carbon steel.But I see no need to Tig weld it when installing a plug. Fly

I was thinking that originally the cylinder might be case hardened, but I know very little about black powder era revolvers.

I also wasn't sure if the steel used would be closer to low or medium carbon steel. Seems to me that something like 1018 would wear really quickly at locking bolt notches or at the cylinder hand ratchet without some sort of case hardening, but I really have no clue.
My first instinct was to TIG weld it, but I can see putting in a plug would prevent any odd things from happening to whatever heat treat, if any, this thing once had. You also avoid porosity problems and other related headaches.

I find this stuff really interesting, so thank you for the response. I really enjoy the looking at projects like this and turning it all over in my head. Sometimes, I learn a little. Other times, I get inspired.

[Battis]

Few more pics of the Savage & North .36
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/IMG_0429_zps5e9eeb73.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/IMG_0429_zps5e9eeb73.jpg.html)

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/IMG_0254_zps00051451.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/IMG_0254_zps00051451.jpg.html)
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020016_zpsbf795568.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/user/pohill/media/S4020016_zpsbf795568.jpg.html)

[rupe01]

That cylinder is low carbon steel.But I see no need to Tig weld it when installing a plug.

Fly

I agree totally Fly. In my mind, we were discussing an "either/or". And yes, whatever heat treatment is done to a cylinder (I am no gunsmith) would need to be duplicated. TIG welding would remove it, at least partially, depending upon how skilled a welder you found, if a heat treatment is used on a cylinder. Cool gun, though! I envy you your problem!:bigsmyl2:

[Reg]

Would have to check dimensions but it might be such a thing as you could cut the plug to a 1/8" NPT size. This would allow you to make up the plugs tapered and really get a tight , locking fit to the inserts.
Just a idea ???????

[Good Cheer]

:drinks:
Lovely piece. Best wishes on getting her up and running.

[drhall762]

Just got contacted today by a gentleman who has 2 original Remingtons but only 1 cylinder. Apparently the Italian repros will not work. I am thinking about taking on the project. Working on figuring out the jigs and fixtures I am going to need and seeing how much of it I can mesh with my instruction at the Community College. May be kinda' cool. Fortunately he is not in any hurry that I know of and I told him I would like to make a print off of the original cylinder he has.

[Battis]

I have an original Remington New Model .44 that came with an extra repro (Italian) cylinder, and it works well. I think it's a Pietta - I'll double check.

[drhall762]

Apparently these are 1858 Remington Navy Revolvers in .36 caliber. Slightly smaller. According to him, and he is a collector of CW firearms, the repros are just enough off to be problematic. Don't know.

[Battis]

My .44 came with two extra cylinders. One fit and works well, one fit but will not cycle. It's a **** shoot.

[John 242]

Apparently these are 1858 Remington Navy Revolvers in .36 caliber. Slightly smaller. According to him, and he is a collector of CW firearms, the repros are just enough off to be problematic. Don't know.

This Yahoo group has some very knowledgeable members. Someone might be able to assist you with locating a replacement cylinder, or perhaps fabricating another.

You may have to register in order to post a question.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thepercussionrevolver/

[rupe01]

I was watching a video on YouTube and apparently the Uberti cylinders work as they are original size, but the Piettas dont as they are 1/3 larger...............?? The guy on YouTube switched out cylinders from original to Uberti and they both worked no problem. Just not Piettas i guess.... I cant remember which model he was using though. It was a while back that i saw it. And i am old too!! Haha!