This is driving me nuts. 9mm M&P

[Cloudpeak]

I've come up with a pretty good load for my M&P full size 9mm using the Lee TL356-124-2R bullet cast from wheel weights and sized to .3565. This load will often times shoot under an inch at 7 yards off the bench or offhand. (I don't know why, but I can often shoot tighter groups offhand than I can off the bench)

I used this load with the water dropped bullets lubed with JPW to shoot a .65" group the other day. The next time I shot this load, the groups open up dramatically. Ability to group with this load in this gun varies day to day. Clean barrel, dirty barrel doesn't seem to make much difference. Groups also shift from POA. It's not a flinching problem. I can pick up my 5" 1911 and shot one hole groups, offhand at 7 yards consistantly.

This is driving me nuts. Any ideas?

Cloudpeak

[armoredman]

Consistant cast weight? I don't know - I have the same mold, have built some loads in 9mm for my CZ P01, and am looking forward to trying them out, when I beat this flippin' cold I suddenly got. BTW, mine drops at .360, so I sized a bunch at .358 to try in the 38 as well. ;)

[testhop]

hey cloudpeak
here is something else to try the way you grip your m.p there is a DIMPPLE at your WRIST it is the center of your grip PLACE REPET PLACE YOUR M.P IN LINE WITH THIS AND TRY IT THIS WAY
YOU NEED TOP CHECK DIFFERNT HOLDS YOU NEVER SAID WHERE YOU WERE HITTING THIS WILL TELL IF THE PROBLUM IS THE GRIP
LET ME KNOW IF THIS WORKS

TESTHOP

[MT Gianni]

Try it at 25 or 50 yards to check for bullet tumble. Gianni

[Cloudpeak]

Armoredman: I really like this mold. It drops the best bullets of any of the four, Lee 6 cavity molds I've owned. I will try these bullets in my 357 when I get one. I think my wife will like the double action revolver better than the semi auto. I bought the M&P 9mm to shoot steel plates. I thought I'd make my lead supply last longer. The M&P is a wonderful pistol and I like it better than my XD40 SC but I think I'll trade in on a S&W 686 because, well, I don't own one!

Testhop: That's pretty much the way I hold the M&P. Plus, I've tried all three of the grip inserts. Today, the first four targets, starting with a clean barrel, had larger groups. The last 15 rounds, the group tightened to 1" at 7 yards off the bench. WWB 115 grains grouped .90. Both loads shoot to POA. The cast bullets seem to shoot best out of a "fouled" barrel. I've managed to work up very accurate loads for my XD40SC and both 1911s so this problem with the M&P has me baffled.

MT Gianni: That's a good idea. I never thought of that. I never really gave it a thought after shooting the .65" group, I just assumed the bullet was traveling straight and true.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[Forester]

I would give it a try at a little farther out. Just about any load ought to shoot OK at 7 yards, but the proof is out at 25-50 yards. If you cannot get good groups at 7 yards I would weigh a bunch and check to see they are nice and round.

If you can eliminate a reload problem it is either gun or shooter related...If you are used to a 1911 the trigger on a stock M&P could screw you up because it tends to be a little mushy. I have shot a couple M&Ps with good trigger jobs done on them and they approach a 1911 for being crisp, they still have a little longer reset than a 1911 though.

[Cloudpeak]

I would give it a try at a little farther out. Just about any load ought to shoot OK at 7 yards, but the proof is out at 25-50 yards. If you cannot get good groups at 7 yards I would weigh a bunch and check to see they are nice and round.

If you can eliminate a reload problem it is either gun or shooter related...If you are used to a 1911 the trigger on a stock M&P could screw you up because it tends to be a little mushy. I have shot a couple M&Ps with good trigger jobs done on them and they approach a 1911 for being crisp, they still have a little longer reset than a 1911 though.

What kind of groups can one expect at 25 and 50 yards? I gotta tell you, I don't think I can shoot at 50 yards anymore. Thirty-thirty-five years ago, no problem. I used to practice with my Ruger 44 mag. flat top at 50 yards and used to be a pretty good shot. Of course, the Ruger trigger was much nicer than the M&P. At 60 years old and wearing trifocals, I'm not near the shot I used to be:???:

My M&P trigger has been tuned up and is pretty good. Good reset and about 5.5 lbs. Much better than stock, that's for sure.

Maybe this pistol just doesn't like this bullet weight/design and/or the LLA? The bullets are round and average 123.5 grains with a range of 123.4 to 124 grains.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[MT Gianni]

Cloudpeak, I hear you, I just ordered my first pair of glasses at age 53. I would look for a pattern of instability rather than group at 50 yards. Make sure that the holes in the paper show no tipping or tumbling. Gianni

[Bob Jones]

Have you slugged the barrel? Is there a reason you're sizing to the size you are?

I have a .357 that needs .359-.360 bullets or the groups are all over, with the right size bullets it shoots great.

Maybe they're just a little too small and as the barrel gets dirty it gives a little more grip on the bullet and the group shrinks?

[randyrat]

Consistant grip with plasic(polymer) light pistols is most important. You will throw your group off from day to day just by your grip *** If everything else is perfect***** I use a parallel thumbs pointing forward, I'm right handed, 40% grip with my right hand and 60% grip left hand consisantly. Too hard a grip or too soft you'll be off a mile. The other big one is; Too much finger or too little on the trigger will also throw you for a bad day. Of course if everything else is perfect. Practice,practice and if you go back a forth to a polymor to a wheel gun learn over again.

[Forester]

What kind of groups can one expect at 25 and 50 yards? I gotta tell you, I don't think I can shoot at 50 yards anymore. Thirty-thirty-five years ago, no problem. I used to practice with my Ruger 44 mag. flat top at 50 yards and used to be a pretty good shot. Of course, the Ruger trigger was much nicer than the M&P. At 60 years old and wearing trifocals, I'm not near the shot I used to be:???:

My M&P trigger has been tuned up and is pretty good. Good reset and about 5.5 lbs. Much better than stock, that's for sure.

Maybe this pistol just doesn't like this bullet weight/design and/or the LLA? The bullets are round and average 123.5 grains with a range of 123.4 to 124 grains.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

That puts us in different positions then, and its hard for me to say,,,I am 25, have good vision and shoot 3-400rds per week through one 1911 or another. Maybe invest in one of those HAMMER machines to work loads up with so you know that it is you and not the gun causing the problem?

You asked about groups, I don't consider myself a great group shooter but I shoot about a 3-4 inch group at 25 yards and about a 6-8 inch group at 50. That is with a 1911 that I know to be capable of shooting 3" at 50. I doubt the M&P has that kind of intrinsic accuracy. I might have missed it but what kind of groups can you get with factory ammo?

Glad you had the trigger worked over, that seems to be the biggest problem with the M&P. Otherwise they seem to be a good gun.

[Cloudpeak]

Have you slugged the barrel? Is there a reason you're sizing to the size you are?

I have a .357 that needs .359-.360 bullets or the groups are all over, with the right size bullets it shoots great.

Maybe they're just a little too small and as the barrel gets dirty it gives a little more grip on the bullet and the group shrinks?

Barrel slugs .355.

Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

You asked about groups, I don't consider myself a great group shooter but I shoot about a 3-4 inch group at 25 yards and about a 6-8 inch group at 50. That is with a 1911 that I know to be capable of shooting 3" at 50. I doubt the M&P has that kind of intrinsic accuracy. I might have missed it but what kind of groups can you get with factory ammo?

Glad you had the trigger worked over, that seems to be the biggest problem with the M&P. Otherwise they seem to be a good gun.

0.875" groups with WWB 115 grain bullets at 21 feet and 3" at 48 feet off a bench. That was before the trigger job.

Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

Consistant grip with plasic(polymer) light pistols is most important. You will throw your group off from day to day just by your grip *** If everything else is perfect***** I use a parallel thumbs pointing forward, I'm right handed, 40% grip with my right hand and 60% grip left hand consisantly. Too hard a grip or too soft you'll be off a mile. The other big one is; Too much finger or too little on the trigger will also throw you for a bad day. Of course if everything else is perfect. Practice,practice and if you go back a forth to a polymor to a wheel gun learn over again.

I've shot thousands of rounds through my little XD40SC. I prefer the grip, trigger and overall feel of the M&P, though.

I like what you said about a wheel gun. I've been thinking of buying a SP101 snubbie. It's been 30+ years since I've owned a double action revolver.

Here's a target from one of the loads shot from my XD, 7 yards off the bench. I could actually hit plates better with the XD than I can the M&P. I do best with the SS 1911 Loaded, though. I probably should just stick with the 1911 but what's the fun in that?

Cloudpeak

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Targets/DSCN0885.jpg

[Forester]

Barrel slugs .355.

Cloudpeak

I think we can rule out shooter related problems, you can certainly shoot well enough to figure its a load problem! Since the bore slugs a few thou. under your boolit size the fit should be fine. Maybe try a faster or slower powder or harden the boolits up some by water dropping? What kind of rifling is in the M&P barrels?

[Cloudpeak]

I think we can rule out shooter related problems, you can certainly shoot well enough to figure its a load problem! Since the bore slugs a few thou. under your boolit size the fit should be fine. Maybe try a faster or slower powder or harden the boolits up some by water dropping? What kind of rifling is in the M&P barrels?

The best group I've shot was with water dropped bullets and they were lubed with Johnson Paste Wax. Very accurate and a real bugger to get the bore clean:-?

Different powder could sure make a difference as could the weight & style of the bullet. I like to use powder I have on hand: Clays, W231 and Power Pistol and I really like the way this mold casts so hope to discover that magic combination.

The M&P is conventionally rifled.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[IcerUSA]

My little 9mm likes Power Pistol at about midway in the load range for the boolit I shoot in it, the Lee 124 2R TL PB, the only problem I had was with temperature sensitivity with the Power Pistol, have since went with Tite Group and get about the same accuracy with it. Did you slug from both ends ? Might have a slight tapper in it, .0005 larger at the muzzle might give you a problem also. just a couple of thoughts.


Keith

[Cloudpeak]

Did you slug from both ends ? Might have a slight tapper in it, .0005 larger at the muzzle might give you a problem also. just a couple of thoughts.
Keith

Ever have a "Homer Simpson" dohh moment? I didn't slug from both ends but now remember the slug was tighter the first half of the barrel (starting from chamber) than it was on the last half. I also get a bit of leading towards the muzzle.

I wonder if I can get Smith to send me a new barrel? It had a very rough barrel, noticable when pushing patches through. Smith will want to know why I want a new barrel and it will be hard to explain leading a poor accuracy of my handloads, I imagine:???:

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[IcerUSA]

If Smith won't do anything you could always lap the barrel, I would recommend some diamond paste that they use to polish injection molds with, any grit over 2000 should do you well on a wood dowel, dowel should be pushed Thur the barrel to put the rifling imprint on it. It should be a very snug fit, work the dowel with the paste on it in the tight area and then Thur the whole barrel, clean with a loose fitting patch and you should feel more resistance where the barrel is smaller. Had to do that with my 22-250 as it had a couple tight spots in it that you could feel when the patch would hit them, dropped my groups by half inch at 50yards off a rest and it didn't take a 1000 or so rounds to do it. hehe Of course your mileage may very, just go slow and check fit with the patch and you should get it so the resistance on the patch will feel the same all the way Thur the barrel, It might even take a couple tries to get it but like most of the things we do here as casters is stuff we do our selfs. As a plus you will notice some machining slivers on the dowel also which is a plus also. :-D Only weapons I haven't done yet are my lever guns and a 22lr that I let the grandkids use. ( I know-I know, I'm a meanie....LOL)
All in all I hope Smith will come Thur for ya but if not there are ways to get it to shoot, just ask away and someone just might have the answer here. :drinks:


:castmine: so I can:Fire:

Keith

[Cloudpeak]

I shot some Lee 124 gr cast loads and some WWB 115 grains today. It was pretty windy and my eyes teared up (my excuse of the day)

The Lee cast loads at 25 yards didn't group well for me. About half of the mag (16 rounds) on a 6 inch target from the bench.

At 16 yards from the bench, the Lee loads grouped 4.4" and 3.3", 15 rounds at each target. The WWB rounds grouped 1.4 (5 shots). I think this pretty well tells me this pistol doesn't like this particular Lee bullet. Back to the drawing board.

I was in a better mood after firing my 1911 5" with the Lee 200 SWC bullet today. At 25 yards, 6 shots grouped 1.75". The other target had 5 rounds group 2.6". Both groups fired from the bench.

At 16 yards, offhand, 6 out of 9 shots grouped 1.26. Darned flyers opened the group to 3.0". Now, I don't think I stink as bad as I though I did.

Cloudpeak

[IcerUSA]

Big PEEW or little peew, which do you prefer ? hehehehe

[randyrat]

Humble pie all over my face as i'm thinkin ; Nope it's not his(cloupeak) shooting