Cast boolits fire hazard

[Idz]

Living in the arid southwest the Forest Service occasionally issues fire restriction rules and one of the more recent restrictions is no firearms / shooting is allowed. Now they even extend the restrictions to firing ranges which are essentially barren gravel pits. Having taken explosives classes I know you always use lead or brass/bronze tools because they don't spark. I've also researched every news report I've found of "fires started by shooting" and discovered that conventional ammunition is not the culprit but rather the shooter was firing steel core, pyrotechnic, tracers, shooting propane tanks or exploding targets. I have been unable to find a single documented case of conventional ammunition starting a fire. The only study I found that the Forest Service did had to cheat by firing blackpowder guns directly into dried tinder. Now with billions of rounds fired each year you'd expect something to show up if conventional ammunition was a fire hazard. I even read a story of a sheriff who tried to start a fire to show the danger but gave up because they all ran out of ammunition without success.

Has anybody got a documented case of conventional ammunition starting a fire? Is the Forest Service restriction just this administrations attempt at gun control?

[runfiverun]

it's called ZERO tolerance.
see how it works is instead of actually having to think you just ban everything.

[a.squibload]

Less people in the forest = less work for the FS.
Same goes for 4WD trails, easier to close trails
(or write more rules) than to get out there and
take care of things.
If someone drives 1/4 mile into a trail to
dump a load of trash it's "4-wheelers".
If someone leaves a fire going or tosses a
ciggie while shooting it'll be a "gun-related"
incident.

[dondiego]

I saw a documented case of conventional ammo used to start a fire. The bullet was pulled from the case and the powder was poured on some tender and he used a spark generator to light the powder. It started a fire right up! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[popper]

Tried to go shooting in the 60's in the hills (mountains) N.E. of LA. Found it was posted no shooting allowed due to fire hazard, but you could have campfires. Exited left coast as soon as possible.

[wv109323]

There may be a few cases where you could start a fire with conventional bullets due to the target material. Aluminum or Magnesium may be materials that would start a fire if struck with conventional copper or lead bullets.
Zero Tolerance covers a large range of circumstances where the officials do not have to think or reason logically. They make and enforce rules that may not have any sound reasoning to them and they think it is their job to do so because they are given the authority to do so.
It is not so much that they are anti-gun but have authority to make up the rules that is the least amount of work on them.

[Jim..47]

I saw a documented case of conventional ammo used to start a fire. The bullet was pulled from the case and the powder was poured on some tender and he used a spark generator to light the powder. It started a fire right up! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


Why! I can hardly believe it started a fire. Just think how much worse it would have been if there were an actual live bullet in the gun? Surely proof enogh for any wise thinking Dumbocrat! :lol:

[45 Shooter]

Tried to go shooting in the 60's in the hills (mountains) N.E. of LA. Found it was posted no shooting allowed due to fire hazard, but you could have campfires. Exited left coast as soon as possible.

Makes sense to me.......:groner: Must be a Commiefornia thing.

[Marlin Junky]

NM is also a Blue State.

MJ

[1Shirt]

Run hit it on the head!
1Shirt

[dbosman]

It might be safe to clean some of those out of the way berms.

[Idz]

Well, I just back from the range, before they close it, and the consensus of folks there was this nonsense about shutting down 'gravel pit' pistol ranges due to 'fire hazard' is something that appeared with the current administration. I'm sure if asked about it they would say 'I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing! and we strongly support the second amendment unless you don't want us to'.

[Duckiller]

They closed the forest to shooting in the 60's because you drove there burning leaded gas. Only shoot at approved ranges now. Can not shoot ammo that is attracked to magnets. People doing the checking can't tell if the projectile or case is magnetic. My recent experience with Forest Service personel is that they are not outdoorsmen or women. They have a tree hugger degrees and are just interested in keeping their immediate boss happy. It the 80's the Forest Service had reasonable people that wanted the average citizen to enjoy the Forest. Now they just worry, "What if some one gets hurt?"

[blackthorn]

Well---The politicaly correct thing these days is to make everyone suffer because there are a few idiots out there who would ignore sane well thought out rules and set fire to the world! The biggest thing is there is NO accountability! I don't know how things work where you all are but our campgrounds require permits. So logic tells me they have someone checking rec sites. All they would have to do is record licence numbers and if there is live fire left unattended a $10,000.00 fine would go a long way to making folks more responsible. For fires that get away from the owners, they should be assessed the full cost to fight and clean up plus any damage to private property that results.

[dakotashooter2]

The biggest (and probably only) cause of firearms related fires.............. The shooter tossing his cigarette in the brush............................

[JeffinNZ]

It's a "firearm" so it must make fire. Right?

A friend of mine had a run in with a forest 'ranger' in Kalifornia that ended up costing my friend a lot of money but also resulted in a humilated 'ranger'. Power mad guvmint employees. Don't think they are exclusive to the USA either.

[303Guy]

I was stopped from firing a 22 in a quarry in a forest because of the fire hazard. Forest fire hazards make foresters edgy - there's a lot at stake. The fire watch guy should have limited his alcohol intake before entering the forest - alcohol is highly flammable in high concentrations, hick, slur, stagger.

[uscra112]

There is of course the occasional damfool that buys and shoots tracers. Seen it in Michigan, also seen it at the range I shoot at now. The hill behind this range is hardwood forest, and a few dry leaves . . . . .

I still wonder what it is about some shooters that they have to ignore simple safety considerations. Furthermore, (I'm in rant mode here), they always seem to be the ones that won't join and use a club range - they'd rather drive to heck-and-gone to some remote site where they can make a mess and leave it for someone else to pick up. And do they ever! </rant>

[Tatume]

My brother recently retired as a forester for the DoD. He has fought fires caused by shooting guns on military ranges his entire career. The M16 is probably the least offensive gun in this regard, yet it starts fires every year when the fuel is dry. The danger is real.

[Case Stuffer]

Some rocks are flint, flint is sometimes used to make a spark. It is possible for a boolit or J word to strike a flint rock and create a spark which could start a fire. The odds are slim but if enough bullets hit enough rocks anything is possible .

[Idz]

Military uses lots of tracers rounds, exploding shells, and steel core penetrater rounds, they all can start fires. Shoot a steel core at a rock and you can make hot sparks. Hit the rock with lead or copper and you may be able to get a cold spark if everything is just right.

To create a hot spark you have to peel off a speck of steel and heat it up to its ignition point. The burning steel provides the energy to ignite the tinder. The impact provides the frictional energy to ignite the steel speck as a hot spark. With other materials you can also produce a cold spark that you can see but lacks enough energy to ignite tinder (for 'non-sparking' tools they actually test this by using carbon disulphide which is vastly easier to ignite than tinder).

If you doubt the OSHA, FS, DOD, and other scientists who study this then you should get some tinder, a rock, and some lead and copper hammers and see if you can get get a fire going. That its really hard to do makes logical sense since rocks are always falling off cliffs and banging into each other and yet you don't see the entire country ablaze because of it.

P.S. An interesting tidbit you learn in Wildland Firefighting school is that all fires are presumed Human Caused unless it can be proven otherwise.

[Win94ae]

Here is where I cut the chain on my target and it produced sparks, (or what have you,) that could have caused a fire.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqbbSYFS9X0

That was using jacketed hunting bullets.

[dilly]

They closed the forest to shooting in the 60's because you drove there burning leaded gas. Only shoot at approved ranges now. Can not shoot ammo that is attracked to magnets. People doing the checking can't tell if the projectile or case is magnetic. My recent experience with Forest Service personel is that they are not outdoorsmen or women. They have a tree hugger degrees and are just interested in keeping their immediate boss happy. It the 80's the Forest Service had reasonable people that wanted the average citizen to enjoy the Forest. Now they just worry, "What if some one gets hurt?"

You are absolutely right about that. My father was a forester for about 40 years, and just retired a few years ago. He was so sick of how the Forest Service had become a refuge for liberal, tree hugging, nature worshiping ignorance by the the time he retired.

Another thing people seem to overlook about forest fires is that they absolutely WILL happen eventually. It's a natural process, and a law of nature. The longer you wait, the hotter it burns. In some ways we need less fire prevention, and more (smarter) fire management. If you think about it, any situation in which one tiny spark from a bullet sets the forest ablaze is a situation in which the forest is going to light up for one of a million other reasons before long anyway.

Right now we've got so many trees in the west dead from bark beetles (the trees were more susceptible because of a draught) that we're in for a lot of nasty fires. Whether it's campers, smokers, shooters, or lightningyou can't really prevent some of these things.

[44man]

My brother recently retired as a forester for the DoD. He has fought fires caused by shooting guns on military ranges his entire career. The M16 is probably the least offensive gun in this regard, yet it starts fires every year when the fuel is dry. The danger is real.
They shoot millions of tracers and all kinds of stuff.

[Cmemiss]

As a retired firefighter I can only add two things. 1. How many road signs have you seen shot up? 2. Murphy was an optimist.

[MtGun44]

Never ever even considered shooting a road sign. Even as a teenager I thought
this was the worst kind if irresponsible stupidity.

Milspec 5.56 ammo is often M855, with a tiny steel tip insert or M855A1 with a big steel tip.
M193 is all copper alloy and lead. The first two could clearly cause a spark, and therefore a fire.
Lead boolit pistol ammo, no way. Copper jacketed lead, I'd need a LOT of solid proof.
We use bronze tools in explosives environments because they are non-sparking. Doubt that
copper alloys can spark under any conditions.

Bill

[Nickle]

I retired from the automotive trade. Non-sparking hammers will have lead or aluminum faces. Copper would work too.

Now, I can see limiting usage, because there's always going to be some idiot that just doesn't have a clue that he's got steel core bullets, or even tracers.

I was a .mil employee, not .gov, and I agree with the statements made about liberal morons working for them. But, ask yourself what the political background of someone that gets a higher degree in forestry is. I know a couple of conservatives that got into forestry, but they are a minority.

[Harter66]

Currently,at least on the ammo depot I worked on for 17yr the ''brass'' tools are barillium,it is bronze colored but much more durable,for example pry/crow bars, ballpeen hammers, and sockets are used for years......decades. Lots of them are stamped USN , the contractor took over in 1980.

I've seen impact sparks w/lead/copper bullets but it was more likely from the massive amounts of iron,tungstun,iron pyrite, mangenese etc in the decomposed granite and magma/lava that makes up 95% of the earth here.

I miss read automotive for ammunition in the above post.

[Lance Boyle]

My brother recently retired as a forester for the DoD. He has fought fires caused by shooting guns on military ranges his entire career. The M16 is probably the least offensive gun in this regard, yet it starts fires every year when the fuel is dry. The danger is real.

ummm, yeah tracers, even if you shoot into a berm, they can riccochet off and into the brush or just burn on the surface of the berm. I've been downrange more than once as a machine gunner to put out brush fires from our tracers.

ETA- yeah, I work for a state agency of the same type. In my time I've seen cool older vets who got their degrees after military service replaced by the new dope smoking hippie types. You want to talk about people throwing forth completely unreasonably regulations because they said so. :-(

[leadman]

WE have had many fires caused by some moron shooting in the desert of forests here in Az. On guy was shooting the "flamethrower" shotgun rounds in the woods.
We even had a fire on the public range just behind the backstop. Probably a steel jacket or core. They have a water truck on site so it only took 15 minutes or so to get it out.
The biggest fire in AZ. was caused by 2 young guys that left their campfire burning when they left. Over 500,000 acres! The next larcgest was actually 2 fires that combined, one set by a stranded motorist and the other by a fire fighter that wanted some work.

[Nickle]

Yup, I do agree that campfires are much more likely to cause trouble.

First off, the end user is far more likely to be ignorant.

Secondly, it's already a fire, just needs to spread, not start.

And Lance, I'm a couple hundred miles east of you.

[Mal Paso]

One of the worst forest fires here was started by some campers the read somewhere, that it was Environmentally Correct to Burn Your Toilet Paper.

Does make me smile imagining them trying to stomp it out.

[Shiloh]

Seem I read about a fellow who wanted to freelance an article to one of the gun mags years ago. The scenario was gas cans on the back of an off road vehicle.

He tried shooting jerry cans full of gas, partially full and empty. He had many cans and couldn't get one to catch fire or exoplode. The editors were not interested as nothing happened.

Shiloh

[BAGTIC]

Years ago Johnny Cash and June Carter got sued in California because they drove their motor home over tall dry grass which caught fire, There are lots of ways to cause a fire but I imagine shooters is one of the least likely. I grew up in California and I recall instances where wildfires were attributed to the sun shining through a piece of broken glass.

[mdi]

it's called ZERO tolerance.
see how it works is instead of actually having to think you just ban everything.
+1!
Yep, they did it in the buzzard area of CA too...

[Green Frog]

I still wonder what it is about some shooters that they have to ignore simple safety considerations. Furthermore, (I'm in rant mode here), they always seem to be the ones that won't join and use a club range - they'd rather drive to heck-and-gone to some remote site where they can make a mess and leave it for someone else to pick up. And do they ever! </rant>

Well, around here they join clubs and trash the range. I keep telling them if they want to shoot at a place like a dump to please go shoot at the dump, but they're too *#@%# stupid to take a hint! Of course they never show up for work days, or if they do ask when we'll be finished so they can shoot! [smilie=b:

Froggie

[donald duck]

I am not a fan of shooting in our forests, a controlled rifle or pistol range is much safer. Also we do not want to give the FS evEn a slim chance to blame shooters. ThEy are just another government org. that is out of control. Why did they not call out the Air force Tanker planes in the Arizona fires until two days after 19 Brave Firefighters Died. The higher ups need to be fired and replaced by troops on the ground. Now we learn our commander in chief says no Fourth of July celebrations on military bases. I thinkEegypt has the right idea and I personally would like to see a coup here in the US. Enough of this muslim dictator. Out with obama!!! NOw!!

[Mal Paso]

+1!
Yep, they did it in the buzzard area of CA too...

I live in that Buzzard Area and I won't leave a Boolit outside unprotected. Those Condors can spot a Boolit from 1500 feet, swoop down, and your Boolits are gone in seconds. Loaded Ammo isn't safe either. That Beak was designed to crack cartridges. I move my ammo around in plane brown boxes so they don't get wise. And I don't leave any reloading supplies where they can be seen from a window. A bird that size could break into my place easily.

[Harter66]

Holy derailment donald duck ...........

[303Guy]

Those Condors can spot a Boolit from 1500 feet, swoop down, and your Boolits are gone in seconds.So, are you saying the hype about the condors is not hype but real fact? I wish people who make up strange rules would come out with an explanation so we know where they are coming from.

I've seen many, many fires started by matches or cigarette butts from a car. The matches were used to deliberately set fire to dry grass each autumn and winter. Dropped cig butts are a give away when the fire starts from the side of the road. I lived in a part of the world where the hunting months were the dry months and I never heard of a fire started by a fired bullet. Unattended camp fires, yes. Fires not properly put out after the campers/picnickers had left, yes. And the suns rays being focused through glass. And carelessly dropped cig butts.

[historicfirearms]

I agree with most that lead or copper bullets are very unlikely to start a fire. Having said that, I had a AK pistol for a while that would shoot a 5 foot long ball of flames out of the muzzle with each shot. I'm pretty sure that could start a fire under the right conditions.

[Changeling]

Now what do you do!

The next election for ANYONE, start asking questions as to there feelings toward gun control and who/what they support in your community or government, be it local/state or federal, I don't care if it is a dogcatcher to the president! You all have seen what the last ellection brought us!

If you sit on your donkey from now on thinking things will get better, dream ON! These *** holes don't care about the truth, they just want to jump on a band wagon. When the next war comes and it will these same yuppies will start crying HELP ME, HELP ME!!!!!

[Nickle]

No, no, no. Don't ever ask them. Why? Because many of them simply can't be trusted to tell the truth.

You need to research their record, analyze it, then vote accordingly. It isn't perfect, but, a whole lot better than that Democrat candidate in 2004 that told us he hunted ducks, and posed with a shotgun. Then he proceeded to give us a total song and dance that proved he was lying. You know, the same dirtbag that's currently the Sec State.

[AW738]

Talk about two faced. Our junior senator Joe Manchin is the definition of a hypocrite.

[swheeler]

It's a "firearm" so it must make fire. Right?

A friend of mine had a run in with a forest 'ranger' in Kalifornia that ended up costing my friend a lot of money but also resulted in a humilated 'ranger'. Power mad guvmint employees. Don't think they are exclusive to the USA either.

My friend too, and yes that was a s***** deal for Charlie:(

[BAGTIC]

Based on that reasoning they should not permit motor vehicles in the area either because if some fuel spilled on the ground it could cause a fire. Possibility is different from probability. In early writings about those new fangled self propelled carriages there were incessant warnings about the dangers of their 'highly explosive' fuels and the dangers thereof. The real danger of permitting shooting in fire prone areas is not the guns it is the autos and cigarettes that shooting areas attract. Even then by far most such fires are caused by lightning so why don't they simply prohibit lightning.

[BAGTIC]

California condors have also died from drinking auto antifreeze that leaked on to the ground. Ban anti-freeze.


BAN EVERYTHING

[kartooo]

i have to admit several yrs ago i startred a grass fire at my club with a black powder rifle.
it was a dry dry summer day when me and a friend were shooting our 50 cal patch and ball rifles at the club range.
after several shots we saw smoke about 15ft in frt of us in the dry grass. i never believed it was possible but one of our patches was glowing just enough to start it off. we stomped it out instantly. we were using lubed patches and real black powder.
never happend again even after several more shots so i guess conditions have to be perfect.