223 Rem Concentricity issues, need help.

[wallenba]

I cast some Lyman 225415's (55 gr), sized them in a new Lee .224 die. They checked a little big, but OK. After seating, they looked a bit 'funny'. When I checked them with my Sinclair concentricity gauge they averaged a whopping .016 TIR ! The cases check OK at the shoulder and the neck. Neck wall thickness varies only slightly. I made some dummies with another brand of brass, same results. I used a 'M' die to expand and all went well there. I can't seem to find the cause. I have marked a few on the high side with a marker and tweaked them more or less straight. I'm wondering though if my new Lee die could be off center, and how I could rule the die out as the problem?:veryconfu

[MtGun44]

Hornady dies have a floating sleeve to keep the boolit straight as it is
seated. Redding and Forster make very expensive 'benchrest' seaters that
also have the floating sleeve. I ONLY buy Hornady rifle dies anymore.

Bill

[randyrat]

Are you using a TURRET press? I've seen the turrets pop up a little from wear.

[Bullshop]

Sounds like the seating stem is not fitting the boolit olgive. You said it is a Lee die. In a Lee seater die the seating stem can be inverted and they will sometimes come from the factory that way. One end is recessed to fit the boolit/bullet and the other end is flat. First check to see if the seating stem has been inverted and has the flat end down.
If that is not the problem check the recessed end for fit to your boolit. There could be a burr causing the boolit to tip while being seated or the recessed cut is a poor fit to your boolit olgive or something else with the seating stem like the recess being bored off center.
One other mistake people make is in locking down the die in the press before alignment has been made. Let the die float until the press ram pushes it into alignment then lock it down.

[wallenba]

Sorry fellas, I was not clear on the dies. It's the sizing die I'm suspicious of. Lee sizers are supposed to have a section in the mouth that centers the boolit before the boolit enters. I am wondering if the boolit gets guided off center leaving the nose and driving band section on different axes.

Bullshop, you have a good point, and I'll check that out. My seater is a Redding. I have not used the mold in a long, long time.
I put the mold away once before, and forgot why. Maybe this was it? I need to get myself a 'V' block to check the boolit itself after sizing, it's just to small to check with the Sinclair gauge.

If it is just not seating straight I can deal with that. But if it is sized off center, nothing will fix that except a new sizer. The reason I think it might be the sizer is they come out of the .224 sizer as, .2245 by .225. Big and not round.

I'm going to try and straighten them out. I can get the end an RCBS primer tool tube over the nose and tweak it some. I've tipped a few within .003. then I'll shoot them. That will tell me a lot.

[ipijohn]

Your bullet would have to be way oversize for the sizer to size it .008 off center giving you the .016 TIR?

[Bullshop]

The .2245 x .225 would not be uncommon. It would just show that your sizer die is out of round by half a thousandth. That is not uncommon.
The .001" discrepancy between the die and the final boolit diameter is also normal spring back with some alloys.
It could also be that the die is not a true .224" diameter.
Something you should check is the ram of the press you are using to size the boolits. Look for anything in the milled slot that the base punch (shell holder) fits into. It may be that your base punch is no going into alignment with the die center. There could be a burr on the ram or just some crud built up. If the bottom punch is not in alignment with the die center it will ware one side of the die and cause the out of round sizing. It will cause the same ware on the punch as well. The base punch should be centered and have some free movement in the press ram. The mill cut in the ram should be clean and lubricated to allow the punch to center. Any abnormalities in the milled cut in the ram should be addressed so there are no mechanical restrictions to the base punch (shell holder) going fully to center.

[dkf]

I have run into concentricity issues when I do not put enough flare on the case mouth. Bullet got seated crooked.

[detox]

Cutting the sprue will make boolits out of round (especially softer alloys). Inspect the sprue hole on plate to see if it is sharp so it cuts easier. Hard Linotype makes a more concentric bullet because it shrinks less and fills mould well. What alloy are you using?

[madsenshooter]

I had a similar problem in my 6x45, bad fitting seating stem was the main culprit, but another part of it was the floating sleeve MtGun is talking about above. Nothing wrong with it either, except the way I had it adjusted. It was starting to crimp, but not quite, touching just enough to give me a lot of rounds with runout. Adjusting it may have solved the problem, but I opted to get a seater from CH4D that didn't have a crimp, and least in my mind, supported the case more than that floating sleeve of the Hornady. I'm often swapping seating stems around or making my own. Come to think of it, even with the CH4D die I wound up using the stem out of a Redding die.

[wallenba]

Dkf, I'm using an 'M' die and the gas checked boolit sat very nicely on the ledge.

Randyrat, I'm using a Redding Boss single stage with a Hornady LNL bushing. So, I don't think it's a flexing issue.

Bullshop, there is a small amount of contact between the punch and the inside of the die. I don't think it is a wear issue, as the die is new. Not enough miles on it yet. It looks as though the spring circlip in the ram is tipping the punch a bit off center (spring pressure). Do you think that would affect concentricity? The gas check gets seated squarely, and I don't have this problem with any other calibers.

[Bullshop]

I doubt it will effect concentricity unless it restricts the punch from aligning with the die. If the punch is free to align without resistance or very light resistance all should be well.
I suppose it is possible that the entry cone and the sizing portion of the die could have been bored out of alignment with each other. That would cause the boolit to have to kind of turn a corner when it is being pushed through the die. That could cause and out of round issue in the boolit.
Maybe you could send someone with a similar type of die a few of your boolits and see how they mic from a different die.

[wallenba]

Bullshop, I think you may have found my problem. I'll have to repeat the testing to confirm. I moved the sizng die to another press (T-7 Redding) no LNL bushings and a less aggressive spring clip. I sized and checked a boolit. Then took another case, 'M' expanded and seated the boolit. Concentricity checks an acceptable .0025 . If I can repeat this several more times I'll chalk it up to alignment problems. I think maybe these issues get magnified with the smaller diameter boolits. Also, I might have to rethink the use of the Hornady LNL bushings, at least with my rifle reloading. Reason being that I have sometimes noticed while full length sizing brass, that it is necessary to remove and rotate a die in the bushing when the case mouths are bumping the entry to the die. That tells me things might not be centered well, maybe a little slop in the interface of the lugs and recesses.

Update: Successive tests failed. Three more dummies made, all were out .006 to .008. Less than before, but not acceptable, the good one must have been a fluke. I think the short neck of the 223 allows for more chance to tip. I'll have to table this until I can try some other seaters.

[MT Chambers]

Softer cast bullets can be bent in the bullet sizing process esp. when using the Lyman or Rcbs sizers, otherwise it could be your seating die as others have said.

[Bullshop]

OH that is good news!!!
Cuz frankly I was running out of ideas.

[wallenba]

OH that is good news!!!
Cuz frankly I was running out of ideas.

Sorry to dissappoint, I jumped the gun as you can see in the update of the post. I pulled out the Lyman 4500 sizer and did a few, then moved the dies over to the T-7. Things did tighten up a bit, but still way out, pointing more and more toward the seater being the problem. I'm just going to pull them all and put some J's in for now. Maybe what I need here is a set of Wilson dies.

MT Chambers, I started with Lyman #2 and added some pure Lino. The BHN is 19, pretty hard, but with such a small boolit, they still can be pushed around with all the leverage on presses.

[detox]

Can you check concentricity of individual cast boolit? It may be hard to check being so small. I know i can check using my NECO gauge.

[Bullshop]

Maybe you can tweak the seating stem to be a good fit.

[detox]

Maybe your boolits are being cast out of round. If mould halves do not line up exact you will have such a problem. Check individual boolit runout or measure for out of round using micrometer or dial caliper.

[detox]

No cast boolit is perfectly round...especially the unsized bore ride section, but you can get close

[wallenba]

Softer cast bullets can be bent in the bullet sizing process esp. when using the Lyman or Rcbs sizers, otherwise it could be your seating die as others have said.

I don't have bending with this one, it's only a 55 gr 224 boolit. I do have the bending problem with my heavier 6mm boolits as they are long and thin. I use push through Lee type dies for those. When this problem first reared up, it was with a Lee also. I went to the 4500 to try to rule out a variable.
I don't have the NECO, just the Sinclair and a Hornady which is useless here. I'm going to go to MSC industrial supply tomorrow and get a V block. I've got a small steel surface plate and a magnetic base dial indicator and stand. My fat fingers and this tiny boolit will be working against me though.