what wears out a barrel faster?

[bikerbeans]

I was listening to the "talking heads" at the local gun shop the other day and their collective opinion is hard cast lead will wear out a barrel faster than copper jacketed lead bullets. What do you folks think?

BB

[fecmech]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

[Echo]

Silliness...

[Bullshop]

What is the bhn of antimony? I think alloys with high antimony low tin may be more erosive than an alloy with a balance of the two.
Another factor to consider is pressure. Weather using jacketed or cast low pressure loads wear a barrel less than high pressure loads.
If you started with two new barrels in the same chambering and fired only factory jacketed ammo in one and only cast in the other and both were loaded to the same pressure I think rate of barrel wear will be about the same. The alloy content would have some bearing however.

[jmort]

I am a novice, but I literally spent many many hours over the course of a couple three weeks studying all the stickies here at Cast Boolits, and reading everything I could before I began posting in earnest. I quickly realized that most everything I thought I knew was wrong when it came to cast boolits. Gun shops are not categorically bad places for information, but when it comes to cast boolits, there is a lot of bad/wrong/harmful information "out there."

[ShooterAZ]

Cleaning (especially improper) is probably one of the leading causes of barrel wear. One of the things I love most about cast boolits is that I hardly ever even have to clean the barrel. My auto pistols get cleaned more often to retain good functioning, but my rifle barrels get to go a long ways between cleanings.

[mdi]

I have found, that for some reason or quirk in personality, some just have to be an expert. Whether the wife brow beats, or Daddy called him stupid, there's usually one that is in need of validation/recognition of something more than his "peers".

Or, sum guys are jes full of B.S.

[303Guy]

I've found rust to be the major cause of wear. Since jacketeds are dry and cast are lubed, which will promote more rust? I'm talking very fine rust which gets shot out each firing. Not a factor if a barrel is cleaned after each session at the range but a barrel left uncleaned between shots like on a field trip?

[ku4hx]

Neither; heat wears a barrel out. That's why they wear out at the chamber end long before the muzzle end is even minutely affected.

[canyon-ghost]

Why then are there 80 year old .22 lr rifles out there that have like new rifling? They only fire lead bullets, never jacketed. Cast lead is usually easier on a barrel than jacketed but, I wouldn't go out of my way to argue that point.

Generally, I think quietly to myself, "heathens." lol.

[Changeling]

Barrels are worn out by heat and the abrasion of the powder. Rifle barrels can have a second life by cuting off 2 or 3 inches and rechambering for a new throat area where the bulk of the wear is done.
Revolvers probably wear out the forcing cone before any barrel dmage is done.

[felix]

Heat is the only culprit we should be afraid of. Pressure is heat! We are NOT talking about heat we feel on the outside of the barrel, but only the 3K-4K Fahrenheit heat developed by the powder as applied to the minute inside layer of the barrel which MELTS and/or evaporates. Melting with the application of added nitrogen from the powder makes the inside layer extremely brittle, and cracks in the metal begin to appear. Projectiles can and will rip out random metal islands which are defined by the cracks. The island layers are minuscule in thickness but can be seen with a quality bore-scope. ... felix

[dromia]

Concur with Bullshop and above powder gases will give throat wear and degrade accuracy long before the projectiles will wear the barrel out out.

[Idz]

The way the old farmers wore out their barrels with lead bullets was to have the loose rounds laying in glovebox. The jacketed bullets didn't pick up the sand the way the lubed lead did so they didn't sandpaper the barrel.

[country gent]

I have been taught by several knowlegable people . Heat, abrasiveness, intensity all affect barrel wear. Improper cleaning ruins barrels but its not actually "wear from firing". Unburnt powder is abrasive , roll some between your finger and thumb sometime. Tis has a minute peening and sand blasting effect on the throat. Carbon and firing residue is also abrasive. Heat levels afect the barrel materials. Getting a barrel to hot to touch reduces life. A high intesity cartridge like a 243 has a very high expansion to bore ratio and optimum barrel like is short ( my last course gun in 243 went 2500 rounds roughly. A 308 with the slightly larger bore and basically the same powder and charges is a lower expansion ratio, My last M1a barrel went 5000 rds. Ive never worked with a 358 win but suspect optimum barrel life would be around 6000-6500 rds. Heres the real winner with the small charges of powder even with the small bore size a 223 is also lower expansion ratio my last 223 match rifle went 7800 rds. I have heard of 10000 rds in AR service rifles in 223. I have a 1-7 twist 22-250 ( set up for 80 grn bullets) Im only expecting about 1800-2000 rds from it. My gunsmiths 6-284 with the large charges and small bore is around 1200 rds optimum barrel life. The more powder you burn and the faster you burn it the faster the barrel goes. A rough throat or rough surface finish also speeds this as the minute edges burn polish away faster than a smoother surface. I routinely moniter my barrels with a Hawkeye bore scope and the dry cracked surface slowly proced from the chamber forward as round count goes up. The 243 barrel with 2500 rds was almost 4" forward. Some powders are worse than others due to flame temperatures, abrasiveness, and fouling produced. We shot alot of surpluss GI 380 in 308 and it tended to burn the "middle" of the barrel out. Section a burnt out semi autos barrel at the gas port and you will see a radious burnt on the edge from gas cutting. I did this with a M1A barrel ( Krieger SS 1-10 twist 5000 rds) and the radious was almost .020 ( est) on the corner I sectioned this barrel at the chamber forward and at the port. Burnt throat was 3-4" forward and the edge of the port. My friend used this barrel to "show" barrel wear burn to customers. I magine the dry cracked mud in the summer time and that is what you see in the bore scope. I dont consider rust pits, improper cleaning, improper use of chemicals as wear but neglect.Clean a large bore rifle with a tight brush or patch on a 22 cal rod and you can due more damage than several hunderd rounds shooting due to rod flex. Leave chemical cleaners to long or mixed with others and again damage can occur. Many things contribute to barrel life or lack of, some can be controlled some are the nature of the beast.

[felix]

BR barrels, shooting 65K ammo, are gone within a 1000 rounds. We are talking 22-33 grains of powder max in 224-243 stainless barrels. These barrels are almost never too hot to hold. ... felix

[b2948kevin]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

Lol! True... I usually judge the experience of a shooter by how little he wants to force his opinion on others. I am very data driven, so I like to talk facts when learning about stuff.

[Bonz]

I usually get bored with a gun and trade/sell it before I wear the barrel out ;-)

[JeffinNZ]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

Agreed. Most of the guys who 'work' in the gun shops I know of a the run at the mouth sort who have an opinion of everything and real knowledge of just about nothing.

Once you've worn a gun out let's talk. It won't be soon.

[Bullshop]

You don't have to be an authority on guns and related subjects to work the gun counter in many places that sell guns. You just need to be willing to work for low wages.

[Don Purcell]

Kent Lomont put over 200,000, yes two hundred thousand, 250 grain Keith level loads down 1 Smith and Wesson Model 29 back in the sixties. Other than forcing cone erosion the barrel was still good. Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard this **** from some person who has never cast a bullet telling other people to stay away from lead bullets.

[country gent]

Another fact that needs to be taken into accounthere is what constitutes a worn out barrel? The benchresters barrel that is "gone" will still perform good for a High power shooter. A High power shooters barrel will satisfy most Varmint deer hunters. And the beginner plinker may not now a good barrel from a bad one. My 243 barrel will still clean the reduced targets at 200 yds but was costing me Xs at full 600 yds. Alot depends on the shooter and his requirements and skill level. A deer hunter hunting heavy timber where shots at 50 yds are long will never wear out a barrel.

[MT Gianni]

A cleaning rod used improperly wins this contest by a long shot.

[bikerbeans]

I was listening to the "talking heads" at the local gun shop the other day and their collective opinion is hard cast lead will wear out a barrel faster than copper jacketed lead bullets. What do you folks think?

BB

I went to the gun shop for the free cookies, not the free wisdom.

BB

[Harter66]

The GI standard bbl life was set at 30 seconds for the 06' or 10,000 rounds. It actually comes out to .007?? seconds per shot. That w/GI FMJ,AP and tracer full auto bbls dont last as long .

I will sight a brand new rifle I'm working . 23 grains of RL10x behind a 7mm 120gr copper clad SP netted 2230 fps while the PP'd 130gr 27-130 launched w/21gr yielded 2250 fps . My guess is that the pressures were similar as the cast and patched boolit was heavier but clocked faster ,it also did it on 9.5% less powder. Less powder , less heat,lower dwell time less wear....

[Petrol & Powder]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

Agreed ! They might sell guns at gun stores but they give the misinformation away for free and in large amounts.

[MtGun44]

Flame eats the throat. More powder and heat, more throat wear. This is what
really kills a barrel, not the bullet or boolit rubbing down the bore. Most boolit
loads have much less heat because they are burning much less powder.

Bill

[Shiloh]

Poor and/or improper cleaning procedures. More barrels are ruined by this than anything else.

Shiloh

[duck hollow pete]

Post #11 they have'nt been fired enough, you will get a ring and then wear on the rifling, its called the T-22 ring.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have a 25-06 I built in 72 with a Douglas 5a barrel. I dont have a bore scope, but it still shoots right 3/4" for five at 100. Records show a bit over 8000 reloads using 56gr h4831 and an 87gr Hornady. The barrel may be junk now but as long as it will hold to an inch ore thereabout I guess I will keep it.

[Epd230]

Look at the shelves in that gun shop. When you don't see any casting supplies, or cast bullets for sale, that should answer your question about his advice.

Any gun shop employee/owner is a salesman first and foremost.

[unique]

While we are debunking the local gun store I have to tell you the owner of lgs was insistent that his 30-30 ammo from Remington was better than Walmart's version since Walmart buys a lower quality version.. I think he really believed this.

[dkf]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

:goodpost:

[KCSO]

Took match grade accuracy from a 308 in 6000 rounds with jacketed, with cast lead over 12,000 and no change in accuracy.

[Changeling]

Post #11 they have'nt been fired enough, you will get a ring and then wear on the rifling, its called the T-22 ring.

Hi dhp, you might be on to some thing there, but I thought it was called the G-String phenominum, very little wear! YMMV! Sorry, it just jumped out of my mind from somewhare!

[1500FPS]

Heat, powder abrasion, gas erosion, bullet friction, cleaning rods

[Bullshop]

I do not own any gun that I do not deliberately try to ware out the barrel in. Isn't that the idea? I do not own any gun to look at. All my guns are for shooting so they are all in various stages of barrel ware.
When I finally get one worn out I will have much to reflect on most of which should be good. So go ahead and ware out a barrel today and make some good memories before its too late.

[Bullshop]

Took match grade accuracy from a 308 in 6000 rounds with jacketed, with cast lead over 12,000 and no change in accuracy.

At equal pressure?

[cheetah]

Ebay ruins barrels faster than anything - but I still take my chances there rather than listen to some old fart who knows it all. Copper is more abrasive than lead and it burns oil dry as opposed to the layer of lube sprayed in the bore.

[Bullshop]

Copper may be more abrasive than lead but I doubt its more abrasive than antimony. There are antimony crystals with sharp pointy edges in them lead alloys.

[felix]

Right on, Dan! Compensatory tin is the only thing we should use to soften the blow of antimony. ... felix

[mroliver77]

Guru told my friend it is the dirt from dirty wheelweights.

I do think shooting cast is bad for your guns. I dont need competition for lead!

[303Guy]

One of the reason given not to shoot jacketeds in the old 22lr converted hornets is that the soft steel barrel would get worn out quickly by the copper jackets. I would think someone found out the hard way?

How do these 'experts' think dirt from old wheel weights gets into or onto a boolit? Doh!

[jlchucker]

The last place I would go for any gun related opinions would be a gun shop!

That's for certain!

[Bullshop]

Ignorance is bliss! Let there be ignorance.

[fcvan]

I have found that boolits cast from wheel weights aren't as hard on the barrel after the steel clips are removed :)

[Bullshop]

You must shoot some really big bores.

[truckjohn]

If you look at the changes that came out...

Way back in the day... nearly all rifle barrels were made out of free machining, low carbon steel... It took a wonderful surface finish and required very little in the way of incantations or gyrations to get a good barrel cut.... Life with the lower temperature Black Powder and lead bullets was long.... or at least long enough that they rotted/rusted out before they wore out....

Most 22lr barrels today are still made that way (Low carbon, free machining steel)... Our buddy from Down Under kinda pointed towards that with 22lr to Hornet conversions and how fast the you can strip out rifling with those Hornets shooting Jacketed in 22lr barrels.....

Smokeless powder came out long before the Jacketed bullet.... AND.. It required a brand new type of steel or barrel life was really short....

Jacketed bullets came out afterwards - and they were also found to need the newer, more abrasion and heat resistant steels too....

Literally - you can strip the rifling right out of an old "Antique" rifle by shooting Jacketed ammo in them.... but you can shoot low velocity, low temperature Cast loads using "Modern" shotgun and pistol powders in them - and they have a long barrel life....

Thanks

[Bullshop]

I agree with stripping rifling from old barrels with jacketed bullets. I have seen some 45/70 Trapdoors so stripped of their rifling from shooting jacketed bullets.

[Idaho Mule]

I don't know if this has any bearing on the subject but I just feel the need to add it. Remember back when lead was added to gasoline? And do you re-call why it was added? JW

[country gent]

Lead was added to gasoline to lubricat the upper end valves and cylinders. It also helped to reduce knocking and pinging in high compression motors. Lead and tin act a lubricants under pressure. Thrust bearing and bearings used to be lead alloy mixtures known as Babbit metals. Poured and hand fitted in the housings.

[uscra112]

The way the old farmers wore out their barrels with lead bullets was to have the loose rounds laying in glovebox. The jacketed bullets didn't pick up the sand the way the lubed lead did so they didn't sandpaper the barrel.

BINGO. :goodpost: If Idz hadn't said it I was going to.

[uscra112]

Lead was added to gasoline to lubricat the upper end valves and cylinders. It also helped to reduce knocking and pinging in high compression motors. Lead and tin act a lubricants under pressure. Thrust bearing and bearings used to be lead alloy mixtures known as Babbit metals. Poured and hand fitted in the housings.

Lead was added to gasoline only as an anti-knock additive. This came about by a prolonged campaign by none other than Jimmy Doolittle, who had some experience with the detonation problem in aircraft racing engines. They never thought a bit about it as a lubricant. Adding the lead enabled the US to run high compression engines on 100 and even 115 octane gas during WW2, whereas Germany had standardized on 80 octane gas and couldn't. This actually caused engine mechanics no end of trouble, since the lead would foul spark plugs. How would you like to be told to change all 144 plugs in a B-24 by 04:00 hours tomorrow morning, when you've been working all day on the hydraulics that got shot up over Germany yesterday?

It is true the additive does form a lead film on the exhaust valve contact surfaces, which inhibits erosion of the valves and seats by preventing microwelding when the hot valve is closed. An unintended consequence however was that when high test gas was run in low-compression engines, (e.g. the 1940's Ford 8N farm tractor, which was 6.5:1), the exhaust was not hot enough to keep the lead from building up too thickly on the valves. They would start to leak because they weren't closing properly, and then would burn out. This led to a myth that high test gas "burned too hot" for ordinary engines.

You really wanted to know all that, didn't you ! [smilie=2:

[303Guy]

Actually, yes, thanks. I knew the lead was an incidental lubricant and if I recall it only became apparent with the changeover to lead free fuels. Lead free fuels lead to new technology materials in engines which has resulted in extended engine life. I could be misinformed ...... ? Now there's more lead for making boolits!

[felix]

Nope, not misinformed. ... felix

[Lance Boyle]

I have found, that for some reason or quirk in personality, some just have to be an expert. Whether the wife brow beats, or Daddy called him stupid, there's usually one that is in need of validation/recognition of something more than his "peers".

Or, sum guys are jes full of B.S.

yep, had some guy who "is a trained army sniper" tell me his custom mauser actioned .280 drops 4" at at 1000 yards. Freaking magic! gun shops and range commandos are fountains of something or other.

[10 ga]

The fastest way to "wear out" a barrel is to use holy black or 777 or Pyrodex and then don't clean that thing for a couple of days, or just put it away until next season w/o cleaning, and it don't make any difference if blue/molly steel or SS. That barrel be pretty close to junk. I have gotten some treated that way to get back to shooting minute of deer but it ain't easy.

Otherwise I ask which kind of shooting uses lube for every shot, lower velocity, lower heat and usually (not always) a slower rate of fire.

I've been in gun shops where I overheard "advice" so bad I was afraid I'd throw up before I could get out.

10 ga

[searcher4851]

Generally, the jacketed will put wear on a barrel faster than cast lead alloys. Softer alloys will wear the slowest. I would imagine that's why so many suggest breaking in a new barrel with jacketed ammo.

Jacketed bullets are usually pushed by hotter loads. Throat erosion is usually found before extensive barrel wear.

[leeggen]

Gentleman correct me if I am offhanded here. At one time many 243's had the barrels shot out in a short period of time. Now it really wasn't the whole barrel, just the first inch. That said I believe, if memory is correct, the fast burning powders and the speed the jacketed hit the rifling and the jump to get to the rifling, the combination of all this is what "shot out the rifling". Some of the elders on here might correct me if need be.
CD

[JeffinNZ]

Someone on the 6mmBR site calcuated the life of a bench rest barrel is 6 seconds. Tell folks that in the local gun shop and look at their faces.

[felix]

CD, the speed of the projectile hitting the "throat" is next to zero. By itself, the projectile does not even hint to harm that area of a gun. Sand blasting effects of the powder (heat/cutting) does the damage. ... felix

[Outpost75]

More rifles arevworn out by improper cleaning than by shooting!

[Cosmiceyes]

The fastest thing to wear out a barrel is "rust" ! :)'s

[felix]

6 seconds? That might be even too long using 65K (average peaks) in pressure. Making barrels out of nickel with exotics like titanium included might really help, but who is going to keep the machining tolerances required for BR applications using affordable gear to do so? Modern jet/rocket engines have "compression" blades made out of this kind of heat resistant metal and their machining is so high dollar as to make a gun shop a star wars outfit. GE has worked overtime over the last decade in making jet engines use much less heat for their very good power to weight ratings. In contrast, Pratt/Rolls have taken the challenge to finding higher heat metals instead. As a result, recent GE engines are lighter; Pratt engines are tougher. ... felix

[303Guy]

How many shots can be fired in those six seconds? Several thousand I should think?


The fastest thing to wear out a barrel is "rust" ! 'sThe kind of rust that 'wears' out a barrel is a very fine surface rust. It cleans out and gets shot out but each times it happens a little more material is removed but is doesn't form pits. A clean, dry bore is likely to develop a trumpet muzzle with shallower rifling and a 'soft' crown. It doesn't look like its rusted. Mind you, I wonder what effects dust in the muzzle end has on bore wear. I have a 22lr that had a worn muzzle. It shot very poorly with a suppressor, so I checked the muzzle and found I could measure the muzzle taper. I chopped off about an inch and she still shoots deadly accurate, even out beyond 100yds. My old Remington 512 Sport Master - lovely rifle to shoot with. I cannot rule out cleaning rod damage since one cannot clean the bore from the breach end because of the cartridge transfer lever which lifts up high when the bolt is removed.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Lead is gasoline, I was learning last year how to grind valve seats. After hours of reading about how to and watching hours of how to I learned this.

Brit's study on valve seat, found burning gasoline leaded with additive tetraethyl lead, reacted with the metal in the valve and the head to case harden the seat making it harder. Tetraethyl lead main use was octane increase.


Lead was added to gasoline only as an anti-knock additive. This came about by a prolonged campaign by none other than Jimmy Doolittle, who had some experience with the detonation problem in aircraft racing engines. They never thought a bit about it as a lubricant. Adding the lead enabled the US to run high compression engines on 100 and even 115 octane gas during WW2, whereas Germany had standardized on 80 octane gas and couldn't. This actually caused engine mechanics no end of trouble, since the lead would foul spark plugs. How would you like to be told to change all 144 plugs in a B-24 by 04:00 hours tomorrow morning, when you've been working all day on the hydraulics that got shot up over Germany yesterday?

It is true the additive does form a lead film on the exhaust valve contact surfaces, which inhibits erosion of the valves and seats by preventing microwelding when the hot valve is closed. An unintended consequence however was that when high test gas was run in low-compression engines, (e.g. the 1940's Ford 8N farm tractor, which was 6.5:1), the exhaust was not hot enough to keep the lead from building up too thickly on the valves. They would start to leak because they weren't closing properly, and then would burn out. This led to a myth that high test gas "burned too hot" for ordinary engines.

You really wanted to know all that, didn't you ! [smilie=2:

[Lloyd Smale]

Cast bullets wear a barrel out faster. WHY? Because most people who cast shoot 5 times as much ammo in a given period. Im with others that say its rare to actually see a barrel with the rifleing wore out of it. At least since the days of black powder. Just ahead of the chamber of a rifle and the forcing cone of a handgun are whats worn first and that is from powder burning and it doesnt matter if its lead or copper. So if you do shoot your gun more because you can now afford to because of casting its going to wear faster.

[Teddy (punchie)]

All very interesting reading.

As far as firing a gun wear. Fast you push it the faster the wear. Just that simple.

How hot the barrel gets. Hotter the softer the metal becomes.

I have a P-17, chambered 300 IMP/ H&H ( 300 Ackley ) If I take the time to clean her she will shoot 3"-4" groups at 100 yds. (cold fired each shot) after about 12-15 shots of not cleaning she gets to about 1.5 " for the cold first shot. Years ago we looked at the barrel after cleaned and well it is bad, lands look soso but the grooves look like a wavy sea. Most of damage was from old powders and not cleaning. Other damage done by showing off and old owner pushing too fast as to say he had the fastest rifle, he over loaded her.

That being said I still like to shot the old gun and have shot a number of deer and like it trigger and recover time for firing a second shot etc. This year shot 150 yds. running deer, hit too far back, quartering jumping shot. ( liver -stomach- hip). Next shot running in brush, lower lungs and liver. Next side near miss. Next front and high lungs. He still went an other 60 yds. . As we tracked where the deer went if shots landed and what happened, a friend asked me where were you shooting from? I pointed, he said how. I would have watched and said there goes a big maybe huge buck with a nice rack.

Not all hunting guns are range guns. For me it is what can do the job a get it done. Even a bad shot placed gut shot with this load and gun makes a nice 2.5"-3" hole and will take a deer down. Need to add the last couple of years I have not made too many nice shots, most are pushed deer and fast hard shooting. A lot of shots I have to pass on not safe to shot, too many houses, too far to get out, too hard to get out. For us after the first hour or so of our rifle deer season they all know and are on guard so we have to drive the deer. That said, I have to add I've had a many one shot kills but lasts three, well I got them and I was safe about it just not as pretty as I like.