cast loads for 6.5x55 w/ 9"twist

[castshooter-too]

I know lots of data for swedish mausers with the 1 in 7.5 twist
Any interest in asct data for 9 twist barrels?

I own a rem 700 classic and have been messing with Lymans
266469 boolit in hardball or #2 alloy and having great success!

Ny recipe for success is one fired brass of choice
24.5. h4895
140gr. cast bhn 15-16

lit by a fed. 210 primer
seated to ingage rifling
in my rifle=[3.000"]

shoots 2''or>@100yds. w/3x9 leopold installed

Next up is a redfield 6-18 to be swapped off my 22-250








Thanks for your time BRUCE IN NY

[waksupi]

Any idea how fast ya got those puppies movin'?

[castshooter-too]

Waksupi; I figure 1800fps
Lymans showing max at 30grs. But thats for swede rifles.

There is absolutly zero data out there for sporters with 9
twist bbls.:(




Maybe someone has a clue as to where?





thanks for the reply. BRUCE

[waksupi]

I'd sure like to see how fast you can push them. I'm considering rebarreling an action to that twist, and am very interested in velocity potential with cast.

[45 2.1]

Push it up to book max, just don't use new cases.

[castshooter-too]

A little more details are in order as to not confuse potential users,

started out with a 60% reduction for a max load with 140
jacketed bullets and came up with 24gr. H4895
shot ok but was showing signs of lube on the fired cases.
increased .5gr and fired 10 shots and accuracy improved
and the cases came out dry sealing the chamber.


boolits cast with #2 after 24hrs reached .266dia. and were
lubed with javalina and checked thru a .266 dia. sizing die.
seated in neck sized rem. cases to ingage the rifling when
chambered .
A slight crimp was applied with a LEE factory crimp die.
just enough to iron out the taper.

will probably see how far I can take it without leading the
bbl. Am guessing 2100fps with this alloy.

[45 2.1]

A little more details are in order as to not confuse potential users,

started out with a 60% reduction for a max load with 140
jacketed bullets and came up with 24gr. H4895
shot ok but was showing signs of lube on the fired cases.
increased .5gr and fired 10 shots and accuracy improved
and the cases came out dry sealing the chamber.


boolits cast with #2 after 24hrs reached .266dia. and were
lubed with javalina and checked thru a .266 dia. sizing die.
seated in neck sized rem. cases to ingage the rifling when
chambered .
A slight crimp was applied with a LEE factory crimp die.
just enough to iron out the taper.

will probably see how far I can take it without leading the
bbl. Am guessing 2100fps with this alloy.

You can use the jacketed data for the boolit weight for some guidance. You will usually find that the load reaches a point where the accuracy goes south before you hit the max on the data. That point is well above what has been posted on this site.

You should let your boolits cure and stabilize a minimum of one week, two is better before you shoot them. Try to use as large a boolit as will fit in the chamber neck and throat that is alloyed for the pressure use intended.

Do not use cases that the necks are soft/annealed for trying this. 6.5mms a finicky in this regard.

[castshooter-too]

The problem I'm having is not seeing pressure related data with 6.5x55
cal rifles in 9" twist bbls.

Most pressure related data is for 30 cal being the most popular for CBA
comp. Those individuals who use this cal use lino alloy and shoot with
swede rifles with the 7.5 twist. at nothing faster than 1700fps.

I'm more interested in faster velocities for flatter trajectory.

[Ricochet]

Twist has a very minor effect on pressure. In any case, a slower twist would lower pressure. Probably insignificantly.

[castshooter-too]

Well the only way to find out is to increase the charge like was pointed out
and observe groups size and bore condition.
Should prove out very quickly.

Will increase 1gr. at a time for 10 shot trials. will report back with results.










BRUCE IN NY

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce--

I'm looking on with interest here. I have a Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 with this same twist rate, and have limited it to j-words so far. ANYTHING weighing 140 grains shoots well, and 2700 FPS is safely possible. Dunno if I want to "go there" with castings, but I'll at least cheer you on--and might join the race at some point.

[garandsrus]

I have a Swedish CG-63 which is supposed to have 1 in 8.6" (220mm) twist. It shoots cast boolits very well... I size to .268 with a die Buckshot made. I haven't pushed the speed though.

When I get a chance I will cast some new boolits and then heat treat them and see what velocity I can get to while maintaining accurately.

John

[9.3X62AL]

My sole experience with fast-twist barrels is the 25-35 WCF with 1-8" pitch. There is a definite HARD WALL against which accuracy shatters at about 1650 FPS using the NEI 114 grain flatpoint. Below that threshold, things are great.

[castshooter-too]

Velocity on my part will only be a guesstimate.
What I meant by pressure related data was like is printed in the LEE
VOLUME II manual as reguards to alloy limits.

This to me gives me an idea as to where I'm at without instruments
to guide me.

No cronograph or pressure related equipment at my disposal.:(

[Ricochet]

You can buy a basic Chrony for about $75. That's a very useful device for handloaders.

[Nelsdou44]

Bruce-

If this helps, I found a pretty good load for my 9 twist Swede sporter using 22.0 grains of Benchmark pushing a 140g cast boolit. Benchmark is a little faster than H4895. I'm not a normal user of Benchmark; just happen to take some in on trade and decided to experiment with it to get it off my shelf.

Anyway, I fell in love with a 9.3mm and didn't get back to pushing that 9 twist Swede up any higher to see where she could go on Benchmark. Looking forward to see where you get to using H4895.

Nels

[castshooter-too]

Well I'm back from my shooting trials with the 9 twist 6.5x55 and
the results are not good using H4895 and charges over 24.5 grs.


24.5grs gave me the best accuracy at 2" or < at 100yrds.
25.5 grs and over up to 32grs was all over
the map which was leaving lead smears in
the bbl. and also powder fouling was unexceptable.

Changed to IMR 4198 at 22 grs and shot groups that
matched the 24.5grs of H4895 loads.
am going to see how far this will take me up the velocity
ladder.I'm not giving up without trying all suitable powders
available to me; Varget may be next to try. or possibly
IMR4064.

Bullet fit is perfect with full circle engraving.
ask me how I know?






BRUCE

[Buckshot]

.............It had appeared to me a few years back that a shorter slug in the fast twist Swede showed more willingness to be driven fast then the heavier slugs. And by heavier I had the Lyman so called "Hi Velocity" 268645 two diameter designed 152gr slug, and then the ultimate honking big slug in the Oldfeller 172gr cruise missle.

This isn't really anything earth shaking as I haven't gone to any real great lengths to prove my thoughts one way or the other re: shorter, lighter slugs. What happened was that I'd bought several SC, HP lyman moulds from a friend and one of them was (IIRC) the Lyman 266455 (also a HP design) and of Loverin type. Before selling the mould I had cast up a a bit over 100 of'em.

I don't recall the alloy now but they scaled 127grs and had a rather odd double base. By that I mean it had a kind of uncommon looking GC shank, and right above that the same exact feature. Like you could have ordered the mould to produce an even lighter design by shortening the slug from the base. My favorite load in the Swede is 34.0 grs of surplus WC860 or WC872, take your choice. Both produce very good (consistant 1" 5 shot groups at 50 yards). This from a full military Swede Mauser. From a 29" bbl velocities typicly run about 1650 fps with the 152gr boolit.

What I did was to merely load the same load, but I'd used the little 127gr HP to try it out. Danged if it didn't shoot as well and it was going just short of 1800 fps. Trying out the remainder of these little guys in a couple other Swedes I'd gotten up to about 1850 fps. My main interest at the time was pushing ultimate velocity, but to see if they were as accurate from the other rifles at that speed. As it turned out they were.

That prompted the GB of the Lee 6 banger to produce a lighter FN slug of Loverin type at a similar weight.

http://www.fototime.com/8B8B8013CDC151A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B55472729A707A9/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: Left slug is the little Lyman 127gr HP. You can see the base feature I mentioned. Next to it is the Jumptrap Lee custom 2 cav @ 143grs, the Lyman 268645 @ 152grs and then the Oldfeller 172gr. An interesting feature of the Lyman is the narrow and fairly shallow lube grooves. As I recall, it also cast rather fat.

RIGHT PHOTO: On the left is the 6.5 Kurtz version to mimic the 127gr Lyman.

When the order came in Lee had done a fine job in producing the moulds. I cast up 3 batches of them in differing alloys with the idea to test them out and see if alloy hardness was a help or hindrance in velocity/accuracy. They were:

13 bhn, 132grs, .2688"
17 bhn, 129grs, .2692"
21 bhn, 127grs, .2712"

They've been aging for about a year and a half now, and should be pretty ripe :-) I've thinned down my Swede herd to a single M96, M38, M94, and a Ag42B. They've all proven very accurate with either cast or jacketed. The M94 carbine is problematic due to it's short sight radius but it's interesting to use as the short barrel will drop 100 fps off the velocity and ditto the M38's 24" tube vs the M96's 29" bbl.

None of these rifles are happy with a slug over .268", as that is about what the throats mike. Apropo is nothing, but one time I tried the M38 with slugs sized .264". Historicly they'd all been lube-sized .266". At the time the rifle had a 4X scope in a scout mount and 10 rounds of each size over the same load was fired at 100 yards, doing my striving best. I'm danged if those sized .264" didn't outshoot the fatter ones.

My Swede shooting conspiritor buddy said, "You bast****, now I'm going to have to buy a .264" die"! Nothing conclusive was really proven as that was the only time I did it and never followed up, so it might have been a fluke. On the face of it though, the slug that was sized MORE, outshot the other by a visible margin. At least that time.

Anyway, one of these days I need to spend the time to do some work with the 3 Kurtz castings to see what they'll do. To date I know they are just as accurate as any other, and with that Lee 6 banger, you can sure make a mess of'em dang quick!

http://www.fototime.com/FC7FB74B506D8FB/standard.jpg

...............Buckshot

[castshooter-too]

Funny thing happened when I was testing the upper loads is
sometimes I would nail the bull dead center then the next shot
I would see double holes in the target 8-10" from aim.

Believe the borerider was parting company after it left the bbl.
possibly a torque issue there!!


Harder alloy neede I believe; might try my hand at wqww's
next.







BRUCE

[Pat I.]

When I was shooting my 6.5 PPC in cast bullet competition I found H4350 to work pretty well. If I remember right it was 24 grs. Twist was 8 and bullet was 170 grs. Velocity 1750. I think with the 9 twist you might get 1850 or so before accuracy goes south but there's no telling.

[45 2.1]

Starmetal Joe is shooting a 6.5 Grendel (necked down 7.62x39 case) out of an AR-15 conversion with an 8" twist at about 2300 to 2400 fps with great accuracy (about MOA), so yours should do about the same. The 6.5 is the graduates cartridge, if you can make it shoot (above 1850 fps) you can do most anything in the world of cast. If you can't, you need to keep trying.

[waksupi]

Someone run that keyboard over a chronograph!

[45 2.1]

Someone run that keyboard over a chronograph!

It was a chronographed velocity. And yes, it is possible.

[Pat I.]

Someone run that keyboard over a chronograph!

Not to cast doubt on anyone's claims but I think I'd have to actually witness this one too.

[castshooter-too]

45 2.1; Details on what starmetal joe is running for boolits
in his grendel.

Is he using the lyman 266469 boolit?
Is he using linotype and with what
lube?


My trials were with lyman#2 cast and after 24 hrs.
measured .267" and run thru a .266" sizing die with
javelina lube. nose dia. .262"

With 24.5grs. H4895 should achieve 1850fps out
of a 22" bbl.

Acually this is a pretty good load and would not
have a problem stopping here; But I prefer to
try different possibilities like better lubes to start,
to achieve the higher velocities before I spend
moey on a different mold.

Keep the thread going this getting interesting!!!!




BRUCE

[45 2.1]

45 2.1; Details on what starmetal joe is running for boolits
in his grendel.

Is he using the lyman 266469 boolit? No, the Saeco 140
Is he using linotype and with what
lube? Unknown, but probably 50/50 heat treated with his own lube.


My trials were with lyman#2 cast and after 24 hrs.
measured .267" and run thru a .266" sizing die with
javelina lube. nose dia. .262"

With 24.5grs. H4895 should achieve 1850fps out
of a 22" bbl.

Acually this is a pretty good load and would not
have a problem stopping here; But I prefer to
try different possibilities like better lubes to start,
to achieve the higher velocities before I spend
moey on a different mold.

Keep the thread going this getting interesting!!!!



Bruce-
The following is a edited version of several e-mails detailing some of what he did.
Went out to test those 17 and 19 grs of 4198 loads. Velocity with the 7.62 brass was 1864 fps and with the Grendel brass it was about 1900 fps. The 19 gr loads ran about 2300 fps. That 17 gr load went 1 1/2 inchs and the 19 gr load was about the same at 100 yards. Primers are much flatter, still nice rounded corners, especially on the pistol primers. Those small rifle primers get pretty darn flat no matter what the load is, unless it's really mild. When I mention LP and SP that will mean large primer and small primer. Remember for the LP I'm using pistol primers.
18grs 4198 LP 1989fps18grs 4198 SP 2031fps21.5grs 4895 LP 1963fps21.5grs 4895 SP 2073fps21.5grs 844 LP 1941fps21.5grs 844 SP 1942fpsSeems the 844 isn't affected by LP or SP changes very much. Don'tforget too that these are on two different brand cases too.The good news, the 18grs of 4198 SP went into 1 inch at 100 yards. The21.5 grs of 4895 LP did too.Well here you go. Here's my best group from testing today. What I tested is 6.5 Grendel small rifle primer brass and PMC fireformed 7.62x39 large rifle primer brass...all the same load 18 grs of 4198,but the differences this time was first, no fillers in any of them, second some were crimped and some were not. First off the large rifle primers (which I used larger pistol primers) don't shoot quite as good as the 6.5 Grendel brass which is basically PPC brass necked to 6.5 caliber. Anyway there are 4 bullets in that bottom larger hole, which measures 3/8 inch center to center then I had that one out near the top. That brought the group to 5/8 inch total and that's as speed, what was it I told you with that 18 grs of 4198, 2023 fps.

Darn thing squashed everything up. It looks like he is doing MOA at over 2000 fps and 1.5 MOA at 2300 fps. Not to shabby for an AR with cast..........!!!!!!!!!

[Pat I.]

45 2.1; It looks like he is doing MOA at over 2000 fps and 1.5 MOA at 2300 fps. Not to shabby for an AR with cast..........!!!!!!!!![/B]

Really no reason to get excited. Like I said I'm not doubting any one's word but with some claims I'd like to be there to actually witness it that's all.

[castshooter-too]

I've heard good reports on the saeco 140 boolit.
I believe that Dan Hudson? shot a record in comp.
with that same exact boolit with aa1680 powder in
6.5x55 w/9" twist bbl.

Dont quote me on that but it stuck in my mind about the
saeco borerider.I think he also used 50/50 alloy. forgot
the lube he used thou.

[Larry Gibson]

We've discussed this before concerning the 6.5 in particular. It is a matter of RPM. The pressure curve (bases on burning rate of powder), alloy, hardness of the bullet, fit to bore and throat of the bullet and several other things all influence the level of velocity capable with accuracy. However, it is the RPM that truely is the limiting factor with the normal type cast bullets most of us use. The RPM threshold effects ALL cast bullets except those of special design and the occasional exception to the rule. I've had numerous in depth discussions with Starmetal and 45 2.1 regards shooting 6.5s at higher velocity with cast than the RPM threshold. I've dilligently tried to duplicate Starmetals success in the 6.5 Swede and a 6.5x308 with 1-9 twist (PO Ackley .264 Win barrel that was shortened to 24" and short chambered with a 6.5x55 reamer so308 or 7.62 cases could be used. Cases are formed and loaded in standard shortened 6.5x55 dies)which I call a PM6.5x308 (Poor Man's). I've been unable to achieve Starmetals level of accuracy at the velocity he gets from his Grendal/AR regardless of the loading technique, powder, alloy or bullet design.

Over the years I've shot lots of cast bullets in numerous Swede rifles (standard military and sporterized ones with scope sights capable of sub MOA accuracy). I've also shot a considerable number of cast in the PM6.5x308. The most accurate bullet at higher velocity is an older Lyman Lovern 266455 as discussed and shown by 45 2.1 earlier. I've found the shorter Lovern designs, regarless of caliber can most often reach the upper limit of the threshold RPM area and maintain excellent accuracy. That RPM area is between 145-160,000 RPM. Bore riders, regardless of caliber, generally threshold out in the 130-145,000 RPM area.

To answer the question regarding velocity with accuracy of a 6.5 cast bullet in a 1-9 twist; if you cast the right bullet right, and it fits the throat, and the cases are fire formed, and you use a medium to slow burning powder among other things you may hold the bullets best accuracy up into the 1800 fps range. Trying to maintain repeatable accuracy above that velocity and RPM will be frustrating to say the least.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

I've heard good reports on the saeco 140 boolit.
I believe that Dan Hudson? shot a record in comp.
with that same exact boolit with aa1680 powder in
6.5x55 w/9" twist bbl.

Those are military matches so Dan's using a scoped Swedish Mauser. The bullet's the Saeco 140, MTL lube, lino, 15 grs. of 1680, Fed 210, at 1550 fps chronographed.

[castshooter-too]

Thank You Larry ; Well said.














BRUCE

[leftiye]

Catshooter,
That extra hole sounds like your gas check coming off of the boolet!

[45 2.1]

To answer the question regarding velocity with accuracy of a 6.5 cast bullet in a 1-9 twist; if you cast the right bullet right, and it fits the throat, and the cases are fire formed, and you use a medium to slow burning powder among other things you may hold the bullets best accuracy up into the 1800 fps range. Trying to maintain repeatable accuracy above that velocity and RPM will be frustrating to say the least.
Larry Gibson

There is a little more to it than that. Several very experienced shooters have learned that the state of anneal on the case neck plays hob with accuracy unless you know exactly what your doing. In the case of the Swede or any other 6.5, this is extremely paramount and is so in other calibers also. This is something I haven't seen the CBA or anybody else touch upon. Until you get that right, you will not get much of anything above the limit set by some here.

Starmetal Joe only had the 260 Rem on an Arisaka before this 6.5 Grendel, both smaller cases.

[45 2.1]

Really no reason to get excited. Like I said I'm not doubting any one's word but with some claims I'd like to be there to actually witness it that's all.

If it's nothing to get excited about, you do it then. A few others can do it and have written about it here, but got little fanfare. Is it a question of NIH.....?

[felix]

Case neck hardness really does play in the gripping power to a much greater extent than normally expected. If the powder cannot be adjusted to make the boolit release the same way, at the ignition required for the velocity curve, then you can not expect the load to be right on. I annealed some harder cases for my BR gun, and the same load never did come close to the previous lot. For grins, I dry fired the case necks about 6 or 7 cycles, as in sizing them down and then back up repeatedly until I thought (by feel) they felt like the other cases that shot good. The accuracy came back into line. ... felix

[castshooter-too]

Thank you everyone for your input
I've learned alot from this very interesting
thread.

There are many avenues to persue that could
bring improvements to my loading techniques.
So far this caliber keeps it interesting and
challenging enough to keep up the quest for
the best my rifle will do with just average
everyday equipment.

No doubt that my loads are repeatable for the
velocity they produce[guesstimate only].

I can live with what i have done and check
trajectory out to 200 or so yds.

I LOVE THIS HOBBY!




BRUCE

[Pat I.]

If it's nothing to get excited about, you do it then. A few others can do it and have written about it here, but got little fanfare. Is it a question of NIH.....?

Since I don't have a clue what NIH means maybe it is a question of that but I can't say.

I haven't been able to get my 6.5 PPC, pretty close to the Grendel, to shoot anywhere near those kinds of velocities accurately but then again being where I was shooting it in competition next to maybe 5 or 50 other guys I really can't make claims without someone possibly calling on me to prove it. Not saying it can't be done but if it can I sure can't make it happen with a Shilen 8 twist barrel on a bench gun. Guess I'm just not experienced enough.

Pat

[Ricochet]

In context, NIH probably mean Not Invented Here.

[Pat I.]

In context, NIH probably mean Not Invented Here.

Thanks for the translation and sure that's probably what it is.:roll:

[Buckshot]

.............I know that caseneck tension will have an effect on accuracy. Since most serious benchrest shooters spend considerable time and expense in selecting brass as close to perfection as possible, they take efforts to make it last. Since most all cases lost are due to splits in the neck and at the mouth, annealing is the answer, along with minimal sizing.

Cases that have been freshly annealed will expand away from the bullet much sooner in the ignition phase then harder 'springier' brass. At some point in the brasses' life, between dead soft and brittle 'Ready to crack' there will be a place where neck tension is optimal for the load. The space may be 2-3 firings wide.

What I have difficulty in understanding is the level of accuracy increase accredited purely to neck grip on the bullet.

Considering a full on BR rifle, fully prepped brass, a carefully worked up load and match grade jacketed bullets, shots suddenly falling a quarter inch outside established norms would be cause for apoplectic siezure. A BR shooter is going to be using powder, primers, and most probably all the match prepped brass out of the same individual lots.

Since I'm not, nor have I played a benchrest shooter on TV, I can't say how much of an effect hardening brass (as it's a process, and not a sudden change) will ultimately have before it fails. Would it possibly be an inch? Would groups that were normally (say) running in the low 0.200" region grow until they spanned 1" to 1-1/2". I do not know. Does anyone who has persued BR shooting?

At issue is my basic disbelief (and I'm ready to be corrected) that a cast lead load that is correct in all other regards for accurate shooting, will go from a 1" group to maybe an 8" group at higher velocity, and that the accuracy will be brought back by annealing casenecks, still maintaining the new higher velocity?

First of all, we have this:

"Is he using the lyman 266469 boolit?" No, the Saeco 140
"Is he using linotype and with what lube? Unknown, but probably 50/50 heat treated with his own lube.

At this point we know the boolit design, and that it was heat treated but the hardness was unknown. I suppose we could assume that it was correctly done and call it a 32 bhn? We also don't know what 50/50 mix the alloy was? WW/lead, lead/Lino, WW/lino? Isuppose it doesn't matter since it was heat treated. IIRC I was told at one time he used his own "Javalina" or NRA type 50/50 mix.

I have already mentioned my notion of annealing for caseneck tension above. So after establishing the boolit design, alloy and 'possible' lube, we have:

There is a little more to it than that. Several very experienced shooters have learned that the state of anneal on the case neck plays hob with accuracy unless you know exactly what your doing. In the case of the Swede or any other 6.5, this is extremely paramount and is so in other calibers also. This is something I haven't seen the CBA or anybody else touch upon. Until you get that right, you will not get much of anything above the limit set by some here.

Starmetal Joe only had the 260 Rem on an Arisaka before this 6.5 Grendel, both smaller cases.

Taking the last sentance first, there is the possibility that the shorter cases could be accounting for a possible accuracy increase. It's already been shown the short fat cases are more efficient. Hense the proliferation of the various magnums of that type. So to sum up to this point we have:

1) Boolit make, as the Saeco 140gr.
2) Alloy at 50/50 and heat treated, but 50/50 what? Figure 32 bhn regardless.
3) Lube, as his own. Unknown but possibly the NRA formula?
4) A short efficient case.

To finish up with the case, I do not have any load data for the 6.5 Grendal and cast. I wouldn't be so foolish as to try and do a silly mental extrapolation from 7.62x39 data :-). Alexander Arms shows no data for slugs heavier then 120 grs. Accurate arms shows up to 120grs with velocities to 2490 fps at that bullet weight. This from a 24" bbl and a 1-10" twist . Indicated pressures are 52,000 (psi).

To continue, I do not see any indication of annealing in the load data supplied with the target and load data. However, there IS mention of crimping and not crimping. Two different cases were used. I wonder what their firing history was, and also if they were FL sized or neck sized. And if they were annealed, how many times they'd been fired previous to this test?

If neither of the makes of brass had NOT been annealed, and their previous firing history was dissimilar, "In the case of the Swede or any other 6.5, this is extremely paramount and is so in other calibers also". I wonder what we might be able to draw from this admittedly superb accuracy for, 2 different brands of brass, and how caseneck tension was at play here?

.................Buckshot

[45 2.1]

Starmetal Joe was and is a very talented experimenter. His alloy was 50% WW and 50% pure that was heat treated, something that I and others have advocated for a long time. Had anyone tried it, they would have found it heat treats somewhere in the 20 to 21 BHN range. All that has been mentioned is not magic, it is standard stuff for most good experimenters. If you go back thru the posts, you will find that Joe gave up on the 260 Rem with cast. He was given the methodology to get it shooting and he did well with it. What benchresters and the CBA do is a bit different than what he did also. It isn't just one or two things or a trick as some call it. Felix has a good handle on a very large part of this, see his post #14 here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20475
for some more insite.

Rick, assumptions usually get you in trouble. Find someone doing CBA benchrest and find out, in person, the answers to your questions. A lot of things cannot be passed along via the internet, they must be experienced.

[Pat I.]

Putting our differences aside how do you control the anneal to get optimum neck tension? Since work hardening is a gradual process which explains why a neck will split after so many firings and sizing instead of on the first try to my way of thinking achieving optimum grip depending on the state of brass hardness would only last one firing. I'll grant you that neck tension does play a hand in achieving accuracy but unless you're using a bushing die to get it I'm lost.

I also don't understand your elusiveness. I really don't feel like searching through hundreds of posts looking for something when you're right here to answer the questions. I'll tell you what I've found as the way to get higher velocity with accuracy out of any particular cartridge, use a slower twist. Unfortunately some calibers don't give you the option of twists slow enough to get what you might be looking for but in those cases just work with the equipment available and have a good time. Assuming people are stupid or haven't taken the time to find out what a 6.5 caliber will do because they haven't been able to meet your and the other guy's claimed velocity with accuracy is wrong headed. I've played with the 6.5 enough and tried enough different things to believe that the fast twist limits the velocity potential and I don't I'm stupid when it comes to cast bullets.

[45 2.1]

Putting our differences aside how do you control the anneal to get optimum neck tension? I don't anneal. There is a point, with my formed brass, that the neck will show signs of starting to crack. Then it is drawn slightly at that point in a lead pot, it is not annealed as you think. Since work hardening is a gradual process which explains why a neck will split after so many firings and sizing I never said anything about sizing. instead of on the first try to my way of thinking achieving optimum grip depending on the state of brass hardness would only last one firing. No I'll grant you that neck tension does play a hand in achieving accuracy but unless you're using a bushing die I'm not to get it I'm lost.

I also don't understand your elusiveness. The point being is that you do not know what methodology i'm useing, nor do I know yours. If you don't do it or fit it correctly, it will not work..... I could write the process up, but there is the problem of you or someone else substituting what they "know" and the results won't work. I really don't feel like searching through hundreds of posts looking for something when you're right here to answer the questions. I am not, presently, your tutor or mentor. I do not do this as a class. I, sometimes, am contacted by individuals to find out some things they are interested in. These things have been posted several times by myself and others to help. You have better equipment than I, my emphasis is on military rifles as issued and getting them to outshoot most anything else out there. You were offered something, it up to you to decide what you'll do. It will NOT be on open forum though. I'll tell you what I've found as the way to get higher velocity with accuracy out of any particular cartridge, use a slower twist. Thats fine if you want to, but i'm interested in militaries. Unfortunately some calibers don't give you the option of twists slow enough to get what you might be looking for but in those cases just work with the equipment available and have a good time. That is the point. Assuming people are stupid or haven't taken the time to find out what a 6.5 caliber will do because they haven't been able to meet your and the other guy's claimed velocity with accuracy is wrong headed. I object to most saying, there is a physical limit, when the limit is one they have set. Just because they can't do it doesn't mean that is true. Several others have posted the same high velocities with accuracy that I have. They weren't believed as I am not. I've played with the 6.5 enough and tried enough different things to believe that the fast twist limits the velocity potential and I don't I'm stupid when it comes to cast bullets. Then why do jacketed bullets shoot out of it at much higher velocities than what has just been talked about.....??????? Felix has written about tougher alloys, something for you to investigate, isn't it.

[felix]

Pat, it would be difficult to control the amount of softness required on a per case basis from a common brass lot unless each round was shot with the same load continually since the birth of the case. The necks would have to be turned to make sure the amount of brass in the neck was identical between all of the cases. That would be a major hassle for verification unless each entire case was actually 100 percent round from the git-go. If the shaving is not consistent for each neck, the odds are good the cases are not identical enough in terms of thickness throughout. Cases that are not perfectly round from the very first draw will never be round after the last draw. These cases will grow in a banana fashion, causing the neck thickness to be variable within a single case, not to mention the variability throughout the lot. This is why the BR boys go to extremes in selecting their case lot. I personally do not/ never did have the patience for this mickey-mouse. I select "match" cases entirely by the way they print on target, without regard to brand. It is amazing that you can pick up 10 rounds of "new" brass off the ground, and find three that will shoot identically without any support whatsoever other than just neck turning for safeness. Experience over the years suggested a realized total of 0.0008 release tolerance is perfect for a 22 caliber letgo at 3200 fps using 4198 in a 222 ackley, using cases that have been cycled about 10 times or more. A fresh anneal job will double the size of the groups with the same pressure-time curve. ... felix

[Pat I.]

"Felix has written about tougher alloys, something for you to investigate, isn't it."

There you go again with the innuendos. Thanks for the offer but I'm not in the market for a mentor or private tutor at the moment but I'll keep you in mind.

So what I can gather you don't size the brass, can tell when the brass is at the splitting point and then draw it in a lead pot, and use a tougher alloy. Since I use WW either as cast or heat treated from the mould or in the oven maybe the addition of 50 % lead to it is the secret to success.

Maybe you or Felix could explain what you mean by a tougher alloy. The way I understand it is that in a lead/tin/antimony alloy lead gives weight and malleability, antimony gives strength and hardness, and tin gives a little hardness and toughness. What in a HT 50/50 WW pure lead mix adds the toughness? Is it that by reducing the animony content your also reducing brittleness? But at the same time you'd also be reducing strength and toughness along with making the alloy more malleable I'd think.

Just remember I never said I thought you weren't telling the truth about getting a Swedish Mauser to shoot inch and a half groups at 23 or 2400 fps and it's also true that people tend to make their judgements based on their own personal experiences but you have to admit that a lot of people base their claims on one group and don't have a problem with ignoring the rest.

[Bret4207]

45 2.1- Why don't you do up a post outlining the methods you use to get the 6.5 shooting. I know you've put bits and pieces of the formula out before, but if you write it up in one post I'll be glad to make it a sticky. That way some other guys can try your methods and see if it'll work for them. It may relieve some of the questions on the methods you use. I know I'd like it all in one place since I just found a Saeco 140 mould and have a few of the other moulds mentioned and both a Swede and 1/9" barreled Mauser 98.

[45 2.1]

Bret-
This is a Graduate/Phd level thingy. Pretty in depth for anyone who doesn't have a real handle on reforming brass, neck turning, fitted cases, alloying, boolit casting etc. There are several guys here who would understand what I would tell them, but the majority probably would have a very difficult time. This thing only works one way........! You go to school to learn graduate level things, not a coorespondence course. It usually takes several months (with everyone so far) to get someone up to speed on subjects like this, such as boolit fitting, boolit design, shooting long range tight groups. It's a one on one thing in which you have to find out what the guy does and doesn't do and then educate them on the parts they aren't doing to get them on track. It would take up a lot of room.............................................. ..

[Bret4207]

Well, if you feel like writing some of it out sometime my offer to make it a sticky stands.

[felix]

The toughest boolit is one where the elastic and yield limits are the same for any one particular alloy. Actually, these two measurements can never be equal for any alloy I know of, but that is the idea. Lino is tough without doubt, but other alloys have proven even tougher. No, I can't repeat making them, because my hobby is more like: a little dab of this, and a little more dab of that. My objective across the board is to make boolits consistent throughout a batch, which typically are not the hardest or the toughest possible. For example, after all is up and running well, I will cast 50 boolits or so. Then I will weigh each. If 85 percent are not the same in weight, the whole batch gets modified. I also like to make the boolits which are at the margin of twist requirements to be as heavy as possible. That means adding bismuth, which is heavier than lead, and makes the boolits even harder than antimony would. Because bismuth is expensive, this stuff (from european match pellets, waterfoul shot) is only used in my 14 twist 22 BR gun. Tin must be added to bring up the toughness, and this is usually the situation for all alloys. Tin is usually only added to make a mold cast good for all other boolits I make. ... felix

How do you know a boolit is tough? Size one down from 2 to 3 thousands oversize, and watch the diameter grow back up right before your eyes. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Well, not that I have to defend anyone here, but last year we built a 6.5-06 for long range comp with an 8 twist, 26" Shilen. I had a week to play with it before the customer showed up. I borrowed a 105 grain, 280468 Loverin for a 270. I lubed and then sized it down to .265 in one fell swoop.

I used RL15 and walked this gun up to 2600 fps area with ACWW before it crapped. I seem to remember like 44-45 grains. Loads held .... let's just say below an inch at that level. That's no filler or pistol pistol primers, annealing or turned necks, or any other tricks. It was so easy, it was surprising. That was supposed to be 30,000 psi. Computer said RL19 was going to be the best powder for this purpose, but I didn't have any or any 4831 on hand to try it at that time. I was too lazy to remove the lube, heat treat them , and then lube them again by hand, or I will bet I could have gotten even more. So if I could have gotten to 35,000 psi with 57 grains of RL19, I could have hit 3000 fps. Time was just too short. A 90 grain bullet would be EVEN better for this, but try and find one of those!

Now this ain't a 7 twist and it ain't a 6.5X55, but it's .... close enough for me. It showed me that a light for caliber, one diameter bullet in a throat cut to handle it is key to HV performance in any caliber regardless of twist rate. Pressure on the base from the increased inertia of added bullet weight, throat filling diameter if way over bore, and twist rate lowers velocity potential from that point on. Apparently dramatically as the military guys report. But it ain't the RPMs baby.

[Larry Gibson]

Have to disagree with you Bass Ackward. With the regular cast bullets most of us are shooting out of regular rifles it is the RPM. I have proved it over and over with the same cartridge, the same loads but in different twist rifles. Easy to do these days with .223 and .308 winchester rifles as they come in various twists. I do concur that one diameter, light for caliber bullets (the lighter weight Loverns or the custom moulds) hold the most promiss for holding accuracy at higher velocity (RPM). However I've run enough cast bullets of various types over chronographs since the mid '70s to really doubt that even the cusom 6.5 rifle you used will do that consistantly. I have had a very accurate 6.5-06 for some years and have tried numerous cast bullets in it over the years. With it's 1-9" twist I can push the light for caliber, lovern design bullets at about 2000 fps (160,000 RPM) and hold consitant 1-1.5 MOA. Above that velocity/RPM and accuracy goes south. With heavier bore riding cast bullet designs accuracy goes south just over 1800 fps (144,000 RPM). To clarify "goes south" I mean that groups begin to get larger or accuracy deteriorates. Loads above those velocity/RPM figures generally stayed in 3-5 MOA. I accept that kind of accuracy out of some rifles but for the rifles we're discussing I do not.

I believe it was your light for caliber, one diameter 154 gr LBT bullet I tried in the '06 with RL19 per your detailed instructions. The claim was MOA or so with these bullets out of a 10" twist barrel at 2600 fps or so (correct me if I'm too far off here). I shot them with RL19 and H4831SC using several different primers as you suggested. five shot groups ran 1-1.5" at 100 yards at 17-1900 fps. That is 136,800 RPM at 1900 fps. Groups above that RPM quickly jumped into the 3-5 " range. Got to admit in the 24-2500 fps range I got a couple 2-2.5" five shot groups but when I loaded more of those they also ran 4-5". Goes to show sometimes we get lucky and one group does make an accurate load. At 2660 fps (191,520 RPM) the group was 5.25" with 57 gr RL19. The group went to 14" (yes that IS 14") with 58 gr RL19 and the velocity was 2724 fps. Now One can achieve 3000 fps with a 150 gr bullet in an '06 so I probably could have pushed one there. but what for? A 14" group means nothing to me regardless of the velocity.

I also consider myself to be somewhat skilled at reloading. I have in the past bothered to learn to do the more esoteric aspects of reloading and can accomplish them successfully. After some conversations with 45 2.1 and Starmetal regarding the 6.5s I dillagently followed thier advice as to correct cases, powders, alloys etce, etc, etc and yet failed to achieve the described accuracy at said velocities. My conclusion was once again; it's the RPM baby.

Also I've got three very accurate .308 rifles; a M788 with 10" twist, a M70 target with 12" twist and a M98 with a S&L Palma 14" twist barrel. The M788 is a MOA rifle and the other two are sub MOA capable. With numerous different cast bullets I have consistantly shown that the slower twist barrel (translates into less RPM at any velocity) consistantly holds accuracy at a higher velocity. Note that with your 154 LBT bullets the 14" twist barrel held five shots consistantly into 1.5" or less up through 2500 fps. Something I've not attained with the 12" twist and not even close with the 10" barrel either. I will note here that there is also a progressive increase in accuracy with M80 ball ammo in the slower twists. That is the reason for the slow twist Palma barrels; to decrease the RPM and thus decrease it's adverse effect on the stability of the bullet. Heck, delinked M80 shoots into 1-2 MOA out of the 14" twist. I've some LC87 that puts 10 shots into MOA with regularity! I've also a .308 CBC that is quite accurate with a 2 groove '03A3 barrel. Even with the smaller more efficient case I can't keep accuracy at any higher velocity (RPM) than with the 10" twist .308 or '06 given identical cast bullets. I have run this same test with accurate .223s; with 7, 8, 9, 12 and 14 " barrels with the same results; the higher the velocity/RPM the sooner accuracy goes south with the faster twist barrels.

Many times we've seen the question; "How come when I load a 120 gr cast bullet to factory pressure in the 30 Carbine it shoots fine and when I load the same bullet in my '06 to the same pressure it won't group at all?" I believe the question is even in the NRA's cast bullet supplements. There are many hypothesis proposed as to why but the simple fast is the M1 Carbine is most often found with a 16" twist barrel. At 1900 fps it genrates only 85,500 RPM. The '06 on the other hand with it's 10 twist generates 136,800 RPM at the same 1900 fps. "At pressure" (assuming they mean to equal the M1 Carbines pressure) they are probably doing they are doing 2700 fps and generating 194,400 RPM. That is the difference and that's why it is the RPMs, baby.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Bret-This is a Graduate/Phd level thingy. Pretty in depth for anyone who doesn't have a real handle on reforming brass, neck turning, fitted cases, alloying, boolit casting etc. There are several guys here who would understand what I would tell them, but the majority probably would have a very difficult time. This thing only works one way........! You go to school to learn graduate level things, not a coorespondence course.

45, Oh Well, left guessing again.... Doesn't it seem that that is the object? I guess it's the old saw about pearls before swine? Don't worry about whether or not we could understand your lofty concepts, it's apparent that well never get the chance.

I for one have been on this thread and others somewhat put off with the lack of information you privide while talking at length without saying much. I'm certainly glad you've arrived! Wherever that may be. I most certainly wouldn't want to ask you for anything. And won't. Perhaps you could on the other hand stop wasting my/our time? Signed Porky

[floodgate]

45 2.1:

"This is a Graduate/Phd level thingy..."

WHOA!! I went to graduate school, in physics, and went all the way, but all I REALLY learned was HOW to learn... which is exactly what we all strive to do here.

Go ahead and write it up; if it is too much for a "sticky" wiljen can post it on CASTPICS, or you can submit it to "The Fouling Shot"; they are always looking for material like this.

floodgate

[45 2.1]

45 2.1:

"This is a Graduate/Phd level thingy..."

WHOA!! I went to graduate school, in physics, and went all the way, but all I REALLY learned was HOW to learn... which is exactly what we all strive to do here.

Go ahead and write it up; if it is too much for a "sticky" wiljen can post it on CASTPICS, or you can submit it to "The Fouling Shot"; they are always looking for material like this.

floodgate

I probably will. The main problem is the Swede rifle is the problem. The commercial rifles with tighter chamber necks don't have the clearence problem to overcome. Thanks Doug.

[castshooter-too]

Time to chime back in here;
If the facts come out and were put into writing
I for one would not beat this topic to death
and the wordwars would stop.
I,ve seen numberous post on this topic but
it's spread out over the years where retrieving
it would take a lifetime .

This is supposed to be a site where info can
be exchanged or to put it mildly[= experience].

Just had to vent,Thankyou.




BRUCE

[waksupi]

Ol' Joe sure knew how to tell us all about how to do everything, but seems to have wanted to keep all his Swede secrets, secret. I believe he is full of bull, and no amount of carrying water will change my opinion.

[45 2.1]

Larry-
You just had Bass relate going over your RPM limit. Several folks have done the same with the fast twist 223s with heavy boolits with accuracy and speed. Over 200,000 RPMs. Just how do you explain away their success? My own 6.5 Swede loads do 177,600 RPM and I have no complaints about accuracy with them.

[45 2.1]

Ol' Joe sure knew how to tell us all about how to do everything, but seems to have wanted to keep all his Swede secrets, secret. I believe he is full of bull, and no amount of carrying water will change my opinion.


Joe didn't own a Swede then and still doesn't. He did all his work with a 260 Rem on an Arisaka action. Its in the back posts for anyone to check out.

[45nut]

This is supposed to be a site where info can
be exchanged or to put it mildly[= experience].


That is why we are here, I ask also that the bottom line be adhered to. We exist not to piss off fellow cast boolit enthusiasts, but to encourage them.

[Pat I.]

Larry-
My own 6.5 Swede loads do 177,600 RPM and I have no complaints about accuracy with them.

I could be wrong here but wouldn't that translate into about 1850 fps with the Swede's twist? I get pretty fair accuracy at 1750 with a 170 gr bullet in an eight twist so wouldn't be too surprised if someone could get around 1850 with a lighter bullet accepting the loss in accuracy but 1850s a far cry from what you gave the impression you were getting.

Now what I really want to see is someone shoot air cooled 12 bnh bullets in a 8 twist 6.5 at 2600 fps.

[Pat I.]

How do you know a boolit is tough? Size one down from 2 to 3 thousands oversize, and watch the diameter grow back up right before your eyes. ... felix

Felix, Not to be argumentive but take lots of WW as cast, drop quenched, and oven treated and you'll see quite a bit of difference in after sized diameter so I don't think your example is a good one for finding the toughness of bullets. Hardness yes but toughness maybe not. We can measure hardness with equipment that's available but having a way to find out how tough a given alloy is might be a little harder, no pun intended.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

I believe I use the word "threshold" these days, not "limit", and give it a fairly large margin of RPM. I also believe that the slower the twist the higher the threshold. As a bullet rotates from the spin of the twist of the barrel it has two centers that run lengthwise through the bullet. One is the "center of form" and the other is the "center of gravity. The two centers will coincide in a perfect bullet. However our cast bullets are not as perfect as we'd like them to be. Also imperfections and imbalances occur during obturation in the throat and during accelleration. As long as the bullet stays in the barrel it spins around it's center of form. However, after exiting from the barrel the bullet will spin around it's center of gravity. The center of gravity more often than not does not coincide with the center of form. The closer the centers are to each other the more stable and accurate the bullet will be. The imbalance between the centers causes pitch, wobble and a gyrating effect. The farther the center of gravity is from the center of form the greater the effect on accuracy will be. The faster we push the bullet the higher the RPM are more the more this imbalance between the centers is accentuated. The net result is that at a certain threshold the centrifugal force caused by higher RPM will greatly enlarge groups. By greatly enlarge groups I mean going from 1-1.5" groups to 3-5" groups. What we're talking here is increase RPM above that threshold and accuracy suffers, reduce RPM to or below the threshold and accuracy returns.

Yes Bass does claim to shoot his LBT bullet at 2600 fps or so out of his 10" twist '06 with MOA accuracy. AS you'll note from my post I tried like hell to do that following his directionc but was unable to. I did come close with my 14" twist Palma .308 but that was at around 133,000 RPM, well with the threshold I talk about.

I also sneak the older Lovern 266455 up to around 1850 fps which is around 177,000 RPM or so in the Swede and maintain good accuracy. However with other bullets I've not been able to. I do not believe 1850 fps is "at speed" for the Swede though. Maybe with cast bullets but if you're talking 2600 fps then I'd really like to see that!

Larry Gibson

[Buckshot]

...............Well, all I have to work with is a few Swedes, and being all military they share the same twist, but different barrel lengths and very minor bore/groove differences. Finally none of them wear a scope. I just have to use the ole Mk1 Mod1 eyeball detector. I'm really not up to building a special rifle just to shoot 6.5mm cast boolits fast, so if a Swede military Mauser won't do it, I suppose I'm out of luck.

Something else to be aware of in shooting cast, or jacketed bullets fast is that twist DOES have a direct bearing on dispersion in unbalanced projectiles. In the barrel the bullet must rotate within the barrels confines. Once free it will begin to rotate about it's center of gravity. The faster the projectile is spun the greater effect any imbalance will have.

I'm sure there are several sources online to check. One is by Dan Lilja at: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/bullet_imbalance_twist.htm

.................Buckshot

[felix]

Pat, let the boolits sit for a month after quenching. That is when you do the sizing check. I typically don't size until at least a year after quenching. ... felix

[felix]

Smaller the diameter of the boolit, the less dynamic inertia you got to destroy the boolit. Therefore, the 22's should outrun the 6.5's using the same twist. ... felix

[45 2.1]

45 2.1
I believe I use the word "threshold" these days, not "limit", and give it a fairly large margin of RPM. I also believe that the slower the twist the higher the threshold. As a bullet rotates from the spin of the twist of the barrel it has two centers that run lengthwise through the bullet. One is the "center of form" and the other is the "center of gravity. The two centers will coincide in a perfect bullet. This is not an artillery lesson. What your talking about happens mostly with the BPCR crowd. Their boolits "go to sleep" over a 200 yd+ range. Most of the common ones we deal with follow a "cone of fire" dispersion. However our cast bullets are not as perfect as we'd like them to be. True, they're basically undersize for what we're doing. Also imperfections and imbalances occur during obturation in the throat and during accelleration. Accented by being undersize allowing tipping while engraving. As long as the bullet stays in the barrel it spins around it's center of form. However deformed that is. However, after exiting from the barrel the bullet will spin around it's center of gravity. If it actually has one that can be defined. The center of gravity more often than not does not coincide with the center of form. The closer the centers are to each other the more stable and accurate the bullet will be. The imbalance between the centers causes pitch, wobble and a gyrating effect. The farther the center of gravity is from the center of form the greater the effect on accuracy will be. The faster we push the bullet the higher the RPM are more the more this imbalance between the centers is accentuated. The net result is that at a certain threshold the centrifugal force caused by higher RPM will greatly enlarge groups. Yep, this actually happens because of useing undersize boolits. By greatly enlarge groups I mean going from 1-1.5" groups to 3-5" groups. flyers What we're talking here is increase RPM above that threshold and accuracy suffers, reduce RPM to or below the threshold and accuracy returns. Due to imballanced boolits because they didn't start down the bore straight...!

Yes Bass does claim to shoot his LBT bullet at 2600 fps or so out of his 10" twist '06 with MOA accuracy. AS you'll note from my post I tried like hell to do that following his directionc but was unable to. You note that he used a 270 boolit that had a bigger nose...??? He sized to 0.265", the nose wasn't unsized. The chamber didn't have a large neck either to allow imbalance to start. Getting the picture...???? Start them straight down the bore and you can do just about anything.......................................... .............I did come close with my 14" twist Palma .308 but that was at around 133,000 RPM, well with the threshold I talk about.

I also sneak the older Lovern 266455 up to around 1850 fps which is around 177,000 RPM or so in the Swede and maintain good accuracy. That one actually almost fits your rifle. However with other bullets I've not been able to. I do not believe 1850 fps is "at speed" for the Swede though. Maybe with cast bullets but if you're talking 2600 fps then I'd really like to see that!
Lets get a boolit weight that allows that and with a fitted boolit (thats something you have yet to get) it can happen.

The main problem with lead boolit accuracy is that a boolit that is too small will allow the boolit to cock causing it to go down the bore out of line...!!! That folks is the cause of inaccuracy.

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,

Plain and simple. If it was RPMs, it would be RPMS for bullet weight in a particular caliber across the board. Let's use that 30 caliber since I have more experience here. Lets stay with the same 14 BHN bullets in an 06.

I can take LLA and hit the RPM barrier at about 1900 fps. I can take NRA ALox and hit the RPM barrier at around 2200 fps. I can take LBT Blue or Lithie Bee and hit the RPM barrier at 2400 fps. If I combine one of those two lubes with the LLA I can get to 2600 fps. BUT, I can only do that above 80 degrees with a cool barrel. As the temperature drops, my RPM barrier drops. Or, even under ideal conditions above 80, if I fire in fairly short order heating the barrel, my barrier drops. Accuracy goes to almost 2". So practical limit in a 30 is more like 2400 fps actually so you have a wider accuracy range for conditions window.

Try another supporting train of thought. I can take that same 150 grain and use 2400 and use the same LBT / LLA combination and crap it at about 2000 fps. I can take 4895 and crap it about 2200 fps. Is that RPMS? No secret to my success. Just think about reducing pressure on the base in all forms and the RPM barrier GOES UP if you have the barrel length to burn stuff. The RPM parralell? As pressure and velocity goes up so does RPMs. The negative to the RPM theory? Acceptance hinders progress.

Twist rate is an obstacle and a formidable one. And that is why bullet weight is so very critical because the pressure on the base increases drastically. But you can have a two groove 14 twist and experience the same thing. Wide lands or increased bullet diameter all limit top end potential because they require more sizing from the bullet which delays forward progress. Same with too much rifling height if it is over done, but tall rifling give you a wider, accurate operating range because it allows some hydraulic sizing from lube left (fouling) in the barrel before stripping occurs. When the temperature drops, the lube in the bore is stiffening enough to offer increased resistance or even begin the hydraulic sizing process. Some call this a flier. This is why I am not a lube seling theorist either. Increased lube or lube viscosity from temperature RUINS my bullets and their seal.

When you accept this train of thought your RPM barrier will increase. So will the accuracy of your lower velocity loads because you will truly understand lube, the enemy. Now is it very practical to jump through hoops? Not really unless you want the education. On the fringe, whether that is 1900 fps with LLA or 2400fps with LBT Blue everything has more impact and you may have to drop to say 7828 because of your bore / lube / hardness combo. The problem there is that you may need a longer barrel length to burn it or you still won't get the velocity.

The accuracy will be what ever it is, not every gun is capable of the same levels for what we discussed and this may raise or lower that threshold for acceptance. But do all jacketed weights perform the same, accuracy wise, if you can't reach harmonic nodes for that barrel? For Dan's contest I had a 311440 hollow point that weighed about 136 grains. I got that to 2,850 but never the accuracy because of the wide nose I guess or I could have been off the harmonic node too. Groups ran 1 1/4 to say 2" on the top end. But some here would still call that good enough. Run those RPMS.

That's my secret. :grin:

[45 2.1]

I could be wrong here but wouldn't that translate into about 1850 fps with the Swede's twist? Yes, you did figure that correctly. I get pretty fair accuracy at 1750 with a 170 gr bullet in an eight twist so wouldn't be too surprised if someone could get around 1850 with a lighter bullet accepting the loss in accuracy I shoot a 143 gr. boolit, without your loss in accuracy, at that 1850 fps. I shoot that by choice because it does what I want it to do (with extremely good accuracy), not because I can't make it go faster with very good accuracy also. Go look at the Lyman #45 manual for the 6.5x55 and see the velocities Lyman got for the 266469. You really think that they would publish something that wouldn't work for one of their products? but 1850s a far cry from what you gave the impression you were getting. I didn't say I used the higher velocity loads. I did say that it is quite possible to get high velocity and accuracy to go with it. I've done it extensively and don't care for it myself. Assumeing things usually gets you in trouble.

Now what I really want to see is someone shoot air cooled 12 bnh bullets in a 8 twist 6.5 at 2600 fps. Bass would probably make you a rifle and show you how. There is no substitute for knowledge with understanding.

[Pat I.]

You change the secret to your success so fast I can't keep up. First it's state of anneal, then it's alloy, now it's bullet diameter and fit. I'm looking forward to your lesson in public so I can at least see everything at once. I know you'll say it's not one thing but the rest of us dummies wouldn't understand. I also knew that your velocity at that rpm was around 1850 but wanted to give you the opportunity to confirm it to show how smart you are. Do yourself a favor and take Lyman's book with a grain of salt, it wouldn't be the first time a company embellished their product a bit to make it look good. Get up early and watch infommercials some time. You're also really missing the boat by not listening to Larry about bullet balance. Jacketed BR shooters use custom bullets and achieve the accuracy they get because the custom bullet makers use J4 jackets. Something you should look in to.

Just so you know though there's nothing related to cast bullets that could be considered graduate or PHD level. You're hard to pin down but using a pot of melted lead to draw or anneal cases is old news. Forming cases for the Swede out of something else is nothing new and when I bought my first one it was what had to be done because it was impossible to find 6.5 brass. Turning necks for a zero or 1 or 2 thousandths clearance is common practice in both jacketed and cast BR along with a lot of guys who might use a different case to form their cases either because they can't get it or because they want thicker necks to fill the chamber. Casting bullets is casting bullets and if there's some special technique I don't know about I'm all ears. A mix of 50% WW and 50% lead doesn't sound like graduate level alloying to me and heat treating is a pretty simple concept and job. Using unsized brass is nothing new and there's plenty of guys who do it, me included in my 03. Fitting a bullet to the throat is common knowledge nowadays.

I don't need anyone to make a rifle since I fit my own barrels and have made my own moulds. As a matter of fact I cut the one I use in my 6.5 but since a guy with a PHD in cast bullets probably knows a lot more about it than I do maybe you'll tell me everything I did wrong.

" There is no substitute for knowledge with understanding"

What there's no substitute for is a key board and no witnesses.

Felix, I cast bullets in the morning and heat treat as soon as they're cool enough to handle. An hour after cooking at 440 degrees in a toaster oven and quench they're 20 bnh and come out of a .309 sizer at .3094. After letting them sit overnight they're 35 bnh and come out of the sizer at .3098. I'm shooting a 155 LBT in a 30x47 with 40 grs of N135 in a 17 twist Shilen barrel and can shoot them at 2650 fps the same day I size them if I let them harden up to 35 over night.

[felix]

Pat, you are doing good. I would say you are at the PhD level now by what you presenting. Hanging around here should drive that confidence home. It's time for you to begin offering your expertise, like things you have done to improve your particulars and/or generalities. ... felix

[felix]

In general you can say it takes more RPM to destroy a tough boolit than a boolit which is merely just hard to the touch. When you really get down to it, it all depends on how you make the boolit hard, rather than how hard the boolit is on the extremities. Mashing a boolit on the rump beyond its support level (toughness) will destroy its RPM capability. How the pressure-time curve is initiated is of the utmost importance. That is why a certain load that shoots all year long is a magic one. BA is right on. However, the next year things might not be so rosey. Why? The throat dimensions changed! ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

I honestly believe you could present a logical argument that the world is flat. I don't know whether you are serious or just pulling our leg. None the less, it is not an "artillery lesson" but a simple lesson in ballistics which applies to our cast bullets as they are projectiles in flight also and the same laws of physics applie to them. If you have trouble grasping the concept try the Hornady third and fourth edition manuals. They explain it quite well and have pictures. You will also find the same explanation in numerous books that explain ballistics. BPCR bullets do not "stand alone" when it comes to physics.

Larry Gibson

[castshooter-too]

Wow! My Simple Question Turned Into A Pissing Contest!








Bruce

[Larry Gibson]

Bass Ackward

Not sure about your lube's effect as the 154 LBT bullets you sent me were lubed by you and had your "magic" touch on them. Still, I could not replicate your accuracy results in a 10" twist at 25-2600 fps. I did replicate it in a 14" twist at an RPM that was in the threshold.

Interesting to note that bullets lubed with plain old Javelina perform just as well in the 25-2600 fps range as with "magic" lubes in the 14" twist but not so in the faster twists. May be something to your explanation of "hydraulic sizing from the lube". Javelina seems to work quite well up through 2200 fps in the faster twists.

Everyone here knows that the faster the powder you use the sooner (at a lower fps because the pressure is higher) harmfull obturation will occur. This creates imbalances in the bullet and the center of gravity will not coincide with the center of form. So logically the sooner this harmful obturation occurs the sooner RPM will effect the bullets flight and the sooner the accuracy goes south. The fact is the RPM are what accentuate the defects one they are created by the too fast accelleration and inaccuracy occurs. I believe your point reinforces the RPM threshold theory. Should you recognise the detrimental effects that RPM have on a bullets imbalances at certain speeds and you will understand.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=castshooter-too;229963]Wow! My Simple Question Turned Into A Pissing Contest!

Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here.

Larry Gibson

[castshooter-too]

Understood












BRUCE:neutral:

[45 2.1]

I don't need anyone to make a rifle since I fit my own barrels and have made my own moulds. As a matter of fact I cut the one I use in my 6.5 but since a guy with a PHD in cast bullets probably knows a lot more about it than I do maybe you'll tell me everything I did wrong.

Since you already knew all, why don't YOU tell all of us what you did wrong and stop asking questions you purport to know the answers to.

[45 2.1]

[quote=castshooter-too;229963]Wow! My Simple Question Turned Into A Pissing Contest!

Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here.

Larry Gibson

A good synopsis on the pissing contest explanation, but I don't agree at all with your RPM theory, to many contradictions out in the real world!

[Bret4207]

Lets try and keep this at the "heated discussion" level and not let it deteriorate to the mud slinging level.

[45 2.1]

However, the next year things might not be so rosey. Why? The throat dimensions changed! ... felix

And what effect does that have if your boolit is oversize to the throat? Several writeups of foreign military rifles used to gauge throat erosion have stated the throat moves forward and checks roughening the surface and deepens the grooves slightly while basically just polishes the bore on top of the lands after 8,000 ball rounds. I've looked at several throat washed barrels thru a bore scope also and have shot very old rolling blocks with just a wavy looking barrel (almost no lands). If the throat still hand some rifling, these rifles shot pretty well for their condition. With the boolit fitted in three positions as we discussed before, what effect do foresee when the throat does change?

[9.3X62AL]

I'm looking on and learning MUCH.

The exchanges have become a little tense in small spots, but still are generating far more light than heat. Threads such as this demonstrate that while I know (or, more properly 'believe') SOME things about poured projectiles, there is lots more road for me to travel. Shooters, hunters, and outdoor sportsfolk are generally pretty opinionated, Type-A personalities. In such groups with such folks, debate and disagreement are inevitable. As long as discourse remains civil--and the heat vs. light equation stays tilted in favor of the latter element--let it flow.

We have all levels of cast boolit hobbyists in-house here, from neophyte to Ph.D. One of the founding principles of Cast Boolits involved the "re-discovery" of knowledge and technology that got lost when mass-marketed reloading components became available after WWII. "Secrets" have their place, but this isn't Cold War Bulgaria, it's a hobby forum--so dead-drops of microfilm aren't required. If someone feels that a "discovery" of theirs rises to the level of "proprietary knowledge" or "intellectual property", they are certainly within their rights to be coy about the information and might be best served by seeking patent protection. For my own part, operating at my "high school diploma" level of knowledge and belief concerning cast boolits--call me a "Socialistic Hippocratic"--to each according to need, from each according to ability, and strive to do no harm in the process.

[Pat I.]

Lets try and keep this at the "heated discussion" level and not let it deteriorate to the mud slinging level.

I apologize if I let my temper do my speaking for me at times but I have the bad habit of losing good sense when I'm talked at instead of to. Next time I'll take a cold shower before I reply to anything.

[Uncle R.]

These kinds of discussions are one of the best features of this board. It's intellectually stimulating. I learn a thing or two from every one of these "arguments" and it's encouraging to see that intelligent people can still disagree without resorting to childish name calling and insults.
A few years back I frequented a different board with a different theme. I got into a "discussion" <G> about politics with one of the main members there and although I was always careful to be respectful and avoid insults it started to get a mite heated on the other side. :roll: I finally wrote in answer to another member "I don't know "John' but I strongly suspect that he's a good man. I'd guess that he'd make a very good neighbor and the best kind of friend. I don't disllke him - I just disagree with him. "John" answered that thread with an "Aw Shucks" and after that we could and did disagree on almost everything without animosity.
In any argument, when one side resorts to insults I always figure they've LOST. "If that's all you have, you obviously don't have any FACTS to back up your position." I'm happy to see the mature level of discussion on this board. It's just another indication that boolit casters are an extraordinary bunch.
:-D

[felix]

Bob, you have to change something to keep the pressure-time curve the same. Seating the boolit out further works in most instances, but chances are good a shape change works better. The real point is, something has to change to maintain the same accuracy over time. ... felix

[felix]

It appears to me that no one is stating wrong info. Sorta' like cluster analysis, which means the process of eventually detecting which elements are mutually exclusive so as to make a following regression analysis speak the truth. ... felix

[Pat I.]

This might not need mentioning but since rpm has been talked about so much with no explanation how to find it it's velocity times 720 divided by twist.

[Bass Ackward]

All,

I don't consider someone responding again as arguing in an attempt to convey a message. I am not a professional writer as gets pointed out again and again. So I worry my message isn't getting through.

I think what Bob meant to say is that this is the .... most complex issue this board addresses only because "you" have to be able to see the big picture and put all those "Threads" together. Everything from bore type and condition to working barrel length, to throat size, twist rate to smoothness to cast bullet design, to hardness, lube, to pressure and this list goes on and on until some guys start to call steps .... tricks.

These .... tricks are techniques pure and simple designed to reduce pressure or maintain alignment. Miss one step or have to compromise on a gun dimension and your RPM ceiling comes down. I was just stupid enough to continue trials 90% of casters have no interest in exploring and another 5% would say is just plain stupid cause we have jacketed for that anyway. And .... that's OK too.

Bob,

I have read the same articles about accuracy improving in the military calibers right on up to 12,000 rounds. That's jacketed ball. Dan's 30-06 went from choking .312 to .318 in about 1000 rounds.

Felix,

Good point on my throat. That explains why it is getting finickier all the time. Been awhile since I slugged.


Larry,

LLA can fail for someone at 1000 fps or work up to 2400 fps. LBT Blue and LLA fails for me just above 2600 fps under those conditions. Evidently yours are different. The whole point is for everyone to have the knowledge base and understand .... why? How to maximise what you have even if that IS only 1800 fps. But first we have to agree on an accuracy standard that everyone can reach. If someone can't reach 1" at any velocity, is the problem RPMs? Cause if you raise that to 2", I got more lies to tell ya. :grin:

Bottom line: To accept a hardness formula or an RPM theory or a sizing standard or anything else is fine per individual decision. But presching it results in dumbing down of the audience. From the 45 caliber guy that says peek accuracy occurs at 1100-1300 fps to the 22 caliber guy that is pushing higher RPMs and finds 2000 - 2200 fps as the ceiling. If I am to accept cast limits or generalizations, I need someone to define both the mean and when the variables to the cast equation are no longer responsible because the RPM factor takes over. Barring that clarification, I can't buy it. And the 45 guy won't agree on the RPM ceiling with the 22 guy .... ever.

I will grant you that considering all the generalities or old wives tales that we dispel, RPMs requires .... the most of everything to conquer.

[Pat I.]

Something to realize it that it takes a hell of a lot of velocity to make up for bullet weight. Using the actual BC of my 250 gr 30 cal bullet at 1750 fps against the estimated BC of the 155at 2650 I found the drift at 200 yds to be so close it was spooky. Granted drop was twice as much with the heavier bullet but unless you're shooting at some pretty far ranges I don't see that being a problem, and it wouldn't really be a problem at long ranges as long as you had the scope or sight adjustment available to handle it. For hunting purposes I don't think there's an animal that would be any deader if hit well with either load.

[HORNET]

It's always interesting how heated the discussions get anytime the topic of high-speed 6.5's comes up. Any newcomers whos eyes haven't glazed may want to do a search for older discussions under "KARLINA"...Lots of good info but they get technical quick and sometimes stray towards a PG-17 rating.

[waksupi]

I believe what got my dander up, is the tread started out on the 6.5 X 55 Swede, that we have played with so much. I do believe the object was to increase the speed in the issue barrel.

[45 2.1]

Ah yes, the issue barrel. The one with deep rifling that has a fast twist. The one that has a big throat in most barrels I have measured. The one that is set up for military brass with thick necks that has a chamber neck too big for commercial brass. That one........................! Most of what you've done to try to get it to shoot was correct up to a point, but it was not enough. More about this subject tomorrow.

[Larry Gibson]

Bass Ackward

I wasn't using LLA for this application. As mentioned I use Javelina (two times into the lubrasizer to ensure a good solid fill). Now LLA is supposed to be pretty much the same formula as Javelina but 've not had the same results with it.


As to agreeing on an accuracy standard the rifle pretty much sets that with each bullet and powder combination. Let's take a simple example in a 10" twist heavy barrel accurate 308. Using 311291 we start out with 25 gr of 4895 and wok up in 1 gr increments to 35 gr. At 25,26 an 27 grs we get 2.5" vertical groups and the chronograph shows a large ES for each charge. As we shoot the 28, 29 and 30 gr loads we find the groups are round and all 1.5". The ES of thes loads drops to less than 50 fps with the 30 gr load giving the lowest ES. Velocity for the 30 gr load is 1850 fps/133,200 RPM. we shoot the 31 gr load and find the ES is low also but te group increases to 2.3". The 32 through 34 gr loads also have a low ES but the groups size in creases to 3.8" with the 35 gr load at 2240 fps/161,280 RPM. Your buddy has a .308 with a 14" twist and he drives the same bullet to 2550 fps/131,142 RPM with the same 4895 powder and it is shooting very nice 1.5" groups all day long. There is no leading and and the ES (and attendant SD) are low with both rifles. So what caused the inaccuracy in the 10" twist barrel? Simply it is the increase in RPM of the 10" twist that accentuates the defects in the bullets (from the original casting or during accelleration) causing the inaccuracy.

Lot of people preach numerous things. I have a tendancy to go with objective observation of facts.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

[quote=Larry Gibson;229966]

A good synopsis on the pissing contest explanation, but I don't agree at all with your RPM theory, to many contradictions out in the real world!

Well there you go... we agree on some things anyways. Always a pleasure discussing these issues with you.

Larry Gibson

[Nelsdou44]

Issue barrel? The thread title is "cast loads for 6.5x55 w/9"twist".

I'm soaking this up as I shoot the 6.5x55 in a 9 twist barrel and the 6.5x52 in a 10 twist barrel. Carry on!

Nels

[9.3X62AL]

Same here, Nels. Mine is a Ruger 77R, which I assume has a commercial chamber. It runs j-words VERY well, I'm still on the fence whether I'll try cast at all in this rifle. Looking at the price of Nosler Partitions--or even Hornadys--the decision might be by default in favor of castings anyway. STICKER SHOCK.

[Pat I.]

I'm realy hoping this isn't going to turn into some paper patching nonsense.

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,

Don't think of failure. Think of possibilities. My comment about the LLA was because of it's reputation. If one guy can make it work to 2400 fps, then we need to ask how. That can answer many things. Your success may increase significantly with my same bullet, just slightly harder. (or softer) or slightly larger diameter. My offer of the slugs was because the nose shape does make this easier also. I believe those were .309 or .3095. Did you buy the mold yet?

I spend time and money to get barrels and reamers made the way I want them. If you think I am going to over twist your crazy? But not because of RPMs. My 45s perform better with a slower twist and I ain't even close to the ideal RPM level yet. This is why I think your analogy is wrong.

Surely you guys have experience with loads in different twist rifles of the same caliber. I was always able to load jacketed to higher velocity levels in the slower twist than the fast. RPMS .... or pressure?

The rifling twist rate decline allows less of an angle to forward motion and thus less resistance than your 10 twist. That means that his bullet is in effect .... stronger because it is farther down the bore and traveling faster when his pressure peaks. The pressure curve comes up slower and declines faster for him. That's it in a nutshell. Same as powder change.

I have proved this to myself. When I crap with rifle primers, standard practice for me is to switch to a pistol primer and go on up with the powder charge. Does switching to a pistol primer change my twist rate? IF I was crapping because of RPMs, the primer change would be MEANINGLESS. I was changing the pressure curve just enough to allow ACWW to survive. Now when you get too slow, then the primer change makes no difference or can actually go the other way. But a primer change should never conquer RPMs if that was the problem. NEVER.

Another reason. I used the ACWW here was to see if it was pressure or stripping cause the softer lead sizes and engraves easier so it starts out faster to cut pressure. If it was RPMs, then I would have stripped and crapped when I wasn't generating enough pressure to hurt the bullet. Thank God it was summer time, so I wasn't fighting lube too. Cause 2600 fps was only 30,000 psi according to Quickload. In a 10 twist 30, that mix craps at 34,000 psi. See what I mean? 30 caliber appears to be about the peak because when I get to the 35, ACWW craps at 32,000 psi. Now with RL19, I could get another 1/2" of forward motion before pressure peaked and I would have only been about 26,000 psi, but because this cartridge is overbore capacity, I may not have had good enough ignition to use it. Certainly the pistol primer would have been suspect here.

All,

I appologize. This was a side track with this thread to open minds that it is possible. I had originally intended to get a military rifle. Re-barrel it with one of the short chambered Walther drop ins and then try to open minds to possibilities. Listening to the comments here, I am glad I didn't as even this would not have answered this thread. Costs were simply too high for this project just to prove a point as I have little interest in the 6.5 bore for cast other than the challenge. Not only that, but all the military rifles are defective. The bolts are on the wrong side. Last impediment is locating a good 80 to 90 grain mold.

[45 2.1]

I'm realy hoping this isn't going to turn into some paper patching nonsense.

Are you trying to kill this thread.........................? :-?

Please refer to your post #82.

If this continues, this subject will go to e-mail and nobody will see it.

[45 2.1]

This was a side track with this thread to open minds that it is possible. I had originally intended to get a military rifle. Re-barrel it with one of the short chambered Walther drop ins and then try to open minds to possibilities. Listening to the comments here, I am glad I didn't as even this would not have answered this thread. Costs were simply too high for this project just to prove a point as I have little interest in the 6.5 bore for cast other than the challenge. Not only that, but all the military rifles are defective. The bolts are on the wrong side. Last impediment is locating a good 80 to 90 grain mold.

Thats what the major arguement has been, cast in the fast twist militaries. The guys with commercial rifles with the tighter chambers shouldn't have too much trouble with this. The problem is doing it instead of talking about it. Go ahead and try the 25 cal mold patched up, it will tell you what you want to know.

As for the RPM theory, the 10" and 14" twist analogy might produce entirely different results with other rifles of the same twist. thats been known to happen. What is likelier is two 10" twist rifles produceing entirely different results while trying this. Results differ a lot depending on who is running the rifle, even with the same load and components. What about the AR guys running the 223s at 200,000 RPM with good accuracy. Explain that to us.

[Pat I.]

Are you trying to kill this thread.........................? :-?

Please refer to your post #82.

If this continues, this subject will go to e-mail and nobody will see it.

You're right and unless I have something constructive to add I'll keep my mouth shut from now on. My apologies.

[45 2.1]

Now, on with the analysis. You 9" twist guys are in this also as the same procedures are needed except less so due to a better chamber.

Deficiencies of the Military Swede:

Military chamber with large neck diameter
Deep rifling for such a small caliber
Fast twist rifling (maybe)
Long throat that is much larger than the military bullet
Bolt on wrong side of action (I agree with John since we're both left handed)What can be done?

For the chamber, you'll have to live with it and compensate for it. How, consider that commercial brass is smaller than the military brass which was intended to be used in war and had tolerence for foreign materials (slop). The neck will not allow you to fill the chamber up (you commercial guys might manage this with commercial brass, but you need to measure and compensate for it). Graf brass is about 0.0015" to small when loaded with my present biggest boolit that fits and will not produce really good accuracy. What I did was to reform military 30-06 brass and neck turn it where it did fit the chamber neck properly (basically a fitted case). That case was fireformed to the center of the chamber, not left setting full length sized laying in the chamber bottom to fireform lop-sided. You guys check your cartridge runout, fine, but consider that a cartridge with no runout has a lot of runout in the chamber when it doesn't fit it and has the boolit pointing toward one edge of the bore, not the center. The entire objective is to get the boolit started straight down the center of the bore.
The deep rifling really works this small of a boolit, metal is displaced. A malleable alloy that can be heat treated and is not brittle is an advantage here. consider also the boolit design and see if the part that is displaced is really easy to displace thereby not deforming or stressing the boolit.
Fast twist rifling has not proven to be a disaster as several other fast twist barrels in other calibers have went well past the capabilities of the Swede with lead boolits.
That long big throat is a killer. The Lyman 266455 is the lighest, shortest boolit that fits the military swedes throat. It is undersize and has no nose bearing though. The 266469 is the lighest one that actually is most ideal with a almost bore riding nose for some positive alignment, but it has the same problem with being undersize. Hopefully the latest 6.5 GB will solve these problem, provided Lee gets the size right. The Swede militaries have a stock disc which gives you the bore condition and size, learn how to read it when you pick a rifle.
Were not going to touch this one again.If your going to really work on this, pick the Model 38 Swede as it is the easiest one to get to work, the Model 96 is much more difficult as its barrel is longer. Long boolits are harder as well.
More will come after this has been chewed on for awhile.

[Larry Gibson]

Bass Ackward

"When I crap with rifle primers, standard practice for me is to switch to a pistol primer and go on up with the powder charge. Does switching to a pistol primer change my twist rate? IF I was crapping because of RPMs, the primer change would be MEANINGLESS. I was changing the pressure curve just enough to allow ACWW to survive."

Your own argument suports what I say about RPM. Increased RPM accentuates the woble, yaw and non concentric spin of unbalanced (i.e. defects caused by casting or obturation) bullets. By switching to the pistol primer you increase the time pressure curve (accelleration) and your bullets haven't obturated as much (deformed). So then you can increase velocity (RPM) until the bullets once again obturate (defect) too much and accuracy goes south. This is why I don't say there is a numerical "limit" with RPM but a threshold of sevaral thousand (perhaps 10-15) RPM. The point is; given the twist, cast bullet design, alloy, powder, etc there is a certain point where the bullet will obturate enough that the RPM will accentuate the wobble, yaw and non concentric spin causing a loss of velocity. The quicker the twist of the barrel the sooner (velocity wise) RPM increases this accuracy loss will occur.

Thanks for the example of this. Perhaps you should take an objective look at what your findings are.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

How to read the disc snatched from Chuck Hawks website and a link to converting it to real numbers.

>The largest slice of the disc has an outer and an inner arc of numbers. The outer arc bears numbers "6.5" followed by the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (my rifle has a punch mark over the "2"). The inner arc bears the numbers "6.4" followed by 6,7,8,9,0 (no punch mark over a number in the inner arc on my rifle). According to Mats, these numbers reveal the actual diameter of the bore between 6.46mm and 6.59mm in hundredths of a millimeter. My barrel thus has an actual bore diameter of 6.52mm (.2565").<



http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

"What about the AR guys running the 223s at 200,000 RPM with good accuracy. Explain that to us."

In every case of this "good" accuracy when nailed down they admit the rifle will shoot groups about half the size at lower velocity (i.e. less RPM). Thus the question here is; what is "good accuracy"? To me if a rifle that can shoot 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards at 1850 fps that is "good". That rifle shooting that bullet into 3-5" at 22-2500 fps may be "acceptable" depending on the shooting aplication. However, the question here is getting th best accuracy out of a rifle at as high a velocity as possible. Thus you have two considerations; accuracy and velocity. You can have accuracy at low velocity/RPM or you can have poor/acceptable accuracy at high velocity/RPM. It is the RPM that limits the velocity where you get both at the same time.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Larry, assuming all other variables (attributes) were excluded in the regression analysis, your statement is 100 percent true. The analysis will shed more useful illumination if the projectile diameter is included as a parameter. ... felix

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

"What about the AR guys running the 223s at 200,000 RPM with good accuracy. Explain that to us."

In every case of this "good" accuracy when nailed down they admit the rifle will shoot groups about half the size at lower velocity (i.e. less RPM). Thus the question here is; what is "good accuracy"? To me if a rifle that can shoot 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards at 1850 fps that is "good". That rifle shooting that bullet into 3-5" at 22-2500 fps may be "acceptable" depending on the shooting aplication. However, the question here is getting th best accuracy out of a rifle at as high a velocity as possible. Thus you have two considerations; accuracy and velocity. You can have accuracy at low velocity/RPM or you can have poor/acceptable accuracy at high velocity/RPM. It is the RPM that limits the velocity where you get both at the same time.

Larry Gibson

The third option is the one that disproves your theory. That one is good accuracy at high velocity/RPM. All it takes is a high dollar Lothar Walther barrel on an AR to find out for yourself OR go back thru the threads, you'll find something about it for a couple of calibers with fast twist rifling. This is where methodology and boolit size choices have a great effect.

[felix]

The cost of the experiment would be prohibitive. Keeping the dependent variables as consistent as possible would exhibit a good measure of insanity. ... felix

[45 2.1]

The cost of the experiment would be prohibitive. Keeping the dependent variables as consistent as possible would exhibit a good measure of insanity. ... felix

Yes, it is prohibitive, but I know more than a couple of fellows that have done it. No insanity with proper methodolgy though, its just tedious.

The problem with the Swede is one of tolerence stack.

[Calamity Jake]

How to read the disc snatched from Chuck Hawks website and a link to converting it to real numbers.

>The largest slice of the disc has an outer and an inner arc of numbers. The outer arc bears numbers "6.5" followed by the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (my rifle has a punch mark over the "2"). The inner arc bears the numbers "6.4" followed by 6,7,8,9,0 (no punch mark over a number in the inner arc on my rifle). According to Mats, these numbers reveal the actual diameter of the bore between 6.46mm and 6.59mm in hundredths of a millimeter. My barrel thus has an actual bore diameter of 6.52mm (.2565").<



http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm

You still need to slug it, that 6.52 number for your rifle is when the last Swedish armorer checked it and long before it was imported to the US, how much abuse has it had before you got it?
Plus if the action is not in the issue stock(matching SR#) then the #'s on the disc won't mean anything anyway.

This is a very interesting thread!! and I'm learning a lot. Keep up the good work.

[Pat I.]

I can see where it could be misunderstood but this isn't my rifle it's a paragraph I copied and pasted from the site. Your point's well taken though.

[45 2.1]

I can see where it could be misunderstood but this isn't my rifle it's a paragraph I copied and pasted from the site. Your point's well taken though.

While the bore and groove dimensions are a good thing to have, I would be more interested in the part of the disc that had the barrels condition. A very important item if your buying.

[Pat I.]

Pertains to 96, don't know about 94 or 38.

========================

One last point about the m/96 stock. There is a brass disc about 30mm in diameter inletted into the right side of the buttstock. There are actually three disc variations, an early 2-screw disc, a later 2-screw disc, and a 1-screw disc. My rifle has the one screw type disc, and the information that follows pertains only to the one screw disc. For information about the two screw discs, or additional details about the one screw disc and lots of other information about Swedish weapons, see Mats' Weapons Page online. That is where I learned how to decipher the disc on my rifle.

The one screw disc is divided into 3 sections, each of which is marked in such a way as to reveal some information about that particular rifle. The smallest "slice" of the brass disc bears the numbers 1, 2, and 3 with a triangular punch mark over one of the numbers. This indicates the condition of the bore. No punch mark is perfect. 1 means a very few dark areas in the corners of the lands and grooves. 2 indicates rust in the corners of the lands and grooves and possible light rust in the grooves. 3 indicates spots of light rust throughout the grooves, but no sharp edges; this is still acceptable. A rifle scoring lower than 3 was rebarreled. My rifle is a 3, but any rifle passed by the Swedish armorers will shoot very well, as the inspectors were quite picky. The bore of my rifle looks good to the naked eye.

[Bass Ackward]

Thanks for the example of this. Perhaps you should take an objective look at what your findings are.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

Will Rogers said it best, When presented with the facts, almost 50% of the people will turn right around and vote Republican. :grin:

Goin downstairs do do that very thing Right now. :grin:

[Pat I.]

If your going to really work on this, pick the Model 38 Swede as it is the easiest one to get to work, the Model 96 is much more difficult as its barrel is longer. Long boolits are harder as well.
More will come after this has been chewed on for awhile.

Everyone's playing nice and I have a good 38 and I will try it out so can we get on with it, my jaws are getting tired.

[45 2.1]

Everyone's playing nice and I have a good 38 and I will try it out so can we get on with it, my jaws are getting tired.

Take a impact pure lead throat slug of your rifle with case attached. I will assume you know how to do that properly since it was an article on the CBA site. Get your micrometer out so you can answer questions. Have some of your presently loaded cast boolit cartridges and fired fully formed cases from a full load handy also.

[Pat I.]

I said I'll try it not that I was prepared to try it right now. Can't you just write up the whole thing and get it over with?

[45 2.1]

I said I'll try it not that I was prepared to try it right now. Can't you just write up the whole thing and get it over with?

Patience........! This is for the board and will be presented as I see fit. If you don't want to participate, just say so.

[Pat I.]

Patience........! This is for the board and will be presented as I see fit. If you don't want to participate, just say so.

Fair enough, I say so but give me a jingle when you get to patching up 25 caliber bullets would ya I have to go start the shower....................

[45 2.1]

Take a impact pure lead throat slug of your rifle with case attached. Get your micrometer out so you can answer questions. Have some of your presently loaded cast boolit cartridges and fired fully formed cases from a full load handy also.

Anyone else want to help with this part, it requires some participation. Someone with a military Swede that has the above items.

[Larry Gibson]

The third option is the one that disproves your theory. That one is good accuracy at high velocity/RPM. All it takes is a high dollar Lothar Walther barrel on an AR to find out for yourself OR go back thru the threads, you'll find something about it for a couple of calibers with fast twist rifling. This is where methodology and boolit size choices have a great effect.

Not sure how the "high dollar: barrel answers the question of those here using the barrels they've got. By the way I have shot high dollar WL barrels of several calibers. I've a couple barrels that shoot right along with them. Sorry but the answer remains the same and "dollars" have nothing to do with it.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

The discs on Swedes mean nothing. They have been swapped around for years, mainly by people in this country.

[45 2.1]

Fitting the Boolit:
Take a impact slug of the chamber neck along with an inch of the throat/barrel. From this measure the O.D. of the chamber neck slug to determine the I.D. of the chamber neck. This diameter minus 0.0008” should be the maximum ideal neck diameter of your loaded cartridge. Now what? Determine the bore and groove diameters from the impact slug as well as the configuration of the throat. From this you will get the length of the boolit body needed for your ideal slug. You want the boolit to be at or above the throat diameter with the boolit body about as long as the distance from the base of the cartridge neck to where it engraves on the throat with a shorter nose that actually does engrave the bore some. The boolit body diameter should be the maximum ideal neck diameter for the cartridge minus two case neck wall thicknesses. Here is where you will have trouble. You will probably need a big boolit to match the thin case neck wall thicknesses of commercial brass. Most combinations do not fit and the loaded cartridge neck diameter will not fill the chamber up to the maximum ideal neck diameter. Any tolerance over that given here will allow misalignment enough to send the boolit into the throat misaligned and produce somewhat wild groups if this long for caliber skinny boolit bends. Boolit alloy helps greatly here. Many approaches can work here. Reforming thicker neck brass and neck turning it so you can produce adequate tolerences as well as bumping shorter boolits up as well as paper patching or teflon patching undersize cast boolits to size. Proper temper for any of these approaches is necessary though. The best approach is proper boolit size along with cases with proper neck thickness. This is a lot easier to do with commercial rifles than with the military chambers on the Swedes though.

The Case:
With present cases, the boolit needs to be LARGE, much more so than what is readily available. The 6.5 Kurtz GB boolit should work as well as the current 6.5 GB. The Lyman 266469 and 266455 are suitable in the larger cast sizes for 1850 fps shooting as they are, but do not do as well above that due to boolit size. The case needs to be fitted by fireforming to the center of the chamber. If you see the head expanded more on one side than the other, it is not correct. Once you have a properly fireformed centered case with a neck big enough to use a larger boolit with a loaded diameter to the maximum ideal neck diameter, you can usually get away with most anything provided that the neck is not annealed. The case neck needs to be hard as annealed case necks produce poor results. The basic rules still apply and you have to match the alloy temper to the pressure level you intend to shot at, the powder should produce a pressure curve that is lower. Hercules 2400 works well at 1850 fps and the medium burning IMR powders work well above that.

The main objective is to get the boolit into the rifling straight without bending the boolit out of line with the bore. You bend it before it is into the barrel all the way and it isn’t going to shoot. A tough malleable heat treated alloy works well here. I’ve had very good luck with old wheel-weights as cast and air-cooled, then aged for a long time with the 1850 fps loads. Anything above that velocity level requires harder boolits. Boolits of tin or soft alloys don’t seem to work here.

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I am very interested in what all of you have to say. And I am glad you are offering up some info. I am in the throes of coming up with a 96. I know squat about them but am learning. IF I had it in hand I would participate, I don't so I am sitting on the sidelines watching the game.

And the next statement is not ment as an attack, far from it it is meant as a reward for your hard work to gain knowledge and put it to use. So don't get upset, it is just a way to deal with the rest of "us bone heads who can't follow a simple process". So here goes,

If you have a hard time with sharing your hard found knowledge, do so in a way that benefits you. Write a book. That book would definitely end up on my shelf and after many hours of reading, pondering, and experimenting I would be better for purchasing it. Hell I might even donate it to the local library. It would also allow, as stated earlier, an easier way to get at the information.

I am not partial to gettting your knowledge one way or the other. Printed and under copyright or freely from you here. Either way it will be in the public domain sooner or later, and right or wrong. I would prefer to get the info sooner so opt for the here and now, but knowledge is worth alot if you have the motivation to seek it and put it to use once found.

Even if you offer the info up here, I would encourage you to write it up also. It will take some time for you, but I know a good bunch of guys here that would like to read it.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil and offering to me the bonehead who has a hard time following a proceedure.

Jeremy

[Calamity Jake]

"The case needs to be fitted by fireforming to the center of the chamber. "

So tell us how you fireform to the center of the chamber!!

A false shoulder centers the neck. How are you going to center the head?

The false shoulder forces the case back against the closed bolt, but there no way to know if the case head is centered in the chamber!!

[leftiye]

2.1,
Thanks for the overview, and sorry for my previous anger. I don't have a 6.5, and would rather have a .25, if ever. Is the chamber neck so excessively loose that if we opened the freebore to match the chamber neck (minus case thickness+) boolits would then be too big to shoot? Do shorter boolits work better?

[45 2.1]

Thanks Jeremy, but I need a real writer to do that. I didn't have an English major or minor for very good reasons. For the technique to be more user friendly, I still need a volunter, even a guy with a commercial chambered rifle would be ok. I know more than a couple of guys on here have the rifles, molds and tools. Come on guys, I don't bite the help.

[45 2.1]

"The case needs to be fitted by fireforming to the center of the chamber. "

So tell us how you fireform to the center of the chamber!! Scotch tape just in front of the extractor groove back of where the head expands will do the back end. One thickness or two will still chamber. A fat boolit will do the front end seated out.

A false shoulder centers the neck. Or flared neck How are you going to center the head?

The false shoulder forces the case back against the closed bolt, but there no way to know if the case head is centered in the chamber!!

[45 2.1]

Thanks for the overview, and sorry for my previous anger. OK I don't have a 6.5, and would rather have a .25, if ever. Is the chamber neck so excessively loose In the Swede military with current commercial brass it is. 30-06 military with turned necks and fatter boolits will fit it. that if we opened the freebore to match the chamber neck (minus case thickness+) boolits would then be too big to shoot? The Swedes were chambered for the 156/160 gr. RN, they already have more freebore than you want. You have to fill it up with boolit body. Do shorter boolits work better? Up to a point, they still need to be long enough to fill up the freebore area.

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

Would a different caliber rifle for demonstration purposes work for this thread? Maybe a volunteer would step up with a different caliber if it will help demonstrate?

Also don't let your personally percieved lack of writing ability or language usage be a hinderance. You can still get ideas across. All you have to do is read Veral's book to know you don't need to be an english teacher to get ideas out to the world. And if you write the book you don't have to worry about coming to a consensus about wording.

Anxiously awaiting more food for the brain.

[scrapcan]

BTT

We have all wanted 45 2.1 to revela some info to us. He is offering, but we have no willing guinea pigs. I don't have a rifle to get in on the game.

I would think someone would step in and help us learn the tricks. We have heard lots of grumbling and nagging and now we have a chance to see the process.

[Pat I.]

Can only speak for myself but after 12 days, 121 posts spread out over 7 pages, repeated attempts to call the hounds out because I'm a CBA member, and finally having to resort to a$$ kissing to find out the "trick" is to use 06 brass and patched 25 caliber bullets which could have been explained on page 1 it just seems anticlimactic. I have a good time and get good accuracy with my 6.5s at the speeds that work for me so in my case I just ain't interested anymore.

[BABore]

This fine saga almost makes me want to run out and buy a 6.5 Mil just so I can play too. Since I must be nice here, I shall leave you with this;

From Aesop's Fables "The Fox and the Grapes"

One afternoon a fox was walking through the forest and spotted a bunch of grapes hanging from over a lofty branch.

"Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he.

Taking a few steps back, the fox jumped and just missed the hanging grapes. Again the fox took a few paces back and tried to reach them but still failed.

Finally, giving up, the fox turned up his nose and said, "They're probably sour anyway," and proceeded to walk away.

Moral: It's easy to despise what you cannot have.

[45 2.1]

Hmmm.............................. Reminds me of Joe telling everyone it won't work when he didn't have a Swede rifle himself. First hand results trump 2nd hand BS every time or so a fella has said. Sticking with the basics will get you what your looking for.

[45 2.1]

Hey I can still read you know. Since neither of you guys added one thing when the discussion was in full swing don't you think it's a little foolish to try to throw the boot in now??

It's a little hard to take you guys serious when one admits he doesn't even own a Swede and the others contribution is a fairy tale, but then again maybe that's what this whole thing is all about and I'm the one missing the point.

Why don't we just drop this pile on nonsense right here before we're all in taking cold showers.

(let me amend that to say both guys don't own a Swede)

Pat

Shamefull way for a moderator on the CBA forums to act on another forum. Is your word no good............?

[scrapcan]

Yep I don't own one either, but I sure would like to get down to learning something. Let's do this thing as a group and see what happens.

I still ask if we can do this with another caliber and rifle. This thread is about the 6.5 so maybe not good to throw another banana into the oranges.

[45nut]

I'd like to think this thread can be wrapped up without any more mud-slinging and innuendos.
I know there are many more adults on this forum that declined to post or removed a post when tact was lacking in the content. I ask that future posts keep in mind that we are all adults and we should be willing to be gentlemen.

[scrapcan]

OK all I will try to step up and follow the instructions.

I picked up a 1916 M96 swede last week. A good friend offered one up just as this thread was being developed. I have not had a chance to slug or form cases. I did get a set of 6.5X55 RCBS dies in trade a couple weeks ago. Thanks NVcurmudgeon for the trade.

I would prefer to use the correct size 6.5x55 brass instead of reformed 06, but no takers on a trade for brass. I will try to drum up some correct brass, but in the mean time I will try to get some 06 brass formed, fit (using tape), and fireformed using jwords to set a baseline. The rifle has all matching numbers. It needs to have the bore cleaned as there is some copper fouling present.

Slugging of the bore will follow cleaning. It will also be test fired using the jwords at this point. I hope to add something to the discussion on the topic of cast in a military 6.5x55. Sorry that it will most likely not address the original intent of the thread. Please accept my apologies on that.

So for now I have some work to do prior to commencing on the tutoring that is forthcoming.

Hang in there and we will all get a chance to see what is learned. I have absolutely no prior experience with the 6.5x55 or the m96. As such I may need more help than others, be patient.

[45 2.1]

Brass:
http://www.grafs.com/metallic/709

You will need to take a lead throat slug of the rifle. You need a case filled to the base of the neck with lead and a heavy pure lead boolit that will fit in the case neck and chamber, a cold rolled rod small enough to be taped that can be slid down the bore besides the normal stuff you already have. Now would be an excellent time for the 6.5 Group Buy molds to show up.

[leftiye]

Manley, I would stick to the reformed 30-06 brass IF the factory stuff is too thin in the neck as per your chamber dimensions. This way you can acquire brass that is the right thickness for your gun's chamber. Outside turn it if you can, more accurate.

In this discussion as I have followed it, this issue, case neck wall thickness is the main goblin lurking and causing problems. Others would be fitting a non standard freebore/leade situation, and over pressuring them long thin boolits so that they collapse upon themselves.

You could (my choice) cast your chamber to see what the neck and freebore dimensions and lengths are. Remember that the cerrosafe is chamber size 1/2 hour after the cast is made (write the dimensions down), and grows some there after.

[45 2.1]

There are some oddities about the Swede chamber. All i've measured are on the large end, but Maven has one in which the neck of the chamber is tighter. A chamber neck and barrel throat slug will be necessary to get all the pertinent dimensions to decide on what to do.

[scrapcan]

i have lots of 06 brass to reform so will start there as suggested. I gave away the cerrosafe that I had so will have to make a pound slug of the neck and throat area.

shoul dI make a case that is shorter than the actual chamber and then take a throat slug to get a proper overall case length along with the other dimensions.

Again this may take a little time to get things to come together, be patient.

[scrapcan]

A question on brass

I have access to Remington and Winchester brass locally. Is the case head of proper dimension or is it made form the standard 30-06 head parent case? Would it be better to have Norma, Lapua, or RWS brass? I will plan to start with reformed 3006 military brass once I get the slugs done. But a bit of work needs to be done before hand.

[BD]

My simple six step program to happiness shootin' cast in the old swedes:

1. buy some Lapua brass, Norma will do but it's softer and usually costs more. This brass will last a very long time neck sized with cast loads in the swede. I have lapua cases I've loaded 30 times with cast in the 6.5x55 without ever full length sizing them.
2. buy a mold which will drop a bullet at .268 and a .267 push through size die.
3. buy a neck sizing die, the lee collet works fine, the redding bushing die is better, but more $$
4. try 10-15 grains of Unique to start.
5. Stay with bullets in the 140 - 150 grain range to start. I have one of the early Jumptrap 140 grain molds which will easily shoot 1" at 100.
6. forget loading out near the lands, just size the bullet to fit the throat, (.267 in all four swedes I've owned), and then fiddle the OAL until your groups shrink up.

Load them up and enjoy shooting. No recoil to speak of, but enough "bang" to impress a kid, enough trajectory to learn to shoot without needing 400 yards and accurate enough to really be enjoyable. Learn to shoot kneeling and prone. Use the stripper clips. Learn to use a sling. Try off hand at 100 yards. Teach a kid to shoot while you're at it, then load up some 140 grain speers and let the kid hunt with it. You'll have a convert for life, and you'll recieve much satisfaction.

When you get bored with it, then start into your quest to shoot heavier boolits at higher velocities. I don't know what you'll find at the end of the road, but the path will be interesting.
Just remember to keep everything you value out of the "180 deg rule" zone downrange when you start into the 160 grainers at 2,000 fps :)
BD

[Pat I.]

My simple six step program to happiness shootin' cast in the old swedes:

1. buy some Lapua brass, Norma will do but it's softer and usually costs more. This brass will last a very long time neck sized with cast loads in the swede. I have lapua cases I've loaded 30 times with cast in the 6.5x55 without ever full length sizing them.
2. buy a mold which will drop a bullet at .268 and a .267 push through size die.
3. buy a neck sizing die, the lee collet works fine, the redding bushing die is better, but more $$
4. try 10-15 grains of Unique to start.
5. Stay with bullets in the 140 - 150 grain range to start. I have one of the early Jumptrap 140 grain molds which will easily shoot 1" at 100.
6. forget loading out near the lands, just size the bullet to fit the throat, (.267 in all four swedes I've owned), and then fiddle the OAL until your groups shrink up.

Load them up and enjoy shooting. No recoil to speak of, but enough "bang" to impress a kid, enough trajectory to learn to shoot without needing 400 yards and accurate enough to really be enjoyable. Learn to shoot kneeling and prone. Use the stripper clips. Learn to use a sling. Try off hand at 100 yards. Teach a kid to shoot while you're at it, then load up some 140 grain speers and let the kid hunt with it. You'll have a convert for life, and you'll recieve much satisfaction.

When you get bored with it, then start into your quest to shoot heavier boolits at higher velocities. I don't know what you'll find at the end of the road, but the path will be interesting.
Just remember to keep everything you value out of the "180 deg rule" zone downrange when you start into the 160 grainers at 2,000 fps :)
BD

I don't know who you are but if you ever decide to run for president of the cast bullet forums you've got my vote.

[BD]

I'm not planning to run for anything. However, the guy standing next to me in my avatar is.
BD

[Pat I.]

Hard to tell but if that's Fred Thompson that would be two presidents I'll vote for.

[Bret4207]

Yeah, who is that BD?

[BD]

That is Fred Thompson. We hosted a campaign stop at my wifes Cafe last week and I got to talk with Fred a bit. He's for real and I'm supporting him. We're not allowed to talk politics here so I'll leave it at that.
BD

[Larry Gibson]

I'm really not sure I'd waste any effort (more than I already have anyway) on reforming 6.5x55 cases out of '06 brass to get thicker necks. I have reformed 4 different lots of U.S. '06 brass; LC 68 Match, DEN 42, WRA 55 and LC 69. Last night I seated a 140 gr MK in each of them and compared the neck thickness to cases formed from WW 7x57 and 6.5x55 cases of Norma, PMC and Hanson manufacture. All had a case neck thickness of between .019 and .022" The Hanson factory 6.5 was the thickest.

I've not found any accuracy difference between them with any cast bullet but then I'm not getting any accuracy at HV anyway in my 6.5 Swedes. The best accuracy I've got is with the shorter Lovern 266455 which is a 125 gr bullet when cast of ACWWs+5% tin. They drop at .267 and I have to size them to .266" to chamber in the throats of my 4 Swede military barrels. This bullet when seated to the bottom of the neck just kisses the leade of the rifling so it is (in my opinion) a perfect fit. There then is no nose to bend or obturate unevenly during acceleration. This goes along with Bass's recommendation of a short lighter bullet for caliber that just fits the neck, the throat and just touches the rifling. Anyways this 266455 gives consistantly better accuracy at a higher velocity (did not say high velocity though) than any other bullet I've tried, particularly the heavier ones.

I've a SR Mexican M98 that has been sporterized on which I put a new surplus 6.5x55 Swede barrel. It does shoot sub MOA with jacketed bullets so the accuracy is there. A picture of the rifle is below. The headspace is very tight as I can just feel the bolt close on a FL sized case. Anyways with this 6.5 Swede rifle I can get 1.5 to 2" five shot groups at 100 yards in the 1800 fps range. I have run this bullet up through 2600 fps and it just "hit the target" (let's not go there again!!!). Note that when velocity is dropped down (RPM also) to the 1600 to 1700 range accuracy is at it's best with several 1" groups fired. I've some bullets cast and will endever to shoot a few groups for pictures.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Great info. thanks one and all. I will get on with my end asap. I am not doing this to prove things to anyone but myself and I mean to learn as much as I can from where ever I can. I am still rounding up stuff and will try to make progress.

I am glad we all decided to kee pthis thread civil and alive. No need to go the other way. I may have to call on all of you for help so follow along and offer whatever ya got to share.

[BD]

Boy Larry, I'm jealous. If you can touch the leade near the lands with a 125 grainer sized .266 you've got a shorter throat than I've ever found on a swede. Did you set it back? Is it a husky?
All four of my swedes were CGs, (I still have two), and I've always needed a 160 grainer to get near the rifling, and 160 grainers sized .277 would chamber in all of them. I have the pointy version of the 140 grain Jumptrap mold and as long as I keep it under 1,750 fps it will really group well. When I go to longer bullets and/or higher velocities things get a lot trickier for sure.
BD

[Larry Gibson]

Boy Larry, I'm jealous. If you can touch the leade near the lands with a 125 grainer sized .266 you've got a shorter throat than I've ever found on a swede. Did you set it back? Is it a husky?
All four of my swedes were CGs, (I still have two), and I've always needed a 160 grainer to get near the rifling, and 160 grainers sized .277 would chamber in all of them. I have the pointy version of the 140 grain Jumptrap mold and as long as I keep it under 1,750 fps it will really group well. When I go to longer bullets and/or higher velocities things get a lot trickier for sure.
BD

BD

You got to understand how far out the front driving band is on a Lovern design is. Below is a picture of the 266455 sitting along side the 6.5x55 casr neck. All 4 of my Swede chambers have pretty much the standard long throat. Note on the Lovern 266455 how little bullet nose there actually is. It has been so much so the best cast bullet I've tried so far that I traded off my other 6.5 moulds some time back. Never could get a heavier design with a bore riding nose to shoot as well as this one at any velocity above 1500 fps. Yeh, I know some have but I could not do it in the Swede. I do like 266455 in the Swede though.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

I am getting closer on my end. I have 25 06 cases annealed and ready for reforming. Once I get them fireformed I will be ready to do the slugging and we will get on with the learning.

[scrapcan]

got some win 6.5x55 brass and reformed some 06 cases. will try to get some jacketed shot down range, gun cleaned and chamber/throat slug done. Then will get on the learning track with 45 2.1

[scrapcan]

Had a chance to fire the m96 today. I have brass fire formed and ready to make clean barrel fully. Should have a chance to make the throat slug and a push thru in the next week. I also have one of the GB 6.5 mould coming Thanks to Grandsrus (Thanks John, I really appreciate you holding a mould for me).

I was lucky that an uncle came across a battle pack of m41 swedish ammo. It is all berdan primed but it is very accurate. I fired a box of it today also. I am going to try to buy the rest of the battle pack, I only picked up 3 boxes to start with.

I have some hope in the rifle. It was 27 degrees and sustained wind of 25-30 with gusts of 50+. While shooting the wind was a quartering cross wind (shooting North (12 o'clock) wind coming form North West (11 o'clock). I would post the targets I shot but no one would be impressed, I was however. Best I had was 13 rounds in a 2 vertical x 3 inch horizontal group. The other sets of targets all had a small cluster with some fliers that opened it up to 3+ inches. All shots were jacketed and at 50 yds. As I said no one will be impressed.

No I will try to get on with the learning, if 45 2.1 is still up for being the teacher.

[scrapcan]

Still moving at a snails pace, but moving none the less.

I am working on getting a good throat slug done. Need to dig into the pure lead roof flashing as the lead wire I bought is not working out very well.

Garandrus graciously got me in on the 6.5 group buy and the mould is here. I cast about 10 lbs fromt eh GB mould and it was a bit tough to get seasoned adn casting good. But it is now casting good. Man can you dro a pile of these in a hurry with the 6 cavity mould. All cavities drop 2695 to 270 with the alloy I used today. I have not weighed any yet.

More to come, stay tuned.

[scrapcan]

The pace is still slow but I think I have 2 good throat slugs in fired cases that will work for this little project. I am corresponding with 45 2.1 to see if they will work for the teaching and learnin phase.

[scrapcan]

Guinea Pig project is still on. I sent a couple throat slugs for 2 swedes, a M96-1916 (mine) and a M38-1942. Hopefully one of them will lend itself to the fitting lesson.

[Buckshot]

................I like a man that hangs in there on a project :-)

.............Buckshot

[runfiverun]

manleyjt
keep us posted on how things are going for you
i'm still following this and am doing a little work with my 7.5x55
but not to this extent.
but am following your posts maybe some of the others would still chime in on this topic
some more.
most of us know how to cast, and follow the usual routes to get our loads to shoot.
load testing moving boolits in&out,primers etc.................but the why's

throat dimensions barell harmonics fine tuning
thats the cool stuff.
a lot of the time we know what we want just not sure of how [or dont have the time, cash
to mess up a good mould,gun etc.. to find out]
to get it or if it will even work.
thats where the share comes in

i have broke bent ruined wore out a few things and will be happy to put in my .02 woth
if someone asks.
and i may be wrong and would like to know from someone else who figures it out
before i do it again.

runfiverun

[scrapcan]

Buckshot,

Thanks for your Support. Sometimes it takes a bit o'time to get from under the honeydo's and the I think I will have a beer. And now it is not me who is the project driver. Throat slugs have made it to 45 2.1.

Runfiverun,

I hear on the ever ending need to try to learn. I thought it would be good to learn the method of another on the forum.

[45 2.1]

Here is Jeremy's rifles chamber neck and throat:

[45 2.1]

Here is the latest GB 6.5mm boolit in his chamber neck and throat. These are the results. We will discuss how they came to be.

[runfiverun]

is this a tapered boolit?
yhat is something i just picked up to try in my 375.
if i don't have to size it too much

runfiverun

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I almost missed this one in the huge list of new posts. I have cast the new GB mold and in my alloy will go 269 to 271, I think (I will check this evening). It looks like I should do ok sizing as you said. I await more explanation.

Thanks a bunch and sorry it took so long on my end.

Jeremy

[45 2.1]

Jeremy-
Measure the inside neck diameter of several fired cases and tell us what you get. Make sure no crimp is left before doing that.

[scrapcan]

Bob,

I will measure the inside diameter of the case neck. Do you want the brass thickness also?

I measured some of the cast bullets from the GB mould. I am using a mix 10lb ww+ 1lb lino at the moment. The boolits are dropping from the mould, all six cavities not segregated, at .2695 to .2705.

Jeremy

[45 2.1]

I will measure the inside diameter of the case neck. From several cases. Do you want the brass thickness also? That would help.

I measured some of the cast bullets from the GB mould. I am using a mix 10lb ww+ 1lb lino at the moment. The boolits are dropping from the mould, all six cavities not segregated, at .2695 to .2705. You have some leeway in choosing a boolit size diameter. With the above factors, you will narrow that choice down.

[scrapcan]

I measured a bunch of fired cases. I forgot to bring the measurements with me today. I will try to post this evening.

[scrapcan]

Here are some case neck measurements

swiss service ammo (6.5mm sk ptr m/94 prj m/41 prickskytte)
average of 9, ID .2667, thickness 0.0150

Winchester 6.5x55 new fired once (.473 head and web)
average of 5, ID .2724, thickness 0.0142

reformed Lake City 52 brass average 19
Three loads tested with jacketed bullets gave different neck expansion.
Loads where sooty necks went away gave (average of 7 cases)

ID .2668, thickness .0157

[scrapcan]

back to the top for more learnin

[Bret4207]

If you guys want we can sticky this thread in the Military Rifles Board?

[45 2.1]

Here are some case neck measurements

swiss service ammo (6.5mm sk ptr m/94 prj m/41 prickskytte)
average of 9, ID .2667, thickness 0.0150 Part of the problem here is these measurements are not close to the projected O.D. of the measured neck diameter from the lead throat slug. You need to check the measurement to see if any crimp is still at the case neck. Minimum O.D. I measured was 0.300". This one is 0.004" under that potentially and indicates crimp left.

Winchester 6.5x55 new fired once (.473 head and web)
average of 5, ID .2724, thickness 0.0142 This one shows true potential dimensions.

reformed Lake City 52 brass average 19
Three loads tested with jacketed bullets gave different neck expansion.
Loads where sooty necks went away gave (average of 7 cases)

ID .2668, thickness .0157 Did you turn the case necks? They should show about 1/2 coverage when turned when uniformed. The cases i've used showed somewhat thicker necks, but they're pretty old too.

From the throat measurements, depending on boolit body length, you should use a minimum diameter 0.269" boolit for the mold you have. If you have a Lee push thru sizer, you could use a larger diameter, up to 0.271" dependent on your case neck diameter. You can size large and taper those in the Lee push-thru to match your seating depth and throat taper. I would try for a 0.269" to 0.2695" sized diameter if useing a normal H&I die. Larger if your going to taper the driving bands that stick out of the case neck. Maximum loaded case neck diameter should be about 0.0008 to 0.001" under measured maximum case neck O.D.

Bret, if you want to sticky this go ahead, but this thread contains a lot of posts that will disinterest newbies.

[runfiverun]

okay if i have this correct
with the winchester brass and your boolit sized to .269
you will have .005 for case neck expansion
or according to case dimension drawings i have if your chamber is .303 [ neck area]
it will be .006 or am i missing something?

are you going to try to go over 1800 with this boolit then?

[45 2.1]

okay if i have this correct with the winchester brass and your boolit sized to .269 you will have .005 for case neck expansion
or according to case dimension drawings i have if your chamber is .303 [ neck area] it will be .006 or am i missing something?
The O.D. of the case neck was purposely not given on the drawing as it varied more than I normally measure. What you do is do an impact throat slug and measure the case neck with a micrometer. Subtract 0.0008" to 0.001", then subtract twice the case neck wall thickness that your useing. That will give you the maximum boolit size you can use. Compare that to caliper I.D. measurements of your fired, crimpless case necks for confirmation. The rifles throat will determine what you need for a boolit and the options you have. You may be able to use a normally sized boolit or you may chose to fit the boolit to the case neck, then taper what is out of the case to the throat dimensions by useing a Lee push-thru die by only pushing it into the tapered region, then pushing it back out the way it came in.

are you going to try to go over 1800 with this boolit then? I am, I don't know about anyone else. If you listen to them, they will say it won't work contrary to several that have posted it will work, including me. Your choice and methodology.

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I need to load up the reformed brass. I worked a short set of load data to get the cases and throat slug to you. I was quite surprised at the dimensions that I measured. I had expected them to be much closer in id.

I was surpised to see that the reformed used 3 powder charges and only the highest load showed no soot on the neck. That load is at the top of several load manuals consulted. I will work up but need time to delve into it correctly. Also good to mention that the sooted necks measured very close to the load that had no soot. All reformed cases were annealed.

The reformed cases were not outside turned. After shooting a few I felt that I needed to turn the next set I reformed. Also need to make the overall case length a bit longer as I have a bit more length in the chamber.

Would you like me to turn the necks on a set of brass to work with?

I also plan to try to push this bullet to test. It may take a while to get that far though.

Bret,

Sticky if you want, I am jsut trying to play the role of the guinea pig. I will follow this as far as it takes me given enough time.

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I need to get a sizer coming. I am inclined to get both an H&I die and a push thru. I could lube and seat GC in a Larger H&I and then use the push thru to experiment with.

I am also having a tough tiem with 6.5 GC locally. I will most likely have to order form midsouth or midway. I have nto borached the subject of other members here having some 6.5 gators to sell trade, I am in for the GC GB on 6.5 when it comes to be.

I will do some more on my end when I get a chance. You know life is trying to get in the way again.

Jeremy

[45 2.1]

I was surpised to see that the reformed used 3 powder charges and only the highest load showed no soot on the neck. That load is at the top of several load manuals consulted. I will work up but need time to delve into it correctly. Also good to mention that the sooted necks measured very close to the load that had no soot. All reformed cases were annealed. I highly recommend you do NOT anneal case necks in this caliber. If you do so, work harden the case necks by running them in and out of the sizer over the expander ball until they drag and you can feel them pull over the ball (6 reps or more). annealing works against any results here, you want hard case necks.

The reformed cases were not outside turned. After shooting a few I felt that I needed to turn the next set I reformed. Also need to make the overall case length a bit longer as I have a bit more length in the chamber.

Would you like me to turn the necks on a set of brass to work with? Only enough to uniform them lightly, do not go under 0.0125" neck wall thickness if you can help it.

I need to get a sizer coming. I am inclined to get both an H&I die and a push thru. I could lube and seat GC in a Larger H&I and then use the push thru to experiment with. Buckshot can make both. I would try the H&I at 0.2695" to 0.270" and the push thru a little smaller at about 0.269" maximum.

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I had really wondered about the annealing. I did the reform in a coule of stages and then did as you suggested, I ran the brass back in 2 extra times. In forming 7mm06 cases, I also had to make sure the necks are a bit hardened to keep the necks form shortening too much when fireforming to the AI.

I will form some new cases and not anneal. They will also be cut longer. I can neck turn them also.

I had planned on seeing if Buckshot would make me both an H&I and a push thru. I will get with him and see if we can get something coming.

more to follow

[runfiverun]

okay[ light bulb]
so if the boolit will fit the throat but you dont have that .001
neck expansion you need to turn the necks till you do.
what about re-sizing the necks. if they get too small
i am kinda playing the home version here but with a 7.65 argentine.
i know you kinda get what you get here.
but im following along trying to put a procedure together that should work for just about
any rifle.
and have avaried back ground with different types of shooting ,so far a lot of this is
making a lot of sense.

basically so far what i've got is find out what you got
and make everything else fit it. makes sense, i just havent gone quite this far with
the measuring though. makes sense to me!!!

[45 2.1]

okay[ light bulb] so if the boolit will fit the throat but you dont have that .001 neck expansion you need to turn the necks till you do. If the case necks are large enough, most of the time they aren't. Lots of ways to go here. Ideally, the boolit should be large enough to give minimum clearance on the case neck when loaded, but the boolit shouldn't really be over throat diameter. Any part outside the case should fit the throat into the lands.
what about re-sizing the necks. Just about 0.0015 under the boolit diameter. if they get too small A neck expander die.
i am kinda playing the home version here but with a 7.65 argentine. These usually take 0.313" boolits well and have more clearance than necessary in reformed 30-06 cases in the 7.65 Arg. You can try a little larger boolit if it fits the throat.
i know you kinda get what you get here. but im following along trying to put a procedure together that should work for just about
any rifle. and have avaried back ground with different types of shooting ,so far a lot of this is making a lot of sense.

basically so far what i've got is find out what you got
and make everything else fit it. That is the idea....makes sense, i just havent gone quite this far with
the measuring though. makes sense to me!!!

[scrapcan]

runfiverun,

You have picked up why I was interested in buying the swede to play the game.

45 2.1,

Thanks for playing along with me, sorry I am a bit slow. I am in the process of getting dies and gas checks.

[runfiverun]

hear ya on the gas checks
been checking sportsmans weekly finally got one box after like 6 weeks
not going to go into that .................morons..........
with 06 brass military
after firing it i cant finger push a boolit into the fired and unsized case
this may be the best in benchrest worlds, as i think i have about .001
neck tension here
but it is fairly hard to chamber i dont have to beat it closed but have to put a little
oomph in it.
i may have to buy a neck trimmer?
on the other hand shot wy ruger .308 today 31 gr imr -4895
175 gr rcbs sil boolit nose is 300. sized at .310, wow at 50 ripped a hole
shot it at 100 1" to1 1/2 "
going to try 32 &33 tomorrow 33 is @ 1900 in 26" bbl mine is 20"
but i dont have to clean it i shot 40 rds today if weather is good
i will 25 each of others tomorrow

[runfiverun]

well the 32 gr load looked well you know the 33 gr was much better
so i yook it up to 34 & 35. dumb rifle must like odd #'s
still havenot had to clean and the groups came right back at 35gr
am going to try to get chrono out tomorrow
with 36-38 gr loads starting to get some load density here
but i dont know where to stop
i shoot 42-43 gr in my m-14 with j-bullits 147 gr's
i have to be approaching 30,000 psi here.
guess we will see i think 40 gr may be my cut-off point
but we are getting into chrono-land here.
still no pressure signs at all primers are just starting to square but no flattening

[Nrut]

The pace is still slow but I think I have 2 good throat slugs in fired cases that will work for this little project. I am corresponding with 45 2.1 to see if they will work for the teaching and learnin phase.
manleyjt....What size rod did you use down your bore to upset your throat slugs?...I just ordered an old Husky Lwt. in 6.5X55 and I have a .260 Rem and the Gb 6.5 mold so your project interests me greatly...:)
Thanks,
Mike

[scrapcan]

Nrut,

I used a .25 (run of the mill cold rolled rod form Home depot). Used thin tape around it in several spots.

A good friend just bought a .25 brass rod from Home Depot to slug some of his guns.

I am also in the process of sending some coin to Buckshot for a couple sizers and a few other items. Once you get the slugs done, keep him in mind for the rest of the project.

[runfiverun]

jt
keep me informed with what ya got goin on here
i so far am able to hit 2250 chronoed 8' from the bbl just got a shine of lead
this is with the 20" bbl
am consisering a slower powder or stepping back to the 2200 fps area
and start tweaking the load for accuracy?
my bbl is 1-10 so stay with its fun and you get a good sense
of what obsessive load development is!!

[scrapcan]

OK guys we are still moving, all be it a ta snails pace.

I sent payment and request for custom sizer dies yesterday. I have gas checks located. Have a 1 lb coffee can of the GB 129 grainer cast and waiting. Also have enlisted another shooter with a m38. Not sure how far he will go as he is having more fun than one should shooting jacketed in the old war horse.

If anyone has some gator 6.5 GC's I would like to see if we can make a trade for something.

[Nrut]

Nrut,

I used a .25 (run of the mill cold rolled rod form Home depot). Used thin tape around it in several spots.

A good friend just bought a .25 brass rod from Home Depot to slug some of his guns.

I am also in the process of sending some coin to Buckshot for a couple sizers and a few other items. Once you get the slugs done, keep him in mind for the rest of the project.

manleyjt....Thanks for the info on rod size...I found that I have a 1/4" rod....I ordered a .266 sizer from Buckshot some time ago (should be here next week) and figure I can hone it out if need be...thanks again

[scrapcan]

Still moving along on the m96 swede project. I ordered the sizers, they will get here when they get here. I would rather have it take some time and get the product I know will arrive, than have it rushed. I have a new box of 100 Norma brass to use, along with the reformed brass mentioned earlier. Iahve to pickup a box of hornady GC's as sson as I get the 50 miles south to the gunshop that has treated me right in the past (yes I could have ordred, but our local merchants need our help more now than ever).

Just making an update and keeping hte thread from getting too far down the list.

[runfiverun]

jt where ya at ?
if you are goin to trailhead guns say hi for me will ya?

[scrapcan]

I will be in Fort Collins, then on to Denver for a day. Not much for gunshops here in the Capital of Wyoming.

Where is trailhead guns located, I hav enot heard of it? Sounds lik eI need to vist though.

[runfiverun]

its a small mom & pop in rock springs nice people there
about two hundred miles from here , soda springs ID,
was hoping you were a bit west of where you are.

[scrapcan]

I do get that way once in a while. I will keep that one on the list of try to find and stop in for a bit. Thanks for the heads up.

[scrapcan]

More of an update,

custom sizer dies and case mouth expander are on their way to their new home. Once they get here we will be in business to wring the dickens out of this old rifle. I ended up with 2 boxes of hornady GC's and have cast a bunch of the latest gb bullets. I have lars lube on hand.

Then will come the powder selection. I need to go back and re read this thread to pick out the details for choosing a powder that may be on the shelf.

stay tuned for more questions from me in the very near future.

[45 2.1]

More of an update, custom sizer dies and case mouth expander are on their way to their new home. Once they get here we will be in business to wring the dickens out of this old rifle. I ended up with 2 boxes of hornady GC's and have cast a bunch of the latest gb bullets. I have lars lube on hand.

You might want to get some LBT Blue also.

[runfiverun]

i have been using jakes in the star, this winter, have been waiting for warmer
weather to see how this does .

[scrapcan]

45 2.1,

I have quite a few sticks of LBT blue soft, will that work for you? I opted for the blue soft a few years ago since I don't have a heater and not enough room to put an iron on the bench at the moment.

I have micro lube, javelina, Lars 2500+, red, BAC, and LBT Blue soft. I don't really want to do a lube test also, but I have the above on the shelf.

[45 2.1]

The LBT Blue soft will do. It is one of three lubes that will give excellent accuracy at higher velocities. It is the only one of the three that is available to you.

[scrapcan]

Dies arrived in the mail yesterday. I should have a chance this weekend to get some boolits checked, lubed, loaded, and hopefully sent downrange. Buckshot did and excellent job on the dies. He made a case mouth expander for me also. I will need to do a little work to get it intalled in an RCBS die, but that will not be too bad just make a new adjusting bolt with the correct threads. My RCBS expanders all have solid expander buttons, the one Buckshot made is for the newer RCBS expander dies and has a step like an M-die.

I will report back on my efforts this weekend.

[HORNET]

45_2.1,
OK, LBT Blue Soft is one of the 3 lubes that you say will work. What are the other 2?

[45 2.1]

45_2.1,
OK, LBT Blue Soft is one of the 3 lubes that you say will work. What are the other 2?

One is a mix from 357 Max cut quite a bit with some of my own lube to reduce viscosity. The other is out of production and isn't likely to be made as one of its components was changed and isn't available anywhere. Beartooth lube will fail earlier than LBT, but is close to being it equal. Both LBT and Beartooth lubes are supposed to be from the formula that Frank "Paco" Kelly developed called I believe Apache Blue (which i've never tried, but is supposed to be an excellent high velocity lube).

[scrapcan]

I got out with some loads last saturday. Loads were from 34.5 to 37.5 gr of H4895. It ended up being to windy to really tell what was going on. I just needed a day at the range so I shot the swede anyway ( there is a shooting house so the shooter is nice and comfortable while the weather is frightful outside).

All in all I shot 46 rounds. 6 rounds of m41 surp ammo and then 4 sets of 10. Loads were 34.5, 35.5, 36.5 and 37.5 gr H4895. It was too windy to take the chrono, almost too windy to keep the target holder up right. I had several loads in the 1.5 to 2.0 inch at 5o yds with cast, the m41 did 1.5 inches at 50 yds. One set of 5 of one load (don't have my notes iwth me so don't know which one) did not even hit my 11x17 target. Not sure what happened there. So the loads may have merit. I will get some loaded up and try to pick a better day to get to the range.

Boolits were sized to 2695 in the RCBSLAM H&I buckshot die and then pushed through the 269 custom push thru die from Buckshot. Excellent work Buckshot. I had one round debullet as I had to unchamber to allow a fellow shooter to put pasters on his target, so I think I have the overall length pretty close.

half of each load were loaded into reformed 06 brass and the other 5 were in new Norma brass. I had put a light crimp on the case and the crimp did not iron out. May have to cogitate on that a bit. Any suggestions?

No leading at all, none zilch, nada.

If you have suggestions on powder, let them be known.

Just so you guys can compare, I was shooting next to a new AR (sorry don't knwo the make) that looked and felt to be well made and well fitted with good chamber and bore. He was trying to get a reddot sighted in to same POI as the fold down rear iron, he was having fits. Finally gave up and said it was close when he got to about a 4-5 inch group. I think it was entirely due to the wind.

Anyway just an update. More to come.

[runfiverun]

jt i would skip the crimp.
4895 is what i shoot a lot of if it is bad bad bad then i change powder
but you got a lot of other stuff to try first.
get your first load chronoed. so you know where you are at. then your oal settled.

and i am sure 45 will have more here.

[scrapcan]

Project not dead, just real slow. I should get out int he next couple of weeks once again. Weather is getting better by the day, just gotta wait for a day when the wind is down to a small breeze.

[Buckshot]

Project not dead, just real slow. I should get out int he next couple of weeks once again. Weather is getting better by the day, just gotta wait for a day when the wind is down to a small breeze.

Has WC860 or WC872 been suggested yet? Maybe I did earlier, but don't recall :-). Start at 34.0grs in case you have some.

................Buckshot

[scrapcan]

Have a long weekend and only two extra things to do, hopefully will get out to put some lead down range. I have mounted a long eye relief 1x weaver scope in a b-square scout mount to try out. I am not fond of the b-square but it will have to do until Dutchman getsready to sell his low mount. I have some surplus ammo to get things sighted in and then will switch over to cast.

I will start with the standard cast loads mentioned all over the board and this thread then start to march up and see for myself what some of the rest of you have already seen. Hope I get to see results on par with some of yours.

[runfiverun]

if the weather here is an indication of what is coming your way
you will be shooting in shifts, watch the wind....

[scrapcan]

all day yesterday we had nasty weather. Tornado warnings and some touchdowns in the afternoon. We faired better than Northern Colorado (Windsor area). but it was not a fun evening. Looks like we may have a repeat today. The weekend is suposed to be better as the fronts move to the east, but that means somebody else will be getting hammered in the near future.

But I am hopeful I will get to spend a few hours shooting and then a few hours horseback. Have been trying to do both for a number of weeks but the wind and weather has not cooperated.

[scrapcan]

Well the project was slowed due to work and other hobbies. I am going to get out this weekend and try to work on the GB mould in the 6.5x55. We have not had a chance to get out for quite sometime, my uncle has 3 new handguns that he has not shot yet needless to say he is as anxious as I am. I hope to have something to report next week.

[Turk]

What happend to the rest of this thread?

[runfiverun]

it was picked up new in another section.
military rifles airc.

[Turk]

Cant find it--whats Airc. ?

[Ricochet]

Sounds like "as I re call."

[scrapcan]

I think there are a couple of 6.5x55 threads with good info. I am still workign onmy end of this thread. I have a good solid scope mount on the M96 and should have a scope better suited to Dutchman's mount in the near future, it is ocming form another member here on the board.

[dualsport]

Hey Buckshot, you out there? I saw your old post, I'd sure like to hear more about the WC860 loads in the Swede or anyone's use of that powder. I have a 8 .lb jug I'm wanting to use. Thanks ds

[Ricochet]

If you just search on WC860, you'll find a boatload of stuff posted on this board.

[dualsport]

Yup, Ricochet is right, found a bunch of info. I have quite a bit of those slow powders, wish I'd got some WC820 when it was around, I use a lot of AA#9. I'll be working on loads for my Swede to shoot in milsurp silhouette matches. This month it's Garands, then next is MN 91/30.

[scrapcan]

also go to castpics.net and look under research and data - cast members load data

good stuff there also, including Buckshots data for cast and jacketed with a few surplus powders.