9mm Leading Issue - Help!

[b2948kevin]

Ok, I have been reading post after post trying to get ideas of what I could try next to solve the leading issue that I have been experiencing. I could really use some help solving this as I have been struggling for some time with this.

Details on my setup and materials:
-First off, I am shooting a Sig Sauer P226 Stainless Elite which has a Stainless Bar-Sto 9mm conversion barrel custom fitted.
-I slugged the bore and used a micrometer to measure it. It came out to a very consistent .357. I measured multiple times with the Mic and calipers just to make sure I hadn't misread this somehow. I am very sure this is correct.
-I am casting using straight WW alloy in the Lee 356-120-TC 6 cavity mold which seems to drop about .358-.359
-I bought a .358 sizing die for my Lyman 4500 Lubrisizer and have been sizing to this, based on the slugging result.
-I am using the Jake's Moly Ceresin lube since it seems to have a good reputation.
-I am using 3.8gr Titegroup powder which is not super fast, but not super slow. It will lock the slide back on the last round about 75% of the time.

Using the above, I tried shooting 50 rounds with air cooled WW alloy and I get leading. I tried water quenched WW alloy and I still get leading. I think the sizing die is right, I think the lube should be more than adequate. I think that the powder charge is pretty middle of the road and not in the extreme one way or the other.

One more clue - the leading seems to start about in the middle of the barrel and continue through to the end. I don't seem to get leading near throat or near the beginning of the barrel.

Today after work I went and shot 50 of the water quenched bullets thinking it was going to solve the issue. I was really confused and disappointed when it didn't. What do you guys suggest? Should I go to .359? Anything else I am not thinking about?

Here are some pics of my bore.

73549735507355173552

[ku4hx]

If they'll chamber properly, try a few of the unsized .359" boolits. .002" over bore diameter may be all you need. Then there's the usual leading-issues problem solving: different lube, in your case the factory barrel, different alloy and etc. Just be sure to change only one variable at a time or you'll likely have no clue which action fixed your problem.

[pt4u2nv]

I also had issues with several 9MM's for quite awhile. I tried everything from harder alloy to softer alloy, sized from .356 to .359,at least 6 different powders from fast to slow ( working up ladder loads on each one ) 5 different boolit styles, to no avail. It got decent toward the end where I only got very slight leading but was still not happy with the results. I finally tried in desperation PB gaschecks from Pat Marlin and never saw leading after that. Cheating a little but it fixed my leading issues and I never looked back.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Since your leading begins midway down the bore and continues to the muzzle, two things come to mind:

1. Lube failure. Try some others.
2. Barrel constriction. Not likely, but possible and easy to check for. Slug part way from each end and see if the groove diameter at the muzzle is the same as just forward of the throat. You might also be able to detect one by slugging end to end, then lubing the bore and running the slug back down the bore in the same orientation, fitting the engraved slug to the same lands. Push it from the muzzle with a rod and see if the resistance is the same down the whole length of the bore.

Also, have you pulled some boolits from assembled ammo and miked them to make sure your brass is not swaging the boolits down? I'd expect leading to start closer to the throat if that were the case, but it's something to check out when setting up for 9mm anyways.

[300blk]

Titegroup is my go to powder. It does seem to burn a littlewarm and some of your problem might be there. Hp38 seems to do better but with 40+ pounds of titegroup i am continuing to use it. My glock barrel and aftermarket wolf barrel both micout at .355. I size .357 which really helps in the glock factory barrel. I load 3.6 titegroup with the lee tc and load a short OAL never had a problem with slide lock.
Actually with the tc the begining of the cone is right at the case mouth.

Another thing that has helped me was changing my lube recipe I "diluted" the mix with a little more vaseline and added some carnuba wax from car wax. A softer lube seems to work better for me than a harder lube, in your case you are getting leading in the last half of the barrel.

This suggests that you are running out of lube. I like a softer lube that flows more easily. With a real long 9mm barrel it is wholly innapropriate but in my glock 34 with thraded barrel 6.02" (or thereabouts) it helped a great deal.

Your alloy may be a bit hard. I like( for low velocity plinking) 50/50 dead soft/COWW +2% tin for fill out - water quenched.

The last thing is your expanding die. This is a common problem, seat one of your bullets after your normal case flare then pull it. Measure it. Dont be suprised if you end up with a boolit thats.354-.355.
for the lee expander in 9mm you can use a 38 sw expander to keep from swaging the boolit in the case.

Thats the best I can do on no sleep.
Hope something there helps

[GabbyM]

98% probability you are swaging down that bullet when seating in the case.
You are not adequately expanding your cases. Depth and or diameter. Likely both.
Are you sorting cases by head stamp?

[pt4u2nv]

I also had issues with several 9MM's for quite awhile. I tried everything from harder alloy to softer alloy, sized from .356 to .359,at least 6 different powders from fast to slow ( working up ladder loads on each one ) 5 different boolit styles, to no avail. It got decent toward the end where I only got very slight leading but was still not happy with the results. I finally tried in desperation PB gaschecks from Pat Marlin and never saw leading after that. Cheating a little but it fixed my leading issues and I never looked back.

I also used a lyman "M" die for expanding my cases with no reduction in dia after pulling seated boolit. Good Luck with your endeavor with the 9mm , I hope it goes better than mine did.:killingpc

[outdoorfan]

The case could be sizing those boolits down, but WDed lead didn't work for you either. Did you give the WDed lead time to harden up before loading the boolits?

Otherwise, maybe try another lube and check for constrictions in the barrel (already mentioned). BTW, if the barrel has any moderate constriction, you will feel it when you drive the slug/boolit through.

Do you have another boolit you can try?

I like the idea of trying .359 boolit.

[b2948kevin]

Wow, this is a seriously cool group. I really appreciate all of the responses and you helped me identify the things that I have not tried yet. I will make every attempt to list out the things that I am hearing, try them, and then report back to this thread until the problem is solved.

The barrel I have is a conversion barrel to convert the .40 S&W Sig down to a 9mm with just a barrel change. This means that I don't have a 9mm factory barrel to compare this one against. The Bar-Sto barrels get good reviews and I don't expect that it would be a quality issue, but we'll see I suppose.

What I am going to try right away
-Try some .359 bullets - I will likely need to work on expanding the cavities to get them to drop larger
-Double check to make sure that my expander die is expanding adequately - Now that I think of this, I think that I am not expanding enough, I will fix this right away
-Pull a bullet out of a loaded case and Mic it. Share results
-Try some different lubes - I tried a softer beeswax lube with similar poor results, but I have some Lyman Moly that I can try
-Re-slug the barrel looking for barrel constrictions - the tension was fairly consistent when I did this, so I doubt I have an issue, but I will do this anyway to double check.

What I will do if the above does not yield results
-Try new powders to
-Try new lead alloys

Last resort
-If all else fails, use PB gas checks

I thought of a couple other things that I need to provide to this thread.
-OAL of bullet
-Pics of the bullets in question
-Details of cases fired from this gun

[outdoorfan]

Yes, make absolutely sure your boolits aren't being resized when being seated into the case. I would start with that one. I doubt you have a constriction in the barrel, but who knows...

[runfiverun]

looks like it's starting about where your pressure drops off.
mark the barrel where it starts.
bump the load, and see if it moves.

[whopist]

New barrels, are new guns for that matter, some times need breaking in.

Shoot it with mild loads for 300 or 600 rounds, cleaning often. Pressures are higher in new barrels and drop down a bit as they smooth out.

Then see if you have a problem.


good luck

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to your COWWs and let the AC'd bullets age for 7 - 10 days before lubing, sizing or loading.

Change lubes. Try the Lyman Molly but a good soft lube like Lar's NRA 50/50 or BAC will do better.

.358 sizing is fine.

Bump the load to 4.2 gr TiteGroup or switch to 4 gr Bullseye.

I shoot and have shot the same 356-120-TC (and several other 9mm moulds of 115 - 125 gr) cast of COWWs + 2% tin, sized at .356 - .358, lubed with Javelina (NRA 50/50 lube) or BAC and loaded over 4 gr Bullseye in many 9mm handguns and a few subguns with excellent accuracy and no leading. Your leading is caused by a tin deficient ternary alloy, improper lube and too low a psi.

Larry Gibson

[Griz44mag]

Sounds more like a lube issue. If your lube is running out halfway down the barrel, maybe it's your bullet selection. How big is the lube groove? Only 1 groove or two?
Have you TESTED the bullet hardness and compared it to the recommended pressure for that hardness?

[fredj338]

Try water dropping & ditch the TG. IMO, it just burns too hot, melts the lube too early & you get leading. Sounds like you are going for some bunnyfart loads, try WST or SOlo.

[9.3X62AL]

My long-time recipe for 9mm squirreliness has been relatively hard alloys (92/6/2), relatively soft lubes (NRA 50/50), and sizing to THROAT diameter. I run 120-125 grain TCs and RNs to 1250 FPS in my 9mm pistols, and there is zero leading in any of them. 9mm, 40 S&W, and 10mm calibers aren't "beginner" subjects for boolit casters or reloaders--these are journeyman endeavors. Treat them like rifle calibers, and you'll be all right.

I usually run 150-300 jacketed bullets through my pistol barrels before trying them with castings.

[plainsman456]

I would try a different lube first.

The boolits seem to be hard enough with that alloy,at least to me.

[MtGun44]

NRA 50-50.

Bill

[reloader28]

I also had issues with several 9MM's for quite awhile. I tried everything from harder alloy to softer alloy, sized from .356 to .359,at least 6 different powders from fast to slow ( working up ladder loads on each one ) 5 different boolit styles, to no avail. It got decent toward the end where I only got very slight leading but was still not happy with the results. I finally tried in desperation PB gaschecks from Pat Marlin and never saw leading after that. Cheating a little but it fixed my leading issues and I never looked back.


Exactly the same for me. Didnt matter what I tried, it leaded the barrel.
PB checks are cheating, but they sure are nice. The barrel is spotless and the checks are free.:bigsmyl2:

[tomf52]

1- Do not size your bullets 2-Switch to a mid to upper end load of Bullseye 3- Polish your bore with Flitz, Simichrome or some other such polish until it looks like a mirror 4- DO NOT water drop your castings. Had a 5906 Smith that drove me insane until I did the preceeding. Now no leading at all.

[BBQJOE]

Kevin, The first concern I have is that you state your load only locks the slide back 75% of the time. This tells me two things. First your load is inadequate. If it doesn't lock it EVERY TIME there is a problem.
Second, this info tells me you are not getting a consistent load into your cases.
I would first try bringing your load up, or possibly switching powders, and address why you aren't getting 100% equal results from your case charging.
Maybe try individually weighing each charge, just to see.

[Jailer]

Pull a seated boolit before you do anything else. I'm betting your boolits are getting swaged down in size when seating them.

[khmer6]

357 for a "match" barrel sounds large. 9mm usually runs all different sizes from the factory. But I would expect barsto and lone wolf and the others to be pretty tight

[GabbyM]

Additionally.
Some brands of 9mm cases have a large amount of case wall thickness taper.
Some cases will swag a boat tail looking bevel on a deep seating 9mm bullet. Which the TC design is. While other brands of case walls will internally open up to not even rub a long expander ball. Due to vase deviation in internal capacity pressure deviation will also greatly vary between brands of differing structure. Thus if you have a batch of cases with thin walls a standard 9mm die set expander will work with TC bullets but thick wall cases will not.

If you get pressure up anywhere near full power 9mm it will obturate a bullet to fill bore. accuracy of such loads will leave some to be desired. Harder alloy will make a better expander size die out of your boolit but that's not what a boolit is. Larger boolit can be swaged a couple thousandths then still be large enough to shoot. If you are laoding a .358" boolit you may as well use a 38 special expander if it will fit for length. Most do. Expander balls in any 9mm die sets I've seen are set for round nose bullets which seat more shallow. Lymans M die is long enough for there 122 gr TC boolit and the 147 grain bullets.

Hope I didn't confuse to much.

[b2948kevin]

Hey guys, I did some work this afternoon to try to figure this out.

Firstly, I have had a ton of great replies here and I want to say thanks for your input even if it's not directly addressed right away.

Acknowledgements:
-I will increase my powder charge. I realize that these are underpowered and I will make sure to increase this for further troubleshooting. I am very certain that my powder charges are consistent as I am very consistent in checking these periodically while loading. I will be ultra consistent moving forward though until I get this figured out. I think I am just straddling the border of the power needed to lock the slide back, and other factors are weighing into this.
-I am very sure of my bore size. I slugged it several times and have measured a lot. This is also consistent with the 9mm conversion barrel that I have in my P229 dark elite now. I was surprised as well as I expected them to be smaller than .357.
-The .38 expander die is probably a really good idea regardless of anything else. I will get one on order since I know I am dealing in the .358 diameter area.
-I hadn't thought about polishing a barrel before. Is Flitz the best way to do this? Should I think about Fire Lapping?

Secondly, I think I may have identified an issue. I pulled a bullet that I had loaded into a case and measured it. I don't think I am swaging them down in the case based on the results, but I do think that the mold that I have is dropping slightly oval bullets which are undersized in places. See the video for a better idea of what I mean here. Let me know what you guys think.

Also, my OAL for these is at 1.100.


http://youtu.be/ffbuSLa88ZI

736907369173692

[Iron Mike Golf]

1. It's recommended (by casters whose day job is in the tool and die industry) to use a micrometer when measuring boolit and slug diameters.I know I can make my digital caliper change readings just by the amount of pressure my thumb exerts.

2. For polishing the bore, I have used Flitz. Now, when I firelap a barrel, I finish up with 600 grit paste for polishing. If I wanted to just polish, I firelap with 600. It's possible there are tool marks in the bore that are shaving lead. I'd expect to be able to see them.

[9.3X62AL]

357 for a "match" barrel sounds large. 9mm usually runs all different sizes from the factory. But I would expect barsto and lone wolf and the others to be pretty tight

My thoughts, too. But I pay a lot more attention to throat specs than I do to groove diameters vis-a-vis boolit diameter predication. My current 9mm pistols (4 in number) all seem well-served by .357" sizing--their throats run from about .3563" to .3568", and all are OEM barrels (2 SIG-Sauers, 1 Ruger, 1 Springfield Armory). It is VERY nice that one sizing diameter serves them all well. I use one make of brass, also (Remington) to minimize the variables as much as possible. To call the 9mm "poetic" in terms of component dimensional variance borders on the charitable.

[MtGun44]

Using calipers for this can lead to errors, they are only rated at +/-.001 accuracy.
It could have 8 digits on the display, doesn't mean it is accurate more than +/- .001

Get a micrometer that reads to .0001 to be sure of dimensions.
Available on eBay used or Encotool online. Fowler brand is good quality and
not expensive, Enco usually has them for way under $50, usually around $35.

Bill

[b2948kevin]

Thanks for the comments. To add a little clarification, I have a micrometer, and I have used it to verify my results. I used the calipers in the video because they are easier to read.

It seems that the sized boolits are a little more consistent, but probably because the sizing die will normalize and maybe even push material into areas where there was less before. Regardless, I am still getting areas of the boolit that Mic less than .358, and there's no way I could even go to .359 with this mold. Would you guys agree?

Iron Mike, I may just try firelapping with 600 to polish the bore and then finish off with some Flitz or something like that. I don't think that polishing the bore could hurt, and it will likely help with the leading from what I am reading.

Here is a picture of me using a micrometer to measure a bullet that I cast, sized and lubed, loaded into a casing, and used a kinetic bullet puller to remove. Just like in the video, there are some dimensions that measure exactly .358, but if I rotate this around, it's obvious that it's not perfectly spherical. This spot is measuring at .3565 when it should be measuring .3580 all around.

So, the big questions is: Is my next step in troubleshooting this to either get a new mold, or lap the existing mold to remove the irregularity?

73756

[Springfield]

Use softer lead, it makes up for a lot. I run the same lead in my nines and 45 autos that I run in my BP pistols. 50/50 lead/WW. tests 9-10 brinell with my LBT tester. None of my 4 nines lead,ever, Browning HP, Astra A-100, Star B and Tanfoglio Jericho. I do run 3.2 grains of 700X, Titegroup gave me more recoil with a slower speed. Just burns too fast in my opinion, didn't like it in my lower speed cowboy loads either. I also run .358 bullets using standard Dillon dies,with the LEE 125 gr RNFP bullet,which holds more lube than most. Never pulled a crimped bullet as I haven't need to, but might anyway just for GP.

[Iron Mike Golf]

You might try beagling.

[khmer6]

You might try beagling.

That might be an idea. Get them to drop larger and resize to 358. Or try some softer more filling alloy to see if its the mold or alloy.

[MtGun44]

Softer may help, use NRA 50-50 lube, and larger is the primary issue.

Bill

[b2948kevin]

Alright. My primary goal right now is to get these boolits to drop larger and more consistent than they are now. I will report back when I have this resolved.

[gefiltephish]

As others have suggested, I think that you may first try shooting "as cast", regardless if they're out of round. Smear some 50/50 into the lube grooves. Use all the same head stamp cases that are known to have the internal taper closer to the web (hope that makes sense). For me, 9mm is very picky about head stamp regarding large-for-caliper bullet diameters (especially heavy-for-caliper). Some cases "spring" back more so than others (the brass seems stiffer). I like speer, fc, win, r-p and s&b (pockets swaged). Some other cases bulge near the web when trying to expand for .359. Make up several dummies (3-4). Expand the cases so they're about .001-.0015 under bullet size and slightly deeper than the bullet base is being seated. PM Buckshot about custom m die plugs. Do not crimp at this point. Make sure it will chamber without getting stuck i.e. it will easily slide back out of the chamber. If it won't chamber, try taper crimping a little bit at a time till it just chambers ok. This is all assuming your chamber is generous enough for .359 in the first place. Pull the bullets and mic. If none of the dummies are showing signs of swaging, you are good to go. I would also suggest trying Bullseye to give the bullets a good kick in the pants on launch so the base expands to fill the barrel grooves properly. I don't have my log with me so I won't suggest a charge.

Too often I've found that one pulled dummy that measures good doesn't always tell the whole story, and could cause one to run down the wrong road when swaging in the brass was the problem all along. The extra dummies serve as confirmation of swaging or not.

I was never able to get any satisfaction with 9mm by playing with alloy/hardness. Even went so far as to have a custom mold (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-125C-D.png) made with a larger lube groove than the Lee 120. It also didn't solve the problem. However, unlike yours, both of my 9's leaded from breech to muzzle, which points to bullet size/swaging.

If all the above proves successful, then you should order a custom sizing die at .359 for your lube sizer (also from Buckshot). You may choose to beagle your mold a bit. I hope you will have found nirvana at this point. [smilie=w:

Good luck. It's not always fun. Sometime it's just frustrating as all get out.

[b2948kevin]

Thanks for the info, Gefiltephish. I will go through that process to hone in my crimping.

For a quick update, I had a little time this morning so I went to the auto parts store and grabbed some valve grinding compound. I lapped out the mold about .002 of an inch, which took a surprising amount of time to achieve, even with what I feel was a pretty course compound. I was thinking that lapping would take care of the oval shape the mold seems to have but after measuring, it looks like it just took the original dimensions and made them larger. This said, I have bigger ovals now, but they size just fine in the Lyman 4500 Lubrisizer. I can now see the shiny surface all around the bullets, which is new. Before, I would get some shiny, but it wasn't shiny all around because it wasn't being sized on the smaller dimension areas of the bullet.

So, I increased my load from 3.8gr Titegroup to 4.0gr Titegroup and loaded up 50 of them. These were air cooled WW alloy with about 30% pure PB added in. I kept the Jake's Moly Ceresin lube in there for now. They are waiting for later this afternoon when I will get out into the desert and test these out. I will post the results when I am back.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Good deal. Change one variable at a time.

As to brass, my experience is Magtech (CBC headstamp) and S&B have significantly thicker case walls. I will get a little buckle mid case and seating has a good bit more resistance.

[gefiltephish]

Yeah, CBC and HRTRS are two that come to mind that give me issues. I don't recall having trouble with s&b, except for primer pockets.

[outdoorfan]

Thanks for the info, Gefiltephish. I will go through that process to hone in my crimping.

For a quick update, I had a little time this morning so I went to the auto parts store and grabbed some valve grinding compound. I lapped out the mold about .002 of an inch, which took a surprising amount of time to achieve, even with what I feel was a pretty course compound. I was thinking that lapping would take care of the oval shape the mold seems to have but after measuring, it looks like it just took the original dimensions and made them larger. This said, I have bigger ovals now, but they size just fine in the Lyman 4500 Lubrisizer. I can now see the shiny surface all around the bullets, which is new. Before, I would get some shiny, but it wasn't shiny all around because it wasn't being sized on the smaller dimension areas of the bullet.

So, I increased my load from 3.8gr Titegroup to 4.0gr Titegroup and loaded up 50 of them. These were air cooled WW alloy with about 30% pure PB added in. I kept the Jake's Moly Ceresin lube in there for now. They are waiting for later this afternoon when I will get out into the desert and test these out. I will post the results when I am back.


I'm thinking those boolits you just casted and loaded are mighty soft yet. Are you sure they didn't get sized down at all during your loading procudure?

[b2948kevin]

Ok, so I went to shoot those bullets today. I am using the same OAL as before, but I had an issue with these loading into the chamber. The slide would not close entirely because the bullets, which are now truly .358", are just slightly too large in diameter to load into the throat of the barrel. How much should the bullet be able to protrude into the throat of the barrel freely? Looks like the throat is the same size as the bore at .357".

[gefiltephish]

I looked back up this thread a bit and see that your OAL is 1.100. The lube groove must be just barely inside the case, yes? I, and I believe most others, wind up seating this bullet closer to 1.060. However, for my LC9 I use 1.090 because that barrel has LOTS of room (slop). Do the barrel drop test again to determine the correct OAL and then work up the load. Seating .040 deeper is going to make a significant difference in pressure. Ugh, I still don't have any load data with me.

[mistermog]

I have an M&P9 which I have not been able to solve leading with this boolit either. I load 1.07 with air cooled wheel weights and either 3.7 to 4.1 gr of win 231 and white label lube 2500+. Never had a slide lock problem and they run about 1000 fps give or take some.

I'm also using the 38SW expander in the lee set (Thanks for the help jailer!) and -still- haven't been able to solve leading issues.

I've tried almost everything mentioned in this thread with the exception of digging into the barrel.

Im on your side here and if its not a LOT of leading, might just be what this boolit does like you said it might have some that are slightly oval.

[MtGun44]

With Lee 356 120 TC sized to .357 or .358 and lubed with NRA 50-50 lube, using air cooled wheel weight
alloy I get absolutely zero leading in multiple 9mms. This is doable.

Bill

[b2948kevin]

Ok, I pulled a bunch of bullets that I had loaded. I had done this before and measured to see if the cases were swaging these, but I didn't see any difference. I pulled a bunch today so that I could be certain, and sure enough, I am getting swaging in some of them. There were some boolits that were just fine and there were others that were swaging as much as .003! This supports the theory that some cases behave differently than others.

So, here is where I am at:
-I opened my mold up slightly so that I could actually get boolits to fill my .358 sizing die, I am now finding that I am not able to chamber a .358 bullet due to the throat dimension measuring in at .357, the same as the bore. I have a .357 sizing die on the way to see if I get different results with this.
-I re-slugged my bore for the 3rd time to make absolutely sure that I am doing the right thing here. The bore size that I had before was right at .3570, but measuring again, it's measuring about .3567 on my micrometer, so just a slight hair under what I originally stated.
-I have discovered that I am swaging bullets in some cartridges. I tried adjusting my expander, but I just get more belling of the case mouth. I ordered a .38spl expander die for the XL650 which I am hoping shows up soon.

So, I am at a point now where I am waiting on parts. I am going to focus on getting my boolits the right size from casting to swaging to loading and then look to other factors after that.

I really appreciate you guys sticking with me. This may be a longer journey than anticipated, but I will be updating this until resolution.

[gefiltephish]

In my last post I mentioned using your barrel for the drop test to determine the correct OAL. Have you done this? MtGun44 created a great sticky for setting up a 9mm (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm). I'd be willing to bet cash that you're going to find that you need to seat that bullet to approx 1.060.

Most expanders are generally designed for jacketed bullets and at .355/.356 may not help you with .358/.359 bullets. Also, most 38 expanders are longer than 9mm and you may find that the nose is hitting the web, or the wall taper, causing the case to buckle. Your best bet is a custom 9mm expander at .357 for .358 bullets or .358 for .359 bullets (probably ok if about .0005 tighter though). AND as you've already learned, stick to one headstamp for the time being.

<edit>The one thing that I tend to keep overlooking is that you've stated that you're only getting leading in the front half of the barrel which, as others have said, indicates a lube problem.</edit>

[b2948kevin]

Hey Gefiltphish, I think you're right, but I didn't get a chance to test this last night. I will do this and report back when I get a chance. Currently though at .358, the bullet will not feed into the barrel throat. Any driving band that protrudes past the case mouth is getting hung up and will not allow the pistol to go into battery. I have a .357 sizing die on the way and I am going to try that.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Sometimes I resort to using 2 expanders: 38 Spl to expand down to the seating depth of the boolit, followed by a 9mm expander for belling the case mouth. Seat as far out as your barrel will allow. The deeper you seat into the case, the more swaging action you get and you get it at the worst possible place - the boolit base.

Pay attention to which headstamps are swaging. Those ones have thicker walls. Sort your brass accordingly.

[gefiltephish]

Hey Gefiltphish, I think you're right, but I didn't get a chance to test this last night. I will do this and report back when I get a chance. Currently though at .358, the bullet will not feed into the barrel throat. Any driving band that protrudes past the case mouth is getting hung up and will not allow the pistol to go into battery. I have a .357 sizing die on the way and I am going to try that.
So seat with the nose taper right at the case mouth (no driving band exposed). Lots of people have to do this. As always, work up the load from there. I seriously doubt that .357 is going to be your answer, but I could be wrong.

1. Hand lube your bullets as cast. Get hold of some 50/50 if possible.
2. Expand the brass as best you can, using the thinnest wall brass you have (R-P). Use multiple expanders if necessary (lately I've resorted to using 3!). Until you can expand properly you'll just be spitting into the wind.
3. Make up at least one dummy, seating deeper until it passes the plunk test, even if it means the entire driving band is inside the case.
4. Work up loads. If you have access, Bullseye may be better suited for this than TG.

[gefiltephish]

Sometimes I resort to using 2 expanders: 38 Spl to expand down to the seating depth of the boolit, followed by a 9mm expander for belling the case mouth. ...

As I just posted to kevin, I've recently had to use 3 expanders to get what I want, starting with a custom m die plug for 38spl, then a custom 9mm PTX, finishing with a Lee 38 powder thru for a tiny flare. Sheesh! This was so I could try out .359+. I didn't make up too many of 'em that way, but I found out what I needed to know. Now I can have Buckshot make up exactly what I need.

[mistermog]

I don't want to say this but if youre using lee powder expander dies, the correct plug for this is the 38SW, not special.

If you look at a sticky jailer made, the 38 spl is much shorter and you CAN use it but its not a drop in. You have to make a bushing for it.

[MtGun44]

Seat deeper.

Bill

[b2948kevin]

Ok, I am hearing that I just need to seat these deeper. I am going to try this in just a little bit and get it to pass the "Plunk Test" :). I completely agree that I need to get the swaging issue under control I am reaching out to member Buckshot right now.

[gefiltephish]

I don't want to say this but if youre using lee powder expander dies, the correct plug for this is the 38SW, not special.

If you look at a sticky jailer made, the 38 spl is much shorter and you CAN use it but its not a drop in. You have to make a bushing for it.

I did forget to mention it, but I am using the Lee 38 s&w plug. Good catch!

[Love Life]

The cure:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/13838

Get a GC maker, or buy gas checks, and never worry about the problem again in any 9mm you shoot. I use what ever hodgepodge of alloy is in the pot at the time...


To be fair I did develope a lead free PB boolit recipe using the RCBS 115 gr RN mould, but when I went to a higher weight I didn't feel like reinventing the wheel.

[gefiltephish]

I have a Checkmaker on order from Pat Marlin :grin:

[b2948kevin]

Ok, I did some testing tonight. I could get my boolits to pass the "plunk test" and seat consistently in my barrel if I seat to 1.020".

Also, the PMC headstamps don't seem to be squeezing my bullets as bad as s&b or WCC headstamped brass.

[b2948kevin]

Thx for the info on the 38 die. I will make sure to get the correct one.

Also, there is zero taper in the Bar-Sto barrel's throat. In my XDm, there is an obvious taper that you can see.

I have some test loads ready for tomorrow. Fingers crossed that I can get some sort of result from these.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Kevin, are you saying the beginnings of the lands (near the chamber) are squared off and not "ramped" up from the groove diameter? Or are you saying there is a step at the beginning of the groove diameter?

If either of these is the case, you are likely to have leading problems no matter what you do with your ammo.

ETA: OK, looked at your photos again. It looks like the lands start out squared (looking at the third photo). That could be your problem area.

[b2948kevin]

That's correct, Iron Mike. It looks like I am not the only one reporting this either, per the thread linked below. It looks like the measurement that he took was spot on identical to what I am seeing and everything. One person responded saying that he sizes to .357 just because of this.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?55208-Barsto-barrel-and-cast-boolits

I took those boolits out today and shot them. They were sized to .358 and seated to 1.020" so that the bearing surface is fully seated into the casing. This means that they come out of the casing and slam right into a .3567" shoulder to the throat, then right into the bore of the same size. No ramping at all, and It leaded like crazy again.

My next troubleshooting steps will be:

-Get the correct expander (38SW), or the custom powder through expander for my Dillon and be absolutely sure that I am not swaging bullets with the casing
-Try some .357" sized boolits

Anyone think that having my gunsmith add a slight ramp to the throat is a good idea?

[b2948kevin]

To give you an idea of the leading I am getting, this picture is taken after only 20 rounds

74435

In an attempt to show how the throat is on this barrel, I have added some pictures.

744367443774438744397444174442

[b2948kevin]

Here are a couple of pictures of my XDm Barrel. I don't think the pics came out well, but there is an obvious taper that I can see in the throat. I can also seat .358" sized boolits with some bearing surface exposed. I can't with the Bar-sto barrel in my Sig.

7444374444

[b2948kevin]

Here is a picture of the boolit seating depth at 1.020". You can see that this is pretty low in the casing. I backed the powder back down to 3.8gr Titegroup for testing and I can tell that they are pretty close to max with the seating depth this extreme.

I would like to get my hands on some Bullseye, but I just can't find it anywhere right now.

74445

[Lights]

I would have a taper cut in the throat of that chamber Kevin.

[Lights]

Kevin I got rid of my leading issue with my 9mm. I started coating my bullets with Klass Kote epoxy paint. All my problems went away. It works just like the Hi-Tek coating that Donnie at Bayou Bullets sells.