22 LR ammo

[45-70 Chevroner]

My son lives in Prescott Valley Arizona. He went to J&G sales today and bricks of 10 boxes ie. 500 round bricks were selling for $80.00 a brick. I think this is pretty sad, considering how cheep 22's were just a short time ago. I hope every one here has a good stash.

[Ben]

I don't think that the price from Fed, Win., Rem has gone up 4 X and 5 X.

It is the retailers making " some fast $ ".

It may have gone up some, but it hasn't gone from $12.00 - $80.00.

[303Guy]

US $12 for a 500 round brick? We would pay around NZ $18.50 for a 100 round box, depending on what it is. NZ $45 for 500 round brick of CCI subsonic. But some brands are NZ $145 per 500. In our parts, subsonic is the way as we shoot with suppressors and at night.

[olafhardt]

One thing I have enjoyed about this site is there is very little talk of politics and conspiracies on the general forums and there are few comments about ammo shortages.There is a reasonable amount of talk about primers and powder. My latest figures show I am feeding revolvers for 2-3 $/box.

[Shiloh]

$5 for a box of 40 American Eagle .22's $11 for a brick of CCI Mini Mags. Currently out of stock.

Shiloh

[dakotashooter2]

I'd be supprised if the cost to manufacture .22 rounds exceeded $3-$5 a brick, even if manufacturing cost tripled it still doesn't justify an $80/brick price.

[mold maker]

When Walmart can still sell theirs at pre-shortage prices, so could the rest. Just remember who the gougers are and treat them as such when it's all over.

[Lizard333]

Manufactures haven't raised their prices. Gougers have. They are taking advantage of good people.

Btw, there's a pm in your inbox.

[Bullshop]

I have about 25 550ct bricks of Federal bulk HVHP I would sell for the current reasonable rate.

[mikeyjones]

I have about 25 550ct bricks of Federal bulk HVHP I would sell for the current reasonable rate.

What is that?

pm inbound

[Bullshop]

These are the bulk boxes with 550 loose rounds per box. I believe they are 38gn high velocity hollow points.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I just talked to my son again and he said the 22 ammo was PMC brand. I have been dealing with J&G Sales for a number of years and have been pleased with their prices on guns and ammo , but I might be changing my thinking.

[Bullshop]

Yesterdays prices are gone forever but what will tomorrows price be?

[bangerjim]

It ain't jes 22lr's!

Check out the rip-off artists on Ebay and the prices they are asking for the $30.00 Lee 6 hole molds! $80+.....! It should be illegal. But people are dumb enough to pay it, I guess. All te stores and sources I deal with are not gouging or I would not buy from them.

As stated above......remember who these thieve are! Times will be a-changin'!

bangerjim

[Bullshop]

"""Check out the rip-off artists on Ebay"""
Why do you call them that? They are offering a product at a price but not forcing anyone to buy from them. Everyone is free to research other sources and better prices. Does everyone pay the same price for a house or car? Anytime you absolutely positively have to have it now you can expect to pay a premium no matter what the product. In a market that will bare the price why sell for less? If you buy a house during a market slump then in time the market picks up would you offer the house for sale for less than market value?
It seems to me there may be a bit of sore looser attitude from folks angry with themselves for not buying when the price was lower. I feel the same way for not buying my house 10 years ago when it was worth half what I paid.
Anyway to my way of thinking a rip-off is a theft but when someone is willing to pay a price for an item there is no theft or rip-off.

[mac1911]

rip off is paying 80$ for 500 rounds and finding there is only 325 rnds in the box and the seller says tough doodoo.
both parties agree to product/price its not a rip off its a transaction....

[uscra112]

Time to repeat it: Gouging can only happen when the seller has a monopoly. Ma Bell gouged when it was a monopoly. Hospitals gouge. (Yes, hospitals often monopolize within their regions, enforced by government licensing boards, which they tend to control.) Railroads gouged in the late 1800s when they were the only transport to market for Great Plains farmers. Unions in closed-shop states gouge employers.

Nobody offering .22 ammo at $80 a brick has a monopoly on it. What does exist in this market is two kinds of fools. Type One Fools who pay those prices, and Type Two Fools who didn't stock up when prices were low, and now whine about it because they can't get ammo at a price to their liking, (due to the combination of limited supply of ammo and oversupply of Type One Fools.) No sympathy for either Type at my house.

[303Guy]

So what really causes these shortages? People shooting more or manufacturers producing less? It surely cannot be the military since they don't use all the components in short supply and last time I looked WWIII hadn't started yet.

[Bullshop]

"""" last time I looked WWIII hadn't started yet.""""
Not officially but the preliminary arrangements are well underway.

[snaketail]

I hope everyone is making note of who is gouging and remember them when that scare is over. There are a couple of places in my town that won't get my business again - and one that I will be loyal to, even if they are further from my door.

[Texantothecore]

"#18




303Guy:

"So what really causes these shortages? People shooting more or manufacturers producing less?"

People are hoarding the rounds and they are of two types:

Shooters who are trying to get some for their continuing supply problems.

People who do not shoot but who are generally active in markets in which there is a shortage. We last saw them during the Beanie Baby craze.

The government does not account for much of the supply problem perhaps 5%.

[spfd1903]

Attended a local gun show a few weeks ago. A few tables had bricks of. 22 LR which were priced at $65 or $72. I could tell the boxes were not new, so the sellers were trying to take advantage of the shortage. Around this area, none of the stores have them in stock. I was there to find some. 25 Auto for a relative who absolutely had to have some. She had not been able to find any in the LGS's so "Price was no object...". I found two boxes which I knowingly got gouged for. The relative did not bat an eye at the cost, she had 100 rounds in her hand, that was what mattered. Need can overule a lot.

[sirgknight]

I currently have Federal Champion 325/rd bricks on backorder for $13.99/ea. If the price on these goes up by the same percentage as J&G sales, the price of these bricks will be $52.00. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I doubt very seriously that it will. BUT, if it does, then the time remaining for my shooting anything .22 rimfire is very limited. All of my .22 rimfire firearms will be archived into the safe and marked as "antiques".

[Bullshop]

Key phrase --- on back order
on back order = not available
1st rule of basic business teaching = when demand exceeds supply raise the price
Simple to understand and well accepted business practice.

[mold maker]

The early morning line at the ammo counter at Walmart, shows up behind a table at the Thursday flea market. They're not batting an eye to pay a $20. booth fee to resale the WW ammo. By lunch they are sold out and gone. As long as this goes on, the gouging will continue. I don't really blame the sellers, they have found this as a method to make an easy living. I pitty the consumer who is trying to build an inventory at these prices.
My stash is over 10 years old, and still comfortable.

[montana_charlie]

Ma Bell gouged when it was a monopoly.
Ma Bell didn't gouge. Ma Bell offered residential phone service to everybody for a fair price, and their repair service was fast, efficient, and no cost.
Ma Bell's crime was that they had a monopoly, were making good money, and others wanted a piece of their pie.
Once Ma Bell was broken up, and other companies were able to intrude ... THEN the gouging began, by everybody.

[xacex]

If I started an auction right now for a brick of 525 Golden bullets at .01 where would it go? I don't set the price the market does that. I have plenty of .22LR, and the thought has crossed my mind to sell a few bricks to those who need it, or were short sighted and think they need it. If I put a 25$ price tag on them they are below market value right now, and would sell in a few minutes anywhere I put them. If I put them in a 7 day auction they go for market value. It is economics, not gouging. If you have a low IQ, and didn't see this coming should I be the one who gets bent over for something that someone thinks they should get below market value? You can get blue in the face all you want, but it comes down to the have's, and the have not's. How much is my intelligence, and foresight worth? I can tell you that if I don't count you as a family member, or close friend that I know has my back you wont be buying them for no 12$ a box! And to expect that you would is down right arrogant.

[mroliver77]

Most giggle all the way to the bank when their stock price or or other investments rise. What is the difference?
J

[45-70 Chevroner]

Well I think I opened up a can of worms. The posts were right on spot for what I expected. Mine was not a complaint but just a fact of what you can expect in times like we are having. The town here where I live is supposed to get a new Wal-Mart some time in the near future, there is a lot of controversy about how it will effect the other stores. Some say if the other stores are put out of business Wal-Mart will raise thier prices. I personally don't believe that. I have and do do quite a bit of traveling. I have been all across the lower 48 and I have driven the Alaska High twice and have seen a lot of western Canada. These trips were done with two other couples. We caravan pulling 5th wheels. I think I have shopped at at least a 100 different Wal-Marts and have found that prices are very consistant no matter the size of the town or city even in Canada The prices in Alaska at Wal-Mart and other big box stores were the same as the lower 48 exect for fresh meat and milk which were almost double. This is not an advertisment for Wal-Mart. My wife is a bargain hunter and we shop mostly sales. When Wal-Mart has 22 shells thier prices are reasonable and prudent. As for gun shops and sporting goods stores I know that they are just trying to make a living, sometimes through gouging. I think these stores may learn a hard lesson. Of course some people suffer from short memories My self included.

[jcwit]

The early morning line at the ammo counter at Walmart, shows up behind a table at the Thursday flea market. They're not batting an eye to pay a $20. booth fee to resale the WW ammo. By lunch they are sold out and gone. As long as this goes on, the gouging will continue. I don't really blame the sellers, they have found this as a method to make an easy living. I pitty the consumer who is trying to build an inventory at these prices.
My stash is over 10 years old, and still comfortable.

Wonder how all that new found wealth is being reported?

Does the make believe dealer have a business license to sell & collect sales tax.

Something to think about!

[Four-Sixty]

I am waiting for there to be a fire at the plant that makes baby formula. Once that happens, I am going to run around to all the supermarkets and drug stores and buy all the baby formula I can. Mothers "have to have it", so they'll pay my price and I'll make a tidy profit.

Just kidding guys. I'd never do that. I was just putting a different spin on the debate.

The current situation has been going on for oh, about 6-7 months now. I bet people will be so bored of this "crisis" in another 6-7 months that there will be 22LR coming out of our ears.

Unless the economy collapses sooner than expected. I do understand people's urgent sense to get their hands on ammo.

[uscra112]

Ma Bell didn't gouge. Ma Bell offered residential phone service to everybody for a fair price, and their repair service was fast, efficient, and no cost.
Ma Bell's crime was that they had a monopoly, were making good money, and others wanted a piece of their pie.
Once Ma Bell was broken up, and other companies were able to intrude ... THEN the gouging began, by everybody.

And that explains why the price of phone service plummeted and service quality skyrocketed after Ma Bell got broken up, right?

[Bullshop]

Good thing your just kidding because mothers come equipped by God with built in formula. All 9 of our children never had a bottle, NEVER or formula other than God given.

[felix]

And that explains why the price of phone service plummeted and service quality skyrocketed after Ma Bell got broken up, right?

Went down around here, Arkansas area. Price has gone up considerably as well. MaBell was perfect before the breakup, as well as IBM (sued by CDC). IBM is just now starting to recover, having been saved by their inventions all along. Their royalties are phenomenal. ... felix

[MN91311]

Why does the word "gouging" upset some people ? Do we have a politically-correct movement here who feel it is necessary to jump on someone if their choice and context of words is different from their own ?

Gouging means different things to different people. Whatever it means to me does not have to line up with your own definition. I do not think it is fair for some to narrowly define gouging as applying only to things deemed necessary and essential. Primers are not a necessity of life for us, but neither are cellphones, second and third or more cars per person, alcoholic beverages, tobacco, more than one tv, laptop pc's or the newfangled stuff, etc.

If someone goes through the trouble to drive to a local store, only to find that the item they wanted is now priced unreasonably, and no way will they pay that, is that gouging ? At the very least, I would be upset that I wasted my time, gas, and energy on that trip. Does it matter what the word is that describes my anger ?

If I do an Ebay search, looking for 4 cavity 356402 molds, and I see two listings on used good condition molds, I momentarily am happy I have found some. Then my eyes move up to the opening bid of $90 or more, and I get upset. If the opening bid was $10, the final price would be well over $100 anyway. The seller setting that very high opening bid is hoping he can get a gouge price on that item. Is this gouging, or just upsetting because the seller is looking for a sucker ?

Some call it free enterprise, letting the price adjust itself according to market conditions. If there is a disturbance in an OPEC country today, tomorrow the gas prices in my town go up. This is for gas that has been in America for some time, and at a price per gallon that is profitable. So the price increase on this gas will show a fair profit, plus the gouging $$$ for the oil companies. Some do not call this price gouging; I do.

That is the way illegal drug dealing works...the supply is down, the stuff is hard to get, so the price has gone up... ad nauseum.

There may be a split here between those people who work for a weekly paycheck (yes it is gouging), and those who buy and sell goods and services directly, small businesses, self-employed, etc. (no it is just the free marketplace at work).

If all of us took full advantage of people whenever we had the chance, and it was fully legal to do so, who would do so ? How would you describe that person ? Nobody I want to associate with. This applies to all facets of life, consumer goods, social relationships, workplace issues, etc. There is such a thing as ethics, and that is one of the things that defines a person.

[rollmyown]

If every body simply stopped buying for a month or 2 in a coordinated way (99% demand / sales dried up), the stores and gun shows would be awash with cheap ammo. I think the gougers would loose their nerve and sell at fair price or less so the weren't left holding the baby.

I know that's not a realistic solution, but if it were possible it would in my view fix the problem.

[Love Life]

gouging Use [gouj] Show IPA noun, verb, gouged, goug·ing.
noun
1. a chisel having a partly cylindrical blade with the bevel on either the concave or the convex side.
2. an act of gouging.
3. a groove or hole made by gouging.
4. an act of extortion; swindle.
5. Geology .
a. a layer of decomposed rocks or minerals found along the walls of a vein.
b. fragments of rock that have accumulated between or along the walls of a fault.

[Bullshop]

gouging Use [gouj] Show IPA noun, verb, gouged, goug·ing.
noun
1. a chisel having a partly cylindrical blade with the bevel on either the concave or the convex side.
2. an act of gouging.
3. a groove or hole made by gouging.
4. an act of extortion; swindle.
5. Geology .
a. a layer of decomposed rocks or minerals found along the walls of a vein.
b. fragments of rock that have accumulated between or along the walls of a fault.

None of those fit.

[Love Life]

But wait!!! There is more...

verb (used with object)
6. to scoop out or turn with or as if with a gouge: to gouge a channel; to gouge holes.
7. to dig or force out with or as if with a gouge: to gouge out an eye.
8. to make a gouge in: to gouge one's leg.
9. to extort from, swindle, or overcharge.


So it appears as old trusty Dictionary.com considers gouging as overcharging. Who sets the price though? Has the government set official prices for 22lr ammo? Are any dealers listing above the government set price for 22lr?

[montana_charlie]

And that explains why the price of phone service plummeted and service quality skyrocketed after Ma Bell got broken up, right?Are you comparing service and prices of today ... or those in 1982?
The price of Ma Bell remained about the same for several years (back then) but their service and repair charges began to spiral upward. If you needed your line checked for a problem they would do it promptly, but if the problem existed within the wiring in your home ... you were charged for the check and any repairs that were needed to get you back in service.

Installation of a new phone jack was no longer free, and none of those services was free from the competitors, either.

Yeah, monthly rates might ... might ... have gone lower, but they all started nickle and diming everybody to death. It took several years, but they eventually started charging money if you called Information to get a number.

Ma Bell single-handedly built the telephone network of America.
Then, to satisfy whining, liberal, constituents, Congress took it from Bell and gave most of it away to those who never put a pole in the ground.

[Bullshop]

If I set the price of my bricks of ammo at $200.00 per brick and someone swindles me down to $40.00 per brick have I been gouged?
There seems to be a wide gap in what is believed to be a fair price for 22s that are available for instant shipment.
I would like to hear some opinions on what is fair.

[Mike W1]

And that explains why the price of phone service plummeted and service quality skyrocketed after Ma Bell got broken up, right?

Having worked for Ma Bell myself, it's fairly obvious you don't know the whole scoop. Used to be one part subsidized the other parts of the system. Then along came the breakup. You got billed according to actual costs (+profits of course). The 7 operating companies were required to sell their services to vendors at reduced rates so they could still make a profit with no overhead in the structure. And I can tell you for positive one of the wonderful results of that was no longer was there a maintenance plan in place so service naturally started to decline. I can say without reservation that if we'd have provided service equivalent dependability -wise to say cell phone service we'd have been out of business quick in the early days. Don't compare what we're left with now to what it was before the breakup, you'd be dealing apples and oranges.

[GSRacer]

I just picked up 325 federal in a nitrogen filled can for $17.99+ tax from Academy Sports in Oklahoma City. They have a 1 box/day limit on any single caliber but have not jacked up the prices.

[Rooster931]

Just my 2 cents and everyone has an opinion on the matter but all the conspiracy theories about the government and the manufacturers agian in my opinion are nonsense. I was in a local cafe where I have coffee and the topic came up. One fella stated "I can't believe I cannot buy a box of .22 shells at Wal Mart, the government is buying them all". I said really in my opinion the problem is primarily good people mind you like you. Why? because when I asked him when the last time he purchased .22 ammo was and he stated "I haven't bought a box in 20 years". Multiply this man by 200,000 consumers and you have your answer.

[xacex]

There seems to be a wide gap in what is believed to be a fair price for 22s that are available for instant shipment.
I would like to hear some opinions on what is fair.

For family that is close= what you paid plus gas, for a close friend=same as family, for a friend of a friend=25$, for a stranger on the street=40$.

[Lizard333]

For family that is close= what you paid plus gas, for a close friend=same as family, for a friend of a friend=25$, for a stranger on the street=40$.

This is how I've helped those around me.

I had one guy I was shooting with, say I Owed him some 22LR, because I have so much. I told him I didn't "owe" him anything. For him, the 200$ box would a been a steal. He got nothing. He was in favor of redistributing my ammo, taking from those with ammo and giving to those thy had none.

He had me ticked off for a couple of days.

[sirgknight]

Very interesting....I have worked for WalMart and it is their policy to price "competitively". We have three super stores within 45 miles of us and each one has a completely different price on many "identical" items; i.e.; a large box of Gain detergent has three different prices in those stores. The prices are predicated on competitor's price. WalMart does have profit margins established on items where there is no competition, and that margin is somewhat lower than most other stores because they are able to buy in larger bulk quantities and WalMart definitely hurts the surrounding local businesses.




Well I think I opened up a can of worms. The posts were right on spot for what I expected. Mine was not a complaint but just a fact of what you can expect in times like we are having. The town here where I live is supposed to get a new Wal-Mart some time in the near future, there is a lot of controversy about how it will effect the other stores. Some say if the other stores are put out of business Wal-Mart will raise thier prices. I personally don't believe that. I have and do do quite a bit of traveling. I have been all across the lower 48 and I have driven the Alaska High twice and have seen a lot of western Canada. These trips were done with two other couples. We caravan pulling 5th wheels. eveI think I have shopped at at least a 100 different Wal-Marts and have found that prices are very consistant no matter the size of the town or city n in Canada The prices in Alaska at Wal-Mart and other big box stores were the same as the lower 48 exect for fresh meat and milk which were almost double. This is not an advertisment for Wal-Mart. My wife is a bargain hunter and we shop mostly sales. When Wal-Mart has 22 shells thier prices are reasonable and prudent. As for gun shops and sporting goods stores I know that they are just trying to make a living, sometimes through gouging. I think these stores may learn a hard lesson. Of course some people suffer from short memories My self included.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Very interesting....I have worked for WalMart and it is their policy to price "competitively". We have three super stores within 45 miles of us and each one has a completely different price on many "identical" items; i.e.; a large box of Gain detergent has three different prices in those stores. The prices are predicated on competitor's price. WalMart does have profit margins established on items where there is no competition, and that margin is somewhat lower than most other stores because they are able to buy in larger bulk quantities and WalMart definitely hurts the surrounding local businesses.
Agreed. When I said consistant I should have said competitive, but at the same time I don't think thier prices are out of line, especially considering thier price matching. I'm sure the new store will hurt the local business's.

[merlin101]

rip off is paying 80$ for 500 rounds and finding there is only 325 rnds in the box and the seller says tough doodoo.
both parties agree to product/price its not a rip off its a transaction....
Now that is a rip off, because of the different product NOT the price!
I hope people understand this, in this case you agreed that $80. was the going price for 500 rounds (fair or not) BUT then you got shorted and thats the rip.

I side with BULLSHOP on this. When a buyer agrees to pay a price then thats what the products worth. Kinda sux for us bargain hunters but would you perfer the Gvmt. step in and set the prices?

[merlin101]

[QUOTE=Bullshop;2259127
I would like to hear some opinions on what is fair.[/QUOTE]

:) Fair for who? The seller or the buyer? A "fair price" is really in the eye of the beholder.
I've sold some .22s some went at a profit (in trade really) and others I let go for the price marked on them ($18) and I thought all the deals were fair.
NOW if I was in biz thats a whole nother thing! I'd be looking at cost vs markup vs availibity.

[S.B.]

A few weeks back I called every ammo manufacturer I could think of(not all for sure, I was heated pretty much, don't think well in these moments) and asked where's the ammo? Federal replied the next day and said no ammo because of hording? Remington called yesterday and said the same thing with should be back to normal by end of year?
Steve

[mikeym1a]

It ain't jes 22lr's!

Check out the rip-off artists on Ebay and the prices they are asking for the $30.00 Lee 6 hole molds! $80+.....! It should be illegal. But people are dumb enough to pay it, I guess. All te stores and sources I deal with are not gouging or I would not buy from them.

As stated above......remember who these thieve are! Times will be a-changin'!

bangerjim

I challenged one of them. He was selling a used loader for a given caliber as a 'vintage' item. It wasn't even complete, and his starting price was $49.00. When I told him that newly manufactured ones were available for $39.00, he replied that such wisdom as mine could change the world. they are out to make money, and they don't care...

[hickfu]

This is how I've helped those around me.

I had one guy I was shooting with, say I Owed him some 22LR, because I have so much. I told him I didn't "owe" him anything. For him, the 200$ box would a been a steal. He got nothing. He was in favor of redistributing my ammo, taking from those with ammo and giving to those thy had none.

He had me ticked off for a couple of days.

Sounds like the Obama school of thinking to me. You have some and I dont so you owe me....
I was up in Sonora Ca. today and stopped into a little gun shop for kicks and asked the guy if he had 22lr, of course he laughed at me as I expected. I told him that at the last gun show I was at they were trying to sell them for 80.00 a brick and no one was buying... He said that he went to a gun show in Nevada and they were selling at 125.00 to 150.00 for a 500 brick...... I dont care if i only had 1 22lr left, there is no way I would pay that price for 22lr.

I understand prices go up when there is a shortage but I will never help raise the price by buying at an over inflated price.

Doc

[sirgknight]

If I set the price of my bricks of ammo at $200.00 per brick and someone swindles me down to $40.00 per brick have I been gouged?
There seems to be a wide gap in what is believed to be a fair price for 22s that are available for instant shipment.
I would like to hear some opinions on what is fair.

A fair price could be determined if the "cost" were known. Try to get an auto dealership to tell you the real and true "cost" of their products....that'll be the day! It has come to the point of either "can I afford it" or "am I willing to pay the asking price".....fair or not!

[bgokk]

Ain't this hoss dead yet?

[grouch]

What grade of .22LR was it? There's an awful difference between Fed. American Eagle and Eley Tenex or RWS R50 - at the target as well as the cash register.
Grouch

[uscra112]

Ain't this hoss dead yet?

Ain't gonna die until the Obama voters leave the building.

[Silverboolit]

Justs got back from WallyWorld...Rem golden 525 pack...21.99..Have to be there before 9:00 am or all gone

[JIMinPHX]

AT a gun show the other day, a bunch of guys were trying to get $75 per brick of 500 .22lr. I didn't see any selling. 2 guys were asking $50/brick. I didn't see the ammo flying off of their tables either. I guess that I'm not the only one that refuses to feed the hysteria.

[LittleBill]

I am new to casting, but I am not new to life. I have a few comments to offer up here. It is not gouging if you are not forced to buy a product. The owner of ANY product or service should have the right to place a value on that product or service. The prospective customer has the right to buy or walk away. It is that simple. While I hold ammunition near and dear to my heart, it is not something vital to everyday life.

Then again, I looked ahead - years ago. :wink: I bought bricks of .22 ammo when it was still on sale at Cabela's for $9.00. I still bought bricks when it was all the way up to $18.00 on sale. Buy two. Shoot one. Buy two. Shoot one. I saved brass and stocked up on lead when I did not have the tools or knowledge to cast. I am casting now and shooting center fire guns for about the same price that I paid for .22 LR ammo years ago. Am I a hoarder because of my foresight? I am for those who don't have any. It is the ant and the grasshopper. Which one are you?

For all of you who drink coffee, I read an article the other day that described how the coffee crop is going to experience a 50% failure in coming months. Guess what I am buying extra of every time I walk into the grocery store? 8-) In the not too distant future, I will be on the boards reading about people squawking about the lack of coffee while I sip my coffee. :coffeecom

ETA: I almost forgot. Lee six cavity mold handles regularly sell for about $16.00. I bought a set off EBay for twice the price because I wanted them. I knew it was twice the price, but no one who sold them at the regular price had them, and had no idea when they were coming in. Was I gouged? Some would say yes. I was not thrilled, but I paid the price, and you know what? I have the handles I wanted, and in the time frame in which I wanted them.

[jcwit]

I am new to casting, but I am not new to life. I have a few comments to offer up here. It is not gouging if you are not forced to buy a product. The owner of ANY product or service should have the right to place a value on that product or service. The prospective customer has the right to buy or walk away. It is that simple. While I hold ammunition near and dear to my heart, it is not something vital to everyday life.

Then again, I looked ahead - years ago. :wink: I bought bricks of .22 ammo when it was still on sale at Cabela's for $9.00. I still bought bricks when it was all the way up to $18.00 on sale. Buy two. Shoot one. Buy two. Shoot one. I saved brass and stocked up on lead when I did not have the tools or knowledge to cast. I am casting now and shooting center fire guns for about the same price that I paid for .22 LR ammo years ago. Am I a hoarder because of my foresight? I am for those who don't have any. It is the ant and the grasshopper. Which one are you?



So for the new shooter be he/her 8 years old or 16 years just getting into the shooting sports being shut out because of the gougers, YES THE GOUGERS, play acting as a bona fide business buying their supplies at retail and at retail outlets then marking up a $25.00 brick of ammo to $80 or $100 bucks is an asset to our community of sportsman.

And its all the new shooter's fault for not planning ahead.

Your logic is unbelievable, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Which one am I? I happen to be the ant who also sees the problem. More than likely I have more .22's and reloading components than I'll ever use up in my lifetime.

I should it not all about the children either, suppose the new shooter happens to be 25 or 30 years?

[LittleBill]

So for the new shooter be he/her 8 years old or 16 years just getting into the shooting sports being shut out because of the gougers, YES THE GOUGERS, play acting lbona fidenafide business buying their supplies at retail and at retail outlets then marking up a $25.00 brick of ammo to $80 or $100 bucks is an asset to our community of sportsman.

And its all the new shooter's fault for not planning ahead.

Yourunbelievableblieveable, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Which one am I? I happen to be the ant who also sees the problem. More than likely I have more .22's and reloading components than I'll ever use up in my lifetime.

I never wrote what you accuse me of. Economics is like gravity. You can't get away from it, and your own view does not change the reality of the situation. Regardless of the price, if one is not forced to buy a product, it is not gouging. I don't really care if you like that concept or not, it is the truth. How would you like it if someone came to you and told you that you could only charge so much for an item you wanted to sell?

I am not saying there are no unscrupulous people out there trying to make a buck. But, a lot of people are accused of gouging when there is no real gouging going on. It comes down to whining because people can't get what they want for the price they want. I started shooting in 1970. Should I have complained then that I was not able to purchase ammo for the same price people were paying in 1960? 1950? How about your own wages? How will you react when someone comes in and tells you that you aren't worth what you are getting, and you need to take less? Will you suck it up and take less, or will you look for a new job? The answer depends on how important it is to you. I wrote in my post I paid double for a set of handles and did not complain. What part don't you get?

And, if you have that much, why aren't you sharing? I am, and for pre panic prices. I didn't write that before, because it really isn't germane to the discussion. But since I am such a swell guy, I am putting it in now. I have been selling off some of what I don't need for what I paid for it years ago, when I come across people who need or want some. How about you?

[jcwit]

And, if you have that much, why aren't you sharing? I am, and for pre panic prices. I didn't write that before, because it really isn't germane to the discussion. But since I am such a swell guy, I am putting it in now. I have been selling off some of what I don't need for what I paid for it years ago, when I come across people who need or want some. How about you?

Believe me I have, both in ammo and bucks in the triple digits. At this point our local jr. clubs have gotten buys directly from Federal ammo at $16.50 bucks a brick and we should be good to go for 2 years now. So that issue no longer is a problem but it does sho what the manufactures are letting ammo out the door for, $16.50 a brick.

Do not accuse me of not sharing, I have, and not at pre-panic prices, I gave mine at no cost, did you?

Regarding as to how much I have? You have no idea.

[jcwit]

I never wrote what you accuse me of.

Never accused you of anything.

[jcwit]

I am not saying there are no unscrupulous people out there trying to make a buck. But, a lot of people are accused of gouging when there is no real gouging going on. It comes down to whining because people can't get what they want for the price they want. I started shooting in 1970. Should I have complained then that I was not able to purchase ammo for the same price people were paying in 1960? 1950? How about your own wages? How will you react when someone comes in and tells you that you aren't worth what you are getting, and you need to take less? Will you suck it up and take less, or will you look for a new job? The answer depends on how important it is to you. I wrote in my post I paid double for a set of handles and did not complain. What part don't you get?


No worries about wages, I'm 69 years young, been retired since the age of 56. Not looking or in need of a job.

I'm not whining about what I can't get, I'm concerned about others and our sport in general.

Unscrupulous and folks gouging are the same with only a different name.

[finishman2000]

No worries about wages, I'm 69 years young, been retired since the age of 56. Not looking or in need of a job.

I'm not whining about what I can't get, I'm concerned about others and our sport in general.

Unscrupulous and folks gouging are the same with only a different name.

The have nots or the wish it was like it used to be guys keep calling names hoping that prices fall. good luck.
I bought when cheap because I remember every time the s hit the fan and you couldn't get this or that. I learned and some didn't. If you have to have it...pay the price. if you can't sorry, you should have planned better.

[jcwit]

The have nots or the wish it was like it used to be guys keep calling names hoping that prices fall. good luck.
I bought when cheap because I remember every time the s hit the fan and you couldn't get this or that. I learned and some didn't. If you have to have it...pay the price. if you can't sorry, you should have planned better.

Calling a seller who is overpricing what he is, is not calling them a name, just calling them what they are, and they are not an asset to our sport, to think otherwise is pure folly.


From my post earlier on this thread.

So for the new shooter be he/her 8 years old or 16 years just getting into the shooting sports being shut out because of the gougers, YES THE GOUGERS, play acting as a bona fide business buying their supplies at retail and at retail outlets then marking up a $25.00 brick of ammo to $80 or $100 bucks is an asset to our community of sportsman.

And its all the new shooter's fault for not planning ahead.



Not everyone can PLAN AHEAD.

[uscra112]

Economics is like gravity. You can't get away from it, and your own view does not change the reality of the situation.

Exceedingly well put. But we have always with us, like the Biblical poor, a portion of the population that wants what it wants and no amount of explanation will convince them that Obama can't fix it for them.

[jcwit]

Exceedingly well put. But we have always with us, like the Biblical poor, a portion of the population that wants what it wants and no amount of explanation will convince them that Obama can't fix it for them.

I only wish for the day when this term is over and Obama is no longer there to "fix" or attempt to "fix" anything. I hope this nation can survive the 3 1/2 years to get to that point. And I pray the electorate is smart enough to correct the problems. Just maybe the future change will be for the better.

As some of the posters of George Bush say, "Miss Me Yet"!

[finishman2000]

then not everyone can shoot NOW.


Calling a seller who is overpricing what he is, is not calling them a name, just calling them what they are, and they are not an asset to our sport, to think otherwise is pure folly.


From my post earlier on this thread.

So for the new shooter be he/her 8 years old or 16 years just getting into the shooting sports being shut out because of the gougers, YES THE GOUGERS, play acting as a bona fide business buying their supplies at retail and at retail outlets then marking up a $25.00 brick of ammo to $80 or $100 bucks is an asset to our community of sportsman.

And its all the new shooter's fault for not planning ahead.



Not everyone can PLAN AHEAD.

[jcwit]

then not everyone can shoot NOW.

Correct, and all because of the A ho's who are play acting as retailers. Seriously wonder if in fact they have the retail licenses to operate a retail business, and the License to collect sales taxes and pay Fed. Social Security taxes.

Take a few minutes and read the NRA's position on this, American Rifleman. May issue, page 8, short article by Mark Keefe, IV.

He call them what they are, gougers, plain and simple, not rocket science.

[sirgknight]

guess we should all get about 100 55-gal drums and start filling them with gasoline. we know it won't stay at $3.XX a gallon.....[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[Love Life]

This isn't where I left my keys...

[Edcknives]

Being insightful enough to buy ahead of time is not the issue. The unscrupulous opportunists (same people every day) who are at the doors every morning when the doors open and run to the shelves, this quoted by the store employees at Dick's, Cabelas and Walmart, are the ones buying and then reselling literally that night or the days following for the prices that are gouging plain and simple. I doubt they have a job and are most likely on unemployment and our tax dollars are subsidizing these ingrates of society who are creating an immediate difficult market for people who just want to enjoy shooting and teaching that to others and who are working and don't have time to camp out every day. It is capitalism but not the kind I personally like to see. As stated above I have been purchasing more than I have been using over the years also and am pretty set for many, many years to come. Doesn't change the fact that these opportunist gougers are a canker on the *** of this issue. Make them get jobs and wait in line like the rest of the working population which unfortunately is diminishing more and more.

[jcwit]

Being insightful enough to buy ahead of time is not the issue. The unscrupulous opportunists (same people every day) who are at the doors every morning when the doors open and run to the shelves, this quoted by the store employees at Dick's, Cabelas and Walmart, are the ones buying and then reselling literally that night or the days following for the prices that are gouging plain and simple. I doubt they have a job and are most likely on unemployment and our tax dollars are subsidizing these ingrates of society who are creating an immediate difficult market for people who just want to enjoy shooting and teaching that to others and who are working and don't have time to camp out every day. It is capitalism but not the kind I personally like to see. As stated above I have been purchasing more than I have been using over the years also and am pretty set for many, many years to come. Doesn't change the fact that these opportunist gougers are a canker on the *** of this issue. Make them get jobs and wait in line like the rest of the working population which unfortunately is diminishing more and more.

Precisely, absolutely, positively, right on.

[jcwit]

guess we should all get about 100 55-gal drums and start filling them with gasoline. we know it won't stay at $3.XX a gallon.....[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

Probably, we still have stations at $4.25 a gal. here.

[Nortex]

I too am curious as to the background (particulary socio-economic) of these price-gougers and their little minion-rats that empty the shelves.

My gut tells me that many are on federal/state aid: unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc. Our gov't dollars at work again.

[Randy C]

My wife went to WalMart and I called her and asked her to look for 22lr BY GOD she bought a box of Winchester 555 rounds for 25$ I called Dale in town he went looking 1 hr. later they were gone. I only had a hand full left, the last box lasted ten years, that's how many 3 legged varmints we have had in 10 years. This is the truth my wife would shoot something and the next time you seen them, they were hoping on 3 legs, well for years I gave her -ell go figure the sights were of on the 22. she used my 22 and she is dangerous, she shoots better then I do. OW better then every one else.

[mold maker]

If your savings are gone and unemployment is all you have to feed your family, It isn't gouging to make a few extra bucks. I've been there, and hunger makes a fellow do things he wouldn't normally do, especially when it's your youngins that are hungry.
Quit your bellyaching, and either pay the price, or leave them for others. 22LR is not a staple of life.

[jcwit]

If your savings are gone and unemployment is all you have to feed your family, It isn't gouging to make a few extra bucks. I've been there, and hunger makes a fellow do things he wouldn't normally do, especially when it's your youngins that are hungry.
Quit your bellyaching, and either pay the price, or leave them for others. 22LR is not a staple of life.

I have been there also, to the point I didn't have enough to buy a gal. of milk. I pulled myself out and did it all legally. Did not need to gouge anyone either. Sold all our products at prices comparable to other retail outlets.

Also did not apply for welfare or food stamps either.

I'll continue to voice my opinion, call it bellyaching if you wish.

Read the article I mentioned in post 72.

BTW making "a few extra bucks" by marking a product up 300% over std. retail isn't "a few extra bucks".

[Nortex]

If your savings are gone and unemployment is all you have to feed your family, It isn't gouging to make a few extra bucks. I've been there, and hunger makes a fellow do things he wouldn't normally do, especially when it's your youngins that are hungry.
Quit your bellyaching, and either pay the price, or leave them for others. 22LR is not a staple of life.I notice in your profile a commentary about losing your job as a mold maker after 39.5 years due to Chinese Imports. So how do you feel feel about that part of the free market, being undercut by goods manufactured with little concern for the environment, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, etc? Careful, don't show any belly-aching.

BTW-22LR is not a staple of life and unemployment checks along with other subsidies should not be either. Yep, hunger makes men do all sorts of things....cross picket lines, price gouge ammo...doesn't make it right.

Oh yeah, and the ammo prices ain't really affecting me...got plenty of 22LR, reload my other stuff...just hate to see my friends tell their kids they can't go out and plink with their 10/22 cuz they're out of ammo (and yes, I have given some in support of these noble father-son pursuits).

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Time to repeat it: Gouging can only happen when the seller has a monopoly. Ma Bell gouged when it was a monopoly. Hospitals gouge. (Yes, hospitals often monopolize within their regions, enforced by government licensing boards, which they tend to control.) Railroads gouged in the late 1800s when they were the only transport to market for Great Plains farmers. Unions in closed-shop states gouge employers.

Nobody offering .22 ammo at $80 a brick has a monopoly on it. What does exist in this market is two kinds of fools. Type One Fools who pay those prices, and Type Two Fools who didn't stock up when prices were low, and now whine about it because they can't get ammo at a price to their liking, (due to the combination of limited supply of ammo and oversupply of Type One Fools.) No sympathy for either Type at my house.

I quote just to reinforce your analysis. Perhaps it will slow the whining, or encourage the low information shooters to pay more attention to where their votes go.

BvT

[uscra112]

Thanks BvT. Sometimes I think I'm a voice in the wilderness.

[Nortex]

Gouging can only happen when the seller has a monopoly.Not true. Just need a sharp decrease in supply and/or spike in demand. Think of the classic post-hurricane scenario....more than a few gas stations can try to gouge, none of them have a strict monopoly.

[VintageRifle]

Grafs called me today. My 3 boxes of federal auto match 22lr finally came in. Looks like they were just filling backorders as I didn't see it come online for sale. Have what I need now to teach my daughter to shoot. Was just over $55 shipped for 975 rounds.

I had the ammo on backorder for just over 31 days.

[b2948kevin]

Get ready for ammo to come back into stock at a dealer near you. I don't know what the fuss is all about. We've all been through this before and we all know that inventory will catch up eventually.

[Nickle]

Time to repeat it: Gouging can only happen when the seller has a monopoly. Ma Bell gouged when it was a monopoly. Hospitals gouge. (Yes, hospitals often monopolize within their regions, enforced by government licensing boards, which they tend to control.) Railroads gouged in the late 1800s when they were the only transport to market for Great Plains farmers. Unions in closed-shop states gouge employers.

Nobody offering .22 ammo at $80 a brick has a monopoly on it. What does exist in this market is two kinds of fools. Type One Fools who pay those prices, and Type Two Fools who didn't stock up when prices were low, and now whine about it because they can't get ammo at a price to their liking, (due to the combination of limited supply of ammo and oversupply of Type One Fools.) No sympathy for either Type at my house.

Amen. Either buy it at those prices and shut up or don't buy it and shut up. Crabbing about is NOT going to fix anything. Try educating shooters to see what they're doing to themselves.

And ANYBODY dumb enough to pay the exorbitant bid prices has just gotten what they deserve. It's the bidder that sets the price, they bid it up. When nobody bids on something, it doesn't sell, and the seller can either reduce his starting price, or rebid it at the same price. After a while, he will drop the price if it doesn't sell. That's how it works. Now, I don't like gougers either, and like was said, I keep track of the ones that gouge, and I don't do business with them.

It's their loss. You see, I'm not just a buyer, I'm a seller too. I make some stuff that's damned near a monopoly. I don't gouge. I do make a reasonable profit.

[dudel]

Thanks BvT. Sometimes I think I'm a voice in the wilderness.

You are not alone. A willing seller and a willing buyer. Who else needs to get involved in the transaction. If I were to offer 10 rounds of 22lr at $1000, I would have very few (hopefully) people willing to pay that price. But for the person willing to pay that price (with no one forcing them), where's the gouging?

When you have a seller and a buyer agree on a price, there's no gouging. If you don't agree, you don't buy, so still no gouging took place.

I *think* I have enough 22lr to see me through the current situation. It's available here at about $7 / 100 for CCI low end stuff. Still a bit high for me, so I pass. There is bulk pack Remington GB for $24, but it goes real fast. I'm patient. I leave some for others when I find it. I share it with friends who didn't prepare as well.

When the current crisis is over, I'll probably stock it a little higher and deeper. Ant and grasshopper are a great lesson for those who learn.

[jcwit]

Problem being is it goes much deeper than the scratched surface presented above. Many just don't get it, but not getting it seems to be the way things go in todays world. Its another reason we are in the shape we are in politically.

[Love Life]

What don't people get jcwit?

This subject has been hashed over a bazillion times since the crisis started. Some people were well stocked, and either profited nicely or were able to ride this one out in comfort.

Some people were not stocked and suffered the consequences of their lack of preparedness. Cutting back 4 fastfood trips a month for a year, and diverting that money to components, ammo, rainbow stickers, or whatever would have had them set for this crisis.

What you, and others have, is a feeling of moral rightousness. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try to insert it into an issue where it does not belong. Talking soley in supply and demand there is no gouging of ammo and components.

Talking in moral rightousness you are free to say that people are gouging, are evil, and probably eat children.

People come and cry about the "Evil gouger guy" ripping people off. Oh the horror!!!!! They come and cry about "the children can't get 22 lr ammo" because of the evil gouger guy.

I will admit there is a SMALL percentage of people who are genuinely concerned about others not being able to get some.

The reality is:
1. People are mad they can't build up their own huge stash at these prices
2. People are mad they can't buy cheap and sell it high

They just don't have the sack to say as much. They complain about the prices and on occasion I have seen people claim they can't shoot as much because of the cost. Well, how much does your internet connection cost you a month? Cell phone? Fast food? Spontaneous purchase? Cut some of those and divert funds to your shooting hobby. Tough **** for people who did not see this coming or jumped into the shooting and reloading game to late. Stock up when the supply catches back up and go on about your merry way.

Keep the two separated, live a stress free life, and go have a Coke.

[jcwit]

Yup, like I said, some just don't get it.

Neh, coke isn't good for me, I'll have a cup of java.

Internet connection, High Speed BTW $35.00 a month

Cell Phone, $7.00 a month

Fast Food, Maybe, just maybe $20.00 a month, seldom eat fast food.

Ammo? Haven't needed to buy any for the last couple of years.

YUP, Just tough XXXX for the youngsters coming into the shooting sports.

Now let it be clear, auctions are an entirely different story than the gougers and scalpers at the local flea market.

[Love Life]

You never explained what it is people don't get jcwit. Please do, line by line, in *** bleeding detail.

So over the course of months you have now aquiesced that auctions where people pay redonk prices is no long gouging. Thank you for that...

[jcwit]

See no need to go over what I've explained over the course of past months, if you don't get it by now, you never will.

Nuff said.

Never said, to my recollection, that auctions were the same as wannabe retailers who use retail outlets as their main source of supply.

But if you wish to do a search and prove me wrong, have at it, what it'll accomplish I have no idea.

[jcwit]

Tough **** for people who did not see this coming or jumped into the shooting and reloading game to late.

Explain how the above statement applies to the new shooter who is 12 years was to late?

[jcwit]

I will admit there is a SMALL percentage of people who are genuinely concerned about others not being able to get some.


YUP! That's one of my main concerns.

[dudel]

Explain how the above statement applies to the new shooter who is 12 years was to late?

Last I checked, there's a good supply of pellets, BBs, airsoft, and shot shells. If someone REALLY wanted to shoot, I suspect they could. If it just HAD TO BE 22LR, then they might need to learn some flexibility. If the 22LR is your first gun, you can/could learn a lot (and save a lot of dollars) by starting with a nice Gamo pellet gun.

There are always options. If you look for them.

However, there are those who want to play a victim card. I don't do victim very well.

[jcwit]

Last I checked, there's a good supply of pellets, BBs, airsoft, and shot shells. If someone REALLY wanted to shoot, I suspect they could. If it just HAD TO BE 22LR, then they might need to learn some flexibility. If the 22LR is your first gun, you can/could learn a lot (and save a lot of dollars) by starting with a nice Gamo pellet gun.

There are always options. If you look for them.

However, there are those who want to play a victim card. I don't do victim very well.

YUP! The 10 year old kid at summer camp has loads of options. Or the youngster involved in Jr. League where the League supplies the firearms.

Also looks as if you aren't looking at the whole picture either.

[mold maker]

I notice in your profile a commentary about losing your job as a mold maker after 39.5 years due to Chinese Imports. So how do you feel feel about that part of the free market, being undercut by goods manufactured with little concern for the environment, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, etc? Careful, don't show any belly-aching.

BTW-22LR is not a staple of life and unemployment checks along with other subsidies should not be either. Yep, hunger makes men do all sorts of things....cross picket lines, price gouge ammo...doesn't make it right.

Oh yeah, and the ammo prices ain't really affecting me...got plenty of 22LR, reload my other stuff...just hate to see my friends tell their kids they can't go out and plink with their 10/22 cuz they're out of ammo (and yes, I have given some in support of these noble father-son pursuits).


Yep, at the time our livelihoods disappeared, I was scared, confused, and dependent on unemployment, to keep the bills paid and buy gas to look for work. At the time the fast food places, could require college degrees, for burger flippers, and have a tall stack of applications. For every job, there were hundreds looking.
Not sour grapes, just facts.
I did whatever I had to, to survive. Would I have profited at someone elses expense? He!! yes. I had truck payments (only vehicle) to make, groceries to buy, utilities, and was caring for an elderly parent, and a Son and his 2 children. There were 2 homes to maintain.
Am I ashamed of how I survived. Nope, and I'd do it again if necessary. I wasn't buying ammo or components. I wasn't shooting, and I wasn't bellyaching about the $4. gas my truck burned looking for a non existent job. That was all part of what had to be done.
Again, 22LR ammo isn't a necessity to survive. It's a luxury unless you're depending on it to bring in food for the table. All luxuries are expensive, if you can't afford the going price.
If you want it bad enough to pay the price, have at it. If not, leave it be. Nobody is forcing you to pay the inflated price. However, all the discussion about it is fueling the problem. If we all just ignore it, it will eventually subside, although it might be like everything else, a bit higher.

[dudel]

YUP! The 10 year old kid at summer camp has loads of options. Or the youngster involved in Jr. League where the League supplies the firearms.

Also looks as if you aren't looking at the whole picture either.

Yep, they have options. But if all you have is a hammer; then everything looks like a nail.

[jcwit]

Yep, they have options. But if all you have is a hammer; then everything looks like a nail.

So what are the options to the 10 year old at summer camp?

[williamwaco]

Thank God for the Ignore feature.

[jcwit]

If we all just ignore it, it will eventually subside, although it might be like everything else, a bit higher.

Keeping ones head buried in the sand is the way to go. It the solution to most problems, or one could try drinking the problems away.

[Love Life]

That 10 year old better be out there cutting grass, raking leaves, asking for chores to get paid so he can buy ammo. I did when I was a kid and it's not hard.

If he/she still can't afford to shoot or find ammo then they need to put the shooting hobby aside and find something else productive to do.

If the 10 year old is counting on the camp to GIVE him the ammo then the 10 year old, and the hopefully involved parents, needs to ask the camp why they did not have good supply on stock when it was known that shooting was part of the camp curriculum/experience.

I have no time for excuses for other people's actions and inactions. Save the "oh the children!!" line for MAIG.

[jcwit]

Summer camps and 4-H groups seldom plan ahead because of political trends in the country. Plus monies aren't available in advance for the purchases.

Again you also missed the whole picture.

A little compassion goes a long way, but then I do take note of the "No Excuse" comment.

[jcwit]

Thank God for the Ignore feature.

Yes it is a blessing.

[Love Life]

Summer camps and 4-H groups seldom plan ahead because of political trends in the country. Plus monies aren't available in advance for the purchases.

That needs to change.

Again you also missed the whole picture.

Don’t care

A little compassion goes a long way, but then I do take note of the "No Excuse" comment.

Too much compassion breeds dependence…kind of like welfare…which leads people to wanting everybody to have their fair share…which leads to mundane arguments about what is and is not gouging of a WANT and not a need…


Thank God for the Ignore feature.

Yes it is a blessing.

Especially if running away from confrontation and different beliefs is your forte…

[Springfield]

My main problem with the expensive .22 ammo is there are programs that need this ammo to run their programs to teach kids to shoot. If these program go away this year they may not ever come back. We need more than ever to get and keep younger shooters if we expect them to keep our american shooting traditions alive. If they go to soccer camp or robotics camp or LEGO camp this summer instead of shooting then we may lose them, all because SOME people feel it is their right to charge whatever they can because they got to Wal-Mart first and bought up all the ammo. I have 2 boxes of 500 .22 left, and when it is gone I will just have to switch my kids over to light 38 special loads. I was planning on them starting to compete in our cowboy matches soon but if I can't get ammo I may not be able to do this as I don't have a .38 lever action, and frankly I can't afford to buy them one right now. I do have friends who would be willing to lend me theirs but I don't like to borrow weapons. I thought I had bought enough ammo in January when I bought 4- 550 round boxes, but since I don't have a crystal ball(none of us do) I didn't anticipate the extent of the hoarding/shortage. Hopefully .22 will become available before my last 2 boxes run out. Just because it is legal to buy low and sell high at the expense of others doesn't make it right. I know this is a subjective judgement call but I believe what I believe, and will remember those who tried to take advantage of me in these difficult times, and avoid buying from them in the future, as that is MY right. May not make any difference in the long run but doing the right thing when no one notices is the true test of a persons moral beliefs.

[rintinglen]

And that explains why the price of phone service plummeted and service quality skyrocketed after Ma Bell got broken up, right?

That was not my experience.
My basic service quickly doubled in price, I no longer had free repair service to the phone. Long distance rates did tumble as other "competitors" entered the market when ole Jimmy nationalized the phone company's assets and forced them to open their wires to the competitors. Service Quality Sky rocketed? Not in my recollection, but as they say, YMMV. I will say that the analog dial phone that my brother still uses was installed nearly 40 years ago--by Ma Bell.

[mdi]

I'm not defending these gun shops that are overcharging for ammo now. But they're gonna have full shelves soon, when supplies get back to normal, and nobody buying...

[jcwit]

My main problem with the expensive .22 ammo is there are programs that need this ammo to run their programs to teach kids to shoot. If these program go away this year they may not ever come back. We need more than ever to get and keep younger shooters if we expect them to keep our american shooting traditions alive. If they go to soccer camp or robotics camp or LEGO camp this summer instead of shooting then we may lose them, all because SOME people feel it is their right to charge whatever they can because they got to Wal-Mart first and bought up all the ammo. I have 2 boxes of 500 .22 left, and when it is gone I will just have to switch my kids over to light 38 special loads. I was planning on them starting to compete in our cowboy matches soon but if I can't get ammo I may not be able to do this as I don't have a .38 lever action, and frankly I can't afford to buy them one right now. I do have friends who would be willing to lend me theirs but I don't like to borrow weapons. I thought I had bought enough ammo in January when I bought 4- 550 round boxes, but since I don't have a crystal ball(none of us do) I didn't anticipate the extent of the hoarding/shortage. Hopefully .22 will become available before my last 2 boxes run out. Just because it is legal to buy low and sell high at the expense of others doesn't make it right. I know this is a subjective judgement call but I believe what I believe, and will remember those who tried to take advantage of me in these difficult times, and avoid buying from them in the future, as that is MY right. May not make any difference in the long run but doing the right thing when no one notices is the true test of a persons moral beliefs.

Absolutely

[jcwit]

Especially if running away from confrontation and different beliefs is your forte…

Obviously not one of my virtues.

[Nickle]

Something all the folks that are crabbing about the prices miss is so very simple.

The fix for their complaint is far worse than the supposed problem itself.

See, the simple fix is for the gov't to either dictate the max price for ammo.Of course, that's going to hit much more than just 22 ammo. Going to affect everything.

Or, they can simply also go around and confiscate everybody's supply of ammo, then redistribute it out to those that have a need for it (not just a want for it).

Now, here's the rub with all that. First off, there's that pesky Constitution and the Bill of Rights in the way, but we can easily see that hasn't stopped the current administration much. But, this time I think it would at least slow them down. Second, they don't want us to have the means to stop their Marxist agenda anyways, so I think they would just omit the redistribution part and lie about that fact. Of course, they wouldn't forget to give gov't agencies what they need.

And, lastly, there was a major country that had a system like this, but it only lasted about 75 years. That would be the country of Stalin and Lenin.

If you don't like the answers, please feel free to a country that does this stuff. Just don't vote for another crooked politician in this country. We've got plenty already, and besides, we do have the best politicians "money will buy". I say that because it seems American politicians are easily bought.

[jcwit]

Something all the folks that are crabbing about the prices miss is so very simple.

The fix for their complaint is far worse than the supposed problem itself.

See, the simple fix is for the gov't to either dictate the max price for ammo.Of course, that's going to hit much more than just 22 ammo. Going to affect everything.

Or, they can simply also go around and confiscate everybody's supply of ammo, then redistribute it out to those that have a need for it (not just a want for it).

Now, here's the rub with all that. First off, there's that pesky Constitution and the Bill of Rights in the way, but we can easily see that hasn't stopped the current administration much. But, this time I think it would at least slow them down. Second, they don't want us to have the means to stop their Marxist agenda anyways, so I think they would just omit the redistribution part and lie about that fact. Of course, they wouldn't forget to give gov't agencies what they need.

And, lastly, there was a major country that had a system like this, but it only lasted about 75 years. That would be the country of Stalin and Lenin.

If you don't like the answers, please feel free to a country that does this stuff. Just don't vote for another crooked politician in this country. We've got plenty already, and besides, we do have the best politicians "money will buy". I say that because it seems American politicians are easily bought.

This of course would be an unacceptal solution.

But it is far from being anywhere near the only solution.

[uscra112]

Yeah, the other solution is to whine until you get the seller to sell to you at 1/3 of actual market value, (as determined by open auction), just to get you to go away and leave him alone. Only when that fails do the whiners get out their Obamaphones and demand an executive order to redistribute all the ammo.

[Nickle]

I'll tell you what.

You come up with a solution that all these whiners will accept that works and doesn't shred the Constitution.

I'll bet you can't, because the reason most of them (not many of those crabbing here, but everywhere) are crabbing is simple. They didn't plan ahead, and they want somebody to fix it for them.

Now, I'll drop a real bomb on some folks. This same thing happened in 2008-2009.

It isn't just 22 ammo, but components as well. I've lost a LOT of potential sales because I didn't have a massive stock of 9mm jacketed bullets on hand to load for sale. Bought primers lately? Same story.

I certainly don't like the current situation, but I also know sitting around and crabbing about isn't going to fix it one bit. Matter of fact, it will fix itself soon. Once demand goes from "The sky is falling" to "Oh, I guess it isn't", prices will drop, supply will be available. That's how "capitalism" works, supply and demand.

Now, notice I don't crab about the situation. It won't fix diddly, and that's clear. What steps did I take to fix the 9mm jacketed bullet issue? I tooled up to make them. Yeah, I use cast boolits too, but if you're selling ammo to Glock owners (and dealers and ranges that sell to Glock shooters), then you need to sell ammo with jacketed bullets. They don't grasp how to get around that, especially the range in the city that I told to replace the barrels with aftermarket and solve it easily. They just don't understand, nor do they want to.

See, we (gun owners) are our own worst enemy. Some of us will roll right over for the gov't to take their rights away in exchange for a little safety. I used to be (until 18 months ago) one of those guys that provided that safety. I was a ".mil" (think email address), not a ".gov", and I worked for them full time, even spent many years in the active duty too.

Now, we can sit around and crab to the choir, or we can get up off the couch and do something about our situation. I've done some, doing more and I'm not stopping that. You can either get up and join me, or wallow in your sorrow. I'll welcome the help. Consider this a challenge. Joining this or that is nice, but that's not real effort. Contact your local folks fighting the good fight against the gun grabbers. And, if you're in Vermont, feel free to contact me, as I'm one of the few leading this drive here. Massachussets or New Hampshire? I know who to send you to.

And, jcwit, this isn't directed at you. But, I do want to hear your solution. I certainly don't have anywhere near most of the answers, let alone all of them. You just might have something that would work. I just don't think the real crabbers will want to hear it. I think most of them will welcome redistribution, that's their mentality.

[jcwit]

I'll tell you what.

You come up with a solution that all these whiners will accept that works and doesn't shred the Constitution.

I'll bet you can't, because the reason most of them (not many of those crabbing here, but everywhere) are crabbing is simple. They didn't plan ahead, and they want somebody to fix it for them.

Now, I'll drop a real bomb on some folks. This same thing happened in 2008-2009.

It isn't just 22 ammo, but components as well. I've lost a LOT of potential sales because I didn't have a massive stock of 9mm jacketed bullets on hand to load for sale. Bought primers lately? Same story.

I certainly don't like the current situation, but I also know sitting around and crabbing about isn't going to fix it one bit. Matter of fact, it will fix itself soon. Once demand goes from "The sky is falling" to "Oh, I guess it isn't", prices will drop, supply will be available. That's how "capitalism" works, supply and demand.

Now, notice I don't crab about the situation. It won't fix diddly, and that's clear. What steps did I take to fix the 9mm jacketed bullet issue? I tooled up to make them. Yeah, I use cast boolits too, but if you're selling ammo to Glock owners (and dealers and ranges that sell to Glock shooters), then you need to sell ammo with jacketed bullets. They don't grasp how to get around that, especially the range in the city that I told to replace the barrels with aftermarket and solve it easily. They just don't understand, nor do they want to.

See, we (gun owners) are our own worst enemy. Some of us will roll right over for the gov't to take their rights away in exchange for a little safety. I used to be (until 18 months ago) one of those guys that provided that safety. I was a ".mil" (think email address), not a ".gov", and I worked for them full time, even spent many years in the active duty too.

Now, we can sit around and crab to the choir, or we can get up off the couch and do something about our situation. I've done some, doing more and I'm not stopping that. You can either get up and join me, or wallow in your sorrow. I'll welcome the help. Consider this a challenge. Joining this or that is nice, but that's not real effort. Contact your local folks fighting the good fight against the gun grabbers. And, if you're in Vermont, feel free to contact me, as I'm one of the few leading this drive here. Massachussets or New Hampshire? I know who to send you to.

And, jcwit, this isn't directed at you. But, I do want to hear your solution. I certainly don't have anywhere near most of the answers, let alone all of them. You just might have something that would work. I just don't think the real crabbers will want to hear it. I think most of them will welcome redistribution, that's their mentality.

A partial solution that MIGHT work is all these wanna be retailers to acquire a retail license and collect sales tax and pay their taxes on income AKA profits of said sales not only to the state but to the Fed.

I sure most here at least those here in the mid-west have heard of the Shipshewana Trading Place AKA Flea Market. Try to get into this market as a seller without a business license, ain't gonna happen.

Also the retailer who continues to sell out all of his ammo supply week after week and month after month to the same goons over and over is no friend to the shooting fraternity. I'm referring to the big box stores not the independent retailer. I'm NOT advocating laws tho to accomplish this.

This whole idea could also be applied to gas if folks found a way to buy up all the supply. After all gas is not a requirement to life. You say, Oh yes it is, I have to get to work, solution, get a job closer to home, buy a bike, the Amish get along just fine without depending of transportation provided by gas.

[jcwit]

Yeah, the other solution is to whine until you get the seller to sell to you at 1/3 of actual market value, (as determined by open auction), just to get you to go away and leave him alone. Only when that fails do the whiners get out their Obamaphones and demand an executive order to redistribute all the ammo.

Are you implying I lean towards the Obama agenda?

[jcwit]

Now, notice I don't crab about the situation. It won't fix diddly, and that's clear. What steps did I take to fix the 9mm jacketed bullet issue? I tooled up to make them. Yeah, I use cast boolits too, but if you're selling ammo to Glock owners (and dealers and ranges that sell to Glock shooters), then you need to sell ammo with jacketed bullets. They don't grasp how to get around that, especially the range in the city that I told to replace the barrels with aftermarket and solve it easily. They just don't understand, nor do they want to

Do you in fact have the Federal licenses to manufacture ammo?

[uscra112]

I'm advocating laws tho to accomplish this.

Yup! Just as predicted JC advocates picking up the Obamaphone. [smilie=l:

Obama can defy gravity, y'know. . . . .

[jcwit]

Yup! Just as predicted JC advocates picking up the Obamaphone. [smilie=l:

Obama can defy gravity, y'know. . . . .

Dang,I missed the NOT, Thanks for pointing that out. Gave me a chance to change my post correctly!

To be absolutely clear, NO I'm NOT advocating laws to this. Again NO!, NO1, NO!.

Got it? NO!

Was just now flipping thru the channels and MSNBC had a jerk by the name of Martin Basher on and my guide says he's followed by the idiot Chris Matthews. Only good thing about it is, the remote still works to change channels.

[jcwit]

Yup! Just as predicted JC advocates picking up the Obamaphone. [smilie=l:

Obama can defy gravity, y'know. . . . .

Think you need to amend your post.

[Springfield]

I never said I had a solution for every ones ammo shortage problem. I have a solution for mine, shoot something else. Doesn't mean I can't complain about guys who take advantage of others, in MY opinion. Nothing I can do about people selling ammo at very inflated prices except refusing to pay their prices and hope they get stuck with it, and remembering who they are. Took me 4 months to finish building my AR as I refused to pay inflated prices for that stuff also. I have other resources, everyone doesn't.

[Nickle]

A partial solution that MIGHT work is all these wanna be retailers to acquire a retail license and collect sales tax and pay their taxes on income AKA profits of said sales not only to the state but to the Fed.

This used to be Federally required (ammo sales required an FFL and a sales record), but is no longer. Some states require retail licenses, some don't. Some require sales tax certificates (and collecting), some don't. The current administration is trying to require internet sales pay sales tax. We don't want to go there. So, some sellers are selling legally, like the clowns on Gunbroker. I think doing this is already something the administration wants to do to shut us down.


I sure most here at least those here in the mid-west have heard of the Shipshewana Trading Place AKA Flea Market. Try to get into this market as a seller without a business license, ain't gonna happen.

Not a problem, BUT, some state don't require one, just have a sales tax certificate and collect sales tax, and report income (and pay that tax).


Also the retailer who continues to sell out all of his ammo supply week after week and month after month to the same goons over and over is no friend to the shooting fraternity. I'm referring to the big box stores not the independent retailer. I'm advocating laws tho to accomplish this.

That's a slippery slope that could end up as redistribution. Also government mandating prices and sales limits. They WANT to do this, but it flies right in the face of that pesky Constitution, again.


This whole idea could also be applied to gas if folks found a way to buy up all the supply. After all gas is not a requirement to life. You say, Oh yes it is, I have to get to work, solution, get a job closer to home, buy a bike, the Amish get along just fine without depending of transportation provided by gas.

Could be applied to food hoarding to, and, yup, you guessed it, IIRC, been tried to pass that one. That damned Constitution again. Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privelege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right. Notice I didn't say mandated. The rights from the Bill of Rights are not mandated by the Constitution, just enumerated there, so anybody didn't get the idea they don't exist. THe mandate goes much deeper than that, and if you don't know, you really do need to go research it. It's an enlightening read.


Are you implying I lean towards the Obama agenda?

Well, I'm not, not even in the least. Matter of fact, if I thought you were, I wouldn't waste my time replying. That's so you know where I'm coming from. Now, some of the morons that we bump into are what the Communists call "useful idiots". They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.


Do you in fact have the Federal licenses to manufacture ammo?

First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.


I never said I had a solution for every ones ammo shortage problem. I have a solution for mine, shoot something else. Doesn't mean I can't complain about guys who take advantage of others, in MY opinion. Nothing I can do about people selling ammo at very inflated prices except refusing to pay their prices and hope they get stuck with it, and remembering who they are. Took me 4 months to finish building my AR as I refused to pay inflated prices for that stuff also. I have other resources, everyone doesn't.

Yup, that's the same thing I do. I don't like the complaining for a few different reasons. Diverts people from the real problem out there, which isn't getting 22 ammo, but keeping owning one legal. Breeds some of the totally stupid myths out there. I seriously doubt the gov't bought up all the 22 rimfire ammo to create the shortage (heard that one several times).

There's tons of pretty dense morons out there. Many of the don't want a real fix for it, the want an immediate false fix from the gov't. These are the jerks that voted for the guy that was going to give them "free stuff". Well, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

[jcwit]

First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.


Was exactly what it is, a question, not meant to be rude, not meant to be insulting. I asked, you answered. Simple.


Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right.

Yup owning a vehicle is a privilege and owning a firearm is a right. Wish to get picky, the bill of rights says nothing about ammo, only the fact to keep and bear arms.

[jcwit]

They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.


Not something I agree with or support.

[Nickle]

Good to see we agree on some of the stuff.

I'll take the FFL question as legit. I'm probably a little touchy about it, as that question has been asked before as a hidden accusation that I was crooked, and not legit. If we spoke, I'll wager it would be simple, as there isn't any inflection with print. That leads to misunderstandings.

Common sense dictate that ammo is included. After all, this isn't Germany. Yup, there they have registration. You can have a permit to own a rifle that doesn't allow you to own ammo. That's not myth, had a friend that had exactly that, seen it too.

I wouldn't use the vehicle argument when arguing with a liberal gun grabber, unless you use it against them. See, that's one of their standard arguments.

And, some of us would love having you help us fight off the gun grabbers. You've got the motivation and the moxie for it. There's a lot that don't. We're fighting them on the state level, as we already know they can't pass anything on the national level. We know that from their own statements a couple of years ago. The national stuff is probably to either divert attention from the scandals, or the state level legislation, or both!

[JIMinPHX]

I'd be supprised if the cost to manufacture .22 rounds exceeded $3-$5 a brick, even if manufacturing cost tripled it still doesn't justify an $80/brick price.

40 grains x 500 rounds / 7000 grains per pound = 2.86 pounds of lead in a brick of .22lr. That's about $3 right there in today's world. Now add in brass, powder, priming compound, labor, equipment maintenance, etc. I'll bet it costs at least $5 to make a brick & maybe a little more. Add to that shipping, packaging, retail costs & a little profit, we are probably talking close to the $10 that bricks used to sell for before all this shenanigans started.

That still does not justify the $95 price tag that I saw on bricks that were sitting on tables at a Houston gun show about a week ago.

[Nickle]

Do y'all know why some sellers can charge so much for 22 ammo?

Because somebody is dumb enough to pay it.

High prices for 22 ammo is an artificial problem that's been continued by frenzied buyers thinking "the sky is falling".

If you'd stocked up, you could use that, and replace it when prices return to normal.

If you're out, wait out places that sell at "normal" prices and buy that. Try your local shops that don't gouge. Remember who they are, and when the shortage is over, buy from these merchants, not the gouging thieves.

Or, shoot your centerfires instead. Hint, this is what I do, and I'm nowhere near out of 22 ammo.

But, please, don't pay the outrageous prices asked (and gotten from fools).

The real "normal" price is about what Walmart currently charges. Yes, it's gone up, but very little. Stop in and check the price on the shelf at your local Walmart. Surprise, it might be up to $22 per 550 pack, maybe.

[uscra112]

40 grains x 500 rounds / 7000 grains per pound = 2.86 pounds of lead in a brick of .22lr. That's about $3 right there in today's world. Now add in brass, powder, priming compound, labor, equipment maintenance, etc. I'll bet it costs at least $5 to make a brick & maybe a little more. Add to that shipping, packaging, retail costs & a little profit, we are probably talking close to the $10 that bricks used to sell for before all this shenanigans started.

That still does not justify the $95 price tag that I saw on bricks that were sitting on tables at a Houston gun show about a week ago.

There was an old economists' rule of thumb about average retail prices for manufactured goods like household appliances. The direct cost of manufacture times 5. Those indirect costs (sales and marketing, transportation, distributor markup, retail markup, etc.) are a lot more than you imagine. Retailers alone typically have to mark up 100% over their cost from the distributor. The two wild outliers we knew of were womens' clothing, and womens' cosmetics, which both ran more like 20:1 The other end of the bell curve is foodstuffs, which turn over quickly, and rarely get more than a 3:1 ratio, (except for brand name breakfast cereals!), and cars. (You'd be surprised to learn how little a dealer makes on a car!)

Now on to Economics 201.

Let's imagine what happens when in a period of high demand and limited supply of, say, .22 ammo. Let's say a store like Walmart or Cabelas "does the right thing" and offers the ammo at what you feel is "the right price" of $25, using that 5:1 ratio.

Oh, right, we don't have to imagine. We see it every day. Arbitragers (you call them scalpers) rush in and buy up everything in sight, because the Real Price is $80, and they know they can sell it for that on the street, or on Gunbroker or Craig's List. How do we know that $80 is the Real Price? Because that's what people who have the money will pay.

If the store price were $80, this wouldn't happen. And there would be product on the shelves for anyone who walked in to buy. And the manufacturer would have extra money to expand his production.

Anybody who can't grasp that gets a D- for the course.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Just what I want!: MORE licenses! There are already enough laws on the books that most of us are in violation of several every day.

Let's add a few more now. While we're going after the guys kiting a few bricks of .22, let's go after the guys who smelt a little lead, too. After all, those guys are working with known and controlled toxins and are probably not following EPA and OSHA and state regs, either.

dale in Louisiana
(And just in case somebody misses it, that's sarcasm)

[Nickle]

I'm with you, Dale.

And, much as I hate the gougers ("scalpers/arbitragers/etc"), there is a point as to why they charge the way they do.

Because they can, and some dipstick idiot is going to be dumb enough to pay it.

I'll wager some buyers don't even own a 22, but are hoarding to stock it for use "as the new currency if the economy collapses". Well, if that happens, they've got bigger problems.

Me and "currency"? Centerfire ammo will be worth much more than 22, any day, and especially certain calibers. And, I've got enough of them, and components to last. Bullets? I make my own, and not just cast boolits.

[jcwit]

I realize it hard to understand, but its not the guy selling a brick or two. Its the gougers standing in line hogging up all of the ammo the "RETAIL" store allows them to sell and weekly going to their local flea market acting like a retail dealer and week after week selling their products. This is a whole different situation than the guy selling 1 or 2 here and there.

As far as needing "MORE" licenses, not true, most states already require a license to operate a retail establishment, whether it be brick & mortar, or a table at the local flea market. To do otherwise is not only illegal, but cheating all the rest of the honest tax payers, which I'm beginning to wonder just how many here advocate cheating on their taxes.

[Nickle]

Here's my take on the license deal. Like it or not, not bash me, I'm not the state, I don't make the rules. I don't enforce them either. I do know the ones that pertain to me. Your state not only may vary, I'll wager it does some.

Now, there's no FFL required by the ATF to sell ammo. PERIOD! Try to apply for an FFL, and this gets addressed right on the form. They won't give you a Type 01 Dealer license (or any other type) just so you can sell ammo. There's zero need to address this further.

Now, let's move on to state licenses, and trust me, not all states call it a license, but, most do have the equivalent.

It's called a "Sales Tax Certificate" in my state, and if you are "in the business" of reselling for profit, you're required to collect sales tax AND have a sales tax certificate. Of course, enforcement can be spotty on this, especially sales at flea markets and sometimes gun shows (not always at gun shows).

Now, I'll tell you Internet sales are already exempt from sales tax if it's an "out of state" transaction, for the most part. Small sellers that aren't "in the business" usually get intentionally overlooked (and at flea markets too). Why? Costs more to make them collect tax than it's worth.

But, be a gouge artist, that's pretty much "in the business", and see exactly how much slack they cut you when you get caught. My thoughts are they are far more likely to dig deeper, and see exactly how much "back taxes" they can hit you for.

Here's what my state says (and many others are much the same):

License Required
Anyone who sells taxable items in VT must obtain a business tax account and license from the Vermont Department of Taxes and collect and remit on those sales. This requirement applies for all sales even if the sales are for one day or regularly throughout
the year. You will receive your license after processing of your application. There is no fee for the license.
NOTE: An out-of-state retailers coming into Vermont must obtain a Vermont license. The out-of-state license is not a substitute for the Vermont license.

[donald duck]

Yes, I agree that we customers have to be loyal to those who do not gouge us with their prices. Never do business with crooks that raise prices to extremes. Example on Gun Broker a party is asking $360.00 for 5,000 primers. That is gougeing. I wrote Gun Broker and will not do business with them if they continue to list such high priced items. I have a choice to buy or not to buy and to whom I give my business.Last time I purchased primers they were $35.00 per 1,000. Luckily I have a good supply.dd

[S.B.]

This used to be Federally required (ammo sales required an FFL and a sales record), but is no longer. Some states require retail licenses, some don't. Some require sales tax certificates (and collecting), some don't. The current administration is trying to require internet sales pay sales tax. We don't want to go there. So, some sellers are selling legally, like the clowns on Gunbroker. I think doing this is already something the administration wants to do to shut us down.



Not a problem, BUT, some state don't require one, just have a sales tax certificate and collect sales tax, and report income (and pay that tax).



That's a slippery slope that could end up as redistribution. Also government mandating prices and sales limits. They WANT to do this, but it flies right in the face of that pesky Constitution, again.



Could be applied to food hoarding to, and, yup, you guessed it, IIRC, been tried to pass that one. That damned Constitution again. Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privelege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right. Notice I didn't say mandated. The rights from the Bill of Rights are not mandated by the Constitution, just enumerated there, so anybody didn't get the idea they don't exist. THe mandate goes much deeper than that, and if you don't know, you really do need to go research it. It's an enlightening read.



Well, I'm not, not even in the least. Matter of fact, if I thought you were, I wouldn't waste my time replying. That's so you know where I'm coming from. Now, some of the morons that we bump into are what the Communists call "useful idiots". They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.



First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.



Yup, that's the same thing I do. I don't like the complaining for a few different reasons. Diverts people from the real problem out there, which isn't getting 22 ammo, but keeping owning one legal. Breeds some of the totally stupid myths out there. I seriously doubt the gov't bought up all the 22 rimfire ammo to create the shortage (heard that one several times).

There's tons of pretty dense morons out there. Many of the don't want a real fix for it, the want an immediate false fix from the gov't. These are the jerks that voted for the guy that was going to give them "free stuff". Well, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Ain't it great to live in a Free Enterprise country?
Steve

[Nickle]

Ain't it great to live in a Free Enterprise country?
Steve

Yes, it is (and that's no sarcasm). They do have the right to raise the prices to what they want. We also have the right to buy where, what and when we want. Don't like it, then don't buy. But, don't whine for the government to fix it, it's not their job.

Those of you that think the government should regulate the prices because you're either too lazy to find it at a price you like; or too dumb to plan ahead a little (and if you didn't plan, will accept the circumstances); ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Consider yourselves good little communists and go support an Obama rally somewhere. Turn in all your guns to the government and be good proletarians. While your at it, you can always move to Europe. They like government regulation, high prices and their "police state". Maybe you could switch places with a decent European on this site that thinks like an American.

Ashamed of yourselves yet? You ought to be! Some of you so called "gun owners" here really do disgust me. I fight against heinous gun laws, just to have some of you working harder against me than the anti-gunners.

And, mods, sorry about the political rant, but this thread is really in the wrong part of the forum anyways.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Nickle-

But it's not a GUN law, it's a law that will ultimately get in the way of selling ammunition. Some people have difficulty with 'unintended consequences' and also have difficulty in understanding that ANY law affecting guns and ammo will fall into the hands of The Law Enforcement Community for its application, and we know that thoe people always have our freedom in mind, so a few new laws won't hurt, right?

After all, if it saves just ONE child...

dale in Louisiana

[S.B.]

Pretty hard on general populace aren't you Nickle? I suppose you're in retail.
Steve

[shooterg]

FWIW- 100 packs of Winchester .22 at Walmart for $7.47 2 days ago. Didn't buy any, don't need any. 3 days before had the 333 packs for $14.98 . Winchester was the only brand they had, maybe they're catching up faster than others.

[Nickle]

Pretty hard on general populace aren't you Nickle? I suppose you're in retail.
Steve

I am hard on them. I am not in retail, for the most part. I'm a manufacturer, and a good enough portion of my business is wholesale anyways.

Now, the only way that has anything to do with my feelings is that I frequently have to hear the crying.

And my main products? Buy them or don't. Try checking the corner store for 43 Spanish ammo, 11mm Mauser ammo, 40-82 Winchester ammo, 405 Winchester ammo, etc.

They can't find it, can they? Me, I have to put up with little ******** on prices. The common stuff, if they say Wal-Mart is cheaper, I return "well, then that's the place to buy it", and they don't get their ammo from me. Truth be known, it's the cheap skin-flints that cry, and they generally don't buy from me anyways. Check the common prices on some of those calibers I mentioned.

Know that I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers and generally remember who they are. I don't buy from them, and if they go to buy from me, the prices go up accordingly. The excess in those cases, IF they're still dumb enough to buy, gets donated to a good cause, and it isn't my pocket.

[jcwit]

Mostly if not all that I'm asking or wanting is for the make believe retailers to obey the same rules and regulations that the actual retailers do.

[Nickle]

Mostly if not all that I'm asking or wanting is for the make believe retailers to obey the same rules and regulations that the actual retailers do.

Some of the problem is with the real deal retailers, and if shooters ever smarten up, they will pay a steep price later on.

The "make believe" guys are walking a tight rope in many cases.

First off, they may be violating state sales tax laws. The exceptions here are internet sales and states with no sales tax.

They almost all are violating income tax laws, both federal and state.

When law enforcement catches them, it's never good for them. They don't just mention that sale, then slap their hand and tell them not to do it again. They track them as much as they can, then pile it up. And, if it's sales tax, they can't just go recharge the customers, they pay for it themselves.

Like I said, pay attention to who gouges and who doesn't. Some shops do gouge. My advice is to boycott them after, because they're opportunists that don't care about their customers. Chalk it up this way. If they gouge, what do you consider that means in the area of customer service? To me, it means their customer service is awful. Would you go there if their service was good sometimes, awful others? I bet not.

Now, creating new laws to force the "make believe" dealers to do the right thing is just wrong. And, therefore my statement.

Do I need the government tell me those clowns are marginally crooked? No. Do I need the government to tell me not to buy there? Nope, not that either. I'm a big boy, I can do that.

But, all that said, I really want people to get out of their "entitlement mentality" and do their own thinking and acting.

Not acting like fools, then asking somebody to do their thinking for them, while they cry about what they did.

[Nickle]

Mostly if not all that I'm asking or wanting is for the make believe retailers to obey the same rules and regulations that the actual retailers do.

By the way, I do respect that. I just don't want the government to mandate it, and I don't think you do either.

But, if we all quit buying from them, they will quit selling. That's the flip side to a free market.

[Love Life]

Taxes. MMMMMMMM good!!

I shut down sales at a certain point due to the amount of taxes that will be paid. Nothing like being honest...

[Nickle]

Taxes. MMMMMMMM good!!

I shut down sales at a certain point due to the amount of taxes that will be paid. Nothing like being honest...

I don't like taxes any more than the next guy, but, we do have to pay for services somehow. I would gladly drastically reduce defense spending, then make everybody do their share of the lifting on that. But, that's because I've probably done 4-5 people's share myself already. But, seriously, we do have to pay for services. We just let people get away with voting for "more bread and circuses" and we are now slowly doomed, unless we turn that around. Check the references to that quoted comment, it isn't good.

[Love Life]

Believe me when I say YES!!! to cutting defense spending. The fraud, waste, and abuse is downright startling. Especially when the Global War on Terror bottomless money bag was thrown wide open.

Bread and Circuses. Oh yes. Keep the people distracted and placated as the world crumbles around them.

Taxes are a bummer, because the more you make the more you pay. Even after dumping money into charities and stuff. It is a fine line to walk making some extra cheese, but not making too much cheese as to bump yourself over and get the no lube weenie come tax time. I'm still waiting on one of those refunds I keep hearing about...

Come tax time, the guys who bought out walmart and then resold for major bucks will have to make the decision to claim the income or not. In today's electronic age, and it being publicly posted, the IRS is monitoring a bunch of stuff and the people who try to be sly will probably get audited and then pinched. What comes around goes around.

Moving along. I understand the frustrations in people not being able to buy what they want RIGHT NOW due to the shelves being cleaned out as soon as they are stocked. Not everybody is buying to flip though. People are also stocking up. I remember Januaryish when "Evil hoarder guy" was public enemy number 1 on the forum. Then it became "evil gouger guy" as all the secret "evil hoarder guys" couldn't get their zombie apocalypse stash built on the cheap anymore.

Me? I really don't care. I slacked off shooting and found something productive and profitable to occupy my time.

Oops. I got off track. I need to grab my pitchfork to join the mob...

[jcwit]

Taxes. MMMMMMMM good!!

I shut down sales at a certain point due to the amount of taxes that will be paid. Nothing like being honest...

That was your prerogative.

[Love Life]

Never said it wasn't jcwit. What are you getting at? Did I not have the proper license to post or something?

[jcwit]

I'm concerned about the new folks coming into the sport, myself I have more than enough, and yes I have and still do share. And no I do not sell.

I'm waiting for a few more weeks to see just how the NRA Small Bore Metric Matches are attended this year. This is their 3rd year here, last year attendance was down from the first year. We'll see.

[Love Life]

Supplies are coming to the market again. All the new shooters will have a chance to buy their supplies. I'm already seeing fire sales of AR rifles, black plastic handguns and their magazines, and sweet deals on hunting bullets people snatched up since there was nothing else. No dice on my favorite match bullets though...

[Nickle]

Believe me when I say YES!!! to cutting defense spending. The fraud, waste, and abuse is downright startling. Especially when the Global War on Terror bottomless money bag was thrown wide open.

You MIGHT want to rethink that, in respect to my statement.

I served for just under 40 years, with 36+ of that being full time in one form or another. No, I didn't get deployed. Yes, my son has been. Twice, at that.

I do believe if people were to see what it costs to run a country, they might be a little easier on those "evil taxes". Of course, when we have a runaway government that wants to buy votes and loyalty by handing out free cell phones (among other things) to their "faithful", just what do you expect?

And, by the way, I'm one of those people that's been waiting just under 3 months for that "21 day turn around" income tax return. The local IRS office can't even figure that one out. I suspect it may be related to comments I made earlier this year during a meeting with a certain city council. They didn't like my remarks, and it did hit the news.

Now, just how many of you have gotten directly involved with fighting for your rights? Giving out money DOESN'T count, only direct action.

[45 Bravo]

I picked up 2000 rounds of Winchester 40gr hi velocity Saturday for $96 and some change at Wally world yesterday, not too bad in my opinion.

Not $19.95 a brick like it used to be, but close enough .

[jcwit]

Never said it wasn't jcwit. What are you getting at? Did I not have the proper license to post or something?

Man alive, settle down guy, just saying. Heat getting to ya out there?

[jcwit]

Supplies are coming to the market again. All the new shooters will have a chance to buy their supplies. I'm already seeing fire sales of AR rifles, black plastic handguns and their magazines, and sweet deals on hunting bullets people snatched up since there was nothing else. No dice on my favorite match bullets though...

Hasn't changes around here as far as most ammo goes, 22 rimfire is nonexistent.

[Love Life]

It is a bit hot here lately. The only 22 rimfire ammo I have seen is snake shot. Looks like the new .17 Winchester magnum has hit the shelves though. That stuff looks interesting.

[MaryB]

I had 2500 rounds of 22lr, friend in TX needed some for her new rifle so I sent her 1k rounds. She will pay me back when she can. I have enough to get thru summer and the fall hunting season (look out squirrels!)

[ku4hx]

I remember gasoline when it was 29.9¢ per gallon. I lived very close to a filling station that had it at 32.9¢ per gallon but I refused to pay that high price and would drive all the way across town to get the 29.9¢ stuff. I owned a brand new 1973 Mustang with a 351 Cleveland V-8 in it and I just couldn't afford that high priced gasoline.

I also remember full service gas stations. At that time, pumping your own was unheard of and for the price of gasoline you got the three standard checks: air, oil and water. And if you needed any, you had to buy the oil; water and air were free. And we always got our windshield cleaned too.

I also remember "gas wars" and stations competing for the lowest price. For a couple of weeks there in our small town in the mid '50s, gasoline was 11¢ per gallon and the full service aspect was still in play. And this happened about once a year and none of us thought much about it.

Those were truly the good old days. But those "good" days were way back when and it was around the time Jonas Salk was starting to do his thing so maybe they weren't all that good in some ways.

But a funny thing happened around 1973. A little thing called an oil embargo sent gasoline prices out the roof. I mean per gallon cost skyrocketed to an astronomical 70¢ per gallon. Boy do I wish I had 70¢ per gasoline back.

[Nickle]

Funny thing is, though gas has gone up, it hasn't gone up as quick as our wages have, for most the solid "middle class" pay range. It has increased sharply over the last 15 years, but back 15-20 years ago, it went down to the same as 1957 prices, in respect to hours worked per gallon of gas bought.

If you want 70 cent gas back, are you willing to take the lower pay along with it? I'm OK with the current prices, myself. And, you'd be shocked with how little profit there is in selling gas.

On the 22 ammo issue, Mary gets it. That's how we can keep prices down, by not feeding the gougers.

[ku4hx]

Funny thing is, though gas has gone up, it hasn't gone up as quick as our wages have, for most the solid "middle class" pay range. It has increased sharply over the last 15 years, but back 15-20 years ago, it went down to the same as 1957 prices, in respect to hours worked per gallon of gas bought.

If you want 70 cent gas back, are you willing to take the lower pay along with it? I'm OK with the current prices, myself. And, you'd be shocked with how little profit there is in selling gas.

On the 22 ammo issue, Mary gets it. That's how we can keep prices down, by not feeding the gougers.

My point exactly. Prices rise and historically incomes have risen too, albeit income increases usually lag inflation.

Would I be willing to take lower pay with lower prices? I don't really know the answer to that. I suppose if every cost was reduced to 10% of what it currently is I'd accept a reduction of income to 10% of what it is now. It's all relative. But just as people were lamenting the high cost of .22LR ammunition, I was lamenting the high cost of fuel. No caveats, no what-ifs, just straight lamentation. That's what we humans do it seems.

Here's the thing, if the current higher cost of any commodity is perceived as temporary, people are going to complain. If that cost is permanent, people are going to complain. I recall all the complaining and recriminations in 1973 concerning the oil companies and their profit gouging. The same is going on with big Pharma and medications. Not too many years ago I could buy Remington Golden Saber bullets for something like $60 per 1,000. Now they are twice that and more. Same for new unfired brass. I've got powder I bought for less than $10 per pound. Many costs associated with shooting have gone way up and many did not come down. People keep saying .22LR ammunition will come down. I hope it does but I'm not holding my breath. A few pockets of lower prices do not a trend make.

Basically, I'm like you; the price increases haven't really affected me either and that's for a variety of reasons: I plan ahead and maintain stock, my kids are grown and gone, house and cars are paid for and etc. And since I'm an old scrounger, boolit caster and hand loader, I can shoot center fire for, oh ... 7¢-10¢ per round. Am I shooting .22LR right now? You betcha.

Shooting is a cheap hobby. I have a friend that bass fishes and sometimes enters contests. You want to know about a hobby that costs a lot of money? Go price a bass boat, motor and trailer (and attendant maintenance and operating costs for them), maybe throw in a vehicle capable of hauling all that stuff and all the things need to fully support that habit. Same for golf. I live about ten miles from the Augusta National golf course and if you're not a golfer, and wish to jump into that with both feet, "sticker shock" can have all new meaning even for non Masters events and courses.

[tengaugetx]

Local gun shop here jacked her prices up as high as any I had ever seen. Over a dollar a round for 223. Walmart bulk packs for $80.
The last three times I drove past the store the parking lot was empty and she (the owner) and her sister were oustide smoking cigarettes. I think her greed will prove financially fatal for her business.

[uscra112]

Local gun shop here jacked her prices up as high as any I had ever seen. Over a dollar a round for 223. Walmart bulk packs for $80.
The last three times I drove past the store the parking lot was empty and she (the owner) and her sister were oustide smoking cigarettes. I think her greed will prove financially fatal for her business.

Far from being fatal, they're probably just taking a break from shipping all the orders they've taken on Gunbroker --- at $80.

[randyrat]

22 match ammo is not here at all...in fact, no 22 ammo has been here for a while..If you wait in line at Wally world early morning you might pick up a couple hundred rounds. It may take a week of waiting in lines to get any.
I'm down to 300 rds match for my bullseye pistol, that means no live practice this summer, dry fire practice only.

[jcwit]

22 match ammo is not here at all...in fact, no 22 ammo has been here for a while..If you wait in line at Wally world early morning you might pick up a couple hundred rounds. It may take a week of waiting in lines to get any.
I'm down to 300 rds match for my bullseye pistol, that means no live practice this summer, dry fire practice only.

As I stated in post #150 In a few weeks the National NRA Metric Small Bore rifle matches will be held here in No. Indiana, only 5 miles from my front door. Waiting to see it theis shortage affects the turnout at the matches.

BTW, what type of "Match" ammo do you expect to find at WalMart?

[Nickle]

Local gun shop here jacked her prices up as high as any I had ever seen. Over a dollar a round for 223. Walmart bulk packs for $80.
The last three times I drove past the store the parking lot was empty and she (the owner) and her sister were oustide smoking cigarettes. I think her greed will prove financially fatal for her business.

Yup, I do believe it's going to teach her a brutal lesson. That said, I'll bet she hever really figures out why almost everybody goes elsewhere.


Far from being fatal, they're probably just taking a break from shipping all the orders they've taken on Gunbroker --- at $80.

For now, maybe. What happens when the gouging stops because nobody will pay it? When supply catches up, it's going to leave some of those gougers in a tight way, a bunch of ammo on hand, and NO buyers, unless they sell it a whopping loss.

I just checked Gunbroker while posting this, and I see a few sales with multiple bids, and a bunch that have NO bids. Those that expire soon (expiring anywhere from just under an hour to the next 24 hours) had 15 items, only 4 had bids, the other 11 didn't, and the soonest 2 didn't. Sure, they'll repost them, maybe drop the starting bid a little.

But, it is slowly ending. The mad dash stampede of Chicken Little gun owners is drawing to a close, again.

[Nickle]

Oh, and that was just the featured auctions. The regular ones?

20 more items, and only 4 had any bids. That's the items closing in the next 24 hours.

Each set, only 20% is selling at all.

[scb]

Maybe this is why the ammo is so expensive. Look what they're paying for EMPTY boxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-CCI-MINI-MAG-22-LR-22-Long-Rifle-PLASTIC-empty-Ammo-Box-Storage-EXCELLENT-/300928406768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4610bb14f0

I must be missing something. Can you grind up that stuff and snort it or what?

[jonp]

Those would come in useful for the 5 1400 round pails of Remington I bought last year for $55 each at Cheaper Than Dirt :mrgreen:

[NicholasDM]

Don't buy from gougers. Don't enable them to cheat, steal and victimize others. A 500 count brick should cost no more than $20. My roommate's father accidentally purchased a brick for $90 in SoCal. :(

[Mike Hughes]

Last weekend, I was in Cloudcroft New Mexico and stopped in at a small gun store. They had a fairly good stock of guns and ammo. Was looking around and noticed a 535 brick of Remington 22lr and thought SCORE. Was about to snag them up and my eyes focused in on the price tag $104.99. I quickly made my way out the door and will never go back.

[avogunner]

I was in Richmond last weekend and stopped at GreenTop. Not only did they have a nice selection of powder and primers (limit 500 per customer), they also had .22 LR (CCI SV) in stock. They limited those to three 50 rnd boxes per customer and at 3.99 a box, not that bad of a price either.

[2thepoint]

The local Dick's store had a slew of CCI SV #500 bricks sitting on the shelf for $39.99. Limited to one per day.

[Cosmiceyes]

Ammo .22 LR Colt LRN 40 Grain 5000 Round Case 1250 fps ACOLT22SP
(no reviews)
Our Low Price: $1,495.59 Cheaper than dirt.
Ammo .22 LR CCI Mini Mag 36 Grain Copper Plated HP 1260 fps 100 Round Box
5.0 Rating 8 Customer Reviews
Our Low Price: $59.59 Cheaper than dirt.
Bass Pro Shops to follow
.22 Long Rifle 36 Grain Velocity (fps):1280 Bullet Type:Plated Hollow Point Quantity:525 rounds $23.49 SKU: 683730 Only Available in Stores
Looks like certain are trying to rip us off. J&G and Cheaper Than Dirt!

[jonp]

The local Dick's store had a slew of CCI SV #500 bricks sitting on the shelf for $39.99. Limited to one per day.

I wont shop at Dicks again after they caved to anti-gunners and pulled all of the ar15's off the shelf. And I mafe a special trip there to tell them why

[desi23]

Don't buy from gougers. Don't enable them to cheat, steal and victimize others. A 500 count brick should cost no more than $20. My roommate's father accidentally purchased a brick for $90 in SoCal. :(

Gasoline should be well under $2 a gallon too but it isn't. Prices right now are simply where the market is at. If it's too high and people don't buy it the price will come down. As long as it continues to sell though the prices will stay high. If people would get out of panic mode much of this problem will go away. Don't expect prices to go down where they were before this mess though. I have worked in the gun business for a while, saw the 08 crisis come and go and several more before that going back to the Clinton era. After the panic is over prices seem to stabilize just above where they were beforehand (until the next incident).

Don't forget to add in the crumbling effect on inflation too. The buying power of the dollar is still shrinking. Lots of good foreign ammo used to be available at very reasonable prices (especially considering much of it was better quality than the domestic stuff). Those days are certainly gone unless the Euro takes a big nosedive again. Add in increasing materials costs worldwide and that affects domestic production too. Settle down, if you can't find 22's at a price you want to pay go shoot an airgun or shotgun (plenty of stuff for each everywhere I look) take up archery or just go fishing. The marketplace will settle down and you'll eventually be able to walk into your local store and get what you need without all this drama!

[Nickle]

Or, get a centerfire, learn to cast or swage, tool up and start reloading.

It used to be that most serious shooters shot centerfires frequently, for cost issues. We've a bunch of years with real cheap 22 ammo. They will come back, though not quite as good as before. In the meantime, get that centerfire and work on your full distance skills.