slug first , silly!

[makicjf]

I picked up a Marlin Cowboy in 45/70 a few months ago. I have wanted one for years and was really excited! The rifle had a Lyman tang already installed. Due to my relocation and a post office snafu, it took 2 months to get the dies and the 405 mold. I was like a kid at christmas. dropped from the mold at almost .461, but chambered pretty well. I tried 13, 14, 15 and 15.5 of unique, 34, 35, 35 , 40, 41 up to 45 of imr3031- horrid leading, awful flyers wd ww was horrid and ac ww was slightly better with less leading, minute of barn door accuracy. I changed out the tang sight for a standard semi buck horn ( it kept poking me in the eye and I had a really hard time getting a crisp sight picture with it) the rifle shot a little better ( or I did) but the only thing I could get to "group" at all was the hottest IMR 3031 , and it was 4 1/2 to 5 inches at 100 yards , if I ignored the flyers. I thought maybe I needed to just shoot it and get comfortable with it and used it in a Cody Dixon and 200 yard steel match-- exact same performance as at home - miserable. I was feeling like I had a 26 inch octagon barrelled club. I had assumed the bore was bigger than it was. I did not have any large lead sinkers, and only had .457 lead round balls which measured .458. I had not slugged the bbl.
Out of desperation I scrubbed , oiled the bbl, covered a .458 round ball in rem oil and set it in the bbl and had to whack it down in... The marlin slugged at .457: I was running .004 over sized. I ordered a .458 sizer. I hope this works.
Will an overly oversized boolit cause the same issues as an undersized? I run .454 in both rugers because both rossi carbines slug out at about .4525 ( ammo interchangeability) and never had an issue. My 1911 and the 625 shoot unsized lee 230 tc unsized ( .4535 to .454) well. Is it possible that .004 over sized would chamber, but was stripping down and not grabbing the rifling in the 45/70). I want this to work.
Jason

[sparky45]

Wow, I'm certainly no expert, but .004 over seems like it would cause leading depending on how fast you push it and how high/low the BHN. Normal sizing in my case is usually .001 - .0015 over the slugged value. So far I haven't incurred any Leading with BHN of 5-6 (pure Lead) in my 45ACP loads. I push them real slow and they are a delight to shoot. So, I guess what I am saying is, you need to know the BHN of your cast bullets; how fast/slow you tend to push the Lead, and you might want to look into a bullet that had a gas check component. I bet your results will be dramatically better after getting a handle on those facets of your reloading. Good luck and keep us posted.

[BABore]

Before you go jumping off any cliffs, slug the bore again. Pound this slug just below flush with the muzzle, then drive it back out. You need to compare your first full pass slug with the muzzle slug. I'm will to bet that you have one or more bore constrictions in your barrel. All of the 6-8 Marlin 45-70 bbls I've measured run 0.4582 to 0.4586. You really need a micrometer to measure round objects correctly.

An oversized boolit will not typically lead the bbl. If your bbl has a constriction this tight spot acts just like a sizing die. Your 0.460+ boolit gets sized to 0.457 by the constriction, then leads the remainder of the 0.458 bore.

[Green Lizzard]

slug it 3 or more times use an av. i think babore is on track

[makicjf]

The constriction came to mind before I slugged, and really was considered after-- just before exiting the throat it really required a good thump-- way harder than tapping up to that point. I will due as ya'll suggest ( this makes good sense). What do I do if it does have a constriction? The leading was just in front of the throat, about 2 inches in to just stock side of the dovetail.
Thanks!
Jason

[BABore]

It depends on the degree of constriction. If it's less than 0.0004", I shoot it out with jacketed. More than that, I firelap. If you have to firelap, get the manual from Beartooth Bullets. It will give you the exact how-to's and the why's. There are many references to it on this site as well. Not all give you the whole skinny.

[btroj]

I ever slugged my Marlin 1895. I got a .460 sizer and have never looked back. It works so why mess with it?

[jh45gun]

I size my Lee hollow base 405 grain bullets .459 they shoot great out of the Marlin Guide gun I have. They also shot great in the Remington Roller I had before the Guide Gun and the Handi Rifle I had before that. I think the hollow base helps in that regard it is one of lee's better bullets for the 45/70 I feel.

[truckjohn]

Typically, way oversized won't lead... but it can do some weird things....
Here's an example.....

Martini Henry rifle in 577/450 MH... I shoot a 500g PB slug sized to 0.467 to fit it's weird, tapered 7" long throat.... Shoots GREAT even out to long distances....

I decided I wanted to try something a bit lighter... a "Plinker" so to speak.. so I found some 400g 475 Linebach bullets..... Those things went whizzing hither and yon... Where that 500g slug would shoot straight as an arrow - the 400g 475 slug would go sideways about 100 yards out... Literally - at 200 yards, they were hitting in a 20' circle around the target.... You could actually see some of the bullets whizzing out in a circular arc and hitting FAR away..... There was no leading... but I couldn't get them to hit anything....

Always figured it had something to do with them being so much oversized.... that somehow - they weren't sizing down straight and were horribly out of balance by the time they made it out the end of the barrel....

Thanks

[makicjf]

I scrubbed the bore to DEATH cleaned the throat with equal verve, mooshed my round balls wider and slugged four times-- each time I came out with .457 +/- an amount to small to measure with a caliper. I do not have a micrometer. After scrubbing the throat extra clean I did not feel any constrictions or tight spots and light taps pushed the slug on down. I have good land/ groove distinction on all the slugs. I am going to run with the collaborated differential diagnosis that I actually have a .457 ish bore in a marlin. Maybe truckjohn is right and the boolits were swaging down inconsistently. Perhaps the hotter IMR 3031 loads were creating enough obturation to overcome the out of round to a degree? I do not have enough experience to know. I'll try sized to .458 . If it works, great! If not I'll find a .459 sizer and try that. One thing for certain .461 unsized did NOT work!
Thanks for the help!
Jason

[makicjf]

The .459 sizer came. I cast up about 60 ac from ww. When I tried to size them most would not run through. I had a thought that maybe the mold was out of round before, and saw the change on the caliper but attributed it to the thought I was rolling off of center. The bullets "diameter' ranged from as high as .463 and as low as .452 on any single boolit. Oblong bullets , as far as I can tell, would behave as this rifle has shot. Its a cheap Lee mold, and I have 8 or nine others and have never had an issue. Should I just buy another, or try and return/exchange this one? Its hard to beat the price and spending 5-6 times more, then handles on a 45/70 405 mold makes me wince. However a rifle that will not shoot is worthless. Should I take the chance and try again, exchange or buy a more expensive 405 mold?
Jason

[Char-Gar]

Well and oval bullet that is too small on one side will indeed cause leading and inaccuracy.

If you want a good mold for that rifle, buy an RCBS 405 FNGC. It was designed for the Marlin levergun, and gives sterling accuracy in those rifles. Just use a sizer to lube and seat the gas checks, otherwise shoot them as large as they cast.

The only Lee molds I own are our sixbanger group buys for designs I can't get anywhere else. For an over the counter mold, I will not spend money on a Lee mold.

The notion that a 45 caliber bullets that is .004 oversize will cause leading by itself is utter nonsense.

[1500FPS]

Well and oval bullet that is too small on one side will indeed cause leading and inaccuracy.

If you want a good mold for that rifle, buy an RCBS 405 FNGC. It was designed for the Marlin levergun, and gives sterling accuracy in those rifles. Just use a sizer to lube and seat the gas checks, otherwise shoot them as large as they cast.

The only Lee molds I own are our sixbanger group buys for designs I can't get anywhere else. For an over the counter mold, I will not spend money on a Lee mold.

The notion that a 45 caliber bullets that is .004 oversize will cause leading by itself is utter nonsense.

My RCBS 405 mold casts undersized.

[makicjf]

I found a single cavity RCBS 405 at midway. I have two questions-- maybe three. Will lee two cavity mold handles fit the rcbs mold? secondly will the standard 45 hornady gas checks fitthe 458-460 boolit. I have about 800 of the ones I use on the lee 300 rnfp gc; or do I need larger checks? I just want this rifle to shoot!
Thanks,
Jason

[Sensai]

Wow, 11 thousanths out of round is a lot out of round! I'd be taking a close look at the mold for something holding it open. It could be anything from a burr or something on the faces to the way the handles close. Maybe even the locator pins or recepticles not mating properly. I have the older version of the Lee 405 with the bar type locators and had a little lead on the side of one of those hold the mold open a little. It only cost me 4 thousanths out of round and was a bear to find. You can round up a slightly out of round mold by Leementing it, but in my opinion 11 thousanths is too much for that. I think that you have a mold that's not closing all the way.

[makicjf]

retrocpectivley, I can say you are right. I can appreciate a crack of light when the mold and sprue are closed. Maybe I'll clean it, take ita part, clean the mating surfaces and sand lightly any high spots and put it back together.
Thanks
Jason

[Char-Gar]

My RCBS 405 FNGC produces bullets that are a hair larger than .459 when case from ACWW plus a smidge of tin. I run them through a .460 die to crimp the checks and lube. They work just fine in my Marlin 45-70.

I have no idea if Lee handles fit the RCBS as I have several sets of RCBS handles.

Hornaday gas check are what I used on my bullets.

I can think of no better way to ruin a set of Lee blocks than "sand" them. Lee uses pretty soft low grade aluminum. If you must do something of that nature use a good hard stone and go very carefully. If cleaning doesn't heal the problem, they are probably trash anyway as bent or warped blocks can't be fixed.

[makicjf]

Thank you. I'll clean them up, make sure all the mating surfaces are flush and see what happens. These boolits are cattywhompas enough, I may well be getting the rcbs mold. This rifle has become an adventure. All the others were really simple: now i get to learn something!
Jason

[jh45gun]

I would not do anything to it. Call Lee explain the problem and they I am sure will send you a new one. I would not sand it as if Lee wants it back and you sanded it your out of luck.

[makicjf]

I found another 45/70 405 lee mold for extra cheap and gave it a try-it drops a hair over .459, bordering on .460 and they are uniform. I double LLA and air cooled ww unsized and loaded over 15 of unique--- after some iron sight and tang sight tinkering it worked. The iron sights hit to POA at 100 and about 2 inches to the left . The tang is set to hit about 8-10 inches high at 100-- I pulled the sight to the right after this group but could not shoot anymore-- the light was gone. I think this is going to be a great cowboy action long range steel/ pig slayer deer rifle!
Jason76476

[hickfu]

Before you go jumping off any cliffs, slug the bore again. Pound this slug just below flush with the muzzle, then drive it back out. You need to compare your first full pass slug with the muzzle slug. I'm will to bet that you have one or more bore constrictions in your barrel. All of the 6-8 Marlin 45-70 bbls I've measured run 0.4582 to 0.4586. You really need a micrometer to measure round objects correctly.

An oversized boolit will not typically lead the bbl. If your bbl has a constriction this tight spot acts just like a sizing die. Your 0.460+ boolit gets sized to 0.457 by the constriction, then leads the remainder of the 0.458 bore.

I have slugged my 1895 numerous times (no restrictions at all) from both ends and all the way through (I have a Co-Pilot so I can take the entire front end off the rifle) and it comes out to .4575
I use .460 pills out of it with great accuracy


Doc

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If folks would spend a little more time with their smoke pole...slug the bbl. to verify the correct bore size...Before they buy molds/sizers....they will save money and not have start to over. Good Luck Friend, just keep on keeping ON :groner:

[ironhead7544]

I use the slugs from LBT. Cost a bit but are worth it. You can push the slug into the muzzle and then pull it out and measure it. Then put it back in the same place and push it through. This will show any restriction in the bore. Also, you can feel any restriction as the slug passes down. No need to drive the slug with a hammer. I always disliked that as I thought the bore could be damaged. The LBT slug fits on a standard cleaning rod.

[trapdoor1873]

I use a Ohaus 45-405F in my 1895 with a .459 sizer. Doesn't matter what the alloy is. I have shot 30/1 and wheel weights with Linotype and the rifle shoots groups less than 2" consistently using 40 grains of IMR3031. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sodcity/8533330976/