recomended BHN for safe steel target splatter

[leadladen]

Got into a discusion a few days back concerning the proper boolit "hardness" for cowboy action boolits on steel targets. Since these projectiles are shot at relatively low velocities, I have always been under the impression that a harder and more brittle would break up better on a steel target than a softer. And that a softer boolit was more prone to ricochet. So rather than continue the arguement, I figured I would run it past the greatest boolit minds on the planet. Right here. What say ye?

[btroj]

I don't know it makes a huge difference. A softer bullet may stay together better. A harder one will fragment but those frags are going all over.

Test it an see. Place paper targets at a set distance from the plates and fire at the plate. See which throws frags farther.

[robpete]

I shoot plates regularly. Anything over 13 BHN seems to give off a lot of splatter. I tend to stay in the 10-12 range. Nothing worse that getting fragged on bare skin. Air cooled straight wheel weights do fine.

[high standard 40]

I have shot metallic silhouette for 33 years and in my experience, all bullets shatter when they hit a steel plate unless you put a partial hit on the very edge of a plate, then it will ricochet. This of course is dependent upon the target steel being of sufficient hardness and having a relatively smooth surface. Pitted or gouged plate surfaces can induce a bounce back. Very high velocity and soft steel will result in a complete puncture. I've used everything from pure lead at low velocity to hard alloys at high velocity, jacketed and cast. They will all shatter on a flat, hard steel plate. If the bullet strikes the plate straight on, then most of the splatter will be at a right angle to the line of the shot, 360 degrees away from the impact site and mostly small particles.

[JeffinNZ]

A now late departed member of my club, many years ago, did an experiment with rimfire ammo. He set a cardboard carton at 50m with a steel sillywet target inside it and commenced to shoot. In short order the splatter perforated the carton all the way around so it could be torn in half very easily. Yeap, even soft lead splatters.

[44man]

There is no safe lead, only targets. They must be hard and not crater. Angled or free to swing or fall.
50 yards is not safe with some steel.

[BCRider]

Find and watch that great super slo-mo video on You Tube of bullet impacts. It soon becomes apparent that the spatter is along the face of the plate and not back at the shooting line. At least that's the case for any target that is smooth and crater free. Deform the face with unsuitable ammo and cast or jacketed it won't matter. Spatter or rounds hitting a dimple can be directed back off the face and back towards the shooting line. Such targets are unsafe. Only smooth faces are safe.

Even the fixtures used to hold the steel can be an issue. Bolt heads and such can re-direct the fan out of the lead spatter and direct it back towards the shooting line. Or bases welded on to a target such as the falling steel silhouette targets if used at closer ranges can direct the spatter back to the shooting line. My cowboy club had to scrap some knock down bonus targets due to this problem. Spatter was being turned back towards the shooting line by the base welded to the plate.

[Tatume]

At one of the ranges where I shoot there is a monthly cowboy match. At the location of the targets the ground is covered with disks of lead about the size of a two-bit coin. They appear to splash, and then fall or bounce only a very short distance. The coin-shaped disks are uniformly very soft.

[felix]

True story. Pat, my wife, was shooting a 308 model 99 with full case of 5010 and 220 Krag (nickel-chrome) bullet at a 3 foot (oak?) stump about 80 yards away. The bullet came back straight to me from the stump (or a rock of sorts behind/through the stump) at a 45 degree or less angle from the line of sight. I was about 35-40 feet from the stump. I caught the thing in mid air, and dropped it faster than a NY second because it must have been 150 degrees or more. It took a whole 5 minutes for that bullet to reach a temperature so it could be hand held. Lesson learned: Everything will bounce back given a commensurate circumstance. ... felix

[Bent Ramrod]

They used to have safety splatter .22 RF ammunition which had sintered iron/plastic composite bullets which would smash to dust on a hard surface. Maybe some experimentation with iron filings in "gluelets" would afford something of the same sort.

I remember as a kid shooting "Remington Rocket .22 Shorts" along railroad tracks and watching the shower of sparks. They had sintered bullets and came in a package that looked like it was for Chicklets gum.

[Ben Dover]

In my IHMSA experience--very similar to HS-40's, the impact velocity matters as much as does the BHN of the bullet. Target condition matters as mentioned relative to smooth surface as hard steel or cratered as mild steel. Another factor is the mass of the projectile. A small mass bullet impacting at high speed such as from a 22 Hornet will likely not have much splash back toward the shooter. A hard high mass bullet at lower velocity could return from a steel plate. Have you had bounce back from shooting 45 fmj at steel plates ?

[MarkP]

I have several gongs on my range all are A572-GR 50 or A572 GR 65. Which is High Strength Low Alloy steel (HSLA) basically structure steel so nothing special and not an ideal material for steel targets. I think most commercial targets are T1 or some type of abrasion resistant steel. In regards to splatter I had several plastic pop bottles filled with water in front of one of my gongs. After shooting the gong with one of my 38’s I realized most of my bottles were leaking water. The bottles were in a pile approx. 3 feet in front of this particular gong and the lead was clip on WW’s so pretty soft and low velocity. I was very surprised by this as my other gongs all have lines or gouges (due to splatter) in the ground running parallel with the face of the gong.
Several years ago a friend of mine shot an abandon house on his Dad’s farm from about 50 to 60 yds away with a 12 ga slug. Immediately after he shot he jumped and started grabbing his thigh and then handed me his shotgun.
The flattened slug hit him in the thigh. He had a huge pinkish purple lump on his thigh. The wound was similar to being hit by a golf ball. The deformed slug looked like a table spoon; an elongated blob of lead.

[Whiterabbit]

safe velocity, not safe alloy. I cast stick on wheel weights. shoot 1300 fps from a pistol, only splatter at 50 yards. Shoot 2000 fps from an inline muzzleloader, makes a permanent crater.

That's on a 1/2" mild steel swinger.

[fouronesix]

Got into a discusion a few days back concerning the proper boolit "hardness" for cowboy action boolits on steel targets. Since these projectiles are shot at relatively low velocities, I have always been under the impression that a harder and more brittle would break up better on a steel target than a softer. And that a softer boolit was more prone to ricochet. So rather than continue the arguement, I figured I would run it past the greatest boolit minds on the planet. Right here. What say ye?

I think you have it backwards.

No one answered the direct question. Most recommend a softer alloy- something like a 20:1 alloy or softer. Soft alloys would be more likely to transfer the kinetic energy of the bullet into deforming the bullet, heat, movement of the plate, etc. - not transferring the bullet's kinetic energy into the force needed for a large shard of a harder bullet to bounce or deflect (with higher energy) in some unknown direction.

[rsrocket1]

Here's the video of the slow motion bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg). I think the lead splatters start at about 6:22.
This is incredibly hypnotic. Every time I watch it, I want to see the whole video from start to finish.

[high standard 40]

I think you have it backwards.

No one answered the direct question. Most recommend a softer alloy- something like a 20:1 alloy or softer. Soft alloys would be more likely to transfer the kinetic energy of the bullet into deforming the bullet, heat, movement of the plate, etc. - not transferring the bullet's kinetic energy into the force needed for a large shard of a harder bullet to bounce or deflect (with higher energy) in some unknown direction.

I did answer the direct question in post #4. In my experience it makes no difference. Pure soft lead or hard cast, they all shatter. Ricochets are most often caused by target condition, not bullet alloy. Look at the video referenced in post #16 and you can see it.

[fredj338]

I have shot steel for a lot of years. Hard lino bullet running hard will frag, run them light & they bounce. Soft slugs will deform & IME, less likey to come bouncing back. Nothing is safe in close on steel but sintered rounds.

[BCRider]

I realized in looking over this thread that I didn't answer the real question either. OK, here goes.

Lead is not elastic or springy regardless of what alloy is used in bullet making. It is a soft and ductile sort of metal with very little spring back at best. As such it is NOT going to spring back from a flat clean plate of steel regardless of the alloy or hardness. Instead it will pulverize and spread to the sides, up and down as typical for the handgun rounds shown in this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

The only way the lead or even copper parts of the bullet will reflect back towards the shooting line is to be re-directed by some secondary object or shape. Otherwise it will simply expend all contained kinetic energy into fragmenting the lead and/or jacket and then fall to the ground.

This is readily apparent to anyone that has shot much steel. The line in the dirt that matches the forward face of the target provides instant proof of where the lead goes. And if you want to confirm the spatter coming off the upper area shroud the rim of the target with plastic or paper and you'll see that the line in the dirt extends up and over the top and down the other side. Face angle be darned, unless you angle it down towards the dirt by a good 20 degrees or more SOME of the spatter will extend up and off the top of the target. Mount a target holder with a paper target so it hangs over the steel a foot or so up and see what it collects for holes.

[Smokepole50]

I have a 18" steel plate that is 2" thick hanging by a 1/2" metal bar and chains from a 4x4 beam. The plate is angled quite well towards the ground and can swing with impact, if the bullet is big enough. It is craterd worse than the face of the moon from FMJ impact, some as deep as 1/2". Is this a danger to shoot with mil surp ammo if I am at least 100 yards away? I already knew about AP rounds that don't make it threw the target coming back at the shooter but I always figured standard FMJ ammo, even mild steel core ammo would just dust it self on impact. In fact it is quite easy to see even at 100 yards the gray lead dust cloud at impact.