Cast Bullets in a Marlin 336, 30-30, Micro Grove barrel?

[ldanes]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to reloading my own casted bullets for rifles. I have a Marlin 336 made in 1969. It has a Micro Grove barrel? Any information on loading for the Marlin 336 with cast bullets would be much appreciated. I have a Lyman 31141 (old) 173 gr .309 FN mold ( not used yet) Also have WW for a casting product. Have loaded for rifle and pistols with jacketed projectiles. This is my first post on your fine site.


Thanks in advance,

Lou

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the affliction! Looks like you're off to a great start. What powders do you have on hand?

[RickinTN]

I've been working with several 30-30 micro-groove rifles for the last couple of years with cast. The micro-groove is definitely at least a little different animal than a "ballard" rifled 30-30 and add that the marlin is a 10" twist. In my experience the Marlin 30-30's require a harder bullet than you might get by with in a standard rifled barrel. I would suggest water dropping or heat treating if clip-on wheel weight alloy is what you have (good alloy by the way) for the added hardness. Most of what I have read suggest a "fat" bullet to fill the throat of the Marlin rifles. I have at least two rifles which will chamber a bullet of .312" plus a touch, but thus far have gotten the best accuracy with bullets sized .310" in one rifle and .311" in the other. Most of my rifles will shoot a .310" bullet into 1" or so @50yds. Most of my work has been at velocities in the 1,400fps and down range. Hopefully your mold will drop bullets @ .310" or more.
Good Luck,
Rick

[ldanes]

Varget, H 414, BL-C (2), H335, IMR 3031, Reloader 22, H4350, H4895, H1000, H4831, H4831SC, H380, H322, Benckmark, Win 748, 768, 760.
WW are an online buy. Lou

[ldanes]

Thanks for the reply, what is a "water drop" and what can a person do it the mold drops a bullet less then .310"? Lou

[wmitty]

Try the 31141 unsized with 45/45/10 lube and 25 gr Re 7 or 3031; try to get to throat diameter and don't worry too much about groove diameter. If you want to go fast, oven heat treat the boolits at 450 degrees for an hour and then quickly dump 'em in cold water. I seat gas checks before heat treating in a push thru die at .311"...
welcome to the site and ask questions!

[Green Lizzard]

i would try them, crimp on the gas check using a 310 die. i had the same thing with a 303 britt. 314 groove .312 boolit all over the target tumbling all over the place. i made up a 315 die barely crimping the check on boolit never even touched the die. accuacy was not target grade, but pretty good at 2 or 3 in at 100 yds pointy end first

[truckjohn]

So... there's a bunch of lore about these.... Many folks have good results with hard bullets... Your "typical" Marlin 30-caliber barrel ran a hair larger than 0.309... so 0.309 bullets are the absolute smallest you should consider for cast.... The "largest" will be determined by your chamber neck, reloading dies, and the brass thickness... For example... Neither of mine will chamber 0.312" bullets, and 0.311 is a real push to get it in there.... 0.310" is fine, though... so that's what I run...

The thing to do is to mic a 1x fired case inside the neck.. Take off 0.001" and this will give you an idea of safe max bullet diameter.....

Next thing is bullet hardness... Fresh cast bullets are real soft... Lead hardens as it ages... Most of the time, you have to wait a couple weeks or a month before you can shoot them or they will be too soft...

Next... Loads wise - start off with well known and tried Cast loads that work for many people....
So... Say your 31141 sized 0.310" gas checked and running over 16 grains of 2400 powder is a fine starting point... Lots of folks love the classic 4198 loads as well...

Thanks

[btroj]

I shoot cast in my microgroove all the time.
I shoot a 165 gr with 16 gr of 2400 with excellent results.

[Jeffrey]

Hey Lou, Your rifle sounds like mine. The nice thing about a 30-30, is that being a rimmed cartridge, "gallery loads (cat sneeze, mouse fart), are a lot easier to achieve than in a rimless cartridge. You'll learn the reasons why when you read the "stickies". I was in much the same place you are now when I started this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94463-Don-t-know-where-else-2-put-THANK-YOU
I LOVE this site, Jeffrey

[waco]

My brother has the same rifle, made in '67, and we use the Lyman 311041 cast from air cooled wheel weights, sized to .311, gas checked, and lubed with BAC, over 18 grains of 2400. I don't have my notes right in front of me, so I can't tell you the speed, but the accuracy is great!

[Maven]

Lou, Take a look at this: http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001951264366462437169%3Aggn3vg-bjum&ie=UTF-8&q=cast+bullet+loads+for+.30-30+Marlin+Microgroove+rifling&sa=Search

[ldanes]

You guys are great!!!! This site is also great. Nice to know that there is help for persons new to casting bullets. Thanks again, as I will be asking more questions.

Lou

[Jeffrey]

Not to be a grammar Nazi, but you cast "boolits".:kidding:


You guys are great!!!! This site is also great. Nice to know that there is help for persons new to casting bullets. Thanks again, as I will be asking more questions.

Lou

[TXGunNut]

Not to be a grammar Nazi, but you cast "boolits".:kidding:

Agreed, haven't had much use for bullets since I discovered boolits.

[Lonegun1894]

Play with the sizes, and as has been said, try to shoot the biggest that will still allow you to chamber. Mine is a '71 vintage, and leaded up horribly when I was trying to size them to .309" regardless of how hard or soft my alloy was. Once I quit that and sized them to .311", I get 1.5-2.5" groups at 100 yds and my full power loads are well over 2K fps. I shoot mostly lighter loads, but that is mostly because they're cheaper on powder, but neither my light plinking loads nor my full power loads lead the bore any. I wanted to see if I could deposit any, since it seemed like once leading starts, it keeps getting worse til you break down and clean it out, but I fired 300rds of full power loads without cleaning and the bore looked like new after a single patch was pushed through it and wiped out the powder fouling. So I for one don't buy the stuff I was told before I bought my Marlin about how they supposedly won't shoot cast.

[badge176]

Look into the effects of mold/ melt temp and alloy composition to bring up the diameter of your Boolits a smidge (i.e. Pure Pb "shrinks" back most while Lino from the same mold runs larger...) I can't tell you the "magic" but somebody has already posted or referenced almost EVERYTHING there is to know about Boolits somewhere in these pages!

[Lead Fred]

I shot many a Ranch Dog cast round though my Marlin 336 before I sold it and bought a 1949 model 94 Winchester
Shoots the same Ranch Dog cast boolit, but now I has to call them 30WCF!

[YunGun]

Welcome to the site! As previously stated, the micro-groove rifling likes a 'fatter' boolit... My initial trials with the Lee 309-170GC sized @ .309 were less than impressive, but groups tightened up noticeably once I switched to a different mold (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=308) & added some linotype to my melt, producing wider boolits.

If you haven't already done so, another helpful resource you might want to check out is the LASC.US (http://lasc.us) site, & this page (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm) in particular relates to the alloy content/temp/shrinkage ratios as mentioned by badge176 above.

As far as powders go, I've had pretty good success with IMR 4198(~18gr) & SR4759(~16gr), Alliant Unique(~9gr), Reloder7(~22gr) & 2400(~16gr). YMMV

[DEVERS454]

I have oven heat treated rifle bullets for years using #2 alloy and using a good quality rifle lube, they work well in my mg Marlin barrels.

I use a gas check, so I really don't see much in the way of leading.

No reason you can't push a 150 or 180gr bullet past 2200fps in a 30-30, providing the rest of the system performs.


Try the 31141 unsized with 45/45/10 lube and 25 gr Re 7 or 3031; try to get to throat diameter and don't worry too much about groove diameter. If you want to go fast, oven heat treat the boolits at 450 degrees for an hour and then quickly dump 'em in cold water. I seat gas checks before heat treating in a push thru die at .311"...
welcome to the site and ask questions!

[Airman Basic]

Perusing all this wisdom, wondering if the gas check is really needed with the sub 1500 fps loads?

[robertbank]

10 gr of Unique made for a good plinking load in a Win 94 I had. Sold it and now have the Marlin 336. Shoots the 311041 boolit great. I haven't loaded any plinkers yet but will. I water quench my WW boolits for my rifle loads.

Take Care

Bob

[TXGunNut]

Perusing all this wisdom, wondering if the gas check is really needed with the sub 1500 fps loads?

Not if you're using a plain base boolit. With a GC boolit you'll just have to try it.

[Lonegun1894]

Mine never would shoot GC design boolits well without the GC, but shoots the Lee 90gr .314" SWC sized to .311" just fine with light loads (2.7-5.0grs is all I have tried with these) of Unique. Doesn't feed them very smoothly and tries to hang up while chambering if I try to cycle the lever quickly, but work very well working the action at a normal or relaxed pace. But as has been said, each rifle is different so the only way to find out what yours will do is to just try it. Best of luck.

[YunGun]

Haven't done very much testing, but I had moderate success using starting loads (~7gr) of Unique with the Lee 309-170GC (unsized/sans GC) in my Marlin, but only at lower velocities & relatively short range (~50yds). Just a bit above that I started seeing leading, but probably could have gone a bit faster with better accuracy had the boolits been fatter (these were dropping pretty much right at .309-.3095).

[mroliver77]

Mine is a bit newer than yours. I found that size matters more than hardness. The Marlin has no throat as such and that is the weak link.
I shoot 150 - 180 gr boolits up to maximum power with great accuracy and no leading! I use the slower powders that work in this caliber and fill the case.
I shoot pure lead round balls in it. I shoot 90 grain bullets and boolits over a few grains of fast powder.
Read all you can about fitting a boolit to the chamber/barrel.

It is amazing when you discover just how flexible the old "thutty- thutty" is.
J

[TXGunNut]

It is amazing when you discover just how flexible the old "thutty- thutty" is.
-mroliver


It truly is an awesome round and the 336 is an awesome rifle. Things have gotten a lot faster and fancier over the last 100+ years but I'm not convinced they've gotten better. Can't wait until I score another 30-30 336 but until then I'll just have to make do. Enjoy!

[blixen]

Adding to chorus... I've had the same experience as Rick with fat boolits. I use a Lee mold 185 gr. sized to .311. Gives me great accuracy with light loads. I water quench and use gas checks. I've found GCs make a world of difference. Good luck.

[UncleSarge58]

Great Mold you got there. Straight Wheel Weight Lead Will Make Great Boolits in it.
With this Boolit 20gr H-4198 (1700fps) is a Great Plinking/Small Game Load
& 30gr BL-C2 Will make a Fine Black Bear/Deer Load (2000fps)
Good Luck & Good Shootin,
UncleSarge58

[rhead]

Perusing all this wisdom, wondering if the gas check is really needed with the sub 1500 fps loads?

Load up a couple of dozen of each with your best load and then you can know instead of wonder. Also you might want to shoot a full power load some day. My advice is forget that you ever heard the term "Micro groove" measure your throat and develop your load by the prescribed methods. With cast slower powders that give a gentler push at the start will usually work better.

[dsbock]

Lots of good advice in here. What would the recommendation be for a .30-30 non-gas check mold in the 150-170 grain range? A flat point like the Ideal 311157 would be preferred.

Thanks.

David

[RickinTN]

Lots of good advice in here. What would the recommendation be for a .30-30 non-gas check mold in the 150-170 grain range? A flat point like the Ideal 311157 would be preferred.

Thanks.

David

I've been working with a bullet from an Accurate mold that Tom did for me. It fits the Marlin micro-groove chambers I have very well. I've not had the mold long but thus far the results are promising. It is the 31-170S. This is a gas-check bullet. I exchanged notes with another member here, and I apologize to you and he both that I can't remember who, and he came up with his version of a slightly lighter plain-based design. That mold number is 31-165S also from Tom at Accurate molds. If I were looking for a good plain-based bullet I would be strongly tempted by this design.
Good luck,
Rick

[andremajic]

I found that size matters more than hardness.
That's what she said...

Most promising load for my marlin 336. 311041 mold as cast from WW alloy, no gas check, lubricated with beeswax/alox/vaseline lube.
CCI no. 200 primers
Fireformed hornady cases with the primer knocked out (not resized) Trimmed to length with lee trimmer/case gauge.
19gr 4198
Boolit seated and lightly crimped at the crimp groove so that the round cannot go into or be pulled out of the brass.
Rounds feed, chamber, and eject perfectly, with a slight engraving just at the base of the ogive when chambered.

I had to aim 6" high at 25 yards, due to marlins horrible unadjustable, fat, bulbous, buckhorn factory sights. One hole/cloverleaf. First 2 rounds were 1705fps and 1706fps. That's 1fps deviation. After 20 rounds the shot to shot deviation being 10-15fps with an extreme spread of 50fps!
(This might be because I didn't weigh or sort the boolits.)

I had to aim 8.5" high at 50 yards. Had a 4 round square group that measured 1", with a couple extra fliers lower and to the right.

I needed a short range pig hunting round that doesn't lead my rifle, shoots fast enough to kill, and wouldn't need gas checks to prevent leading. Since the woods out here are so thick, 50 meters is definetely the longest range I'm going to use this for. Once I get some decent adjustable sights, I will be happy as a clam!
All the feral pigs I've seen have been jet black, (Of course the only time I see game is when I'm driving to work!)so I'm thinking some hiviz sights so I have some contrast.

I'll update as I get more results!
Andy

[robertbank]

andremajic I mounted a Sparc red dot sight from Vortex on my 336 and does it work well! I bet it would be just the ticket for shooting your hogs at 50 yards. Dot s easy to pick up, you shoot with both eyes open. Bullet goes where the dot is resting once you have it sighted in. Out to 100 yards my 336 is as accurate as I can shoot.

I am using a GC 311041 Lyman boolit over 25 gr of WC335 a surplus powder we get up here. Vel 1974fps with no leading.

Take Care

Bob

[rl69]

I would love to see a pick of your setup

[robertbank]

I would love to see a pick of your setup

Here you go:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/Firearms1/Marlin336002.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/Firearms1/Marlin336002.jpg.html)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/Firearms1/Marlin336001.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/Firearms1/Marlin336001.jpg.html)

My rural assault rifle!

Take Care

Bob

[rl69]

Nice looking bang stick.i can't wait to get mine off of layaway

[robertbank]

Nice looking bang stick.i can't wait to get mine off of layaway

You won't be sorry. The Vortex red dot sight isn't for everyone but it sure is a step above iron sights. Not quite a scope but a tweener sight. Works great for a cartridge whose office runs out to 100 yards for most work.

Take Care

Bob

[andremajic]

andremajic I mounted a Sparc red dot sight from Vortex on my 336 and does it work well! I bet it would be just the ticket for shooting your hogs at 50 yards. Dot s easy to pick up, you shoot with both eyes open. Bullet goes where the dot is resting once you have it sighted in. Out to 100 yards my 336 is as accurate as I can shoot.

I am using a GC 311041 Lyman boolit over 25 gr of WC335 a surplus powder we get up here. Vel 1974fps with no leading.

Take Care

Bob

Does it hold up to the recoil well?

Update: I shot another 20 rounds rapid fire at the range today with a larger velocity spread. Apparently it's leading. After scrubbing the bore, large chunks of lead starting coming out on the patches. 16-1700 without gas checks is leading my barrel.

I'll dial it back and see what happends.

Andy.

[robertbank]

Andy yes on the recoil no problems there. I have shot hundreds of rounds with it on my 9MM Beretta Storm along with 50 - 60 rds of 30-30 with no ill affect.

Without gas checks I wouldn't run much over 1100 fps with a 311 boolit. Dial back your loads or harden your alloy.

Take Care

Bob

[andremajic]

I went ahead and got a freechex III. No more leading problems at 1700 fps and I have a lifetime supply of gas checks. I should have done this a long time ago.

The only thing that comes out on the patches is dark powder fouling. No more lead slivers!

[Magana559]

Im glad I found this thread just in time!

[blixen]

Just an update. Took my 60's 336 (9x scope) to the range:
185 gr. Lee "Brit. 303" boolit
mystery range lead. Alox/paste wax lube.
Sized .311
Alum. Gas checks
12 grains of Green Dot.
CCI primers

1 1/2" -- 2" groups at 100 yards.

But I had a couple wild fliers. I think they might have been caused by loose gas checks as a result of how deep I have to seat the boolits -- way below the shoulder--due to the Marlin's snug throat. But Im just guessing.

I keep flip-flopping on whether I love my 336 or my old (1902) win. 94 more.

[TXGunNut]

Velocity? Maybe backing off a bit will eliminate those fliers.

[Etazelaar]

What is everyone's barrel diameters, and the brinell hardness of your bullets?

[pls1911]

Blixen, TXGun has a point.
Back off on the pressure spike, and your flyers should be reduced. Also, try heating your bullets at 450 for one hour and quick quench in cold water.

Etazelaar: I have samples of about every year of Marlin 30-30 from '48 through the mid 60's, and the early years of microgroove bores vary quite a bit. With heat treated gas checked bullets .310 through .312, they all shoot better than I do.

Big ol' good 'uns, or good ol big 'uns, JM Marlins love 'em all.

[RHaid]

Accuracy is the goal. a bullet can go 3,000 FPS , but if you miss what's the point?