Unexpected addition to the company

[Pb2au]

Went to a local estate sale today. The listing showed a lot of muzzleloaders and or parts. I got there and saw two finished guns that got my attention. Both were flinters, one a fowler, the other a simple trade gun.
Well, the trade gun soon was riding in the back seat of the truck on its way home with us. Here is a pic of the beast, please ignore the toe in the lower right of the image.
72419

What is interesting is a stamping on the top of the barrel, near to the breech plug. If any of you gents recognize it, I would appreciate the info.
72421

Since my very near calipers are on my desk at work, I had to use my highly accurate tape measure, read by my calibrated eyeball to measure the bore. It is roughly .625" at the muzzle.
Anyway, thought you kids would find this interesting.

[DIRT Farmer]

If my poor memory is functioning, The sitting fox is Green River Forge. The gun from your reading should be a 20 ga.

[Maven]

Pb2au, If it is indeed a Green River Forge trade gun, there should be a highly stylized "GRF" on the rear of the lock plate, behind the hammer/cock. I'd like to see more pics of the lock, both inside and out if it wouldn't be too much trouble.

[Pb2au]

No trouble at all. Give me a bit and I will put the picture up.
I love these kind of projects, thanks so much for the help.

Muzzle loaders were and are my first love. This one is new ground for me, as I've always dealt with rifles, never smoothbores. So learning loadings for ball and shot will be a good experience. As usual, I am more than willing to sponge up info from those that have walked the path before me.

[Pb2au]

Pb2au, If it is indeed a Green River Forge trade gun, there should be a highly stylized "GRF" on the rear of the lock plate, behind the hammer/cock. I'd like to see more pics of the lock, both inside and out if it wouldn't be too much trouble.

I had enough to time to take a look closely at the lock.
It does not have GFR on the lock plate. I pulled the lock from the weapon and on the in side of it I found "Dixie gun works" barely legibly stamped into it.
What was very strange though was that there was matching serial numbers engraved into the back of the lock and on the underside of the barrel. Not engraved by machine, but by a hand held engraver. There also appeared to be the name "bush", or something similar to that, also engraved on the inside of the lock, under part of the lockworks themselves. I'll get some good pictures up tomorrow.

[Pb2au]

Here are two pictures of the lock.
72555

and the inside
72556

These are not the best of pictures. I get a couple of shots with the macro lens tonight and get them up.

[Maven]

Pb2au, Your lock mortice and lock, both the shape of the lockplate and the mainspring are quite a bit different than mine. Also, the inside of my lock is stamped "Made in Italy" (in capital letters), which was completely unexpected (well made and reliable though). Lastly, the internal diameter of the muzzle is smaller than yours
(.615"). Thanks for posting those pics!

[Pb2au]

Pb2au, Your lock mortice and lock, both the shape of the lockplate and the mainspring are quite a bit different than mine. Also, the inside of my lock is stamped "Made in Italy" (in capital letters), which was completely unexpected (well made and reliable though). Lastly, the internal diameter of the muzzle is smaller than yours
(.615"). Thanks for posting those pics!

No worries. I still need to measure the bore properly. I was just eyeballing it with a tape measure.
I am curious about something. How does one sort out the fit between the size of the ball and the patch? Do you select a ball size and patch it up to bore, or is there some other consideration or technique?

[Maven]

"I am curious about something. How does one sort out the fit between the size of the ball and the patch? Do you select a ball size and patch it up to bore, or is there some other consideration or technique?" ...Pb2Au

In a perfect world, you would indeed select a ball diameter and patch it to fit the bore. In reality, things are a bit different and a tight patched ball is less important in loading a smoothbore than loading a rifle. Here's what I discovered with the GRF trade gun and a T/C .56cal. smooth rifle (has an adjustable rear sight, unlike the trade gun):

GRF trade gun: I was given a Dixie .600" RB mould when I got the gun (and it actually cast .600"!). I tried patching with .014" & .018" thick (compressed) patches, but saw little difference in accuracy with the thicker ones, all else held constant. Tried a Rapine .600" RB mould, which cast closer to .608", but wasn't as accurate as the Dixie with any patches. I next bought a Jeff Tanner .600" RB mould, which casts .597" (pure Pb for all RB diameters I mentioned) and which is the most accurate of the 3. The only difference between the .014" and the .018" pillow tick patches is how difficult it is to seat the .597" ball, otherwise accuracy is the same. Btw, the working load is either 70grs. Diamondback FFFg or 80grs. FFg Diamondback. (Think of the RB as a knuckle ball in that it isn't stabilized by rifling-imparted rotation. You need a bit of velocity to make it "accurate.")

T/C Renegade .56cal. smoothbore. This one has an adjustable rear sight and will easily shoot into 1.5" @ 25yds. The bore measures .56" as near as I can determine and was made to use a .550" RB. Lyman and Thompson Center offered moulds for it at one time. I picked up a .550" Lyman mould for a song and use .010" material (pocket drill?) for patching. I thought .012" patching would be better, but the thinner stuff loads with a bit of resistance and doesn't burn through. Btw, I also use a felt wad over the powder charge (50 or 60 grs. FFFg) in this gun and think it tightens my groups.

In sum, a slightly smaller ball + a tighter patch* + an overpowder felt wad (Google Duro Felt if you're interested) + enough powder to compensate for the lack of spin** seem to work in smoothbores.

*tight enough to hold the RB on the powder charge, but not so tight that you have to hammer it downbore.

**60grs. FFg is good place to start, but after load development, you may need as much as 100grs. for repeatably accurate shooting.

[Pb2au]

Finally measured the bore.
Three measurements, all landed at 0.618".

[ktw]

What is interesting is a stamping on the top of the barrel, near to the breech plug. If any of you gents recognize it, I would appreciate the info.

There is a custom gun builder in southern Michigan (near Saginaw Bay) that goes by the name of Sitting Fox (http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.php). Mid to low range pricing. May be one of theirs. Don't know for sure, I've never held one from that shop.

-ktw

[Boerrancher]

In this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160666-Gots-a-question-for-you-Trade-gun-shooters you should find all of the answers you are looking for when it comes to shooting your new trade gun.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Pb2au]

So I'm getting the hang of shooting a smoothy, and wow what a good time it is!
Long story short, everyone's advice and guidance really is appreciated. It is brought me along quickly with this gun, and I am well and truly addicted.
At 35 paces, I'm putting balls into a 3" circle, which for a smooth bore rookie I'm pretty happy so far. Shooting shot has also gone pretty well. At 25 paces, and #6 shot, the pattern looks good. I'm still getting my feet wet though and have a a lot to learn.
Thanks again everyone

[DIRT Farmer]

Good to hear things are going well. Bring it to Frindship for the fall shoot and we can play on the Quail walk.

[bob208]

look up sitting fox. also dixie sold just locks. that lock has a bedford county tail on it. bedford county pa. is abount the only place where they used that style lock.

[Boerrancher]

Glad to hear you are getting the hang of it. I love my trade gun, I have found it likes tight loads to really shoot well which is irritating to me because I don't like a short starter. Once you get on to it not having a rear sight is not a handicap.

Best wishes,

Joe