Barrel Whip????

[drhall762]

This question may have been asked and answered but I can't find it.

Does a muzzle loader with BP experience the same barrel harmonics that a conventional cartridge rifle does upon firing?

What brings this question about is that I have been looking at underhammer style MLs. They seem to all have two piece stocks or only a butt stock. Conventional rifles of the 2 piece design, such as the Ruger #1 often need to hang the fore end from the receiver to get maximum accuracy. I have seen Schutzen style underhammers with palm rests on the barrel. What is different?

Thanks.

[williamwaco]

Never fired one but had a minor in physics many years ago.

I can tell you one thing:

ANY long skinny rod that is hit by even a mild explosion is going to vibrate.

[jblee10]

Even short fat barrels have whip. But they are stiffer and the amount of whip will be reduced. The key to accuracy is consistency. Certain pencil thin barrels can shoot well. At least until heat effects a change upon them.

[DIRT Farmer]

Which explains why even small changes in powder charges can make big differances,

[451 Pete]

As mentioned above the heavier or stiffer the barrel is the more resistance it will have to vibration. A good example of this are the muzzle loading slug guns. Some of these have barrels around 2 inch's in diameter and weigh close to 60 pounds.

The German Schuetzen style of rifle was designed primarily as a gun for off hand shooting. The palm rest is used as an extension of the shooters forearm allowing the shooter to rest his elbow on his hip by leaning slightly to the side and thereby providing a steadier rest to align the sights. Some of these rifles can weigh up to 16 pounds so resting on a bone rather than using a muscle to hold the rifle up can be desirable.

72435

Just my thoughts .... Pete

[johnson1942]

i have all the muzzle loader barrels i put on my muzzle loaders cryo treated and if im dead set on touching all bases on accuracy the vibatory stess relief system is very affordable also. when i shoot my 2 .50 cal 1/23 twist muzzle loader with a 724 grain paper patch bullet and 100 grains of 2f black behind them not only does the barrel vibrate, the whole gun does. on my sons modern 270 i put about a dozen fat rubber O rings on the front of the barrel. that really calms down a barrel and improves accuracy. i dont do that to my muzzle loaders because it doesnt look traditional. takeing care of barrel vibration is just one spoke in the wheel of accuracy but it is a very important spoke.

[Omnivore]

I'd only say that if barrel whip is your worst problem, you're doing REALLY, REALLY well with everything else and you therefore have nothing to worry about.

[DCM]

Here is a "little" article about barrel "whip" if you are interested.
http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

[Fly]

Watch the barrel in this video at super slow motion & you will understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozyw84Swmb4

Fly

[Shooter]

Witch are stiffer, round or octagon, how do the harmonics run?

[drhall762]

Thanks. Discovered it a couple of days ago. It is pretty good.

[johnson1942]

this is really getting to be informative for every one, keep it going. i have some more to add. if a barrel is made from bar stock that is bent some then straightened that barrel is going to be a problem. it may be and look perfect except for one thing that cant be seen. the barrels micro memory is still bent. when this barrel starts to heat up after a few shots it will bent towards the way it was bent before being straightened. you can never hold a group with this kind of barrel and it will drive you nuts trying to. i have seen several guns like this even from top of the line co/s like weatherby. one shot through the x ring and the rest walk off the paper, each worse than the last. each time when these barrels were cryo treated it cured the problem. cryo treating the barrel took enough stress out of the steel that the bent memory was lost and the gun could shoot as it should. i did come accross one muzzle loader barrel that was like this for another reason that was impossible to fix. the bore wasnt centered in the barrel. it was a one shot wonder and then it would walk and walk bad. it became a very nice wall hanger over the fire place for a man who only wanted it to look at and never shoot it. it was a dixie penn. rifle kit put together very nicely. vibratory stess relieving will cure a barrel of walking if it is made from a bent bar but i prefer cryo treating the barrel because their are other benifits to the steel also. another way to greatly reduce vibration in a barrel is to sleeve a barrel. a barrel within a barrel so to speak. must less vibration and whip in these two piece barrels. a round tapered barrel is supposed to have less barrel whip than a straight barrel but i think any well made barrel and shape if the steel is treated to a cryo treatment has the poss. of shooting well.

[fouronesix]

I'd only say that if barrel whip is your worst problem, you're doing REALLY, REALLY well with everything else and you therefore have nothing to worry about.

Well said! I think I'll stick with that approach for most muzzleloader and other cast bullet shooting. The posted "study" was done with modern centerfire, capable of measuring tiny group size differences as affected especially by the longitudinal (back and forth wave traveling between breech and muzzle) high velocity wave. The big, cantilevered "whip" phenomenon, as pointed out, is something else completely and the thing most often discussed. For muzzleloaders, I think time and effort is better spent on providing a good even barrel and tang bed platform. Then just concentrate on the most accurate sight and load combinations.

[FL-Flinter]

Witch are stiffer, round or octagon, how do the harmonics run?

Mike,
Rigidity (stiffness) is indifferent for octagon, fluted or whatever as the barrel is viewed as a cylinder utilizing the minimum average concentric circular dimensions irrespective of the internal and external profile. Rigidity and vibration (harmonics) are different aspects though they are unilaterally interrelated in that a change in rigidity will affect vibration but a change in vibration will not affect rigidity. The same unilateral condition applies between rigidity and strain (mechanical deflection) for a given applied load where only strain is affected by a change in rigidity. In addition one must also consider the affects induced by the annular and linear pressure waves and strains induced by the propellent pressure containment as well as the projectile traveling through the bore.
Mark