How can you tell a zinc ww from a lead ww?

[WCF3030]

I'm sure this has been covered before.
I just got my hands on 40lbs of ww from a ford dealership and I can't make heads or tails of what I have.
Any help would be great.

[standles]

There are varied ways.

One is you can mark a piece of paper with a lead wt but not a zinc. If they are plastic coated then you can scratch them on concrete or cut to get a fresh edge.


Personally.... I adopted the method of smelt the WW low and slow. The lead ones will melt at around 600degF. Zincs melting point is not until ~780degF so they will float to top. Skim them off with the steel clips, Flux good , Skim dross and make some pretty ingots.


Caution.. If you overheat (I used a thermometer and a infrared thermometer to make dang sure I do not) the zin will alloy with the lead and you can just trash the whole batch for boolits. If you cast sinkers it will still be fine.


Now.. Since I helped you you can send me 20# of your nice find LOL! :castmine:

Later, Steven

[Blammer]

drop it on the concrete note the sound, and how far it bounces.

drop some lead ones on the concrete note the sound and how far it bounces

zinc ones sound "tinney" and bounce a long ways away.

[Marlin Junky]

Pb based WW's can be whittled with a knife. A knife blade will barely scratch a Zn WW.

MJ

[rr4406pak]

standles,
Why would you have to throw the batch away if you unfortunately melted a few zinc pieces in there???
Just wondering.
Thanks pal!

[John Boy]

I'm sure this has been covered before.
It sure has ...
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=320540

[standles]

Zinc is a contaminant in bullet metal. It creates alot of problems with casting good boolits. Once it is alloyed into the lead you are not getting it out.

That batch then becomes sinker or counterweight fodder.

This is why I also do not smelt raw components in my casting pot. If zinc gets in your going to have to do a thorough cleaning of your casting pot to get rid of it. My cast iron smelting pot can be easily cleaned with a knotted wire whell on a drill.

Steven


standles,
Why would you have to throw the batch away if you unfortunately melted a few zinc pieces in there???
Just wondering.
Thanks pal!

[WCF3030]

Thank for the information.
Beers all around.:drinks:

[NVcurmudgeon]

I have seen very few zinc weghts, YET. So far, every one has been marked "ZN." Besides lead alloy, pure lead tape-on, and zinc weights, there are also steel weights. The steel weights will have the clips riveted on, and of course a magnet is the fastest way to identify them. There are also steel tape-ons, usually smaller than the lead tape-ons. I have seen one all plastic weight. It looked like many of the German lead weights,was painted to resemble lead and the very light weight gave it away.

[Old Ironsights]

I'll post some pics of my latest dross.

I've got both Zinc and Steel WWs.

[smokemjoe]

For whats it worth, I took a big pile of WWs that were gray looking and didnt think they were good lead WWs. Melted them all down ,made a awful smell from all the paint. The bullets were water quenched and air cooled. Also made some samples up and run them threw my lead tester that has a 200 Lb. die spring in. Tested them ever week and the hardness was just like the old looking WWs. At the end of 1 month. I shot them and no leading in my 30 BR. I have found very few WWs that didnt melt and one of them was a steel one. Thats it . Joe

[Old Ironsights]

I have to work on an post a few pics, but I THINK I can have a pic of some contaminated lead for everyone.

I have a small batch of what should be/should have been pure Lead, but it just doesn't act right.

If anything, it acts like Cerrosafe. Totally crystaline even after cooling. Doesn't bend, just breaks.

Looks almost like pot metal. Got about 20lbs of it I dumped into catfood cans to use as bookweights.

Cold melt or hot melt, the cooled metal looks and acts the same - like crystaline pot metal. Really weird.

[Mugs]

There's a article in the new Fouling Shot by Bill Ferguson that says zinc will alloy with lead at 604F. He says though the amount is small it is enough to affect casting.
Mugs

[leftiye]

Mugs- Need I say OH GOODY!?

[felix]

Very true if a certain "flux" is included by intention or by accident. ... felix

[standles]

and that "certain flux" would be ??

[WCF3030]

I'll post some pics of my latest dross.

I've got both Zinc and Steel WWs.

I'd like too see the pics.
I went out and smelted the WW using the scratch and write method. I did not find any Zn. Since the WW were from a large Ford dealership I had thought that I would have ran into some.
I don't yet have a temp gage but I kept a close eye on the how they melted.
Poured them into my muffin tins and had me some ignots.

[felix]

Some unknown (by me) salt containing a metal which acts as a catalyst. In other words, if that mystery metal exists in the base alloy, then the zinc will go into solution readily at a much lower temperature. ... felix

[Shuz]

I also read the article that Bill Ferguson wrote in "Fouling Shot" #189. He doesn't mention the flux that he uses, but in the last sentence he does say that as a result of his recent findings he advises to smelt wheel weights at the lowest possible temperatures. For me now, I'm gonna try to stay below 604F. I'm finding the percentage of zinc in my wheel weight scrounging to be increasing all the time. Perhaps that's because I get the moajority of my freebie weights from a foreign car dealership?! Hey---free's, free---Like my 5 year old grand daughter says,"Deal with it Papa!"

[Typecaster]

Old Ironsights--

I've got half of a new ingot of Cerrosafe floating around here somewhere. If I find it, I'll send a photo to show if it's crystalline. The Cerro Metal Co. (www.cerrometal.com) puts together a bunch of weird alloys with low melting points. Some are very expensive, at least in the McMaster-Carr catalog. You could get an idea of what you have by checking the melting point.

[Old Ironsights]

Old Ironsights--

I've got half of a new ingot of Cerrosafe floating around here somewhere. If I find it, I'll send a photo to show if it's crystalline. The Cerro Metal Co. (www.cerrometal.com) puts together a bunch of weird alloys with low melting points. Some are very expensive, at least in the McMaster-Carr catalog. You could get an idea of what you have by checking the melting point.

I do too. Here it is in comparison to my "funky" melt:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0377.jpg

The left semi-ingot is Cerrosafe.

Here's a closeup of the bad chunky bits.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0375.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0374.jpg

These chunks came from a test melt that hit 1000deg, just to make sure it wasn't too cold. The structure looked the same from 600 to 1000 deg, so into the Catfood can it went.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0381.jpg

Today's MicroSmelt went better. I rendered 12qt of WW down to 4qt of Molten (and into ingots) in 2 hours. Nice thing about this setup is that a full pot CANNOT hit more than 700deg.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0384.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0385.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0386.jpghttp://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0390.jpg

[John Boy]

Bill Ferguson that says zinc will alloy with lead at 604F.
:roll: I've got trouble with this statement. Regardless of the heat source, a pot of WW's or a blow torch ... zinc melts at 787 F. In order to 'alloy' with lead, the zinc first has to melt - Right?
http://www.wacklepedia.com/z/zi/zinc.html

[Old Ironsights]

I'd like too see the pics.
I went out and smelted the WW using the scratch and write method. I did not find any Zn. Since the WW were from a large Ford dealership I had thought that I would have ran into some.
I don't yet have a temp gage but I kept a close eye on the how they melted.
Poured them into my muffin tins and had me some ignots.

Here's my latest sortings. The blackened bits on the left are Zinc stick-ons pulled from the Melt. The Middle is (from top, inverted pyramid) Zinc Stick on and Iron Stick on. The Right is Zinc sorted from the Buckets. Note that all the Zinc are riveted. Here in Chicagoland I haven't seen any non-rivited clip-on zinc WWs.

What you see (minus trash and bare clips) is the total "unusable" from 5 buckets of WW.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0373.jpg

The 3 pieces on the bottom right that show holes but no clips are all PVC.

The Folger's can below contains all the bare "clip" gleanings from the 5 buckets. I'm guessing that most of these are from rivet-on Zinc weights that lost their zinc.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0378.jpg

[WCF3030]

Thanks for the Pics OI.:drinks:
This casting stuff can get addicting.

[imashooter2]

:roll: I've got trouble with this statement. Regardless of the heat source, a pot of WW's or a blow torch ... zinc melts at 787 F. In order to 'alloy' with lead, the zinc first has to melt - Right?
http://www.wacklepedia.com/z/zi/zinc.html


Ferguson sold a special flux to alloy antimony to lead at less than 650 degrees. It worked, and the melting point of antimony is over 1,100 degrees F. Why do you find it hard to believe that some catalyst could cause zinc to alloy to lead at very low temperature? If Ferguson says it, I believe it. The only questions that remain are what catalyst and how common is it in the wild...

[drinks]

Ironsides, wow, I have been through a few buckets of wws in 40 years and, to date, have found a total of 2!
Both were clearly marked Zn.
I hope that what you have there is not the future of wws, I shall be hurting for alloy at the rate I use wws up.

[Old Ironsights]

The only ones that were marked Zn, were the stickons at the top center. The riveted ones on the right are not marked - but they are fer-sure not Lead Alloy 'cause they DON'T melt at 500-600.

[rr4406pak]

Thanks for those pics Old Ironsides! They Help!
Now I know what to watch out for...

[PatMarlin]

I don't think I've ran into a zinc ww yet. I have good luck smelting with a cast iron pan and a good old Coleman stove.

What temp do you think the Coleman gets up to?

[imashooter2]

I don't think I've ran into a zinc ww yet. I have good luck smelting with a cast iron pan and a good old Coleman stove.

What temp do you think the Coleman gets up to?

Depends on the size of the pot you have on it. When casting, mine got a 2.5 quart SS pot over 800 degrees easily before I'd turn it down. For smelting, I'd never let it get that hot.

[jonk]

I can't be bothered to drop, cut, or scrape every wheelweight I melt. It would take days. I do watch them as they melt though- if one is sitting there when everythign else is melted, out it comes. If I've ever missed one this way it hasn't been an issue; I can get good mould fill out esp. if I add some 50/50 solder to get it to #2 alloy specs.

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, I sort as a matter of cleaning the buckets - though I do admit to being somewhat anal about it.

I do it sort of like playing solitaire... a happy mindless tedium to waste some time.

If the weight has Rivets, it goes in a different bucket along with bare clips obvious iron and anything marked Zn.

Pb stickons are a small pile by themselves.

I've only missed one Zinc weight that way and it was a Rivet too.

Now for the anal bit:

I also seperate my weights into a >2" bucket and a <2" bucket. While it sounds odd, it makes a difference in the way I do my "MiniMelts".

The >2" weights have a higher Lead to Clip ratio, so if I need more ingots in a hurry (like I do right now), the big weights will give it to me. My last 100# raw melt yeilded 90#s ingots and 9#s clips.

When I have time to spend Fluxing and Scraping, I'll melt the little ones.

[Crosshair]

Pb based WW's can be whittled with a knife. A knife blade will barely scratch a Zn WW.

MJ

This method works very well. It is easy to do and foolproof. I lack a thermometer right now, I'll get one when I order my molds. This makes sure that I don't ***** my metal. As a Newb, it also helps to eliminate as much variance as possible. As the saying goes, I have more time than money.:rolleyes:

[quack1]

Ironsights- If you still have those weights in your picture, check the rivited clip-ons with a magnet. I'll bet most of them are steel. Most of the zinc clip-ons I get are molded on to the clip and the rivited ones are steel. Seems like every bucket of weights I get has a higher percentage of steel and zinc than the one before it. I keep all the zinc ones in case Pa. ever bans the use of lead jigs and sinkers.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

The 4 weights under the magnet are zinc.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/vrieze42/101_0604.jpg