Paper Paatching for 454 Casull Carbine?

[RPRNY]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200866-Paper-patching-for-454-Casull-Rifle-Need-wisdom-please&p=2232291#post2232291

My bad, I started the thread in the Mephistophelian Black Powder Paper Patching section. They were very kind in tolerating my attachment to this new fangled smokeless stuff, though they insist that it will never catch on ;-)

So, the rifle is a 20" 45 LC barrel reamed to 454 Casull (with a rifle chamber reamer) on an H&R SB2 receiver. Twist rate is 1:16. I have an odd hankering to shoot paper patched heavy lead through this barrel. The barrel and receiver are good for 65,000 psi, so I am not particularly concerned / constrained by rational pressures in any event.

I have been shooting an LBT 300 gr GC LFN over 28 grs H110 and 27.5 grs IMR4227. The H110 is quite hot. Flatter shooting but bruising and some horizontal stringing. The IMR4227 loads seem more of a push than a sharp crack and while a more parabolic trajectory, is giving me reasonable 2.5" - 3" groups at 100 yards. Some little 185 gr PB SWC over 7.5 grs Trail Boss have been amusing in 45 LC but not what one would deem accurate in any way.

It has been suggested to me that slicks are not the way to go with smokeless powder and paper patching. Presumably this is because the lead is too soft for the velocities being generated, in the 1700 - 1800 fps range?

That being the case, I would welcome instruction on bullet type and technique for smokeless paper patching in this application.

Also, does anyone have any experience with breech seating paper patched bullets? And if so, your comments would be most appreciated.

The rifle in question:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Turkey/454%20Stutzen%20Build/001-5.jpg

[Nobade]

The lead isn't too soft, but smokeless doesn't give the instant hit that black does and the core gets pushed out of the patch before it fully engraves in the rifling. At least I think that's what happens. But anyhow, take the same pure lead boolit and put some micro grooves like a Lee tumble lube boolit on it, and it works great.

So, to get started I would suggest taking that LBT boolit you have a mould for, casting some up out of soft(er) lead, and size them to .001" over your rifle's bore size. Wrap them with some paper in the 15# range, 2 wraps with the ends almost butting up to each other, lube them with something that won't wet out the paper, and size them to be a thumb press fit in a fired case. Figure out where they need to sit to lightly engrave the rifling, and fill the case up with IMR4227 so it is lightly compressed. Use a card wad under the boolit if you like.

Of course there is a lot of fine tuning to be done, but this will get you going and likely work very well. If your chamber is much longer than your cases you will probably get paper rings left in the chamber. Bring a nylon brush on a short rod to snag them out between shots or the next shot will go wild.

OK, guys - let the suggestions flow!

-Nobade

[RPRNY]

That's a pretty good plan of action. I will pursue, and revert with various and sundry "***s?" and advise on progress. :wink:

First question. Roughly speaking, how much over bore should patched bullet diameter be? Is it "fill the leade", or less precise?

[303Guy]

I think that pure lead or at least a soft alloy is OK so long as the core can wedge the paper against the bore before it has the chance to slip. With harder alloys it is necessary to knurl the boolit before patching. However, if you have a choice then go with GG or Loverin styles. If you are designing your own then use micro-grooves as Nobade suggests.

[Nobade]

That's a pretty good plan of action. I will pursue, and revert with various and sundry "***s?" and advise on progress. :wink:

First question. Roughly speaking, how much over bore should patched bullet diameter be? Is it "fill the leade", or less precise?

Whatever is the biggest size you can fit into a fired case without tearing up the patch.

Ferinstance, my Marlin 45 Colt takes a .458" boolit, no problem and shoots great with them.

-Nobade

[RPRNY]

So, do you remember your first time? :D

No grown man should be so giddy with delight over such a minor accomplishment. Yet I am. They will be a disaster down the barrel. I used 380 gr slicks sized .442 and patched them out to two sets sized .455 and .462 respectively, so they are unlikely to work well but I did manage the process reasonably well. Rolled decent bullets lubed seemingly well (35% Vaseline/ 65% Lee Alox) and seated them all without a single tear in the patch. Oh, and remembered to check to make sure they chambered before making them all up. 8-) So, about that I am inordinately happy.

I have to say, these things look bloody sinister. Maybe it's the cold dead flatness of the lead.

Pictures. Critique and advice most welcome.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/photo-3_zpse102d5ba.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/photo-3_zpse102d5ba.jpg.html)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/photo-12_zpsd0baadbc.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/photo-12_zpsd0baadbc.jpg.html)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/1aa668ea-3ead-4896-9942-285a87d7f81c_zps7b874d75.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/1aa668ea-3ead-4896-9942-285a87d7f81c_zps7b874d75.jpg.html)

I really like this photo below because with no scale, they almost look like .22 LR

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/photo-4_zpsb0084d45.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/photo-4_zpsb0084d45.jpg.html)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/photo-62_zps0a3ec578.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/photo-62_zps0a3ec578.jpg.html)

[DeanWinchester]

Critique and advice most welcome.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Tech%20photos/photo-3_zpse102d5ba.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/LRDG/media/Tech%20photos/photo-3_zpse102d5ba.jpg.html)



Critique? Okay, you've only got 49 boolits there. That's driving my OCD up the wall!

[Green Lizzard]

thats not ocd, its cdo

[RPRNY]

Critique? Okay, you've only got 49 boolits there. That's driving my OCD up the wall!

Not to worry, it's out for the picture just below it. All fifty accounted for. Deep breaths....;)

[RPRNY]

So I also rolled some 350 gr slicks sized .451" and patched to .458" and .465". As you can imagine, those patched out to .465" didn't work well. Hard to seat, damaged several patches. Learned from the experience.

Today I had the opportunity to shoot some of them at 100yds. Counter-intuitively, at least for me, the 380 gr .442" patched to .455 were superb. I got three good groups of 1" to 1.5" with one flier that could very well have been me rather than the load, ie shooter error. The .451 patched to .458 did not do as well. Groups opened up to 3" and more. Since group sized deteriorated over time, I think fouling had a role. I forgot to bring a brush and was getting a little paper/residue ring in the chamber, so I quit shooting before trying the .442" sized to .462". I don't intend to try the .451" patched to .465".

General impressions: Felt recoil was less than a 300 gr GCLFN loaded to comparable levels. It was so much more enjoyable to shoot these BIG bullets than I would have thought and trajectory was relatively flat comparing well to the 300 gr GCLFN over nearly the same charge of IMR4227. IMR4227 left quite a bit of unburnt residue in the barrel, more so than with groove lubed, gas checked lead. 24.5 grs may have been a little hot for the 380 gr bullets. Accuracy with the .442" bullets patched to .455" was at least as good as any jacketed bullet I have ever used in the 454 Casull barrel. People at the range were utterly incredulous about the whole concept. I was informed with absolute certainty by a self proclaimed range guru that I would "blow [myself] up and those around me shooting those crazy things with smokeless powder." He was visibly disappointed when I did not do so.

[Nobade]

Great to hear it worked so well for you! Plus it is fun to show the naysayers that this stuff does indeed work very well!

Hint - a pistol cleaning rod with a big nylon brush on the end is great for snagging the paper rings out of the chamber before you load the next round.

-Nobade

[RPRNY]

Hint - a pistol cleaning rod with a big nylon brush on the end is great for snagging the paper rings out of the chamber before you load the next round.

-Nobade

Like!