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View Full Version : Anyone loading .458 Win as 45-70?????????



jethrow strait
08-12-2005, 10:07 PM
Just wondering if anyone had any success loading cast boolits in a .458, in spite of it's fast 1/14 twist as compared to the traditional 45-70's 1/20"? Preferred boolit weights and powders, esp. surplus. Thank You, jethrow

The Nyack Kid
08-12-2005, 11:04 PM
I dont have a .458 mag . I load my 45-70 up to 458 levals ( recoilwise ) think of the 458 as a 45 2.5 inch. i.e 45-100 . I read some were that the 45 cal. long range sharps have 1 in 12 inch twist for 500gr boolits .( I think it was 1 in 12) the 458 mag will do anything the 45 2.5 inch can and then some . going to need filler for the 458 to load it down to 45-70 levals or use black powder .most loads for the 45 2.5 are in the 45-70s range

Bullshop
08-12-2005, 11:08 PM
Just wondering if anyone had any success loading cast boolits in a .458, in spite of it's fast 1/14 twist as compared to the traditional 45-70's 1/20"? Preferred boolit weights and powders, esp. surplus. Thank You, jethrow
Jethrow
The standard 458 win chamber is not much different than a Sharps 45/2.5 accept it is for the belted case. The twist is a bit faster but the long range shooters are using 1/16" twist with soft alloy. What I mean about the chambers is that when Win designed the long free bored throat for the long 500gn factory sollids they pretty much coppied the long free bored throat of the Sharps that was intended for paper patch. I have fired many rounds of paper patch from the 458 Win and thet work very well. I have also fired many conventional greece groove boolits and they work ok but with some designs there is a problem with that long throat. Boolits with long parillel sides like the RCBS 525 fngc will work well but have to be seated out quite far to fill the throat.
BIC/BS

swheeler
08-12-2005, 11:54 PM
Jethrow; not for 15 years or so. I used a 552 gr bullet and 28 gr Hercules 2400 with no filler. The rifle was built by an old gunsmith in Kalispell , MT but seems like it had a 20 inch twist? Even this light loading churned up pretty good recoil, but much more pleasent than the 500 Hornady and 74 grs 4895.
Scooter

Linstrum
08-13-2005, 01:05 AM
Hi, Jethrow, how ya doin’? Along the lines of what Bullshop has already mentioned, you could think of the .458 Winmag as basically being something like a ".45-70 Long". It is definitely in that family even though it has a belted case. That "family" includes ones like the .38 Special that turned into the .357 Magnum, .32 Auto that turned into the .30 U.S. carbine, .44 Special that turned into the .44 Magnum, etc. I guess the .41 Magnum is in there, too, although the .41 Special did not come first.

About eight years ago I bought a new Winchester pre-'64 replica Model 70 .458 Winmag. I couldn't find a new Ruger No. 1 in .45-70 after two years of looking so I got the bolt gun specifically because the .458 Winmag is close enough to the .45-70 to suit me and with a little machine work to the brass it will fire .45-70 cartridges. I fired one factory-loaded 500-grain round nose .458 Winmag cartridge and while I was waiting to regain the use of my right arm I decided to look into .45-70 equivalent loads.

The Lyman 46th edition has several cast loads listed for various bullet weights that are all pretty much down in .45-70 Trap Door performance territory. If you don't have access to a copy I'll email you a photograph of the page out of mine.

Just in case, I planted lipia around my house because they say that it is a pretty good rhinoceros repellent, at least here in Southern California. But just in case it fails I did keep the other nineteen .458 Winmag 500-grain factory loads, although in eight years I haven’t had a rhinoceros get through the lipia yet!

Buckshot
08-13-2005, 07:52 AM
.............Jethrow, is this some kind of left handed round about way to say you bought a 458 Win Mag :D. Oh, it's a friends?

If you happen to think about an igniter under a whole bunch of WC860 in there, I tried that in my 45-90. Worked well in the 45-70, but not so well in the .300" longer case. Saw undue pressure with the same dose of H4198 under the slower ball powder.

...........Buckshot

9.3X62AL
08-13-2005, 09:04 AM
As above, the 45-70 doing its 458 WM impressions in the Ruger #1 is sufficient entertainment for me.

jethrow strait
08-13-2005, 02:01 PM
Who, moi? C'mon, what self-respecting range rat would want a .458 Winchester???---except to turn it into a super-accurate scoped and bolt-action 45-70! Naw, the deed has not been done; just cogitating(but the ducks are all in a row), since I did turn a 375H&H into a 38-55 cast boolit express. I'm afraid local BPCR folks just can't wrap their conventional minds around the concept. So, that's why I'm solicitating your wisdom; figure that you boys would lather me up sufficiently so that I can go out and do the folly that I so want to do.
Guess I just need the Nike Cheer; i.e. the twist is no problem, recoil at the bench is hardly noticeable, und der grupen are just wunderbar, so just do it, cabron!-----sincerely, jethrow

45nut
08-13-2005, 02:34 PM
I am another of the 458 Win Mag owner's . And although I also have a 458x2 and 458 Lott as well as 3 45-70's my 458WM is not a rifle. My own 458 WM is a pistol,an Encore from TC with a custom OTT barrel. I shot a few rem 405 SP' blems from a midsouth buy a few years back and then went to 500gr lead for Winnemucca. Quite a few of the NCBS attendees had a go with it and none were unduely damaged. RL7 was the powder under the boolit and recoil although present never scared me in the pistol. My 458x2 rifle,a P-17 conversion still has a steel buttplate and whups ya pretty good,while the pistol just rolls up and hangs there.
A pic of my big bore pistols,,,,
458 and 50Ak.
http://gunloads.com/modules/Gallery/albums/Feburary-Photo-Contest/45nut.jpg

26Charlie
08-13-2005, 06:13 PM
Jethrow,
I acquired a .458 Remington M700 with 26-inch barrel back about '68, and trot it out for special occasions - plate shoots, put down a bigmouth loudenshooter, etc.
Early on I found that the ball seat being very long for the parallel-sided jacketed bullets meant that long cast bullets were needed. I started off with:
Lyman 457121 PB, 40.5 gr. 4198, 1 Toilet paper wad, bullet seated way out and crimped in the 5th groove. This bullet is a 475 gr. plain base with about seven grooves, long body. The TP wad was 1 square, loosely crumpled and inserted so that it took up the air space when the bullet was seated, without being rammed down on the powder at all. This load was so accurate with the open U-notch and bead front sights, that I shot it exclusively for years.
Then I read about wads ringing chambers, and so as not to take the chance I quit using wads at all. By this time I had some gas check moulds, as follows:
Lyman 457406 500 gr. GC, with 57.5 gr. 4895.
Lyman 457406 500 gr. GC with 52.0 gr. Accurate Arms AA2015BR.
Lee C45-500 500 gr. GC with 57.5 gr. 4895, Fed 210 primer.
All these loads are more powerful than the 457121 load, but will group in the 2 1/2 inch at 100 yd. range, with the open sights. The Lee load I shot on new year's day 2000, putting 4 in 1.5 inches with the fifth shot opening it to 2.3 inches, wrist rest at 100 yards, open sights.
Nobody wants to shoot more than three of them, when offered at the range - these things really whang the iron plates, too.
A good friend of mine uses the RCBS 300 gr. GC with 16.0 gr. Unique, and reports good accuracy, but I have not tried this in my gun. What I will try is the 457121 with a 1/8" card wad under it to protect the base, and the above-mentioned 4198 load. I use the card wad solely in contact with the bullet in .45-70 and .444 Marlin to protect plain-base bullets, which works well. I just insert them in the mouth of the case and let the bullet push them down when seating; I haven't got around to it yet with the .458.

jethrow strait
08-14-2005, 09:08 AM
Well, I guess it's time I got rolling on this project. Much obliged to y'all for the inspiration!

Dang 26Charlie, that treatise was downright pithy, pithy I tell ya. You haven't lost a beat since them Shooters days of yore. Still remember your posts in July of '03 on the idiosyncracies of the Charter 44 Bulldog Pug. Downright pithy and true.--------jethrow

jethrow strait
08-14-2005, 09:09 AM
Well, I guess it's time I got rolling on this project. Much obliged to y'all for the inspiration!

Dang 26Charlie, that treatise was downright pithy; pithy I tell ya. You haven't lost a beat since them Shooters days of yore. Still remember your posts in July of '03 on the idiosyncracies of the Charter 44 Bulldog Pug. Downright pithy and true.--------jethrow

Bass Ackward
08-14-2005, 12:30 PM
Just wondering if anyone had any success loading cast boolits in a .458, in spite of it's fast 1/14 twist as compared to the traditional 45-70's 1/20"? Preferred boolit weights and powders, esp. surplus. Thank You, jethrow


Jethrow,

Seems about everyone covered the throat. I can tell you about the twist rate. I have a pair of 458X2s. One with a standard Shilean barrel and 14 twist. And one with a cut rifled Krieger barrel with .005 tall rifling and a 20" twist. Both throats are real close because they were cut with the same reamer. Both have 8 lands and grooves.

The 14 twist Shilean is the most accurate over all with lead, but you have to heat treat and hold the velocity down to get it. The 14 twist is more accuracte with lighter bullets believe it or not. The 20 twist prefers lead over 400 grains. The exact opposite is true for jacketed.

But the advantage of the 20 twist and tall rifling is that it allows top velocities with softer mixes where they would have been all over the place with the 14 twist. Example, 8 BHN goes over my standard at @ 1400 fps in the 14 twist and a 350 grain Keith. Same design and 8 BHN keeps chugging at 2000 fps where groups open above hunting applications. I seldom use mixes as soft as 8 BHN but I have quite a bit that needs to be used up. I hope this answers the twist rate part of your question.

canuck4570
08-14-2005, 03:53 PM
Cannuck here... I had many 458 in my possession ... Winchester . Ruger . ets. I hunt and shoot with it.... got a moose 2 years ago 49 incher....I was shooting a Saeco 540 gr with gaz check in front of 65 gr of 3031 wich give me 2014 fps average on chrono.... and 1 and a half inch groop constintly...I have shot it also with RCBS 405 GC with 59 gr of 3031 with 1886 fps on the chrone... very accurate.....1 inche most of the time...In short this caliber is verry accurate with all I shot it with..... I shoot all the time W.W. air cooled because it expands just great .... by the way the moose was at 250 yards and on the first shot it did not move att all ... thought I missed but a few seconds later he just drop right there..... the bullet past throught him making a harm size hole and the inside was like pulp. IMR 3031 seems to be the powder for full loads and 4749 for reduce loads...good luck.

jethrow strait
08-14-2005, 04:37 PM
Thanks Bass Ackward and Canuck45-70!

BA you shur gave me a jolt 'conventional wisdom" wise with some real meat and potatoes of the 14" twist .458. And speaking of food, hope you enjoyed that moose Cannuck; I thoroughly enjoyed hearing about it---and the load data as well. Gotta get going on this project!--------jethrow

felix
08-14-2005, 04:44 PM
The 14 twist Shilean is the most accurate over all with lead, but you have to heat treat and hold the velocity down to get it. The 14 twist is more accuracte with lighter bullets believe it or not. The 20 twist prefers lead over 400 grains. The exact opposite is true for jacketed. ... BA

BA, the last sentence says it all. The bet is that the smaller boolits in the Shilen are starting out straighter. Might try and find out why? Perhaps one of the lands in the Krieger is slightly taller? Heaven forbid one chamber is tilted! ... felix

Bass Ackward
08-14-2005, 10:46 PM
BA, the last sentence says it all. The bet is that the smaller boolits in the Shilen are starting out straighter. Might try and find out why? Perhaps one of the lands in the Krieger is slightly taller? Heaven forbid one chamber is tilted! ... felix

Felix,

Could be about the rifling, I never had it tested. But I doubt the chamber is off because everything is indicated up to the bore to the tenth. Even the reamer is monitored for stress.

The Shilean has fired considerably more jacketed and maybe a few lappers as well. Cut rifling is supposed to last longer and take considerably longer to break in for jacketed. Add to that the rifling is taller and that is not a plus for jacketed. Especially, Barnes solid copper. So I may not be broken in yet. At least by the base of the rifling where the seal with copper would be the hardest to obtain. But I never had any intention of using it for jacketed, once I smoothed the surface and closed the pores. I bought some 350 Hornadys right after the barrel arrived, but the box has cob webs on it now.

But who knows. Testing goes on continually with the 45s as they always give me something new to consider.

jethrow strait
08-22-2005, 04:06 PM
Well, the fine feedback on this thread and from local buds led me to a 1:22 twist barrel in .458 and finally today to a 24" magnum contour barrel not in .458 Win but in .450 Marlin. I don't need no steenkin long throat/freebore problemas. And the 300-405gr RCBS round flats seem more appealing than that 500 grainer. Besides, I'm so cheap that firing any boolit that weighs more than an ounce sets me off compulsively running down range--hot or not--to retrieve it. Here's to a thrifty and very accurate big-bore bolt gun, with more than enough cast boolit power for my purposes.-----jethrow

Linstrum
08-22-2005, 04:39 PM
Hey, there, Jethrow, you're doin' pretty good with the Marlin .450! That fine cartridge is what the Springfield .45-70 would have been if it had been invented after the perfection of smokeless powder. That chambering came on the scene like gangbusters a few years ago but has been kind of quiet with this group for some unknown reason. That cartridge is at the top of my list for my next acquisition in 0.458"-size bore equipment. What is that barrel going to be mounted on?

Bass Ackward
08-22-2005, 05:47 PM
Here's to a thrifty and very accurate big-bore bolt gun, with more than enough cast boolit power for my purposes.-----jethrow


Jethrow,

I want to be the first one to congradulate you and wish you good luck with your 45 caliber choice.

Thrifty? A 45? Ha! ha! And accurate? Ho! ho! It's like getting married all over again. In fact, I have been at it longer than I HAVE been married. [smilie=b:

jethrow strait
08-23-2005, 12:49 AM
Bass,well, er, thrifty, you know, relative to the .458 Win----and besides, I wont have to buy dies, having 2 sets of 45-70s and 1 of .458 Win already. And of course any ole magnum brass can be scrounged from the range and cut down to .458/2 American, as Barnes would call it. And, if you believe all that, you should also know I got into cast boolits to save money.

As for the platform, Lindstrum, it befits a peasant in his second childhood, a 110 magnum action, who even I can screw a barrel on to and set the headspace to perfection. Never owned one til a few years ago, esthetics I guess. Now, I've got three, and a plethora of barrels. Might well gain renoun as "SAVAGE JETHROW SWITCHBARREL" if I could ever get off my other projects.----jethrow

BruceB
08-23-2005, 01:23 AM
"Ho! ho! It's like getting married all over again. In fact, I have been at it longer than I HAVE been married."


It is to laff. I've heard the repeat-marriage situation described as,

"The second marriage is the triumph of HOPE over EXPERIENCE".

Truer words, etc etc.


I've thought about a .458 #1 Ruger from time to time. So far, I've eluded its clutches. My Sharps' .45-70 supplies all the input I need for .45 rifles....so far.

26Charlie
08-23-2005, 08:50 PM
Jethrow,
That .450 Marlin belt is longer than the regular belted cases, to prevent it being inadvertently fired in a 7mm Magnum or such like. I am not sure about if the cut-off regular belted case would chamber and headspace OK in the .450 Marlin. Maybe somebody knows about this?

45nut
08-23-2005, 09:23 PM
Indeed,that belt is uniquely 450 Marlin and no others. The 458x2 American as BA has so proferred as a better choice is my choice here as well. I had a 458x2 built 3-4 years ago on a P-14. I can assure you you cannot come up with a better thump for the money. I cut off 7mags,300 mags..ect ect. Whatever I see laying handy as cast-off's at the range or surplus to my needs. I did a test once,Rem 400JHP over a mild amount of canister. . Pointed at my 44mag spinner,remember rule 1? Dont point the muzzle at anything you dont intend to destroy? Well..I thought a bit more of the spinner than I did of the power of the 458 American and it jumped up and proved me quite wrong. At 25 yards it bucked,roared and picked that spinner up and tossed it a good 15',literally tossed it against my backstop and left my shoulder a bit tender also I might add. Upon retrieval of the spinners remains it was poked clear through as if by a laser beam,1/2" diameter clean through nad the legs that formally stood straight and tall were buckled,bent and mutilated. Rule number one ,,,that got my attn.
458x2 over the 450 Marlin,,you bet. And I even use 450 Marlin dies to reload it for spite.

jethrow strait
08-24-2005, 12:26 AM
26 Charlie, I was just joshin with Bass bout that thrift business. But I actually did have the option of going with Barnes' 458X2 wildcat, and decided with the flip of a coin to go with Marlene's commercial version instead. I mean how often do you wear out even a 45-70 case; I've had four rifles in that caliber over the past twenty years and don't recall ever wearing out a case---mangled a few though.

This smallest of the commercial 45 rifle cartridges since the dawn of the twentieth century, whatever the size of it's belt, in a c9lb scoped bolt gun should be the cat's meow as this range rat's 100/200yd cast boolit big bore bench gun. I'm sure not interested in it as a 'brush gun', in the spirit of all the commercial hype from Marlene(1895M), Winchester(94 Timber rifle), etc. That all seems like nonsense to me, especially in 6lb rifles, but I'm glad to have the 2" .458 cartridge for my own purposes. As much as I have enjoyed the 45-70 in various guises and with black and white powder over the years, I have never really been satisfied with it's accuracy on the whole.

45----anything peculiar to loading this 2'' belt? cast boolit loads you'd like to suggest, etc. Thank You,----------jethrow