45 acp

[Todd S]

I am currently casting for my XDM .45. I am using two different Lee molds. I am shooting the 200 SWC and the 230 TC. The TC is giving me better groups, so far. I am sizing using a .452 lyman sizing die, lubed with Carnauba Red. I am having a problem with a few of the rounds not chambering correctly every shooting session. It seems that lube is getting inside the chamber and keeping some of the following rounds from chambering. If I drop the round in the chamber by itself and release the slide, it will fire and eject normally. I have this problem even after wiping the noses of the all the boolits to make sure there is no lube outside of the case. I am using a Lee FCD. BTW this load is showing absolutely zero leading, so I think I have the boolit sized and lubed correctly. The SWC had a few chambering issues but I dropped the seating depth a little more and the feeding issues disappeared. The 230 TC cannot be seated any deeper without crimping on the cone part of the boolit. Has anyone run into this before?

Thanks,
Todd

[EMC45]

I used to load the SWC for my brother's XD. Never could get them to run right. It was a pump action pistol. The TC on the other hand will run all day. I load the TC with about 30 thou showing above the case mouth. Crimp just enough to remove the bell.

[Char-Gar]

Another satisfied used of the Lee FCD on pistol rounds with problems. I think I am seeing a trend here.

[Todd S]

So, should i just crimp with the seating die?

[Char-Gar]

So, should i just crimp with the seating die?

No, you should buy a taper crimp die of good make like RCBS or Redding. You should also wipe the bases of your bullets free from lubricant if you are not doing so already.

I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I have loaded 1/4 million of cast bullet rounds in the 45 ACP for use in 1911 pistols and have never had the problem you have. It is very straightforward process with very few issues. We have been loading this round for 100 years now, and it holds no secrets. Folks keep trying to reinvent the wheel and find new and better ways to do it and they wonder why they have problems.

[Todd S]

Thanks, I'll look for the crimp dies. I am using a styrofoam cushion in the sizing die. I do not get any lube on the base of the boolit. Is this the die you would recommend? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/709739/redding-taper-crimp-die-45-acp-45-auto-rim

[Smoke4320]

yes.. that will work fine

[PS Paul]

Welcome to the forum, Todd. Looks like you might get some good info from some fellas here....... Second the opinion on a taper-crimp die as opposed to the FCD. I have the taper crimp in .45 ACP from Lee and it works just fine. Certainly the RCBS and Redding taper-crimp dies are great products and will work for you as well. I've done both crimp/seat in one operation AND crimp then seat in two different operations. Latter tends to work best, but I still do both, depending upon the boolit I am using.

I have a feeling your problems will disappear when you taper crimp, but I would do any changes in steps, through a process of elimination, and check for the desired results.

Good luck!
PSP

[Char-Gar]

Todd...that is a good die, a very good die. It probably has instructions, but let me tell you how to adjust it the no sweat way. The purpose if to produce a case mouth that measures .470. There is no need to measure if you do the following.

1. Take a military or commercial 45 ACP round and with it in the shell holder, run the round up in the press as far as it will go. i.e. the top of the stroke.

2. Now screw the die in on the round as far as it will go. Get is as tight as you can using your hand only, no tools.

3. Now set the lock ring on the die and you are done.

This will produce a loaded round that is the same as a factory round, which is .470 on the case mouth. Very simple process.

I assume you know how to use the barrel of your pistol as a bullet seating depth gage. If not let us know and somebody will give you a hand.

[Larry Gibson]

If I use .452 sized bullets in my match chambered P14 it will fail to close into battery 2- 3 times per mag. This occurs with ammo loaded on the dillon SDB (has it's own propriety dies) or with Lee dies on a 550B or with Lyman dies on a single stage press. I use a Redding taper crimp die on the 550B and single stage and the SDB also taper crimps. Using the Lee 45 ACP FCD solves the problem as does sizing the bullets .451. I put the FCD in station 4 of the 550B or use it on all ammo loaded on the SDB in the single stage press.

The ammunition run through the Lee FCD is just as accurate and produces no leading in my P14, Colt Combat Commander, M1911 Series 70, Contender barrel or the M98 converted to 45 ACP. A few complain about the Lee FCD but it works for me and solved the problem.

Larry Gibson

[Todd S]

That's the funny part. I use the barrel of my gun as a depth guage. They ALL drop in and out easily and they seem to be the same depth as factory rounds. It only happens after I fire a few rounds. This also only seems to happen with the 230 TC boolits. The SWC's feed with no problems. They just do not group as well for me. I'm going to order the crimp die because I also have a sizing die for .357 sitting in my cart waiting for my next purchase. I'll update next week after I get it and can run a few through the gun.

[ncbearman]

Todd...that is a good die, a very good die. It probably has instructions, but let me tell you how to adjust it the no sweat way. The purpose if to produce a case mouth that measures .470. There is no need to measure if you do the following.

1. Take a military or commercial 45 ACP round and with it in the shell holder, run the round up in the press as far as it will go. i.e. the top of the stroke.

2. Now screw the die in on the round as far as it will go. Get is as tight as you can using your hand only, no tools.

3. Now set the lock ring on the die and you are done.

This will produce a loaded round that is the same as a factory round, which is .470 on the case mouth. Very simple process.

I assume you know how to use the barrel of your pistol as a bullet seating depth gage. If not let us know and somebody will give you a hand.

CharGar,

Can this result be accomplished by using the RCBS crimp/seat die and be done in one stage/stroke? I set mine up exactly the way you described. I too have been shooting 45acp for 40 years and have never had a separate crimp die. Not trying to re-invent the wheel here just wondering?

[MtGun44]

Inadequate TC can cause this, or a lead ring building up ahead of the case
mouth if you are seating and crimping at the same operation. You should
TC as a separate operation to about .471 or so.

Look for rifling marks on the boolit, too. You may need so seat a touch deeper.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

CharGar,

Can this result be accomplished by using the RCBS crimp/seat die and be done in one stage/stroke? I set mine up exactly the way you described. I too have been shooting 45acp for 40 years and have never had a separate crimp die. Not trying to re-invent the wheel here just wondering?

Well, if it works for you, it works for you and after 40 years there is no reason to change.

My RCBS 45 ACP dies are from 1980 and do a roll crimp. A roll crimp can be used, but is harder to adjust. The idea is to get a uniform .470 case mouth and I suppose there are multiple ways to get there.

The big difference between a roll crimp and taper crimp is a roll crimp can leave a little bulge in the case where it is turned over abruptly. A taper crimp won't do this.

The issue of seating and crimping in the same operation is just what Bill said above. When crimping onto the smooth side of a bullet the last little shove as the crimp is applied can push a small ring of alloy onto the case mouth. This isn't a problem with a bullet that has a crimp groove. Even then I seat and crimp in separate operations..just because. :-)

I am "old school" to the max and do not use a progressive loader and bulk loading is not something I want to do. Therefore I am not looking for short cuts, but the best ammo possible. I am willing to go through extra steps and take my time to do so. I enjoy the process of reloading, so this isn't a problem with me.

[historicfirearms]

Inadequate TC can cause this, or a lead ring building up ahead of the case
mouth if you are seating and crimping at the same operation. You should
TC as a separate operation to about .471 or so.

Look for rifling marks on the boolit, too. You may need so seat a touch deeper.

Bill

What Bill said.

The 230 truncated cone Lee is my favorite 45acp boolit. One other thing to look at is to make sure you are expanding the case mouth enough so that it doesn't cause lead shaving or lube "shaving". That can also build up in your chamber and cause problems.

Before I knew better, I used the FCD on 45acp and never experienced problems. With 9mm, it sized down my boolits too much and caused leading. If you don't want to buy a seperate taper crimp die you can remove the carbide sizer on the FCD and just use it to crimp.

[David2011]

Todd,

There's already lots of good advice here. I've run into the same issue with truncated cones in .40 and .45 when checking them with a case gage. Every match round I load goes through a case gage before going into the ammo box. If the boolits are seated too far out the full diameter front edge will hang up on the case gage which has no leade- just a square shoulder that catches the OD of the boolit. Now, "too far out" is a variable and debatable term in this case. Too far out for the case gage will still chamber easily due to the rifling leade giving the shoulder of the boolit a little space. A taper crimp die is a must IMO. I have gotten by with a roll crimp before I learned about taper crimp dies but it's not as reliable as a taper crimp because it's so dependent on all cases being exactly the same length. Sizing boolits smaller "fixed" the problem at the cost of the boolits being undersized.

Most of my chambering problems have been traced back to carbon buildup in the chamber, mostly from shooting very light loads. A good carbon solvent will clean it out pretty easily. Shaved lead, as mentioned previously, can also build up in the front of the chamber and cause the same symptoms.

Charcoal lighter fluid makes a very good and inexpensive boolit lube solvent to clean up sized boolits and loaded rounds- just use appropriate precautions for such a flammable product.

David

[Char-Gar]

Perhaps, one of the reasons I don't have the problems that some do with 1911 and other firearms is I clean them after they have been fired without fail. I do not allow powder, lead or bullet lube to build up.

I tend to forget that the younger set of shooters don't clean their guns as often as we once did. This is evidenced by the "Quest for a clean burning powder", that I read about so often on boards such as thing. I need to remember to mention how important keeping your weapon can be in eliminating many issues that folks seem to have. It just never occurs to me that a dirty gun might be the problem as I never have dirty guns.

I have been mixing and using Ed's Red for some years now and it get the job done every time.

[gray wolf]

Just as a side note, if your pistol is a 1911 with internal extractor DO NOT drop a round in the chamber and close the slide. Bad Ju Ju for the extractor claw, it was not meant to jump over the case head--you will ruin it in a short time. Also while I'm at it, don't drop the slide on an empty chamber--that will screw up your sear hammer hook relationship and could ruin a nice trigger job.

[mdi]

No, you should buy a taper crimp die of good make like RCBS or Redding. You should also wipe the bases of your bullets free from lubricant if you are not doing so already.

I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I have loaded 1/4 million of cast bullet rounds in the 45 ACP for use in 1911 pistols and have never had the problem you have. It is very straightforward process with very few issues. We have been loading this round for 100 years now, and it holds no secrets. Folks keep trying to reinvent the wheel and find new and better ways to do it and they wonder why they have problems.
Exactly! I haven't said it quite so clearly, but I agree. I've had more problems when I tried an FCD than I ever had reloading "normally"! I bought one out of curiosity and it now resides in a landfill somewhere in Southern Oregon...

[MtGun44]

"FCD resides in a landfill. . ." LOL! Good move.

Same as Char-Gar - easily 1/4 million .45 ACP in 30+ yrs of IPSC and the functional failures is microscopic. Different
boolits, different dies, etc add unknowns. Early XDs have issues with SWCs but later are fixed. IME load an H&G 68 at .452
to 1.250 to 1.260 LOA, taper crimp as a separate operation to .471 or .470, and add enough fast powder to get the
cases out of the gun reliably and you are done with function in 99% of the guns. Individual gun anamolies will no
doubt occur. Now for accy, there are different needs but not in the TC or diam.

Bill

[fredj338]

The XD has a rep for short throating the bbls, sounds like the XDM is the same. The LFCD doesn't really fix this. It is a OAL issue, you don't want any part of the bullet hitting the lands. The sharp shoulder on a SWC only makes it more critical.

[Char-Gar]

I have no experience reloading for any 45 ACP autoloader other than 1911s. I have had all sorts of barrels including various milsurp, Colt, Colt NM, milsurp NM, Bar-Sto and a few others. I have never had one that choked on .452 bullets and had some tight match chambers.

Of late, I have taken to doing a little work in front of the chamber on the edge of the barrel where the rifling starts. I use 600 grit lapping compound on a 30-06 case (for a lap) and lap that area. This removed any burrs and machine hickies, plus give about a .0005 short taper/throat into the rifling. This does not affect headspace in the least, but does make for a slick running pistol with all sorts of cast bullets.

[jonp]

No, you should buy a taper crimp die of good make like RCBS or Redding. You should also wipe the bases of your bullets free from lubricant if you are not doing so already.

I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I have loaded 1/4 million of cast bullet rounds in the 45 ACP for use in 1911 pistols and have never had the problem you have. It is very straightforward process with very few issues. We have been loading this round for 100 years now, and it holds no secrets. Folks keep trying to reinvent the wheel and find new and better ways to do it and they wonder why they have problems.
Can you explain why useing a seating/crimping die like a rcbs carbide does not work as well as doing it seperately? You are still adjustng the crimp the same way.
I also have run into this feeding prob with non- 1911 45acp's.

[Char-Gar]

Can you explain why useing a seating/crimping die like a rcbs carbide does not work as well as doing it seperately? You are still adjustng the crimp the same way.
I also have run into this feeding prob with non- 1911 45acp's.

Please see my post No. 14 (4th paragraph) above for an answer to your question. As a aside, the sizing dies can be made from carbide, the seating dies are regular steel.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I always use a taper crimp die in a separate operation from seating in my auto pistol rounds (.380 ACP, 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP). If the gun does have a really short throat, you might need to seat the bullets a little deeper. A little lapping on the lead might help a lot. I have even improved some with firelapping (light loads seated deep with fine lapping compound on the part where it hits the lead, single load from magazine, maybe only 20 - 50 required).

[judgecrater]

Perhaps, one of the reasons I don't have the problems that some do with 1911 and other firearms is I clean them after they have been fired without fail. I do not allow powder, lead or bullet lube to build up.

I tend to forget that the younger set of shooters don't clean their guns as often as we once did. This is evidenced by the "Quest for a clean burning powder", that I read about so often on boards such as thing. I need to remember to mention how important keeping your weapon can be in eliminating many issues that folks seem to have. It just never occurs to me that a dirty gun might be the problem as I never have dirty guns.

I have been mixing and using Ed's Red for some years now and it get the job done every time.
Clean after each use and many problems will be eliminated. I too mix up Ed's Red for a solvent.

[jonp]

Please see my post No. 14 (4th paragraph) above for an answer to your question. As a aside, the sizing dies can be made from carbide, the seating dies are regular steel.
I see. I ordered the die put up in the link.

[RobS]

After shooting and you have a round that doesn't go full battery take the round out of the chamber and look closely at the end of the chamber. Is there some lead shavings or a small ring of lead at the end of the chamber that is in that lube. This will keep a round from going all the way into the chamber and prevent the firearm from going full battery. Basically the throat is tight and short as well as has a sharper angle to it and the boolit can scrap off as it leaves the case and enters the throat leaving a little bit of lead each shot until there is a build up preventing the fire arm from fully chambering a round.

I have had this issue before with my own XD so I have experience here with what you may be experiencing. By the way Lee does make good dies and their taper 45 auto die (not the FCD) works just fine with .452 boolits however you should be fine with the Redding die too.

If you do find the end of the chamber with a bit of scraped off lead then simply seat the boolit so the brass is ever so slightly past the top drive band and starts in on the cone or ogive of the bullet. The COAL will be short but so is the boolit itself so simply work at the min. powder charge and work up. Your XD should cycle these rounds just fine and IIRC you will be around 1.20" COAL or so.

Ultimately I worked my XD barrel by taking a brass lap/300 grit lapping compound and smoothing and lengthening my barrels throat but I did for the longest time shoot the Lee 230 grain TC boolit by seating deep and taper crimping just past the front drive band; shot countless rounds that way.

[bigboredad]

The xd is supposed to havea match grade barrel and when friends of mine that have match grade barrels cannot use the same ammo that feeds andfunctions flawessflawless in my guns unless I run it thru lfcd unless they are loaded in Remington brass. I first would double check your c.o.l. then double check your crimp. I have had more problems with not enough crimp than too much crimp

[Cherokee]

I have put over 5,000 rounds thru my XDM 5.25 45 ACP. The only time I have any feeding problem (4 documented) is because the barrel chamber and feed ramp are crudded up with cast bullet residue, essentially lube residue. The load I use is midrange, hence more carbon, with either the Lee 200 SWC or the Lee 230 TC. I generally don't clean the gun until about 3-400 rounds have been fired. I have found the chamber to be a little short throated but an OAL of 1.245" for the 200 and 1.185" for the 230 works for me. I taper crimp at .470"

[Todd S]

I got the Redding die in today. I ran a factory round all the way up. I then hand tightened the TCD on top of the round. I then ran a blank with a 200SWC seated. The final crimp measurement was .4735. Almost like the case bounced back to a larger diameter. Haven't done a test feed yet. I'll try the same procedure with the 230TC boolits tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range and run some loads downrange.

[Char-Gar]

When you set die on a factory rounds, put as much muscle on it as you can without using tools. Tighten the ring while maintaining pressure on the die. There can be slop in the threads of the die and the press. 4735 sound a hair big to me. .470 - .471 would be a good number.

[Todd S]

I shot the rounds that I loaded. I shot both the 200 SWCs and 230TC. The groupings seemed to tighten up a little. I shot 10 of each off bags, then two handed for the other 90. I had 2 FTFeed on the TCs. Same as before. There was a smear of melted lube on the outside of the case. I ran through all 100 SWCs with only 1 FTFeed. That was a round that wasn't seated quite as deep as the others. I think it was the first round that I seated. It ended up a little longer than the rest. I adjusted the seating stem a little deeper and the rest were solid.

Again, the TCs grouped a little better. I'm going to load up some more like Char-Gar said and crimp them a little tighter. I am just a little concerned with the amount of extra force needed to crimp them that tight. I'll take a couple of pics after I load them.

[RobS]

Todd:

Do yourself a favor and seat the TC boolit as others and I have suggested. I looked at my notes and I was seating at 1.19-1.20 and another fellow on here said 1.185. Then simply adjust the TC crimp die be at .471-.472 and if you have to .470. You are simply working at this too hard. Many have shot the Lee TC boolit in their XD's without problems once the COAL and crimp was taken care of; listen to a few people who have done it before and not reinvent the wheel.

[RobS]

The XD has a rep for short throating the bbls, sounds like the XDM is the same. The LFCD doesn't really fix this. It is a OAL issue, you don't want any part of the bullet hitting the lands. The sharp shoulder on a SWC only makes it more critical.

My point here.

[prs]

DO NOT put your Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die in the land fill. Even if you hate it for its original intended purpose, it can be useful OFF LABEL. The taper crimp insert will fit a larger caliber CFCD or just about any spare Lee Powder Through die you may already and then you have a serviceable dedicated taper crimp die. The bottom section could also be used for this if you knock out the carbide ring, but that die is also useful if you have generous chambers and thus can use it as a push through size die (bulge buster style) that gives a very slightly larger finished sized case to fit our fat lead boolits. You will still need to use an internal sizer to open it a bit, but less work hardening of the case mouth. That larger caliber bottom section can also serve to hold the taper crimp fixture of a smaller caliber.

prs

[ku4hx]

My most oft used 45 ACP boolit is a Lee traditional lube groove 190 grain SWC. My most favorite 45 ACP boolit is Lee's 230 grain tumble lube TC. I tumble lube both with very good success. The reason the SWC is the most oft used is because it was the first six cavity Lee 45 mold I bought and I cast a few thousand of the little buggers. Our two KP90s favor .451" boolits so that's what I use.

My TC boolits seat such that a tiny bit of bearing surface is above the cartridge mouth. I have no idea how much, whatever it is it works so I stopped there. The pic is a slightly older loading; current boolits are seated a hair further out.

I taper crimp all semi auto cartridges and have no use for Lee's straight wall FCD. The version for bottle neck cartridges works very well for me though.
72457

[ncbearman]

195gr, RCBS 45-201 converted hp, over 5.0gr of 231, sized to .452, lubed with Emmert's recipe, 1.216 OAL, roll crimp just enough to take out the bell from the expander.
Done on my RCBS Turret press. I am not one either to go quantity. I enjoy each boolit made :o
No leading. The barrel is if I have shot j words all day.
3" @ 30 feet all day long. 2" if I take my time. I love this gun!
I also load a 225gr RN version of this, but mostly the hp.

However..............I may consider A separate taper crimp per chargar's suggestion in post #14.


72475 72476

[ultramag]

I suspect the seating deeper advice is right on for the Springfield and this boolit. I've recently started loading this boolit and even seated at 1.165 OAL and crimping in a separate station from seating I still have a few failures to return to battery in my XDS. This occurs while feeding flawlessly in at least 4 other 1911's, one being a Kimber with a match barrel. The rds. also appear to pass the plunk test better than some of the 1911's but they still hang up. Also, rds. that chamber will hang up still if you pull the slide back as if you were checking the chamber....it is a very tight chamber with virtually no throat it seems.

FWIW, in Lyman's 4th Ed. Cast Bullet Handbook, this is one of the boolits they give data for in .45 Auto. Their suggested COL is 1.170 so even some of the COL's passed to you previously in this thread are significantly over that. I'm debating rather I want to take mine down another .005" to 1.160" and see if I can get it 100% reliable in the XDS or not. [smilie=1:

[MtGun44]

+1 on TC as it's own operation. I have run TC as tight at .464 but nowdays I crimp
to .469-471 range.

This one of the most common problems with .45 ACP.

Bill

[Todd S]

I finally got a chance to get to the range. I shot 100 total. I am thoroughly impressed. I crimped 50 to .470 and 50 to .469. I had no fail to feed with .469 and one fail to feed with .470. Again it had lube smeared on the outside of the case. Groupings were also impressive(for me). I was using 4.8gr of W231. I'm going to play with the load a little, but I think I'm almost there. Thanks for the help everyone.

[MikeS]

195gr, RCBS 45-201 converted hp, over 5.0gr of 231, sized to .452, lubed with Emmert's recipe, 1.216 OAL, roll crimp just enough to take out the bell from the expander.
Done on my RCBS Turret press. I am not one either to go quantity. I enjoy each boolit made :o
No leading. The barrel is if I have shot j words all day.
3" @ 30 feet all day long. 2" if I take my time. I love this gun!
I also load a 225gr RN version of this, but mostly the hp.

However..............I may consider A separate taper crimp per chargar's suggestion in post #14.


72475 72476

If you look at the boolit standing between the two that are on their sides you will see a ring of lead that's because of crimping in the seating die in one operation! If you crimp in a separate operation you will eliminate this problem. Most people don't realize that Lee makes a taper crimping die (Not the fcd) that sells for about $10.00 that does the job of taper crimping just as well as a $25.00 redding TC die does. Before I got a dedicated taper crimping die I simply took the powder thru expanding die (which I wasn't using) and removed the expander and replaced it with the crimping ring from the FCD to make an adjustable taper crimping die that didn't size my boolits too. I added a Bulge Buster kit to the remaining FCD body and use it to pre-size any range brass I get that's been shot thru a glock or other gun that doesn't fully support the case. That gave me 2 working dies where before I had 2 dies I didn't use, all for the cost of the Bulge Buster kit.

[beppe]

true! the LFCD, narrows the bullets, I bought a taper crimp, for every pistol caliber I use and also for 7,62 x54.


vero ! il LFCD , restringe i proiettili , io ho comprato un taper crimp,per ogni calibro da pistola che uso e anche per il 7,62x54

[Two Rivers]

I'll have to try a TC die.

[MtGun44]

In my experience, 80+% of the problems with failure to close on .45 ACP is no or inadequate TC. In the IPSC
days, I used to TC down to .464 or so, my rule of thumb was to push 1/2 the thickness of the case mouth into
the boolit. Nowdays I set to .471 max, and usually get a bit tighter than that, around .469-468 and just leave it.

A few thousandths too tight doesn't hurt, a few too big will cause occasional jams. You choose.

Bill

[trixter]

When I first reloaded for myXDM, I was using Lee 230gr RN and had a few problems because I tried to go by the recommended 'OAL'. I experimented with shorter 'OAL' and cured the problem. I then ventured into the land of Semi Wad Cutter boolits. I started by seating them to where they would cycle the gun nicely and measured that bunch of Boolits (5 at a time). Set the seating die there and have been happy ever since. I taper crimp them to .469/.470 and use a case gauge to check them now and again. Every gun is a little different in what they like and don't like, so just work with it till you and your gun are happy. One of the previous posts mentioning setting the seating die to match a factory round, and that is a good place to start. Another thing; look at the boolits before you put them in the casing during the process, if needed wipe off excess lube, keep the die as clean as possible. I remove mine from the press and clean it well about every 700 to 800 rounds.

[jonp]

I just made up some 175 lswc boolits. TC to .472 with OAL at 2.22. Using this with 5.5gr w231. These cycle my Kahr CW45 nice and feed fine but I do have a question.

I notice that at this OAL the case mouth is over the driving band and up on the shoulder a little so the boolit looks recessed into the case. Is there any downside to this?