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View Full Version : HELP!........375 Winchester 94 big bore



8mmshooter
08-12-2005, 06:58 PM
I need some of your expert opinion. I have a chance to purchase a never fired .375 big bore winchester 94. I would like your opinion on this caliber for deer as well as a fair price to offer for this rifle . Anyone have any idea's as to what this would be worth? He also has a colt python 3" barreled revolver blued finish that has had 3 cylinders full shot through it .Do you folks have any idea what this would be worth as well?Thanks: 8mmshooter

Jumptrap
08-12-2005, 07:25 PM
Neither one of those guns worth a ****. Better tell me where the owner is so I can help him dispose of that junk.

Honestly, I wouldn't walk across the road for that Colt....but that 375 BB is a fine rifle. I've had 3 of them, kept trading until I found one new in the box.....wish I had kept #2 though..it was just as nice and prettier. Anyway, prices have soared...can't say I think they are worth it..even though I paid it. I gave $400 for mine maybe 3 years ago. I'd expect anyhing less than that a bargain now for a NIB gun.

No_1
08-12-2005, 07:33 PM
I like this caliber. Got the itch when I saw what Bruceb (I believe) had spoken of the one he had in a Ruger #3. I have since purchased one of those #3's to add to my collection of #3's.

I personally believe they would smack the poop out of a deer if conditions were right. There was a gentleman I met on the last board who had a #3 in .375. He was very pleased with it's performance on deer. Sent me some pics of his success. We connected because he wanted a #3 in 30-40 and knew I had one. I turned him on to a gentleman who had a 30-40 barrel that was screwed off a #3 that that the owner wished to re-barreled to 30-30. Last I heard, he was getting the work done.

I have been watching the levers go anywhere from ~$400 used to $600+ if they were brand spanking new. I would love one of those to add to my lever collection but when the time was right the money was not and when the money was right the time was not.

Just think, when they first came out you could have walked down to the local store and got one for around $200......

Bret4207
08-12-2005, 08:23 PM
Jeeze, Jump and I agree agian. If you can get the Python for under $400.00 grab it and ask $600.00 from someone enamoured with the Python mystique.
(I will now be attacked by someone who owns a Python that will shoot 1 hole groups at 100 yards!)

cabezaverde
08-12-2005, 08:24 PM
Great caliber....it can be kind of finicky with cast though.

I have had 4 guns in my life in 375 Winchester, it is one of my favorites. Currently I have Ruger #3 I bought NIB at a show, and a Marlin 375. Around here, the rifle you are talking about would probably be 350 - 450.

I can personally attest to it being one of those calibers that hits harder than the paper ballisitics indicate.

If the one you are looking at is an XTR (not angle eject) they have long throats. They will also feed and eject a much longer OAL cartridge than the factory length. Seat a fat bullet out near the lands, and you are well on your way to shooting cast with it. I cannot speak to how the chambers are cut on the angle eject models.

45 2.1
08-12-2005, 08:41 PM
Jeeze, Jump and I agree agian. If you can get the Python for under $400.00 grab it and ask $600.00 from someone enamoured with the Python mystique.
(I will now be attacked by someone who owns a Python that will shoot 1 hole groups at 100 yards!)

Gee Bret, there are a few Pythons out there that will just about do that. If you didn't learn on a Colt, then you probably won't understand.

45 2.1
08-12-2005, 08:44 PM
The Win BB and the Marlin 375 really like paper patched bullets also.

moodyholler
08-12-2005, 08:58 PM
I had a Ruger # 3 and at 150 yards with 220 gr Speer FN bullets and 4198, poked holes straight througha little buck. Same on both sides. moodyholler

cabezaverde
08-12-2005, 09:15 PM
I had a Ruger # 3 and at 150 yards with 220 gr Speer FN bullets and 4198, poked holes straight througha little buck. Same on both sides. moodyholler

Moody,

What caliber was your #3 ? Speer does not make a .375 220, possibly a Hornady ?

45nut
08-12-2005, 11:32 PM
I am the lucky one that got the gun Jumptrap talked about there and I am here to tell ya I am as happy now as I was when that gun first arrived. I am also here to tell you that the 375 will indeed leave a bruise on ya if ya forget to hold tight against your shoulder. A most ample package for "the hole" ya need to stackem' up if ya get the chance. I won't be selling mine.
The 220 should be labeled hornady I believe....nice nuf' slug for the FLGC type.

Four Fingers of Death
08-13-2005, 04:25 AM
I have a XTR 375 Big Bore with a peep sight. I am very fond of it. they currently sell for around $650 in Australia. Of course as soon as you buy one, every gunshop owner will tell you they had one in stock for ages which they couldn't sell or gave away for a song. I have a frien who isa collector of sorts and has a brand new one, with the labels still attached. It has been on his rack since new and had just been dusted and oiled. It has never been cycled (I'll soon fix that). He is considering selling it. I don't need two of these things, but I am tempted.
Mick.

I have an RCBS mould for this, I think it is a 250 gn, it should work well.

Bret4207
08-13-2005, 08:05 AM
45 2.1- I DID learn on a Colt. Army Special 32-20. I'll never get rid of it. Got some others too. But, the Pythons are over priced for what they are IMHO. Haven't seen one yet that will shoot with a Smith 19 or 27/28, same barrel length. That being said, I have no doubt there are some that will, I just haven't seen them. There's an idea out there that goes with the Pythons, Auto Mags, Uzi's, Glocks that the name means something extra. I never bought that idea.

StarMetal
08-13-2005, 11:07 AM
Trooper Bret

You said that you just never seen a Python that shot good. Maybe what you saw was a person who just didn't shoot the Python good. The Python just didn't get it's reputation for nothing. A company just can't make a gun famous and supposely superior from the get go day one first issue. But I guess we could argue this Colt versus Smith just as I will say I bet there are more Remington rifles out there that outshoot Winchesters. I've seen mighty few Winchesters and Ruger impress me then I've see Remington, Savage, CZ, and Sako. Just my two pence.

Joe

Nrut
08-13-2005, 01:09 PM
Does any one have any "exprience" with good shooting cast bullet loads (3" or better) at vel. 2000fps or more with a 250gr.bullet in the Winchester 94 BB???....I have been reading/searching for castbullet loads in the 250gr. range on the net for over a year now as I have one of these rifles....everyone talks about what a great cart. the .375 is but I have yet to see a accurate load....the loaded cast rounds that came with the rifle will do 6" to 9" inches at 50 yds. using a lyman bullet and RL-7 one of the better powders for this cart....I have not reloaded for this rifle myself ..yet .. as I have'nt had time... but hope to next spring....thanks for any info that you may have .....mic

onceabull
08-13-2005, 01:35 PM
Nrut":Try some of the stuff Paco K. wrote up( at least part of which can be found in the "articles" section @ "Leverguns" .com) some caution recommended with his "Max"loads,but that applies to more than the 375 Winnie..onceabull

Nrut
08-13-2005, 04:00 PM
Thanks onceabull...I should order Paco's CD book on lever actions...thanks again...mic

Bret4207
08-13-2005, 09:03 PM
Joe- This is what I look like when I'm ignoring you.

Urny
08-13-2005, 10:32 PM
8mmshooter, if you can get that Python in that condition for $400 I'll give ya $600 for it and we'll both be happy. Sorry about some of the other guys.

moodyholler
08-14-2005, 12:12 AM
Right-o on the 220's. the 235's I had were Speer. SOrry about that!!! moodyholler

Four Fingers of Death
08-14-2005, 08:12 AM
I have a new RCBS mould at me (buried somewhere). It is a 250Gn I think. I bought it years ago when I saw it cheap. I always knew I'd end up with a 375, only I thought that it would be a H&H. I also bought gaschecks, talk about planning ahead.

The Lee mould looks ok too what are these moulds (the RCBS and the Lee) like in the Big Bore.

No doubt I will be able to get back to casting soon.
Mick.

cabezaverde
08-14-2005, 10:54 AM
My RCBS was running too small. I use the Lee mold exclusively now.

Pilgrim
08-14-2005, 11:20 AM
The 94 BB in .375 is like most of the rifles & cartridges out there, some shoot well from the git-go and others take some fussin'. The ones that shoot well from the git-go usually do so because you "stumbled" on the right combination of alloy, bullet mould & size, etc. right off the bat. I will admit to some cartridges being way more difficult than others. The .25-20 WCF is one that has bugged more than one of us on this board. I suspect it has to do with the small bore + small case capacity which makes any variation large compared to the same variation is say a .30 cal. Another problem cartridge/rifle appears to be the 6.5 X 55 or ay of the other fast twist "cartridges" if you try for velocities much over 1600 fps. The concensus on this board is that boolit spin rate has as much to do with accuracy as does the other factors. Too slow and you have stability problems...this limits the upper end of usable bullet weights. Too fast and the bullet comes apart or otherwise deforms enough to go awry...this makes the fast twist rifles/cartridges tough to work with if velocity greater than ~ 1600 fps is needed/wanted. But back to the .375 in the 94 BB.

My BB is one of the earlier ones w/o the safety. The only bullet I've tried in it is the RCBS 37-250. Out of my alloy & mould it casts right at .376 and ~ 260 gr. I have been using surplus WC680 using AA1680 data. I think velocities with this weight bullet is reaching the upper pressure limits right about 2000 fps. My eyes limit the accuracy with my rifle (open sights) but less than 3" at 100 yards hasn't been a problem. FWIW...Pilgrim

Frank46
08-15-2005, 03:52 AM
8mmshooter, buy the darn thing. I've only seen three since moving down here to louisiana. Mine was the best so far. One had rust halfway up the bbl, mine I bought and the third had a rather lousey stock refinish job. I paid $450 for mine but the other two were going for way more. Some of the dealers down here think that their firearm that they have for sale is the world's best. Prices in houston for the same items are at least $100 cheaper. Now that is a gun show to go with a backpack and a pocket of money. Heck the class 3 stuff alone is worth the trip. Frank

Nrut
08-15-2005, 10:47 AM
My BB is one of the earlier ones w/o the safety. The only bullet I've tried in it is the RCBS 37-250. Out of my alloy & mould it casts right at .376 and ~ 260 gr. I have been using surplus WC680 using AA1680 data. I think velocities with this weight bullet is reaching the upper pressure limits right about 2000 fps. My eyes limit the accuracy with my rifle (open sights) but less than 3" at 100 yards hasn't been a problem. FWIW...Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim.... I have the same mold,same rifle (pre-safety) and surplus H-116 same as 680 according to the vendor I bought it from....so my ques. is what is the alloy that you use for your .375 BB bullets???....3" with open sites and cast bullets is good enough for me.....thanks mic

Pilgrim
08-15-2005, 01:54 PM
I've been using the same alloy for nearly everything the last few years. Guess I've been lucky as it has worked in everything so far. Either that or I'm not as picky re: performance. My standard alloy is WW + 5% magnum shot + 1.5% 95-5 solder. The alloy air cools to BHN 14-15. I use the magnum shot to increase the % of arsenic (mostly) although it does slightly increase the antimony as well. The purpose of the added arsenic is in case I decide I need to heat treat (quench) my boolits. The arsenic acts as a catalyst re: hardening. All of my rifle boolits use GC's while the pistol boolits do not, except for the "magnum" loads (e.g. RCBS 45-300-SWC in my Ruger Bisley). I do not recall the exact charge of WC680 I'm using, but found the basic recipe in one of my loading manuals, and then started working with the WC680 powder using AA1680 (or WW680...I don't recall right off hand right now) data. I have not checked Paco Kellys' site as yet for his loads, but intend to do so one of these days.

I'm curious as to how the rest of you-all think about the experiments performed by P.O. Ackley with the M94 rifle. As an experiment re: strength, he loaded them hot, and in one case even took the locking lugs out of the receiver and fired the hot loads. Apparently the cases held the chamber walls tightly enough the bolt did not move even with the lugs removed. When I think of the BB 94, if the Ackley work was valid (and I have no reason to doubt it), was the beefed up receiver due to the risk of somebody using a chamber with oil in it and thus preventing the cases from gripping the chamber walls...or is it just another case of lawyers designing rifles for us? If the cases grip the walls as Ackley showed, then the pressure limit is truly the brass limit which is prolly around 60k psi. I don't plan on loading my BB 94 that hot, but the upper limit of the recommended loads would be slightly conservative if one believes the case gripping idea. Just curious. Pilgrim

Bullshop
08-15-2005, 02:11 PM
Pilgrim
I think but am not shure that the test Ackley did with the 94 Win was with the 30/30 AI trying to proove that the straight sided case had less back thrust than the tappered factory version. I think what you will find regarding pressure regardless of the beefed up receiver and having more to do with the rear locking arraingment that at about 40,000 extraction will get noticebly sticky indicating a max pressure.
BIC/BS

felix
08-15-2005, 02:56 PM
Pilgrim, case stretch is probably the best indicator of too much pressure for the bolt system. Any undue swelling on new cases, especially in the head area, is a good warning that the cases are weak/narrow, chamber too wide, or chamber too long. Cut the load if these measurements are squirrely, and most especially if the primer pocket becomes looser (using same primer!). ... felix

Trailblazer
08-15-2005, 04:11 PM
Another interesting and often overlooked detail of Ackley's test is that he used factory ammo in the improved chamber! If the theoreticians are right the pressures that were developed were below standard 30-30 pressures.

I believe that Winchester attempted to strengthen the Big Bore because the SAAMI pressure for the 375 is 52,000 cup as opposed to the 30-30 pressure of something around 40,000 cup. The way they strengthened it doesn't make sense. My experiments with my Big Bore 94 rebarreled to the shortened 7mm RM lead me to believe that the bane of the 94 design is the base diameter of the cartridge. Let's assume the strength of the brass is the limiting factor in max pressures. Then consider that the area of a cartridge's base increases by the square and the circumference of the case increases in a linear fashion. The circumference of the case, together with case wall thickness, determines the cross sectional area of the brass available to resist the pressure. Thus the larger diameter case has less brass per unit of base area to contain pressure and so the larger diameter case will fail at a lower pressure than the smaller case.

As a result, I believe the 94's chambered in the 375 and other cases with the .421" base diameter have a greater margin of strength than the 307, 356 or 444 with their .473" base diameter. My 7mm has a base diameter of about .510" and cases stretch badly and the action sticks shut at what have to be fairly moderate pressures that I estimate at between 40,000 to 45,000 cup.