Cast boolit in a Hornady brass case

[Matthew Stahlecker]

I've been a reader of this site for a long time, but have never posted on this site. So call me a newbie... I have a question. I have a 45-70 guide gun and love shooting it. I have primarily shot the Hornady Lever ammo, and have not been disappointed. Owning this rifle though has spurred on other hobbies. Namely, cast bullets. I am casting 405 grain Lee bullets and want to shoot them so bad. But...I have not been able to find new brass with all of the gun **** (BTW, I live in little California, COLORADO). So in reloading I know that I shorten the brass for Hornady rounds. They also caution in the Hornady book that the shortened brass is ONLY for the Hornady ammo. I am wondering though, if I stayed with tame powder loads, what would happen with the 405 grain ammo? Do I dare try? Could I over pressure the case? Now see what the anti-gun morons have gone and done? I always tell my kids to follow directions and now I'm trying to seek advice on if I could break with the directions. Any advise would be appreciated.

[Sensai]

The problem with LeverEvolution cases isn't the they are weaker or anything. It's just the length. Because the case is shorter it doesn't crimp the same as a normal length case and for the same overall cartridge length there is less of the boolit in the case. Both of these can be compensated for, but it's not the best way to start out loading cast boolits. I would save those cases for use with Hornady bullets and continue your search for regular cases for cast.

[Matthew Stahlecker]

What is the length of your cases? Provided that they are not too long, cases should be 2.10", load to 2.55" or however long you can and still chamber and eject loaded rounds. Too short means that you may not be able to crimp, depending upon your dies, but you can back off the powder charges a bit and be safe. IIRC, the Marlin 45-70s are fine with 28kpsi loads, and at that level with 405s, recoil will be stout. I want to say that the case trim length in the Hornady book is 2.10. I will double check this evening.

[rond]

I sort the shorter brass and just adjust the seat and crimp die a little deeper. I load for a Sharps replica and keep the loads light for that rifle but also shoot them in my Marlin. I use the 405 Lee also.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

The use of non standard brass for some of Hornady's gummy nose loads was not well thought out by a normally good company. Back to the drawing board boys.

Some dies apparently will not adjust for enough to properly process the short brass, but my Hornady dies did just fine when I made up some test loads for a friend.

These were cast bullet loads, and this Ol'Coot simply won't go there with the gummy nose, so they aren't in the picture for me.

These non-standard brass are not a great lot shorter then standard, just enough to be a pain. So powder charges when loading the FTX brass should only need to be reduced slightly if at all, unless your already loading on the "wild" side of 45/70 load info.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Matthew Stahlecker]

I loaded 6 test loads, light, with Unique. I will comment on how they shot in a few days.

[44man]

They are not that shorter. If you can crimp, I don't see any problems with any dies, use the brass. Trim length is 2.095" with max of 2.105"
Seat, crimp dies never bottom on the shell holder.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Short enough that they cause some folk problems for what ever reason, and short enough to required die adjustment between standard brass and the gummy nose brass.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Matthew Stahlecker]

Here is a photo of the 45-70 in Hornady brass and a second with a 44 mag that I just did. I've only been casting for the past 3 months, so I am very new to this art. Any advise is appreciated. I know it's hard to tell someone off of just a picture, but I invite criticism none the less.

Matthew7201972020

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Look good from where I sit Matthew, and welcome aboard.

By the way, you may already know this, but since your a new loader, I 'll throw it in anyway.

Reloading from store bought, factory loaded ammo is the real expensive way to go. Much better to buy new bulk brass, plus buying in bigger lots helps your load consistancy due to the fact that your dealing with 1 lot number of brass and not many. Also do not mix brands of brass if you loading anything like max loads in a rifle, uless you have at least weighted the cases to avoid those which are overly heavy. Heavy cases means thick case wall with in turn equals less internal powder capacity and the possibly of overly high pressures if this is not taken into account.

Then for the 45/70 and likely for others where Starline brass is available, save some money and buy Starline brass rather then Remington or Winchester.

Starline brass is a good product and a bunch cheaper then the other two.

I personally have had a bad experence in a large group buy from Starline, so do not like to deal directly with them. However, Places like Buffalo Arms are good to deal with and they eaither have the brass or do not and your not stuck with a long back order.

The consistancy thing goes on to buying primers in minimum of a thousand (once we can again buy components in a normal fashion) and powder - once a load has been developed - in multiple pounds all of the same lot number.

Anyway, your loads look good on this end.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[PS Paul]

Man, those loads look REALLY nice! Not too shabby, for sure. We've seen good and bad on the forum, especially with those who have problems with mold temperature when starting. In fact, mold temperature, followed by alloy temperature and gaps/voids/poor fillout, seems to be the number ONE issue most guys have when first casting. Honestly, even after doing it for all these years, each mold will be a law unto itself (just like each gun) and I still run into issues with the individual "personalities" displayed by different molds. In other words, they don't all behave in the same way!

So good work, welcome to the forum and GOOD first post/questions!
Paul

[Matthew Stahlecker]

I've been on the hunt for 45-70 Starline brass for about the last 4 months. We have a Cabela's in our town and a Sportsman's Warehouse along with 3 small independents. I have seen bags of 50 rounds of Remington and after seeing the price and comparing it to the tag on the empty bin of Starline brass, decided to wait for Starline...no luck yet. Thus using the Hornady brass out of desperation to see how my new creation shoots. I figure that with the shortages in .22, 9mm, 40, etc., the focus on the brass manufacturers is in those calibers. So, I will wait and watch on Starline and shoot what I can with the brass I've shot from Hornady. Thank you for the kind comments. I will try not to be a pest, but will be asking a bunch of questions about several calibers I am now playing with.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Matthew,

Just checked the Buffalo Arms web site and they say they are out of Starline 45/70 brass, but back orders are OK.

I'd guess that means they have a commitment from Starline and a possible shipping date. Maybe you should get your name in the pot.

The reason I do not like to deal directly with Starline - many folk do - is because on the large group buy I was a part of, Starline gave ship dates 2 or 3 times over a period of some months and never came through plus there was almost zero communication from them.

I doubt that is a problem with the bigger retailers who are steady customers for the Starline products, so that is the reason I choose to NOT deal directly with the company.

Great product, just not very good with repeatedly coming through on promised ship dates which they didn't meet and no communications. Just left a lot of people with their money on the line waiting for months before the order was finally completed.

I have had good results from Buffalo Arms on a number of orders.

As is said, first impressions are not always correct, but they are first impressions.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[44man]

Short enough that they cause some folk problems for what ever reason, and short enough to required die adjustment between standard brass and the gummy nose brass.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I use shim washers under dies for crimp changes. Never have to adjust a die.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

44man,

That is the same system RCBS uses to allow the .38/.357 and .44 Special/.44 mag dies to be used without needing to change die adjustments with the differing length cases.

CDOC

[mroliver77]

Mathew,
I dont know the difference in length tween your brass and standard but wanted to tell you that you can load to the correct over all length and leave more boolit sticking out of the case. Sometimes you can crimp in a lube groove and that is fine as long as your rifle will feed, chamber and eject the rounds.You can even go over the book OAL IF the gun will feed, chamber and eject the ammo. Remember those you made up have less internal capacity than a "normal" round and will be higher pressured if you use same charge as in book length cases.

I always make up "dummy" rounds with no powder or live primer for tweeking a round.

My 38-55 has an old long chamber. I use Win brass that is shorter than my chamber with no problems. I have also blown out 30-30 cases and used them and they are even shorter. For the lower pressures we use in these calibers I believe while not optimal it is still safe to use these shorter cases until we get Starline. And, I rate Starline a 10 outta 10!
J

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

mroliver77 is correct until it comes crimp time, in which there needs to be a die adjustment.

44man's solution of shims, means you set the dies for the shorter cases, and use the shims to add length before crimping the standard cases.

This Ol'Coot still thinks that Hornady did less then their normal good job at the design table during this product development.

Some things just weren't ment to be if it means compromising.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[mroliver77]

mroliver77 is correct until it comes crimp time, in which there needs to be a die adjustment.

This Ol'Coot still thinks that Hornady did less then their normal good job at the design table during this product development.

Some things just weren't ment to be if it means compromising.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I guess I didn't explain it well enough. " I" knew I need to adjust to crimp the shorter cases. ')

I agree about the design flaw. We hashed it out before but I forget why they are shorter. Only loaded ammo I ever buy is milsurp stuff an .22rf for the kid.
J

[Wayne Smith]

Wanna have fun?? I loaded for a Trapdoor and the most accurate load was a thumb pressed boolit into an unsized case over a compressed load of Goex. Great for a single shot, may not survive in a magazine, but only a trial will tell. The boolit can't settle in because it's seated on the compressed BP. With no crimp it doesn't matter if the brass is shorter.

[Matthew Stahlecker]

Ok,I shot the rounds. I guess I'm not sensitive enough, although there was a difference between my cast reloads in 45-70 & the Hornady loads, it was minimal in my opinion. Watching how my AR-15 hits a 2x4 and how a 405 grain cast bullet DESTROYS a 2x4...priceless!! I did notice about 1/8" of the top of the brass stained black with powder flash and my accuracy was at best three inches. I assume that I need the bullet father into the barrel, from what I've read from you guys, correct?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Matthew,

There is something to be said as to the possible benefits of little to no bullet jump, but there are also a lot of rifles which are long throated which shoot just fine, and in fact small groups.

So, I think the group size is more likely the powder being used or the amount of powder.

It could be the bullet, but until you have spent time and components testing in small jumps of powder from one test group to another, you simply can't know.

Many times the difference between a good group and a poor one is a grain or less of powder.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Matthew Stahlecker]

Thank you, sir. I will play around with the powder amounts and see if I can tighten up my groups.

[blikseme300]

Weird thing with Hornady is that with the 444 Marlin they have both lengths of brass available but am unsure about 45-70. What I do with CB's in my big bore Marlins is to use taper crimp exclusively as the roll crimp was troublesome with the bigger & longer CB's I use. As for seating depth I always ensure that the boolit just touches the leade and this determines the COAL. With the shorter Hornady brass this looks odd but performance is just fine. I do use a custom M-die for relieving the brass diameter and use the TC die to nudge back the flaring after seating.

[mpmarty]

If you load to the normal OAL your cartridge capacity will be the same as a normal 45/70 round. Seating out to the 2.55 - 2.57" will be perfectly safe with normal loads. furthermore, the 1895 Marlin can handle way more pressure than some folks think it can. Look at Ranch Dogs data.

[aspangler]

I Shoot the Hornady brass in my nagant conversion. Try this load. 25Gr 2400 with yoke wonderwad over the powder. seat to standard length with the Lee 405 (that's what I use) then adjust the resizing die to one turn lower than where it touches the cast for a slight taper crimp. These chronograph at average 1450 fps with extreme spread of 16 fps. from 22 inch barrel. Try this , I think you will like it.